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propilot83
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Tri-Star No. 2 Engine Reverser Question

Sat Dec 12, 2009 6:23 am

I've noticed that on the L-1011, DC-10, and MD-11's the number 2 engine that sits atop near the tail section of the plane does not have a thrust reverser mechanism. Does the expert on this know why Boeing, Lockheed, and Douglas did not design to have a thrust reverser engine on the number 2 engine on the Tri-Star jets and only on the number 1 and 3 engines? As far as I know, I've never seen engine number 2's cowling splitting open during reverse thrust.
 
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Jetlagged
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RE: Tri-Star No. 2 Engine Reverser Question

Sat Dec 12, 2009 7:16 am

All have thrust reversers on all three engines.


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n901wa
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RE: Tri-Star No. 2 Engine Reverser Question

Sat Dec 12, 2009 9:59 pm

One of my few pet peeves on the L-1011. Nbr 2 eng T/R  Smile Its there and the Drive cable knew when it was raining or cold, because it would birdcage in the tube, and wouldn't move. Servicing the drive motor wasn't fun in the rain either  Smile The Other thing is on the RB-211 the T/R is part of the engine, so when you changed the engine, you had to set up the Cascades in the reversers. Most of the spares we had were set as a wing engine. The MD-11 and DC-10 wasen't that bad. Never had a problem with them.
 
474218
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RE: Tri-Star No. 2 Engine Reverser Question

Sat Dec 12, 2009 10:21 pm



Quoting N901WA (Reply 2):
The Other thing is on the RB-211 the T/R is part of the engine, so when you changed the engine, you had to set up the Cascades in the reversers.

I was easy to determine when the No. 1 or 3 engine cascade arrangement was used on the No. 2 engine. The lower inboard access doors on the horizontal stabilizer would delaminate after only a few flights.
 
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propilot83
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RE: Tri-Star No. 2 Engine Reverser Question

Sun Dec 13, 2009 7:16 am

Great thing to know that the number 2 engine does have a thrust reverser, because I somehow missed seeing it being deployed on some airliners landing while I was watching it on tv as they touched down, pretty bizzar how I missed number 2 not being deployed during reverse thrust on landing because I never saw the engine cowling split open at the rear end  Confused but I now believe it does have a thrust reverser according to the photos as proof!  Cool
 
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n901wa
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RE: Tri-Star No. 2 Engine Reverser Question

Sun Dec 13, 2009 7:44 am

For 474218. Yea, Those Cascades were a Pain. Swapping them around and then you had to pull the Blanking Plates off the old engine. Then you get it together and the Nut Plates spun, so you had to replace them. That's ok I still Love the 1011  Smile
I just noticed I worked on 2 of the airplaines in the Photo. Princiss Maxima was a regular at LAX and I worked a lot on 729.  Smile Good times.
 
Tristarsteve
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RE: Tri-Star No. 2 Engine Reverser Question

Sun Dec 13, 2009 9:37 am



Quoting Propilot83 (Reply 4):
Great thing to know that the number 2 engine does have a thrust reverser, because I somehow missed seeing it being deployed on some airliners landing while I was watching it on tv as they touched down, pretty bizzar how I missed number 2 not being deployed during reverse thrust on landing because I never saw the engine cowling split open

Well there might be a good explanation. The Thrust reverser on the Tristar was not the most reliable of beasts. This was a hangover from the original design which had a hotstream reverser as well. They removed the hotstream reverser in 1973, but kept the same airmotor. This had a bit too much torque, so when something hung up it just destroyed the drive cables (birdcaging). To fix this could take time!!, especially on a line station with poor access equipment. (Try loosening tri-wing screws on the air motor access panel, when hanging out of the bucket of a deicing truck)
So some airlines did not use the Nbr 2 reverser on line stations if that was possible.
 
411A
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RE: Tri-Star No. 2 Engine Reverser Question

Sun Dec 13, 2009 6:26 pm



Quoting TristarSteve (Reply 6):
Well there might be a good explanation. The Thrust reverser on the Tristar was not the most reliable of beasts.

In thirty years of flying the L1011 (and a couple more to go) I never had a number two thrust reverser fail, ever.

Wing engine?
Twice.
And, the reverse on the L1011 is VERY effective.
Just three months ago, I backed up two L1011's using thrust reverse. (due to the particular restricted parking arrangement)..worked quite well.
I never have heard of any particular complaints from maintenance folks, either...except for the aforementioned Teleflex drive cables.
 
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n901wa
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RE: Tri-Star No. 2 Engine Reverser Question

Mon Dec 14, 2009 12:17 am

Reply to 411A, I was wondering if you flew with 524's or 22b's. To me I remember having more stuck reversers on the 22b, but then again we hardly got the 500's and 250's with 524's in LAX at that time, and the 500 were on the International crew so got cleaned up on mel's quicker. I think you could not MEL a T/R into OGG due to the runway, but its been awhile  Smile
Im with TristarSteve. The were unreliable. Also for me the nbr 2 T/R would get stuck and would not stow, so since you were up there to crank it closed and you had to remove the birdcaged loop. You ended up fixing it  Smile unless you didn't have a part, but the cables were always instock.
 
411A
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RE: Tri-Star No. 2 Engine Reverser Question

Mon Dec 14, 2009 1:07 am



Quoting N901WA (Reply 8):
Reply to 411A, I was wondering if you flew with 524's or 22b's.

Flown them all, about equally.
No problems with -22B reversers...and I operate them in the middle east/Africa...plenty of sand.
Of course, all of our maintenance folks are either Lockheed or RollsRoyce factory trained...and yes, it makes a difference.
 
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n901wa
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RE: Tri-Star No. 2 Engine Reverser Question

Mon Dec 14, 2009 2:36 am

Reply to 411A. I am sorry if Offended you, I was just wondering what type of RB-211 you flew with. Due to the experience I had with them. Yes they didn't jam up that much but NBR 2 had more problems than 1 and 3 did. I workied on them on thru flights and overnights for years. As for the second line, I don't know why the training of Mechanics would make a difference. I went to Factory schools and Company Schools and find them both Great, but it didn't make up for a failed part.  Confused and nothing beats experence on the Job. I see it everyday I work  Smile
 
411A
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RE: Tri-Star No. 2 Engine Reverser Question

Mon Dec 14, 2009 6:44 am



Quoting N901WA (Reply 10):
I am sorry if Offended you

No offence taken, I just report what my experiences have been.
I just passed 30 years in Command on L1011 equipment and I find the airplane extremely reliable, thrust reverse included.
Of course, we have an advantage.
As we do charters, we carry at least two (usually three) mechanics with us everywhere, and the aft compartment is filled with spares.
Wednesday, I will fly an ex-DAL -250 on a ten hour sector, and I expect no problems, as usual.
Just the facts as I see them.
 
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n901wa
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RE: Tri-Star No. 2 Engine Reverser Question

Mon Dec 14, 2009 6:22 pm

A reply to 411A. You are so lucky  Smile I Mis the 1011. Can you do me a favor? Can you pat the ex-DAL bird Glaresheild for me. Glad to see it in good hands  Smile Have a good trip!
 
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DL_Mech
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RE: Tri-Star No. 2 Engine Reverser Question

Tue Dec 15, 2009 2:58 am



Quoting 411A (Reply 11):
Wednesday, I will fly an ex-DAL -250 on a ten hour sector

Tell DANA I said hi......I miss the TriStar, but I don't miss DANA.*




* DANA= Dual Autoland Not Available to those non TriStar folks.
This plane is built to withstand anything... except a bad pilot.

Former AMT on A220,A310,A319/20/21,A330,A350,B707,B717,B727,B737,B747,B757,B767,B777,DC-9,DC-10,L-1011,
MD-80/90,MD-11
 
9VSIO
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RE: Tri-Star No. 2 Engine Reverser Question

Wed Dec 23, 2009 8:31 am

hey, what about the dassault trijets? Does anyone here have any experience with them? Do they have reverse thrust avail?
Me: (Lining up on final) I shall now select an aiming point. || Instructor: Well, I hope it's the runway...
 
411A
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RE: Tri-Star No. 2 Engine Reverser Question

Thu Dec 24, 2009 7:46 am



Quoting Dl_mech (Reply 13):
Tell DANA I said hi......I miss the TriStar, but I don't miss DANA.*

DANA says a big hello....although, she is not always present, as she is only a part time resident.
 
2H4
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RE: Tri-Star No. 2 Engine Reverser Question

Thu Dec 24, 2009 3:58 pm



Quoting 9VSIO (Reply 14):
hey, what about the dassault trijets? Does anyone here have any experience with them? Do they have reverse thrust avail?

They do indeed:


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2H4
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9VSIO
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RE: Tri-Star No. 2 Engine Reverser Question

Thu Dec 24, 2009 4:54 pm

got a pic of the really big one (700X?) doing that? I had a quick look through the database and couldn't see one. Mind you, it was a *quick* look...
Me: (Lining up on final) I shall now select an aiming point. || Instructor: Well, I hope it's the runway...
 
2H4
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RE: Tri-Star No. 2 Engine Reverser Question

Thu Dec 24, 2009 5:04 pm



Quoting 9VSIO (Reply 17):
got a pic of the really big one (700X?) doing that?

The 7X....here you go:


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2H4
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jetstar
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RE: Tri-Star No. 2 Engine Reverser Question

Thu Dec 24, 2009 7:17 pm



Quoting 9VSIO (Reply 14):
hey, what about the dassault trijets? Does anyone here have any
experience with them? Do they have reverse thrust avail?

Just a point of interest, Dassault tri-jets only have one reverser, on the center or #2 engine, so asymmetrical thrust would not be a problem if the reverser failed to deploy.

On the posted Dassault pictures you can see the #2 reverser deployed.

JetStar
 
Western727
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RE: Tri-Star No. 2 Engine Reverser Question

Thu Dec 24, 2009 8:20 pm

The Tristar did also have clamshell-type TRs for the turbine portion of the exhaust in the very early days before the added weight rendered them unnecessary. I have a photo of it in one of my books on the Tristar though I cannot recall the title.

Some of you have seen photos of the L-1011s' RB211s on such early builds with two protusions sticking out from the turbine exhaust nacelle - those are the clamshell actuator housings, much like the JT8Ds on the DC-9/MD-80 and 732.
Jack @ AUS
 
Viscount724
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RE: Tri-Star No. 2 Engine Reverser Question

Fri Dec 25, 2009 1:25 am



Quoting Propilot83 (Reply 4):
Great thing to know that the number 2 engine does have a thrust reverser, because I somehow missed seeing it being deployed on some airliners landing

The Tu-154 has reversers on #1 and #3 only.


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movingtin
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RE: Tri-Star No. 2 Engine Reverser Question

Wed Dec 30, 2009 5:49 pm



Quoting 411A (Reply 9):
Flown them all, about equally.
No problems with -22B reversers...and I operate them in the middle east/Africa...plenty of sand.
Of course, all of our maintenance folks are either Lockheed or RollsRoyce factory trained...and yes, it makes a difference.

When a Delta line mechanic tells you the Reversers were unreliable- Believe it!
The insinuation of N901WA's lack of training is uncalled for also.

Delta operated more L10ll's than any other carrier, 50+ at one time. Most of these getting 4-5 cycles a day! LAX saw probably 10-15 a day, ATL 50 or more a day!
 
MD-90
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RE: Tri-Star No. 2 Engine Reverser Question

Thu Dec 31, 2009 1:14 am



Quoting 411A (Reply 7):
Just three months ago, I backed up two L1011's using thrust reverse. (due to the particular restricted parking arrangement)..worked quite well.

Might the L-1011 now be verified as the largest commercial aircraft to be backed up using thrust reverse? (excepting, of course, the C-17 and possibly the An-124)
 
Tristarsteve
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RE: Tri-Star No. 2 Engine Reverser Question

Thu Dec 31, 2009 10:26 am



Quoting Movingtin (Reply 22):
When a Delta line mechanic tells you the Reversers were unreliable- Believe it!

Today we have daily visits from a BA B767 with RB211 engines. About half the tech log write ups that need attention on a transit are thrust reversers. After a brief play, all I do is lock it out as I only have an hour. But it means climbing up in the bypass duct and manually locking the air supply valve (much easier than on an L1011!) and pinning the translating cowls.
 
movingtin
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RE: Tri-Star No. 2 Engine Reverser Question

Thu Dec 31, 2009 5:09 pm



Quoting TristarSteve (Reply 24):
But it means climbing up in the bypass duct and manually locking the air supply valve (much easier than on an L1011!) and pinning the translating cowls.

Never worked the 76 with RB's, But I do remember the L10ll was an automatic delay on a quick turn if you had to lock out the reverser. Nothing user friendly about that procedure.
 
Tristarsteve
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RE: Tri-Star No. 2 Engine Reverser Question

Thu Dec 31, 2009 5:47 pm



Quoting Movingtin (Reply 25):
But I do remember the L10ll was an automatic delay on a quick turn if you had to lock out the reverser. Nothing user friendly about that procedure.

Agreed. But it depends on the mod state of the reverser.
I worked on TriStars from the beginning. The original engines did not have lock pins on the sides of the reversers, you had to disconnect the teleflex drives from nbr 1 and 6 gearboxes and put a lock key in there! This was done inside the bypass duct. One of the RR owned lease engines was never modified, and we were still doing this in 1980.
The other excellent mod was to remove the triwing screws from the air motor access panel, and replace them with bolts. The RB211-524 has a hinged access panel here instead.
But the TriStar reverser was a trap. If teleflex drives between the gearboxes had sheared, and you didn't see them, you could lock it out, and it wasn't. BWIA had a reverser leave an engine on rotation from FRA 15 years ago because of this!
 
Western727
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RE: Tri-Star No. 2 Engine Reverser Question

Thu Dec 31, 2009 5:55 pm



Quoting 411A (Reply 7):
Just three months ago, I backed up two L1011's using thrust reverse.

Did you use only the #2 TR or did you use all three (or only #1 and #3)?

I ask because I was thinking about the risk of FOD, thus a (theoretical) desire to use only #2, though that would require a considerable amount of thrust, possibly creating a turbine overheat risk...though that's only a guess.
Jack @ AUS
 
411A
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RE: Tri-Star No. 2 Engine Reverser Question

Sat Jan 02, 2010 1:30 pm



Quoting Movingtin (Reply 22):
When a Delta line mechanic tells you the Reversers were unreliable- Believe it!
The insinuation of N901WA's lack of training is uncalled for also.



Absolute rubbish.
At one airline where I worked for over ten years flying the L1011, eight-ten cycles per day/per airplane were normal for the L1011 type, and few problems with thrust reversers were experienced.
IF DAL had these TR problems in abundant supply, it was either poor maintenance procedures or inadequate training for maintenance personnel.
 
movingtin
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RE: Tri-Star No. 2 Engine Reverser Question

Sat Jan 02, 2010 11:18 pm



Quoting 411A (Reply 28):
At one airline where I worked for over ten years flying the L1011, eight-ten cycles per day/per airplane were normal for the L1011 type, and few problems with thrust reversers were experienced.
IF DAL had these TR problems in abundant supply, it was either poor maintenance procedures or inadequate training for maintenance personnel

Obviously a pilot!! How dare I even question! It must have been poor maintenance.
 
411A
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RE: Tri-Star No. 2 Engine Reverser Question

Sun Jan 03, 2010 10:11 am



Quoting Western727 (Reply 27):
Did you use only the #2 TR or did you use all three (or only #1 and #3)?

All three engines in reverse are required...otherwise, it won't happen.
 
Western727
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RE: Tri-Star No. 2 Engine Reverser Question

Mon Jan 04, 2010 10:26 pm



Quoting 411A (Reply 30):
All three engines in reverse are required...otherwise, it won't happen.

...because the reverse thrust from two engines (or even one) on the Tristar is insufficient to push the jet back at MTOW, or...? Thanks in advance.
Jack @ AUS
 
411A
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RE: Tri-Star No. 2 Engine Reverser Question

Tue Jan 05, 2010 8:02 am



Quoting Western727 (Reply 31):
...because the reverse thrust from two engines (or even one) on the Tristar is insufficient to push the jet back at MTOW,

Yes, except...at MTOW, it is not possible.
390,000 pounds maximum, approximately.
 
AA737-823
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RE: Tri-Star No. 2 Engine Reverser Question

Sat Jan 09, 2010 11:21 am



Quoting 411A (Reply 28):
Absolute rubbish.



Quoting 411A (Reply 28):
it was either poor maintenance procedures or inadequate training for maintenance personnel.

Clearly. Because, goodness knows, operating an L-1011 out of humid Atlanta and operating them out of the world's least favorite sandbox must clearly by identical operations.  Yeah sure

Quoting Movingtin (Reply 29):
Obviously a pilot!!

Agreed. "Welcome aboard, ladies and gentlemen; for dinner, you'll be served a slice of my ego."
 
411A
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RE: Tri-Star No. 2 Engine Reverser Question

Mon Jan 11, 2010 2:34 pm



Quoting Movingtin (Reply 29):
It must have been poor maintenance.

Odds are, it was actually that.
When two or three operators of the same equipment are having few problems, and one operator experiences quite the opposite, the cause usually resides in either the operation or maintenance of said equipment.
 
movingtin
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RE: Tri-Star No. 2 Engine Reverser Question

Mon Jan 11, 2010 9:52 pm

You just don't get it do You??

Please explain? who's L10ll Operation even came close to Delta Air Lines?
Who were other airlines going to for their L10 work? especially near the end of the fleets life. where was Lockheed sending operaters for part support and rebuild?

I guess the Airline with poor maintenance!
 
411A
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RE: Tri-Star No. 2 Engine Reverser Question

Tue Jan 12, 2010 12:56 am



Quoting Movingtin (Reply 35):
You just don't get it do You??

I have flown for several L1011 operators, among them, SaudiArabian, SriLankan, Air Atlanta Icelandic, in additioin to a few others, and NONE to the best of my knowledge had much trouble with the thrust reverse on number two engine.
Thirty years operating the airplane for me...no problems.
If DAL had significant problems, I can only conclude that the fault was with the operator.
 
474218
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RE: Tri-Star No. 2 Engine Reverser Question

Tue Jan 12, 2010 1:32 am



Quoting Movingtin (Reply 35):
Who were other airlines going to for their L10 work? especially near the end of the fleets life. where was Lockheed sending operaters for part support and rebuild?

I am a little confused about you question? There were several overhaul and repair shops that specialized in repairing the L-1011, Marshall in the UK, GAMCO in Abu Dubai and HEACO in Hong Kong were three of the biggest. In addition, Delta, Eastern, Air Canada, TWA, TAP, British Airways and BWIA would do second party work from time to time. Lockheed never recommended one overhaul facility over the other. In fact Lockheed opened there own L-1011 overhaul facility in Tucson AZ, in the late 1980's. However, we in the L-1011 support center could not recommend them over any other facility. Where to take their TriStar was up to the operator.

My confusion comes when you ask who was Lockheed sending operators for part support and rebuild? Lockheed and its original suppliers (to the L-1011 production line) continue to this day to supply spare parts and overhaul/rebuilt their components.
 
411A
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RE: Tri-Star No. 2 Engine Reverser Question

Tue Jan 12, 2010 2:56 pm

I suspect the slight problem is, 474218, a few folks just don't have their ducks in a row, regarding the information about the L1011 type.

The phrase...'don't confuse me with facts, my mind is made up'....is the active scenario, in these circumstances.
 
PGNCS
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RE: Tri-Star No. 2 Engine Reverser Question

Sat Jan 16, 2010 8:14 pm



Quoting 411A (Reply 38):
I suspect the slight problem is, 474218, a few folks just don't have their ducks in a row, regarding the information about the L1011 type.

The phrase...'don't confuse me with facts, my mind is made up'....is the active scenario, in these circumstances.

I flew the L-1011 for a while and have to admit that I don't ever recall reversers being especially problematic.

I also recall the reversers being very effective, but no surprise there, as the Tristar certainly was (is) the Queen of the Sky!
 
474218
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Joined: Mon Oct 10, 2005 12:27 pm

RE: Tri-Star No. 2 Engine Reverser Question

Sat Jan 16, 2010 8:36 pm



Quoting 411A (Reply 38):
I suspect the slight problem is, 474218, a few folks just don't have their ducks in a row, regarding the information about the L1011 type.

The phrase...'don't confuse me with facts, my mind is made up'....is the active scenario, in these circumstances

Your telling me! I posted some information about a month ago, in another forum, that showed that L-1011 was cheaper to operate that the DC-10. Will all I got was people trying to discredit my information, but refused to post any information that contradicted it.
 
2H4
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RE: Tri-Star No. 2 Engine Reverser Question

Sat Jan 16, 2010 8:48 pm



Quoting 474218 (Reply 40):

For what it's worth, thanks for sticking around in spite of such individuals.  Smile
Intentionally Left Blank
 
411A
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RE: Tri-Star No. 2 Engine Reverser Question

Sat Jan 16, 2010 8:50 pm



Quoting 474218 (Reply 40):
Your telling me! I posted some information about a month ago, in another forum, that showed that L-1011 was cheaper to operate that the DC-10. Will all I got was people trying to discredit my information, but refused to post any information that contradicted it.

Quite typical, I'm afraid, from 'know-it-alls'...who don't.
Makes me LOL.

Fuel alone places the DC-10 about 12% more expensive to operate.
 
474218
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RE: Tri-Star No. 2 Engine Reverser Question

Sat Jan 16, 2010 9:29 pm



Quoting 2H4 (Reply 41):
For what it's worth, thanks for sticking around in spite of such individuals.

I am sticking around for your next "Name The Plane". I have been saving some prizes for you to give away.
 
MD-90
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RE: Tri-Star No. 2 Engine Reverser Question

Sun Jan 17, 2010 1:23 am



Quoting 411A (Reply 42):
Fuel alone places the DC-10 about 12% more expensive to operate.

Ouch, that's a big delta in fuel costs.
 
411A
Posts: 1788
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RE: Tri-Star No. 2 Engine Reverser Question

Sun Jan 17, 2010 1:59 am



Quoting MD-90 (Reply 44):
Ouch, that's a big delta in fuel costs.

Yes, it is, however, keep in mind that the DC10-30 is a heavier aircraft, and can fly very far, with a larger passenger load....DC10-30 vs L1011-500, for example.
The converted -250 model is an excellent performer, however.
The DC10 also made an excellent freighter.


The L1011, OTOH, was specifically delveloped as a passenger aircraft, and it excelled on the routes that it was designed for...and for all weather ops (IE, CATIIIB).

I flew for one charter operator that had both L1011 and B747-200 aircraft (all economy seating), and the seat/mile cost of operation of the L1011 was just slightly less than with the B747 type.

Every aircraft design is a compromise, to be sure.
 
2H4
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RE: Tri-Star No. 2 Engine Reverser Question

Sun Jan 17, 2010 11:08 pm



Quoting 474218 (Reply 43):
I am sticking around for your next "Name The Plane". I have been saving some prizes for you to give away.

Excellent! Yes, I need to get going on the next round of "Identify This"....
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