jayeshrulz
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Can A Pax Notice If Pilot Does A Autoland?

Wed Feb 17, 2010 1:18 pm

Same as above.
Can i notice it?
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airtran737
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RE: Can A Pax Notice If Pilot Does A Autoland?

Wed Feb 17, 2010 1:20 pm

Quoting jayeshrulz (Thread starter):

You will never know unless you're sitting up front
Nice Trip Report!!! Great Pics, thanks for posting!!!! B747Forever
 
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keesje
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RE: Can A Pax Notice If Pilot Does A Autoland?

Wed Feb 17, 2010 1:54 pm

Loud talking from the cockpit and the aircraft making wild movements during perfect weather conditions, then the autopilot is probably off. If the cockpit is empty, the crew hanging out in the galley and still a perfect landing is made, maybe it's on.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
AirNZ
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RE: Can A Pax Notice If Pilot Does A Autoland?

Wed Feb 17, 2010 2:02 pm

Quoting jayeshrulz (Thread starter):
Can i notice it?

Not at all, and no reason at all why you should notice it as it has no effect whatsoever on a passengers perspective.
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Jetmarc
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RE: Can A Pax Notice If Pilot Does A Autoland?

Wed Feb 17, 2010 2:21 pm

In the A320, the touch down is usually a little quicker (plane doesn't flair as much) and firmer, followed by the nose gear touching quickly as well - most pilots hold the nose up a bit... if you're towards the front of the plane, you may hear the autopilot disconnect as they take command of the plane slowing on the runway...
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jetskipper
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RE: Can A Pax Notice If Pilot Does A Autoland?

Wed Feb 17, 2010 2:25 pm

In the 737, there is no way to know. At my airline it is required to do one autoland in every aircraft every 30 days.
 
MD88Captain
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RE: Can A Pax Notice If Pilot Does A Autoland?

Wed Feb 17, 2010 3:09 pm

Typically an autoland will land imperceptibly differently (from coach) from a manual landing. An MD80 starts the flare early, a 777 & MD11 lower the nose more quickly than pilots normally do, the 76/75 tend to land a bit firmer than most manual landings... But f I am flying in the back on an aircraft on which I have several thousands of hours - I probably wouldn't notice an autoland. Maybe, but probably not. I do not think a pax with no experience would ever know unless told.

Caveat. If you are sitting in the first few rows, you may be able to hear the aural annuciations of the Cat3/autoland system. If you are hearing a computer voice say "Flare", then you are hearing an autoland. (Even so, regular computer callouts (1000' , 500', minimums) are intermixed in an autoland sequence. You really have to know the sequence of callouts to recognize an autoland.)

Foolproof: If the wx is RVR 300, then you are doing an autoland.
 
louA340
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RE: Can A Pax Notice If Pilot Does A Autoland?

Wed Feb 17, 2010 3:25 pm

Yes there is one sure way to know if autoland was used and that of course it when you are landing in CAT II or CAT III conditions. In such conditions with fog or snow the pilots definitely have to be using the autopilot to land it.
 
 
ThePinnacleKid
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RE: Can A Pax Notice If Pilot Does A Autoland?

Wed Feb 17, 2010 3:31 pm

Quoting louA340 (Reply 7):
Yes there is one sure way to know if autoland was used and that of course it when you are landing in CAT II

Nope... a CAT II is coupled to the autopilot but is NOT mandatory autoland... we don't have autoland in my aircraft yet we do CAT II's...
"Sonny, did we land? or were we shot down?"
 
Delta763
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RE: Can A Pax Notice If Pilot Does A Autoland?

Wed Feb 17, 2010 3:50 pm

I was on a DL 764 to SFO and the pilot actually announced to the cabin he used autoland. To me it was no different from any of the many other landings I've felt.
 
apodino
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RE: Can A Pax Notice If Pilot Does A Autoland?

Wed Feb 17, 2010 4:11 pm

If you are flying Southwest, you are not doing an autoland even in CAT III since they rely on HUD's for CAT III, and don't have autoland equipment in their aircraft.

If you are flying on a CRJ, it is not an autoland since CRJ's don't have autolands. On a side note some regional carriers, noteably Air Wisconsin, aren't even CAT II certified even though the plane is certified for CAT II.

Generally speaking, if I am in the first few rows of a CRJ or an Airbus and I hear the calvary charge, I know its a manual landing since thats the autopilot disconnecting.
 
pnwtraveler
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RE: Can A Pax Notice If Pilot Does A Autoland?

Wed Feb 17, 2010 4:31 pm

First time ever I was on autoland that I was aware of was on a CPAir DC10 flying from YYZ to YVR. We landed and we weren't sure we were on the ground until we felt the bump. You could see a glow from the runway lights. We pulled onto a runway exit and waited for a ground vehicle to lead us to the terminal. It was a truck with flashing yellow lights and the follow me sign on the back. We knew because the pilot came on as we pulled off the runway and told us we had autolanded and what the delay was and to remain seated.
 
beakerltn
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RE: Can A Pax Notice If Pilot Does A Autoland?

Wed Feb 17, 2010 9:01 pm

I've flown on a 77W, landing with a ground temperature of about -8'C. I felt the whole thing 'felt' manual - specifically the throttles - they were more prominent, rather than a computer predicting and making small adjustments. Only afterwards I read somewhere that when ice is possible they must land manually.

Is there anything in my observation?
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AirframeAS
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RE: Can A Pax Notice If Pilot Does A Autoland?

Wed Feb 17, 2010 9:08 pm

Quoting apodino (Reply 10):
If you are flying Southwest, you are not doing an autoland even in CAT III since they rely on HUD's for CAT III, and don't have autoland equipment in their aircraft.

I thought they had the equipment, but it is disabled (switched off) per company policy.   

Quoting MD88Captain (Reply 6):
Foolproof: If the wx is RVR 300, then you are doing an autoland.

CATIIIb, perhaps?  
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
 
PGNCS
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RE: Can A Pax Notice If Pilot Does A Autoland?

Wed Feb 17, 2010 9:21 pm

Bottom line:

A passenger can't tell an autoland from a manual landing unless they can hear certain aural alerts from the cockpit and know what they mean.
 
stratosphere
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RE: Can A Pax Notice If Pilot Does A Autoland?

Wed Feb 17, 2010 9:44 pm

Quoting PGNCS (Reply 14):
A passenger can't tell an autoland from a manual landing unless they can hear certain aural alerts from the cockpit and know what they mean.

True...When I am on the A320 in f/c I can hear the "calvelry charge" on the approach so I know they have disconnected the a/p.
 
kimberlyRJ
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RE: Can A Pax Notice If Pilot Does A Autoland?

Wed Feb 17, 2010 10:26 pm

I have a close male friend who is a Captain for TOM on the Boeing 737-800. I have sat in the FD on all the flights I have flown with him and I have noticed that on the three occasions that I have been in the FD and a full auto land was performed I found that the B738 landed firmer than normal and also seemed to give a little more of a bounce then I have detected normally.

Back at ‘my’ airline I find that the B777 on auto land lowers its nose quicker than pilots would normally do and while this sounds odd you feel the aircraft just wants to touch down as soon as possible which often results in the landing being somewhat ‘firm’. As I get a weather report before landing at our destination I am normally told if we are going to be making a full auto land, or if there is anything of note (bad weather etc).

I would say as a whole the movements of the aircraft on an auto land are more precise and if anything you may notice a firm landing but more than likely you won’t notice anything at all...

Over the years (as both cabin crew and PAX) I have noticed some pilots make an announcement confirming that the landing will be a auto land (some pilots do this before landing, most do it after) you can always see the look of amazement on the passengers faces when they are told what is going to happen, or what just did happened... I find it very amusing!

For those pilots out there – do you find it hard to release control to the auto land system?

Kimberly
 
Fly2HMO
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RE: Can A Pax Notice If Pilot Does A Autoland?

Wed Feb 17, 2010 10:28 pm

Quoting BeakerLTN (Reply 12):
I've flown on a 77W, landing with a ground temperature of about -8'C. I felt the whole thing 'felt' manual - specifically the throttles - they were more prominent, rather than a computer predicting and making small adjustments. Only afterwards I read somewhere that when ice is possible they must land manually.

Is there anything in my observation?

Don't see what you're getting at. 90% of all landings are manual. As for performing autolands in icing I am not aware of any restrictions off the top of my head.
 
Max Q
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RE: Can A Pax Notice If Pilot Does A Autoland?

Thu Feb 18, 2010 3:31 am

There is no audible 'flare annunciation' during an autoland on the 757 / 767. You will see it on the FMA (flight mode annunciator)



Why would the autopilot need an aural warning to flare, MD88 Captain ?



Boeings automation philosophy for autolands is a quiet, dark cockpit with visual mode annunciations as the appraoch and landing progress. Believe me, it works very well.
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.


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CosmicCruiser
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RE: Can A Pax Notice If Pilot Does A Autoland?

Thu Feb 18, 2010 12:54 pm

Quoting PGNCS (Reply 14):
unless they can hear certain aural alerts from the cockpit and know what they mean.

MD-11 has no aural alerts on autoland. They're all illuminated indications

Quoting kimberlyrj (Reply 16):
do you find it hard to release control to the auto land system

No if that's what is required.

Quoting BeakerLTN (Reply 12):
I read somewhere that when ice is possible they must land manually.

never heard of it
 
474218
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RE: Can A Pax Notice If Pilot Does A Autoland?

Thu Feb 18, 2010 8:23 pm

Quoting apodino (Reply 10):
If you are flying Southwest, you are not doing an autoland even in CAT III since they rely on HUD's for CAT III, and don't have autoland equipment in their aircraft.

Are you saying HUD's are required for CAT III landings?
 
XFSUgimpLB41X
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RE: Can A Pax Notice If Pilot Does A Autoland?

Thu Feb 18, 2010 8:34 pm

Quoting 474218 (Reply 20):
Are you saying HUD's are required for CAT III landings?

For a CAT III manual land, yes.

Quoting ThePinnacleKid (Reply 8):
Nope... a CAT II is coupled to the autopilot but is NOT mandatory autoland... we don't have autoland in my aircraft yet we do CAT II's...

This varies from carrier to carrier. At my carrier we are only certified for CAT II autoland (except for the DC-9 fleet).

Quoting PGNCS (Reply 14):

A passenger can't tell an autoland from a manual landing unless they can hear certain aural alerts from the cockpit and know what they mean

This isn't quite true. There are no additional aural indications during an autoland vs. manual landing except for the "minimums" RA bug.
Chicks dig winglets.
 
kimon
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RE: Can A Pax Notice If Pilot Does A Autoland?

Thu Feb 18, 2010 10:23 pm

Dum Romae consulitur, Saguntum expugnatur
 
 
PGNCS
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RE: Can A Pax Notice If Pilot Does A Autoland?

Fri Feb 19, 2010 12:58 am

Quoting XFSUgimpLB41X (Reply 21):
Quoting PGNCS (Reply 14):

A passenger can't tell an autoland from a manual landing unless they can hear certain aural alerts from the cockpit and know what they mean

This isn't quite true. There are no additional aural indications during an autoland vs. manual landing except for the "minimums" RA bug.

There are autopilot disconnect aural alerts that can definitively tell a knowledgeable person that it is not an autoland. They differ on various makes and models, and most people won't know what they mean.

Quoting stratosphere (Reply 15):
Quoting PGNCS (Reply 14):
A passenger can't tell an autoland from a manual landing unless they can hear certain aural alerts from the cockpit and know what they mean.

True...When I am on the A320 in f/c I can hear the "calvelry charge" on the approach so I know they have disconnected the a/p.

You completely understand my point.

Quoting Max Q (Reply 18):
There is no audible 'flare annunciation' during an autoland on the 757 / 767. You will see it on the FMA (flight mode annunciator)

I don't know if you were responding to my post, but if so I didn't say or intend otherwise; there ARE aural warings if the autopilot is disconnected, however.

Quoting Max Q (Reply 18):
Boeings automation philosophy for autolands is a quiet, dark cockpit with visual mode annunciations as the appraoch and landing progress. Believe me, it works very well.

Boeing's autoland works no better or worse than any other manufacturer's, except Lockheed. Boeing doesn't come close to the L-1011 for either consistent smoothness or touchdown dispersal in my experience, but then again, neither does anybody else.

Quoting CosmicCruiser (Reply 19):
Quoting PGNCS (Reply 14):
unless they can hear certain aural alerts from the cockpit and know what they mean.

MD-11 has no aural alerts on autoland. They're all illuminated indications

I bet it has an aural warning if the autopilot disconnects, though, doesn't it?
 
XFSUgimpLB41X
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RE: Can A Pax Notice If Pilot Does A Autoland?

Fri Feb 19, 2010 1:48 am

Quoting PGNCS (Reply 24):
I don't know if you were responding to my post, but if so I didn't say or intend otherwise; there ARE aural warings if the autopilot is disconnected, however.

As was previously stated, on the 757/767 if the autopilot is intentionally disconnected (more than one click of the disconnect button), there is no aural disconnect warning.
Chicks dig winglets.
 
jayeshrulz
Topic Author
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RE: Can A Pax Notice If Pilot Does A Autoland?

Fri Feb 19, 2010 6:58 pm

Quoting kimon (Reply 23):

Thanks.Excellent search.
Keep flying, because the sky is no limit!
 
tdscanuck
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RE: Can A Pax Notice If Pilot Does A Autoland?

Tue Feb 23, 2010 1:33 am

Quoting XFSUgimpLB41X (Reply 25):
As was previously stated, on the 757/767 if the autopilot is intentionally disconnected (more than one click of the disconnect button), there is no aural disconnect warning.

That depends how fast you click. The first click disconnects and always initiates the aural disconnect warning...the second click kills the aural.

Tom.
 
bond007
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RE: Can A Pax Notice If Pilot Does A Autoland?

Tue Feb 23, 2010 4:44 am

Well, you may or may not notice the difference for a specific single landing, but if you compared multiple manual landings to automatic landings you'd probably notice the automatic landings being much more firm. Remember that the pilot is potentially holding it off the ground much further down the runway than the autoland will ... the autoland system WILL touch the wheels down within a specific length of the runway ... I might not, depending on the conditions.

It's a myth IMO that autolands are smoother ... in fact quite the opposite on average, which is apparent when you realize what the autopilot is trying to do as opposed to the pilot, in terms of touchdown.


Jimbo
I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
 
XFSUgimpLB41X
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RE: Can A Pax Notice If Pilot Does A Autoland?

Tue Feb 23, 2010 7:12 pm

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 27):
That depends how fast you click. The first click disconnects and always initiates the aural disconnect warning...the second click kills the aural.

Let me know when you find a boeing pilot that doesn't click the disconnect button multiple times in quick succession.

We don't like making noises we don't have to hear.....
Chicks dig winglets.
 
PGNCS
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RE: Can A Pax Notice If Pilot Does A Autoland?

Tue Feb 23, 2010 10:20 pm

Quoting XFSUgimpLB41X (Reply 25):
Quoting PGNCS (Reply 24):
I don't know if you were responding to my post, but if so I didn't say or intend otherwise; there ARE aural warings if the autopilot is disconnected, however.

As was previously stated, on the 757/767 if the autopilot is intentionally disconnected (more than one click of the disconnect button), there is no aural disconnect warning.

I flew the 757/767 for years, and understand that the first press of the AP disconnect button disconnects the AP and activates the AP disconnect aural, and the second button press cancels the aural warning. My entire point was that if you can't hear the aural warnings in the cabin, the passengers have no way of telling whether or not an autoland occurred. If you can hear it, depending on when it occurs the passenger with some knowledge can infer whether an autoland occurred. I wasn't trying to make my response unique to the 757/767, as that wasn't the OP's focus. Certainly on some aircraft it is easier to determine than on others, e.g. the MD-80 which has the CAWS "Autopilot" aural warning, which is clearly audible from the forward cabin due to the quietness of the aircraft and the volume of the alert.

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 27):
Quoting XFSUgimpLB41X (Reply 25):
As was previously stated, on the 757/767 if the autopilot is intentionally disconnected (more than one click of the disconnect button), there is no aural disconnect warning.

That depends how fast you click. The first click disconnects and always initiates the aural disconnect warning...the second click kills the aural.

That is exactly correct. If it is done so quickly that the aural is never heard, the passenger will not have enough information to know whether or not it was an autoland. That is exactly my point. If you can hear the disconnect from the cabin, a learned passenger might be able to discern whether or not an autoland occurred based on when the AP disconnect was heard. i.e. before or after landing. If no aural warnings are present, the passenger has no way of discerning.
 
tdscanuck
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RE: Can A Pax Notice If Pilot Does A Autoland?

Wed Feb 24, 2010 1:08 am

Quoting XFSUgimpLB41X (Reply 29):
Let me know when you find a boeing pilot that doesn't click the disconnect button multiple times in quick succession.

I've never seen one...but I've flown with lots of Boeing pilots and had the autopilot wailer manage to get one "whoop" out before the second click kicks in. It's worse on the the highly automated aircraft because of the processing delay in the computer.

Tom.
 
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Web500sjc
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RE: Can A Pax Notice If Pilot Does A Autoland?

Wed Feb 24, 2010 3:42 am

I know the people on that TK flight to AMS now know that landing was an auto-land, I think they now prefer manual landings.
Boiler Up!
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: Can A Pax Notice If Pilot Does A Autoland?

Wed Feb 24, 2010 4:10 am

Quoting web500sjc (Reply 32):
I know the people on that TK flight to AMS now know that landing was an auto-land, I think they now prefer manual landings.

Heh. Well to be fair if the automation had been used correctly based on circumstances there would not have been an issue.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
wing
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RE: Can A Pax Notice If Pilot Does A Autoland?

Thu Mar 04, 2010 8:41 am

Quoting web500sjc (Reply 32):
know the people on that TK flight to AMS now know that landing was an auto-land, I think they now prefer manual landings.

If you are talking about TK1951 crash that was not an autoland.
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CosmicCruiser
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RE: Can A Pax Notice If Pilot Does A Autoland?

Thu Mar 04, 2010 1:07 pm

I've never noticed the MD=11 making any firmer landings than a manual one. It can beat me 50% of the time!!  
 
musang
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RE: Can A Pax Notice If Pilot Does A Autoland?

Thu Mar 04, 2010 2:33 pm

Quoting AirNZ (Reply 3):
Not at all, and no reason at all why you should notice it as it has no effect whatsoever on a passengers perspective
Quoting jetskipper (Reply 5):
In the 737, there is no way to know. At my airline it is required to do one autoland in every aircraft every 30 days.

I would contend that if you are in a 737 which does a smooth landing, it was manual. The autoland (I fly classics) is pretty crude. It will usually be close to abeam the glideslope antenna, but is rarely on the centreline, and may be drifting away from the centreline depending on crosswind component change after flare starts*. If its a firm landing, it could be auto or manual. I certainly don't claim to be able to land them smoothly consistently, like we could on the 146/RJ.

Quoting PGNCS (Reply 24):
Boeing's autoland works no better or worse than any other manufacturer's, except Lockheed. Boeing doesn't come close to the L-1011 for either consistent smoothness or touchdown dispersal in my experience, but then again, neither does anybody else.

Except the Avro RJs, which reguar readers will remember me raving about in past posts. I certainly agree on the Tristar. My first a/land (in the jumpseat while still a student) was in a -500. With the RJ autoland, we knew it had landed because we could discern the rumbling of the wheels on the runway and it was deadly accurate. In contrast to the 737, the RJ tracked the centreline down to 60 knots (using rudder and adding aileron if there was a crosswind), whilst the 737 (once again, I fly classics - don't know if NGs are the same) in the flare simply holds a heading*, and hence leaves the centreline sometimes.

* - The manual is vague on what exactly the guidance system is doing at this point. My understanding, on which I look forward to being correcte if necessary, is that there comes a point (flare initiation?) where it stops tracking the localiser, holds a heading, and hopes for the best!

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 27):
That depends how fast you click. The first click disconnects and always initiates the aural disconnect warning...the second click kills the aural.

Our 737s - according to the manual:

first click - disengages autopilot(s), starts disengage lights flashing, starts the warning tone for a minimum of 2 seconds.
Second click - extinguishes the lights and silences the tone.

However its not quite correct. The tone will run for its 2 seconds regardless of how soon you do the second click. Its this 2 second period in which the co-pilots are intent on cramming in as many clicks as they can, until the tone stops, although the second click is all they need.

If you make one click, starting the warning tone, and let it sound for more than 2 seconds, then the second click will stop it immediately. Its had its programmed, uncancellable 2 secs.

Quoting XFSUgimpLB41X (Reply 29):
Let me know when you find a boeing pilot that doesn't click the disconnect button multiple times in quick succession.

Me! I make the 2nd and final click about a second after the first.

I enjoy asking co-pilots if they actually know what the first and second clicks do. They always know the answer, so then I ask why they give it mutiple extra clicks. There's usually a sheepish smile and no coherent answer!

I heard from the simulator centre that trainers on other fleets can tell they're dealing with an ex 737 pilot due to "multiple clicking syndrome", which implies its just a 737 issue in our company, supporting the 757/767 sequence mentioned earlier.

Regards - musang

[Edited 2010-03-04 06:34:56]
 
David L
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RE: Can A Pax Notice If Pilot Does A Autoland?

Thu Mar 04, 2010 9:09 pm

Quoting Musang (Reply 36):
They always know the answer, so then I ask why they give it mutiple extra clicks. There's usually a sheepish smile and no coherent answer

If the same "logic" is used as with lifts and pedestrian crossings, it's so that "it will think" that twenty pilots want the autopilot disengaged rather than just one.  
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: Can A Pax Notice If Pilot Does A Autoland?

Thu Mar 04, 2010 11:26 pm

Quoting David L (Reply 37):
Quoting Musang (Reply 36):
They always know the answer, so then I ask why they give it mutiple extra clicks. There's usually a sheepish smile and no coherent answer

If the same "logic" is used as with lifts and pedestrian crossings, it's so that "it will think" that twenty pilots want the autopilot disengaged rather than just one.

Exactly the same with many computer users. If at first there is no response, double-click again, and again, and again. I tell the the computer heard them the first time and now they're just adding workload to a machine that is already behind. Sigh...
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo

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