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c5load
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Pilots Dual Qualified On Family-type Aircraft?

Sun Aug 09, 2009 9:07 pm

I was wondering if pilots are qualified on all a/c of the same family. For example, the A319/20/21 a/c are very similar except for length, same for the 767 family, 777 family, etc.
 
Goldenshield
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RE: Pilots Dual Qualified On Family-type Aircraft?

Sun Aug 09, 2009 9:15 pm

Basically, each type will have its own type rating, and any variation in it will require differences training for each sub-type.

For example:

DC-9 rated pilots can fly the DC-9-10/15/20/30/40/50/8x. I'm not too sure on the MD-90, though.

The differences training also goes for anyone that works with the different sub-types, such as dispatchers, flight attendants, rampers, fuelers, and mechanics.
 
durangomac
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RE: Pilots Dual Qualified On Family-type Aircraft?

Sun Aug 09, 2009 9:16 pm

OO pilots on CRJ's are qualified for 200, 700 & 900.
On any day they could actually fly all three in a single day.
 
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LAXintl
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RE: Pilots Dual Qualified On Family-type Aircraft?

Sun Aug 09, 2009 9:17 pm

Yes. Most carriers have common 318-319-320-321 crews, and Airbus even offers a Mixed Fleet Flying concept allowing carriers to use same crews for the larger 330-340 also simultaneously with the smaller siblings.

For Boeing, all 737s are common at most carriers, while 757-767s also at most.
 
c5load
Topic Author
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RE: Pilots Dual Qualified On Family-type Aircraft?

Sun Aug 09, 2009 9:30 pm

What about the 777 family? Is the 77L a major difference from the -200, -300?
 
lowrider
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RE: Pilots Dual Qualified On Family-type Aircraft?

Sun Aug 09, 2009 9:34 pm



Quoting C5LOAD (Reply 4):
Is the 77L a major difference from the -200, -300?

No.

I have heard a rumor that the 747-8 will be a common type with the 400. All that will be required is a brief ground school to cover some systems differences.
 
DescendVia
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RE: Pilots Dual Qualified On Family-type Aircraft?

Mon Aug 10, 2009 12:36 am



Quoting Lowrider (Reply 5):

I have heard a rumor that the 747-8 will be a common type with the 400.

I heard something like that. I guess the cockpit will be exactly the same except probably for the integrated ACARS/CPDLC/EICAS that is on the 777 and a really beefed up CDU/FMS that will be on the 787.

Just my guess, so just about a day or 2 of ground school which is similar to what is required for classic guppy drivers wanting to get on the NG.
 
AAR90
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RE: Pilots Dual Qualified On Family-type Aircraft?

Mon Aug 10, 2009 3:02 am



Quoting Goldenshield (Reply 1):
DC-9 rated pilots can fly the DC-9-10/15/20/30/40/50/8x. I'm not too sure on the MD-90, though.

Yes. MD90 is officially a DC-9-90. For my initial Captain upgrade training I had to complete AA's DC9 course [4-weeks] at GSW, then a week of "differences training" [including simulators] at MD's facility in LGB. My FAA type rating is: DC9.
 
pilotpip
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RE: Pilots Dual Qualified On Family-type Aircraft?

Mon Aug 10, 2009 8:29 pm

For what it's worth, I fly the 170-100 and 170-200. Or, as the marketing gurus have designated 170 and 175. The type for this aircraft also includes the 190 family so if we had them on my certificate I could fly it with some differences training (190 has an overwing exit so we would have to demonstrate operation of it like we do with the cabin doors).

When we got the 175s the FAA approved an online "differences course". The only real difference between the two is that the 175 is longer and heavier. You have to be a bit more mindful of this when rotating and flaring. You also notice the extra weight when it's climbing but it's not bad. Internally the only difference is that there is no ADF installed on the 175s and the cockpit door has a different latch.
 
Goldenshield
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RE: Pilots Dual Qualified On Family-type Aircraft?

Mon Aug 10, 2009 10:06 pm



Quoting Pilotpip (Reply 8):
Internally the only difference is that there is no ADF installed on the 175s

Whatever will you do when you can't listen to western music and baseball?  duck 
 
pilotpip
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RE: Pilots Dual Qualified On Family-type Aircraft?

Mon Aug 10, 2009 10:14 pm

I don't know what you are talking about...
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: Pilots Dual Qualified On Family-type Aircraft?

Mon Aug 10, 2009 11:28 pm



Quoting AAR90 (Reply 7):
Yes. MD90 is officially a DC-9-90.

No actually the MD-90 is an MD-90 on the type cert. The last DC-9 is the DC-9-87, for marketing purposes MD-87.
 
AAR90
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RE: Pilots Dual Qualified On Family-type Aircraft?

Tue Aug 11, 2009 4:08 pm



Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 11):
oting AAR90 (Reply 7):
Yes. MD90 is officially a DC-9-90.

No actually the MD-90 is an MD-90 on the type cert. The last DC-9 is the DC-9-87, for marketing purposes MD-87.

You might have to explain that to the FAA. My FAA license lists my type ratings as DC9, B737, B757/767. Since it was my initial CA upgrade, the FAA required the final approval to be done by an actual FAA Inspector [FAA employee] and not a FAA "designee." The type rating he gave me was (is) DC9.
 
PGNCS
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RE: Pilots Dual Qualified On Family-type Aircraft?

Wed Aug 12, 2009 4:42 pm

Actually Starlionblue is right. For those interested here is some background information on MD-90 certification from the FAA, starting on page six.

http://www.faa.gov/aircraft/air_cert...e/Edition11-20/media/Edition19.pdf
 
AAR90
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RE: Pilots Dual Qualified On Family-type Aircraft?

Thu Aug 13, 2009 5:00 am



Quoting PGNCS (Reply 13):
Actually Starlionblue is right. For those interested here is some background information on MD-90 certification from the FAA, starting on page six.

http://www.faa.gov/aircraft/air_cert...9.pdf

Nice try, but you reference a "PR" publication, not an official FAA document. But even that publication says:
Also significant was the approval of the MD-90 with the same pilot type rating as the MD-80. This was an important program objective in order to minimize flight crew training and allow crews to transition easily from their MD-80 aircraft.

There has never been an MD-80 type rating. Pilots flying MD-80 series aircraft have always received a "DC-9 type rating." So the publication is saying what is true... the MD-90 series planes have a DC-9 type rating.

An offical document source would be: FAA Adv.Cir. 61-89E.
Page 24 lists Boeing aircraft with the following:

Model Designation: DC-9, DC-9-50, C-9, DC-9-80, MD-80, MD-88, MD-90, MD-90(EFD)
Prior Designation: Douglas DC-9
Current Designation: DC-9


ALL models of the DC-9, including MD-80/90 series, have a common type rating: DC-9.

Do I need to scan in my FAA license as proof?

AAR90
AA=AmericanAirlines
R90=MD90 pilot bid status
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: Pilots Dual Qualified On Family-type Aircraft?

Thu Aug 13, 2009 7:10 am

Ah. So the model designation differs but the type rating is the same. Interesting.
 
hangarnica
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RE: Pilots Dual Qualified On Family-type Aircraft?

Thu Jan 28, 2010 5:39 pm

At least in the USA. In other countries, the type rating may be split up as seen necessary by the regulatory authority. For example, Canada issues a DC-9 Type Rating for the traditional DC-9 series, while the MD-80 Type Rating covers the MD-80/81/82/83/87/88
 
KELPkid
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RE: Pilots Dual Qualified On Family-type Aircraft?

Fri Jan 29, 2010 1:29 am



Quoting Hangarnica (Reply 16):
For example, Canada issues a DC-9 Type Rating for the traditional DC-9 series, while the MD-80 Type Rating covers the MD-80/81/82/83/87/88

Who's flying MD-80's up North?  
 
PGNCS
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RE: Pilots Dual Qualified On Family-type Aircraft?

Fri Jan 29, 2010 1:41 am



Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 11):
Quoting AAR90 (Reply 7):
Yes. MD90 is officially a DC-9-90.

No actually the MD-90 is an MD-90 on the type cert. The last DC-9 is the DC-9-87, for marketing purposes MD-87.

Yes, you are correct, Starlionblue, per FAA Type Certificate Data Sheet No. A6WE. The type certificate changes nomenclature at the MD-88; the MD-90-30 is the official designation for the aircraft. Here is the actual type certificate data sheet.

http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Gu...76886256b1400759d25/$FILE/A6WE.pdf

That's why I said this:

Quoting PGNCS (Reply 13):
Actually Starlionblue is right. For those interested here is some background information on MD-90 certification from the FAA, starting on page six.

http://www.faa.gov/aircraft/air_cert...9.pdf

Here's some more:

http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory...f0ac486256df200643f0b?OpenDocument

http://www.ameronglobal.com/agps/fil...asa_im_a_s_01852_stc_st00952la.pdf

Quoting AAR90 (Reply 14):


Quoting PGNCS (Reply 13):
Actually Starlionblue is right. For those interested here is some background information on MD-90 certification from the FAA, starting on page six.

http://www.faa.gov/aircraft/air_cert...9.pdf

Nice try, but you reference a "PR" publication, not an official FAA document. But even that publication says:
Also significant was the approval of the MD-90 with the same pilot type rating as the MD-80. This was an important program objective in order to minimize flight crew training and allow crews to transition easily from their MD-80 aircraft.

There has never been an MD-80 type rating. Pilots flying MD-80 series aircraft have always received a "DC-9 type rating." So the publication is saying what is true... the MD-90 series planes have a DC-9 type rating.

An offical document source would be: FAA Adv.Cir. 61-89E.
Page 24 lists Boeing aircraft with the following:

Model Designation: DC-9, DC-9-50, C-9, DC-9-80, MD-80, MD-88, MD-90, MD-90(EFD)
Prior Designation: Douglas DC-9
Current Designation: DC-9

ALL models of the DC-9, including MD-80/90 series, have a common type rating: DC-9.

Do I need to scan in my FAA license as proof?

AAR90
AA=AmericanAirlines
R90=MD90 pilot bid status

You don't need to scan your license, nor do I need to scan mine, which also has a DC-9 type rating, and which has allowed me to fly the MD-80 and MD-90 as PIC for years; I never claimed otherwise. You are apparently under the impression that the type rating designation on your pilot certificate has to match the FAA type certificate. It does not. The very first paragraph of the AC you cited explains that the entire document deals with nomenclature on pilot certificates, not manufacturer type certificates.

Since you were so quick to accuse me of a "nice try" in an effort to use a "PR" publication to obfuscate the issue, please feel free to consult with the actual type certificate, which I have thoughtfully provided. The MD-90 is near the end.

http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Gu...76886256b1400759d25/$FILE/A6WE.pdf

You will note no references to DC-9-88 or DC-9-90, because those are not the designations of any aircraft built under type certificate A6WE, which includes every DC-9 to every 717 ever built. That's why when I went to fly an MD-90 the paperwork in the cockpit and the identifier plate always read "MD-90-30."

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 15):
Ah. So the model designation differs but the type rating is the same. Interesting.

The type rating "DC-9" allows pilots to fly any model from the DC-9-10 to the 717, although extensive differences training exists between the models. The Advisory Circular (61-89e) that governs this is specific to pilot certificate designations to standardize nomenclature on the pilot certificates. The explanation is in the first paragraph of the AC. The type certificate data sheet may not always agree with the type rating on the certificate: there's no reason to require a separate type rating for the MD-88, MD-90, or 717 from the original DC-9 type rating.

http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory...6256ab600731af2/$FILE/Ac61-89e.pdf
 
hangarnica
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RE: Pilots Dual Qualified On Family-type Aircraft?

Sat May 01, 2010 12:29 pm

Sorry KELPKid to have missed responding til now.

To my best knowledge, there was only one operator of MD-80 series in Canada, namely a low-cost named Jetsgo which operated 14 MD-83's. They have been defunct since 2005.
 
KELPkid
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RE: Pilots Dual Qualified On Family-type Aircraft?

Sun May 02, 2010 4:45 am

Quoting hangarnica (Reply 19):

Thanks for getting back with me on that   Learn something new every day....
 
e38
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RE: Pilots Dual Qualified On Family-type Aircraft?

Tue May 04, 2010 7:44 pm

This is just a small clarification, and also quoting Goldenshield (Reply 1), "DC-9 rated pilots can fly the DC-9-10/15/20/30/40/50/8x. I'm not too sure on the MD-90, though."

There seems to be a little confusion between the specific type rating on a pilot's certificate and what that pilot is "qualified" to fly.

For example, Delta, of course, has MD-88s/MD-90s as well as the former Northwest DC9s and pilots who fly these all have the DC9 type rating on their certificates as discussed above.

However, DC9 pilots are not qualified on the MD-88s/MD-90s and the MD-88/MD-90 pilots are not qualified to fly the DC9s.
The former Northwest DC9 pilots are qualified to fly the DC9-30s, 40s, and 50s, while only MD-88 pilots based in Cincinnati and Salt Lake City (now Minneapolis) are qualified on the MD-90s as well. The MD-88 pilots based in Atlanta and New York do not receive MD-90 qualification training.

This was also true at TWA when they flew both DC9s and MD-80s as well as at Northwest (1986-2000) when they flew the DC-9s and (former Republic) MD-80s.

Even though the type rating on their certificates was the same (DC9), the aircraft qualification was separate and you could not intermix crews between the two types of aircraft

Simple, huh?
 
c5load
Topic Author
Posts: 344
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RE: Pilots Dual Qualified On Family-type Aircraft?

Tue May 04, 2010 9:09 pm

Quoting e38 (Reply 21):
However, DC9 pilots are not qualified on the MD-88s/MD-90s and the MD-88/MD-90 pilots are not qualified to fly the DC9s.

Can they, and if they can, will DL attempt to cross train their DC-9/MD88 pilots to be able to fly either one at any given time. Besides a few cockpit differences and a small size difference, they are the same airplane.
 
e38
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RE: Pilots Dual Qualified On Family-type Aircraft?

Wed May 05, 2010 2:38 am

c5load (Thread Starter), with reference to your first question,
"Can they, and if they can, will DL attempt to cross train their DC-9/MD88 pilots . . . "

The short answer is, "YES," and "PROBABLY NOT." However . . . (there's always a "however," isn't there?)

let me give you some numbers and remember the "economics" of the business of running an airline.

(All numbers are approximate)

When Delta retires the DC9-30 and DC9-40 series aircraft next autumn, they will have around 34 DC9-50 aircraft remaining in the fleet with no scheduled retirement date for those aircraft.
There will also be about 117 MD-88 aircraft and at least 16 MD-90 aircraft, with more MD-90s on the way for a total of at least 167 DC-9/MD-88/MD-90 aircraft.

Now crews. With that number of aircraft, I think there are around 500 DC-9 pilots and 1500 MD-88/MD-90 pilots for a total of at least 2,000 pilots.

So, yes, you can cross train both DC9 and MD-88/MD-90 pilots to fly the other type of aircraft, and over the long term, it would be cost effective to have a consolidated fleet (less training costs, greater crew scheduling flexibility). However, there would be considerable short term training costs associated with that number of pilots. Also, consider simulator availability. Right now, there is probably quite a bit of simulator time available since most training is annual recurrent training. But, if Delta decided to begin hiring again, new hire training into the DC9 or MD-88/MD-90 would consume most of the available training resources. So, the company is probably better off not committing to a DC-9/MD-88/MD-90 cross training program until they have a better grasp of future staffing requirements, which of course, is based on the economy.

And, as I mentioned previously, Delta found it appropriate not to qualify all MD-88 crews in the MD-90--only those MD-88 crews based in Salt Lake City and Cincinnati. From a historical perspective, when Delta first acquired the MD-90, only the DFW-based MD-88 crews received the MD-90 training. When the DFW pilot base closed in 2005, they began qualifying the SLC and CVG MD-88 crews to fly the MD-90.

Now, just to address your follow-on comment, "Besides a few cockpit differences and a small size difference, they are the same airplane."

That is generally correct, with most of those differences being cockpit avionics. Remember, the DC-9s are all 1960s-1970s technology (all round dials/instruments and VOR navigation) while the MD-88s/MD-90s have Flight Management Systems with RNAV capability.

Your next question might be, "Could you upgrade the DC9s to have the same avionics as the MD-88s/MD-90s? Maybe--dependeing on whether all the new avionics would interface properly with other aircraft systems. But, again that would be an enormous investment. While it may be beneficial to do so over the "long term," right now, the airlines are concerned with short term survival (particularly with fuel prices) so such an investment would probably not occur for a while.

In summary, even though Delta COULD qualify DC-9 and MD-88/MD-90 pilots to fly each type of equipment, the current economic situation would probably dictate that they remain separate qualifications until things improve financially.

e38

[Edited 2010-05-04 19:56:32]

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