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nicholaschee
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New Aircraft Types & D Checks

Mon Jul 27, 2009 12:14 pm

Just wondering if the D-level check for a new aircraft type is any any different from that of a normal D-level check? Does the aircraft manufacturer play a more active role in the first D-level check? TIA  Smile

eg. First ever 777 D-check or A380 D-check in a couple of years..
 
saintsman
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RE: New Aircraft Types & D Checks

Mon Jul 27, 2009 6:53 pm

The D check schedule will be updated on a regular basis from new as and when things pop up.

Manufactures will want to know lots from the very first one though, because, for example, something that seems simple on paper may involve taking half the flight deck to bits just to gain access. You can't beat first hand experience to improve on things.
 
AirframeAS
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RE: New Aircraft Types & D Checks

Mon Jul 27, 2009 7:48 pm



Quoting Nicholaschee (Thread starter):
A380 D-check in a couple of years..

We won't be seeing the very first D check on any A380 for a quite a long time from now. Im guessing in 5-6 years will be the first D-1 check. The only way for a D to happen is that all of the required C's (On Airbus, I think it is C-1 through C-8[?]) need to be done before the first D happens. But then again, it depends on the airline's CAMP.
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
 
474218
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RE: New Aircraft Types & D Checks

Mon Jul 27, 2009 9:35 pm



Quoting Nicholaschee (Thread starter):
Does the aircraft manufacturer play a more active role in the first D-level check? TIA

Prior to retiring I worked in a manufactures (OEM) customer support organization. Several operators would have myself or one on my colleagues on-site during their D-level checks. In addition to providing technical advise we could speak directly to our engineering, manuals and spare parts departments over coming problems much faster.

The OEM can also provide an operator with the maintenance planning documents and the workcards for each level check. It was standard that the first time the work cards were used to have a manufactures rep. on-site to make any changes required.
 
nicholaschee
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RE: New Aircraft Types & D Checks

Tue Jul 28, 2009 1:41 am

How about duration wise? Probably longer of a new aircraft type I guess? Also, I would guess that the manpower available will be slightly more compared to subsequent D-Checks? Am I right?
 
474218
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RE: New Aircraft Types & D Checks

Tue Jul 28, 2009 1:52 am



Quoting Nicholaschee (Reply 4):
How about duration wise? Probably longer of a new aircraft type I guess? Also, I would guess that the manpower available will be slightly more compared to subsequent D-Checks? Am I right?

The older the aircraft the longer checks last. As the airframe ages more and more structural repairs are required. On an older airframe you have all the standard check items plus more structural repairs on each subsequent check.
 
411A
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RE: New Aircraft Types & D Checks

Thu Aug 27, 2009 3:39 am

CPCP also adds to the time required for aircraft heavy checks, and the older the airplane, generally, the longer it takes, as 474218 correctly points out.
Some aircraft maintenance programs do not require D checks, as the necessary work is divided into segmented C checks, and done on a rotating basis...which usually results in less down-time, overall.

SaudiArabian did their first in-house D check in 1982, on an L1011.
I was part of the crew designated to test fly the airplane. This flight was divided between check items for the airplane and...a PC check for two Captains.

When the aircraft returned to the parking bay, the (then) manitenance director nearly fainted when he looked at the tech log...Nil Defects Noted.
And, why not...TWA was in charge, at the time.
Absolutely superb maintenance.
 
Flighty
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RE: New Aircraft Types & D Checks

Thu Aug 27, 2009 4:34 am



Quoting 411A (Reply 6):
And, why not...TWA was in charge, at the time.
Absolutely superb maintenance.

Cool story. Recently, the D-checks of ATA's L-1011s was a thought provoking moment. It is amazing that they can still rebuild those birds. Would that mean those birds are still very airworthy today? What are some of the biggest D-check jobs ever done? Can an aircraft in bad condition become a winner after a D-check?
 
411A
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RE: New Aircraft Types & D Checks

Thu Aug 27, 2009 4:49 am



Quoting Flighty (Reply 7):
Cool story. Recently, the D-checks of ATA's L-1011s was a thought provoking moment. It is amazing that they can still rebuild those birds. Would that mean those birds are still very airworthy today? What are some of the biggest D-check jobs ever done? Can an aircraft in bad condition become a winner after a D-check?

This is really a question for 474218, as he is more up to date on maintenance info on the L1011....so I expect he willl answer shortly.

I must say, however, after viewing a D check on one, it was quite a job.
All windows out, floors up, S duct out...the whole nine yards.
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: New Aircraft Types & D Checks

Thu Aug 27, 2009 6:51 am



Quoting 411A (Reply 6):
Nil Defects Noted.

Amazing.Speaks highly of the Mx.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 7):
Can an aircraft in bad condition become a winner after a D-check

If the work is done as per requirement.Sure.

regds
MEL.
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
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TZTriStar500
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RE: New Aircraft Types & D Checks

Thu Aug 27, 2009 2:14 pm

Quoting Flighty (Reply 7):
Cool story. Recently, the D-checks of ATA's L-1011s was a thought provoking moment. It is amazing that they can still rebuild those birds. Would that mean those birds are still very airworthy today? What are some of the biggest D-check jobs ever done? Can an aircraft in bad condition become a winner after a D-check?

From my perspective, it was not that amazing. An airplane is an airplane except the L-1011 a rare bird with dwindling parts, engines, support at the time. I supported several ATA D checks from the engineering perspective at HAECO and the three most recent at GAMCO. The only major items were extensive corrosion repairs. I was also very concerned about possible for AMOC needs for any AD compliance inspections/modifications. Getting an AMOC for the L-1011 out of the FAA ATL ACO was next to impossible. Fortunately we dodged that bullet. One of the larger mods on the L-1011 during D checks were the rear spar web replacement. While a D check can "restore" an aircraft, it also upsets many systems and can cause some subsequent operational issues until they are ironed out. A D check is more of an extensive required inspection than a refurbishment or restoration.

The three ex-TZ L-1011s (N162-164AT) that we had at the end that also went through D checks are still airworthy provided they have their lower checks completed at the proper intervals and have all AD's complied with.

[Edited 2009-08-27 07:16:00]
35 years of American Trans Air/ATA Airlines, 1973-2008. A great little airline that will not be soon forgotten.
 
JRadier
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RE: New Aircraft Types & D Checks

Thu Aug 27, 2009 4:12 pm



Quoting Flighty (Reply 7):
Can an aircraft in bad condition become a winner after a D-check?

Absolutely. I know of one operator who flies their Fokker 50s to the max (and beyond compared to the CMP) and they are in pretty dismal condition when they come in for a heavy check and they look quite ok when they come out. I have seen the photo's and the change is incredible! Not to worry, the chance you will fly on those birds is fairly non-existent!
 
AirframeAS
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RE: New Aircraft Types & D Checks

Thu Aug 27, 2009 6:09 pm



Quoting 474218 (Reply 5):
The older the aircraft the longer checks last. As the airframe ages more and more structural repairs are required. On an older airframe you have all the standard check items plus more structural repairs on each subsequent check.

 checkmark  Now you can see why FR phases out their aircraft before the first D check comes.
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
 
Tod
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RE: New Aircraft Types & D Checks

Thu Aug 27, 2009 9:19 pm



Quoting Nicholaschee (Reply 4):
How about duration wise?

Sourcing parts can destroy a schedule, especially when the owners are low on cash.

Tod
 
411A
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RE: New Aircraft Types & D Checks

Fri Aug 28, 2009 2:20 am



Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 9):
Amazing.Speaks highly of the Mx.

Yes, it most certainly does...these folks were the absolute best in the business, with L10 maintenance...bar none.
Delta?
Very good, as well.

I fly both ex-TWA and DAL aircraft now...good overall maintenance, even today.
ALL our guys are factory trained...and it shows!
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: New Aircraft Types & D Checks

Fri Aug 28, 2009 2:28 am



Quoting 411A (Reply 14):
Yes, it most certainly does...these folks were the absolute best in the business, with L10 maintenance...bar none.
Delta?
Very good, as well.

Its a combination of excellent professionals & good support system of the Airline I guess.
regds
MEL.
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
AirframeAS
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RE: New Aircraft Types & D Checks

Fri Aug 28, 2009 6:40 pm

Sometimes checks take longer than planned because of shortage of parts. That is where management sometimes get into a hissy fit. But these kinds of things happen and should always, always, always be planned and expected: include a 2-3 day buffer for stuff like this, among other things....
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
 
Tod
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RE: New Aircraft Types & D Checks

Fri Aug 28, 2009 7:00 pm



Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 16):
Sometimes checks take longer than planned because of shortage of parts. That is where management sometimes get into a hissy fit. But these kinds of things happen and should always, always, always be planned and expected: include a 2-3 day buffer for stuff like this, among other things....

I've seen critical pieces of 744 structure take months to procure.

Tod
 
AirframeAS
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RE: New Aircraft Types & D Checks

Fri Aug 28, 2009 7:26 pm



Quoting Tod (Reply 17):
I've seen critical pieces of 744 structure take months to procure.

That's gotta suck. Was management fumed over that?
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
 
Tod
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RE: New Aircraft Types & D Checks

Fri Aug 28, 2009 7:56 pm



Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 18):
Was management fumed over that?

Just about killed the small airline, not to mention the company hired to do a complete interior reconfig at the same time. The third party mod center wasn't happy to get a hanger queen either. Plenty-o-drama.
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: New Aircraft Types & D Checks

Sat Aug 29, 2009 12:09 am



Quoting Tod (Reply 17):
I've seen critical pieces of 744 structure take months to procure.

Are you referring to aircraft needing to fly.....Thats a crime,letting an Airworthy Aircraft await spares for so long.I would think a week should be reasonable to complete a job.
regds
MEL.
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
EMBQA
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RE: New Aircraft Types & D Checks

Sat Aug 29, 2009 1:47 am



Quoting Nicholaschee (Thread starter):

On a D-check level I'd say no. The aircraft has been in service for several years by then. Now on the first C-check.. yes. A few years ago I was part of the very first people to perform a C-check inspection on a new aircraft type and we had manufacture support on hand for that along with several of the subcontractors for componants
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
 
tdscanuck
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RE: New Aircraft Types & D Checks

Sat Aug 29, 2009 5:09 am



Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 20):
Are you referring to aircraft needing to fly.....Thats a crime,letting an Airworthy Aircraft await spares for so long.I would think a week should be reasonable to complete a job.

It really depends on the part. Some critical parts, like the pickel-fork fitting, are giant forged hunks of stuff. If you're unlucky enough to catch a time when nobody's got a spare they're willing to part with, you're talking a couple of months just to get the forging made, then it's got to be machined, inspected, blah, blah, blah.

Big parts who's total run may be 1000 over ~30 years can't be produced in a week.

Tom.
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: New Aircraft Types & D Checks

Sat Aug 29, 2009 12:53 pm



Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 22):
you're talking a couple of months just to get the forging made, then it's got to be machined, inspected,

Can an Airline take that loss.
regds
MEL.
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
tdscanuck
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RE: New Aircraft Types & D Checks

Sat Aug 29, 2009 5:05 pm



Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 23):
Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 22):
you're talking a couple of months just to get the forging made, then it's got to be machined, inspected,

Can an Airline take that loss.

Depends on the airline...I'm sure a few have gone down over this type of problem, but I would suspect they more commonly get backed into a corner where they're willing to shell out enough money to get a spare from someone else, or they work a deal with the OEM to help, or something like that.

Tom.
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: New Aircraft Types & D Checks

Sun Aug 30, 2009 5:18 am



Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 24):
Depends on the airline...I'm sure a few have gone down over this type of problem,

If the Airline has their own hangar & extra aircraft it can handle the delay....A smaller fleet airline would struggle with AOG Aircraft & mounting hangar rentals for usage.

regds
MEL.
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)

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