Moderators: richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
ManchesterMAN
Topic Author
Posts: 1056
Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2003 10:57 pm

De-Icing B747 - How Much Fluid Required?

Fri Feb 12, 2010 3:00 pm

Was just wondering, how much de-icing fluid would be required to de-ice a B747-400? I know that is like asking how long is a piece of string, but lets assume the aircraft has been exposed to extreme cold temperatures for a few hours, how much liquid would it need to make it safe for flying?

Thanks!
Flown: A300,A319,A320,A321,A330,A340.A380,717,727,737,747,757,767,777,DC9,DC10,MD11,MD80,F100,F50,ERJ,E190,CRJ,BAe146,Da
 
bri2k1
Posts: 952
Joined: Sun Dec 19, 2004 4:13 am

RE: De-Icing B747 - How Much Fluid Required?

Fri Feb 12, 2010 3:22 pm

Sounds like none. Just because it's cold doesn't mean it's covered in ice. If there's snow, ice, or even frost on it, that's a different story. The amount of fluid required will depend on how much accumulation there is and over how much of the surface (i.e. wings only, fuselage too, etc.). Sorry I don't know the exact numbers though. I'd guess a couple hundred gallons on average.
Position and hold
 
Sancho99504
Posts: 729
Joined: Sun Dec 11, 2005 2:44 pm

RE: De-Icing B747 - How Much Fluid Required?

Fri Feb 12, 2010 3:24 pm

At ORD, on a turn a/c we would use around 1100usg of type 1, and if it was needed, about 250usg of type 4. When we would deice an a/c that had been at ORD a few days, we could use up to 2400usg getting all the ice and snow off of it.
kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out-USMC
 
ManchesterMAN
Topic Author
Posts: 1056
Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2003 10:57 pm

RE: De-Icing B747 - How Much Fluid Required?

Fri Feb 12, 2010 4:08 pm

Thank you very much. My reason for asking was that I heard how much it cost to de-ice a B747 in a specific situation and I calculated it back to being around 5000 litres which given the above, seems plausible. Its an incredible amount of liquid though! Winter ops are very expensive it seems!!
Flown: A300,A319,A320,A321,A330,A340.A380,717,727,737,747,757,767,777,DC9,DC10,MD11,MD80,F100,F50,ERJ,E190,CRJ,BAe146,Da
 
2H4
Posts: 7960
Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2004 11:11 pm

RE: De-Icing B747 - How Much Fluid Required?

Fri Feb 12, 2010 7:26 pm

How did they de-ice large propliners in the 1940s and 1950s? What kinds of fluids did they use?
Intentionally Left Blank
 
lowrider
Posts: 2542
Joined: Wed Jun 30, 2004 3:09 am

RE: De-Icing B747 - How Much Fluid Required?

Fri Feb 12, 2010 9:25 pm

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 4):
How did they de-ice large propliners in the 1940s and 1950s?

Type 1 has been around for quite a while. It is not that different from auto antifreeze. They could deice closer to the runway as they did not have the environmental requirements for deicing pads. Also mechanical deicing (brooms, ropes, and squegees) were more common.
Proud OOTSK member
 
qm001
Posts: 340
Joined: Sat Mar 13, 2004 2:25 am

RE: De-Icing B747 - How Much Fluid Required?

Fri Feb 19, 2010 9:28 pm

Hi all,

Sounds to me like an awful lot of fluid!

Quote:
At ORD, on a turn a/c we would use around 1100usg of type 1, and if it was needed, about 250usg of type 4

I assume you are referring to USG sprayed, which may in fact be a dilution of Type I? When you say turnaround aircraft, do you mean its just turned around? If there is no precipitation then I would still see no need for de-icing. Again, if there is frost or ice for some reason, then that is another story. There are very clear guidelines, tables and manuals to consult.

Quote:
Type 1 has been around for quite a while. It is not that different from auto antifreeze.

I would agree with you that Type I fluid has been around a long time, since the 70's and prolifically since the 80's. Prior to this, most flights would use a very simple heated glycol mixture to remove ice or even a TKS system. I would strongly disagree however that it is a very similar to Anti-Freeze. A vast amount of resources are invested in the R&D of de-icing fluids in general, and they are far more complex that people would have you believe, especially the thickened fluids (Type II, Type III and Type IV)

I am a firm believer that if people realised the critical roll that it plays in keeping us all safe in the air, they would not be so irritable at the delays it can cause. Passengers now expect to fly whatever the weather in this day and age. I also think that most airlines do not fully realise the scale of how far aircraft de-icing has come and its important safety role.

Its a very interesting subject, and its actually quite amazing how people are always asking this very same question...

Quote:
how much de-icing fluid would be required to de-ice a B747-400

There are so many factors to take into account, that it requires special training for sprayers and supervisors. This combined with an educated flight crew, help us all stay safe while flying in winter.

Brgds,

QM001 (167 Air Malawi)
I wish there was still a flying boat service on the African Lakes!
 
luv2cattlecall
Posts: 838
Joined: Fri Sep 28, 2007 6:25 am

RE: De-Icing B747 - How Much Fluid Required?

Mon Feb 22, 2010 1:29 am

Quoting sancho99504 (Reply 2):
At ORD, on a turn a/c we would use around 1100usg of type 1, and if it was needed, about 250usg of type 4. When we would deice an a/c that had been at ORD a few days, we could use up to 2400usg getting all the ice and snow off of it.

So in the aforementioned situation, what kind of a bill would Servisair or whoever be sending the airline? Also, what would be a ballpark cost for deicing, for example, a B6 bird on a typical snowy JFK day?

Quoting qm001 (Reply 6):
TKS system.

Jw, what's a TKS system?

Quoting qm001 (Reply 6):
I would strongly disagree however that it is a very similar to Anti-Freeze. A vast amount of resources are invested in the R&D of de-icing fluids in general, and they are far more complex that people would have you believe, especially the thickened fluids (Type II, Type III and Type IV)

Thanks for clearing that up! I'd always assumed that glycol is glycol, but I suppose that even among car manufacturers, there's a significant range of formulations.


Since they are now required to have collection systems for sprayed fluid in may areas, can it be reused?
.
 
Okie
Posts: 4225
Joined: Wed Jul 16, 2003 11:30 am

RE: De-Icing B747 - How Much Fluid Required?

Mon Feb 22, 2010 3:05 am

Quoting luv2cattlecall (Reply 7):
Thanks for clearing that up! I'd always assumed that glycol is glycol, but I suppose that even among car manufacturers, there's a significant range of formulations.

ethylene glycol as a base fluid was abandon long ago for aircraft de-icing but still used as automotive antifreeze (an engine coolant with low freeze point) It was a good performer but a bad actor as far as the environment is concerned as it is poisonous.

propylene glycol is used now with additives as described above to meet certain classifications (types). Non poisionous, used as a sweetner in baked goods (cookies, cake mixes, soft drinks) a good performer and not as bad an actor environmentally (has a high oxygen demand to breakdown). When it gets in the intake of the APU and is burned it smells simular to waffle syrup. Oh and by the way all those passengers complaining about the smell just do not seem to notice the smoke generators at their local pub or concert that use propylene glycol to make smoke/haze.

Kilfrost which is 1,3 propanediol is also safe for humans and is derived from corn production and I am not familiar with but would assume from organic origins would have a high oxygen demand to breakdown as well.

Okie
 
Tristarsteve
Posts: 3691
Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2005 11:04 pm

RE: De-Icing B747 - How Much Fluid Required?

Mon Feb 22, 2010 4:51 am

Quoting luv2cattlecall (Reply 7):
Since they are now required to have collection systems for sprayed fluid in may areas, can it be reused?

Yes. Here at ARN Nordic Aero collect used deicing fluid and recycle it.
After deicing a sweeper lorry sucks it all up.

Quoting luv2cattlecall (Reply 7):
Jw, what's a TKS system?

TKS is deicing fluid that is carried on board the aircraft. It is pumped out from a tank to the leading edges.
Not used on big airliners, and no good for deicing on the ground.

Quoting luv2cattlecall (Reply 7):
Also, what would be a ballpark cost for deicing, for example, a B6 bird on a typical snowy JFK day?

There is no ball park figure. It is different all the time. We try and budget for deicing and get it wrong every year!

We pay a fixed call out fee for deicing. This pays for the lorries to show up. We then pay for the fluid by the litre.
Call out for a B747 is around 1000 USD, and fluid costs around 2 USD a litre.
As the deice company has to collect and process the used fluid they have a reason to use as little as possible. They do this by starting by blowing the loose snow off. Air pumps are fitted on the trucks. They can then use plain hot water to wash the snow off, before deicing properly. Deicing is normally carried out with type 1 at a mix of 50pc fluid and 50pc hot water. To deice a B747 that has only frost on it will use around 400litres of fluid. If it is covered in frozen snow it will be 1000s of litres.

I say usually, because at LHR they use diluted type 2 fluid for deicing.

There are so many ways of deicing, every airport is different. Whatever I say is usual, someone else will come up with another system. At OSL they have a large tent with infrared heat guns to deice aircarft.
 
XaraB
Posts: 131
Joined: Fri Aug 17, 2007 9:23 pm

RE: De-Icing B747 - How Much Fluid Required?

Mon Feb 22, 2010 11:49 am

Quoting Tristarsteve (Reply 9):
At OSL they have a large tent with infrared heat guns to deice aircarft.

Yes, they do. It was IIRC built as a trial project aiming for a more environmentally friendly way of deicing, since OSL is built on top of Norways largest natural ground-held fresh water reservoir.

However, the last I heard was that it doesn't work as planned, and I have never seen or been deiced in that tent once in the past 5 years.
An open mind is not an empty one
 
lowrider
Posts: 2542
Joined: Wed Jun 30, 2004 3:09 am

RE: De-Icing B747 - How Much Fluid Required?

Mon Feb 22, 2010 3:07 pm

Quoting okie (Reply 8):
ethylene glycol as a base fluid was abandon long ago for aircraft de-icing but still used as automotive antifreeze

According to Dow Chemical's website, thier UCAR ADF , UCAR ADF XL 54, and UCAR Endurance EG106 are all ethylene glycol based fluids.
Proud OOTSK member
 
Sancho99504
Posts: 729
Joined: Sun Dec 11, 2005 2:44 pm

RE: De-Icing B747 - How Much Fluid Required?

Mon Feb 22, 2010 5:46 pm

Quoting qm001 (Reply 6):
I assume you are referring to USG sprayed, which may in fact be a dilution of Type I? When you say turnaround aircraft, do you mean its just turned around? If there is no precipitation then I would still see no need for de-icing. Again, if there is frost or ice for some reason, then that is another story. There are very clear guidelines, tables and manuals to consult.

Yes in and out turns. I believe we used a 60/40 mix on type 1

Quoting luv2cattlecall (Reply 7):
So in the aforementioned situation, what kind of a bill would Servisair or whoever be sending the airline? Also, what would be a ballpark cost for deicing, for example, a B6 bird on a typical snowy JFK day?

It depends on what type of aircraft, what type of fluid, and how much used of each. I believe it was $7.85/gal for type 1 and $14.75/gal on type 4. For B6, depends on if its an E190 or A320, how long its been on the ground, if its just snow accumulation or snow and ice, basically, quite expensive.
kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out-USMC
 
Okie
Posts: 4225
Joined: Wed Jul 16, 2003 11:30 am

RE: De-Icing B747 - How Much Fluid Required?

Tue Feb 23, 2010 1:16 am

Quoting lowrider (Reply 11):
According to Dow Chemical's website, thier UCAR ADF , UCAR ADF XL 54, and UCAR Endurance EG106 are all ethylene glycol based fluids

I just doubt it is used that much anymore on commercial aircraft, but I could be wrong.

Okie
 
Sancho99504
Posts: 729
Joined: Sun Dec 11, 2005 2:44 pm

RE: De-Icing B747 - How Much Fluid Required?

Tue Feb 23, 2010 4:37 am

Quoting okie (Reply 13):

ethylene and propylene glycol are commonly used in deicing fluid
kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out-USMC
 
Okie
Posts: 4225
Joined: Wed Jul 16, 2003 11:30 am

RE: De-Icing B747 - How Much Fluid Required?

Fri Mar 05, 2010 2:59 am

The EPA anounced this week that they want a 60% recovery rate on De-icing fluids (Proposed)
On airports with 10,000 departures or 1,000 jet departures per year. (I do not know if turboprops are considered jets) Thats only means less than 3 per day average which would include a lot of small GA airports.
The recovered fluid will have to be treated on site or hauled by truck to a treatment facility.

The second portion of this proposal is to cut back on runoff from snow and ice removal, largely urea, which is actually fertilizer. (high in ammonia)

Look for your local GA airport to be waving you off with your G5 so they do not have to meet the new requirements, or to charge exorbant landing fees. This rule is based on departures not on the amount of deicing fluid used. So a busy GA in warm climate will have to have a pad and or equipment to deal with waste deicing fluid even though there is no deicing fluid within 30 miles except in your automoble radiator.

Urea is used with sand/salt for roads, look for further cutbacks there as well.

Okie
 
b78710
Posts: 311
Joined: Fri Mar 24, 2006 4:21 am

RE: De-Icing B747 - How Much Fluid Required?

Mon Mar 08, 2010 8:16 pm

here at LHR we rarely de ice our 747's

the airbus' are a different story.

a partial de ice usually requires around 500 LTRS. we use type 2 fluid at a ratio of 75/25

during the recent cold snap we had, on a standard 2hr or so turn we were spraying in excess of 2000 LTRS on our a/c. but it all depends how long they've been on the ground, the oat, the humidity, how much fuel is left on board etc

we pay an amount up front at the begining of the cold season, which the gives us a reduction in cost per ltr of fluid.

chatting to one of the de icers the other day, he was telling me they get called out to some aircraft (not ours) and will put on over 5000 LTRS at £4 per LTR, so its an expensive business

its always the saudi 777's that start deicing first, usually in october time, as they fly in so full of fuel as its cheaper for them to fly full to the brim than fill up at lhr
 
aogdesk
Posts: 748
Joined: Wed Jun 09, 2004 2:26 am

RE: De-Icing B747 - How Much Fluid Required?

Mon Mar 08, 2010 9:21 pm

Has anyone seen the infrared deicing systems in use at Newark (EWR) and Rhinelander Wisconsin (RHI)?

We used to have one in Buffalo NY, but it was more of a prototype installation. I'm just interested in seeing if there's folks on Anet who have either been directly involved in operating these deicing tents or if people have been on aircraft that get deiced this way.
 
Okie
Posts: 4225
Joined: Wed Jul 16, 2003 11:30 am

RE: De-Icing B747 - How Much Fluid Required?

Mon Mar 08, 2010 10:35 pm

Quoting aogdesk (Reply 17):
We used to have one in Buffalo NY, but it was more of a prototype installation. I'm just interested in seeing if there's folks on Anet who have either been directly involved in operating these deicing tents or if people have been on aircraft that get deiced this way

As far as I know the infrared type installations were failures.

While it takes only 144btu per pound of ice/sleet/snow to convert from 32deg F (0C) to 32deg F (0C) water there are several problems involved. You also have to add btu's to heat the ice to 32F.


You are dealing with a very large object (mass) that would have to be heated above 32deg F.
You are dealing with a very reflective substance and aircraft.
You have to remember the aircraft arrived from an atmosphere that was near -40deg an hour or so before with some cold soaked fuel.
You have zero hold over time
You are talking massive amounts of energy and time.

It is just easier, cheaper and faster to chemically change the freeze point of the snow/ice and leave a residue that allows hold over time

Okie

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 17 guests

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos