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Luftfahrer
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Bermuda (BDA/TXKF) And Alternate Airports

Wed Jul 29, 2009 5:36 pm

Hi,

the nearest possible diversion airports for Bermuda (BDA) are located at the US East Coast (e.g. JFK, BOS, ACY) and are approximately 650 nautical miles away.
So my question is whether airlines operating into this particular airport are taking extra fuel in their tanks in order to be able to make it back to the States if they can't land at BDA due to bad weather conditions for example. I know weather above the Atlantic can be tough but I don't know if it affects the islands of Bermuda directly. Any insight into real world operations is appreciated.

[Edited 2009-07-29 10:37:19]
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wilco737
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RE: Bermuda (BDA/TXKF) And Alternate Airports

Wed Jul 29, 2009 5:45 pm



Quoting Luftfahrer (Thread starter):
So my question is whether airlines operating into this particular airport are taking extra fuel in their tanks in order to be able to make it back to the States if they can't land at BDA due to bad weather conditions for example. I know weather above the Atlantic can be tough but I don't know if it affects the islands of Bermuda directly. Any insight into real world operations is appreciated.

We have a so called 'isolated airport' procedure. You need to have a good weather forecast for a specific period of time before and after your arrival time. The weather must be good enough during that period. Addionally you don't have an alternate, as there is no alternate. You take 2 hours of extra fuel with you to compensate any other problems.
I don't know what type of airplanes are used to BDA, but if they can carry enough fuel to return to the Coast of US, then I guess you should do it  Smile

wilco737
 
Luftfahrer
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RE: Bermuda (BDA/TXKF) And Alternate Airports

Wed Jul 29, 2009 5:52 pm

Thanks for the quick answer.
BDA is served by A32S and B757 aircraft which come in from the East Coast for the most part, so they should be able to take enough fuel for returning there if needed. I plan to fly to Bermuda in Flight Simulator so I wanted to get an idea how flight preparations for such remote airports are done in real world  Smile
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wilco737
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RE: Bermuda (BDA/TXKF) And Alternate Airports

Wed Jul 29, 2009 5:57 pm

As the flight itself isn't too long, it shouldn't be a problem. 650NM from the coast is not really too far away. So flight to BDA and back is 1500NM. Should be possible with the 32S and easy with the 752.
Enjoy your simulated flight  Smile

wilco737
 
Luftfahrer
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RE: Bermuda (BDA/TXKF) And Alternate Airports

Wed Jul 29, 2009 6:05 pm



Quoting WILCO737 (Reply 3):
Enjoy your simulated flight

Will do  Smile Yes, it really isn't too far away. Thanks again for your professional input.
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DescendVia
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RE: Bermuda (BDA/TXKF) And Alternate Airports

Wed Jul 29, 2009 7:54 pm

Quoting Luftfahrer (Reply 2):
BDA is served by A32S and B757 aircraft which come in from the East Coast for the most part, so they should be able to take enough fuel for returning there if needed.

On our ops page for BDA, the minimum arrival fuel allowed is 2:30 min. This in theory allows the flight to fly the 2 hours back to ORF and have a 30 minute reserve.

The FOM page on BDA is a neat one I will say that. It allows the use of the 2 hour rule (as stated by WILCO) if the weather is planned to be at or above the landing minimums (ILS Y or Z 30 would be the smartest one to use). The flight goes without 10% burn or FAR RSV if the 2hr. rule is used. The words "2 hr rule" or the such need to be listed where the alternate would be on the release and the HOLD and ALTN need to stay above the MAF or dispatch coordination is required. If you can't use the 2 hr rule, then you list an alternate and use the 10% burn.

Were given the value of 12,100 pounds which would equal the legal MAF for an A320 and the default burn back to ORF would be 9,300 pounds. Obviously those will change depending on the weather conditions.

[Edited 2009-07-29 13:05:49]
 
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tb727
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RE: Bermuda (BDA/TXKF) And Alternate Airports

Thu Jul 30, 2009 12:06 am

I used to fly 20 series Learjets out there, if the weather was bad enough to need an alternate, we wouldn't go because we couldn't carry enough fuel, only about 3+30 total. If we could take a 30 series we could launch out of Detroit and still be able to go to our alternate if we couldn't make it in at TXKF.

It was always nice there though for me and I still have never been there during the day. It's pretty eerie going in there at night when you start seeing a glow out there in the water 100+ miles out.
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Cubsrule
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RE: Bermuda (BDA/TXKF) And Alternate Airports

Thu Jul 30, 2009 12:31 am



Quoting WILCO737 (Reply 3):
As the flight itself isn't too long, it shouldn't be a problem. 650NM from the coast is not really too far away.

 checkmark The more interesting question might be the situation like Tb727 is talking about, where the aircraft isn't capable of making it back to the diversion airport. The only commercial flight I can think of where this is an issue is SCL-IPC on LA.
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tb727
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RE: Bermuda (BDA/TXKF) And Alternate Airports

Thu Jul 30, 2009 1:27 am

Yeah, it HAS to be VFR to take a 20-series Learjet or Falcon 20 out there for us. Nothing wrong with that, it makes life pretty easy!
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BMI727
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RE: Bermuda (BDA/TXKF) And Alternate Airports

Thu Jul 30, 2009 9:00 am



Quoting WILCO737 (Reply 1):
You take 2 hours of extra fuel with you to compensate any other problems.

I have no hard specifics, but I would guess that, as is the case with some other isolated airports, fuel in Bermuda may be quite expensive and airlines would want to tanker some anyway.
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brains
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RE: Bermuda (BDA/TXKF) And Alternate Airports

Fri Jul 31, 2009 3:51 am

There really is no good alternate for Bermuda, so in the US, if operated under part 121 (scheduled) we're required to carry enough fuel to get to Bermuda and than fly 2 additional hrs at normal cruise speed. In the the regulation is Fuel Required for a Flag Flight with No Authorized Alternate (in FAR 121.645). I'm not sure but some US carriers may have an exemption to operate this as a domestic flight, but I wouldn't count on it. Sounds about the same as Wilco in Germany.
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DescendVia
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RE: Bermuda (BDA/TXKF) And Alternate Airports

Fri Jul 31, 2009 6:31 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 9):

I have no hard specifics, but I would guess that, as is the case with some other isolated airports, fuel in Bermuda may be quite expensive and airlines would want to tanker some anyway.

They usually can't tanker fuel in but as I said, the MAF for BDA for us is 2:30 minutes (2hr rule and the 30 min. FAR RSV). That said you can easily have a good 80% of the legal fuel to go back to the 48 if you land under perfect conditions.

Quoting Brains (Reply 10):

Just what I said   but yeah the OP SEPC fuel stuff we have can't be used. Has to be the 2hr rule or 10% and an alternate under flag rules.

[Edited 2009-07-31 11:36:30]
 
jetstar
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RE: Bermuda (BDA/TXKF) And Alternate Airports

Fri Jul 31, 2009 8:12 pm



Quoting Brains (Reply 10):
There really is no good alternate for Bermuda,

I flew a couple of trips from HPN to BDA in the JetStar, and our filed alternate was Wilmington, NC, which is the closest airport to BDA

The problem with BDA is there is only one runway there, and the worse case scenario was the airplane in front of us breaking down on the runway forcing us to divert.

With full tanks out of HPN, we just had enough fuel for an approach to BDA and diverting to ILM, but if we had to do any holding to get into ILM, we would have been landing with all four low fuel tank warning lights on.

JetStar
 
brains
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RE: Bermuda (BDA/TXKF) And Alternate Airports

Sun Aug 02, 2009 5:12 am

Hah! Sorry Descend....I'm stepping on toes  Wink I guess I didn't read your post close enough, or else I wouldn't have spit out the same answer.
Brains
 
DescendVia
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RE: Bermuda (BDA/TXKF) And Alternate Airports

Sun Aug 02, 2009 2:02 pm



Quoting Brains (Reply 13):

No worries pal never hurts to have more info!
 
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longhauler
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RE: Bermuda (BDA/TXKF) And Alternate Airports

Sun Aug 02, 2009 2:34 pm

We carry an alternate on all of our flights to BDA. Either JFK or ORF.

Once, I even had a YHZ alternate as the west coast of the US was below minima. Other than the usual crosswind near limits, weather was great at BDA so little fuel uplift was required for the return.
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atct
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RE: Bermuda (BDA/TXKF) And Alternate Airports

Sun Aug 02, 2009 4:56 pm

My airline always had JFK or ORF as the alternates for BDA when required.

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