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kimon
Topic Author
Posts: 252
Joined: Mon Nov 23, 2009 2:37 pm

Some Questions Regarding Blind Takeoffs.

Wed Feb 24, 2010 4:12 pm

What is the status on blind takeoffs?
Zero viz T/Os?
Many thanks!
Dum Romae consulitur, Saguntum expugnatur
 
KELPkid
Posts: 5247
Joined: Wed Nov 02, 2005 5:33 am

Some Questions Regarding Blind Takeoffs.

Wed Feb 24, 2010 4:25 pm

In the US, a zero/zero takeoff is legal under part 91, but not under part 121 or 135 (the commercial operating rules). However, it is not one of the smartest things you can do...what happens if there's a problem and you're committed to a takeoff? You definitely aren't returning to the field you just took off from...

Also, I do believe that the takeoff runway visibility requirements the FAA started publishing in the TERPS at most fields with instrument approaches have effectively done away with the possiblility of a zero/zero takeoff. You would have to do it from a field with nothing published in the TERPS, basically...  
Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
 
dw747400
Posts: 1100
Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2001 8:24 am

Some Questions Regarding Blind Takeoffs.

Wed Feb 24, 2010 7:17 pm

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 1):
what happens if there's a problem and you're committed to a takeoff? You definitely aren't returning to the field you just took off from...

Keep in mind some commercial operators have takeoff minimums lower than the approach minimums at the filed they are departing. In this case a departure alternate is used.
CFI--Certfied Freakin Idiot
 
ThirtyEcho
Posts: 1411
Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2002 1:21 am

Some Questions Regarding Blind Takeoffs.

Thu Feb 25, 2010 5:50 am

Curiously enough, some WWII bomber squadrons under the command of Curtis LeMay and flying out of England became adept at 0/0 takeoffs. Lemay was frustrated by the cancellation of missions due to poor takeoff visibility when there was blue sky only 1000 feet up.The technique consisted of a "Follow Me" jeep positioning you right on the centerline, setting the DG to the precise runway heading and flying by sole reference to the DG until flying speed was reached. It was extraordinarily dangerous but what takeoff in a WWII bomber at max gross overload wasn't dangerous?
 
pilotpip
Posts: 2844
Joined: Fri Sep 19, 2003 3:26 pm

Some Questions Regarding Blind Takeoffs.

Sat Feb 27, 2010 7:14 am

As others have said, part 121 and 135 set minimums. At my carrier it's 600rvr with a host of restrictions on operative runway lighting, rvr transmissiometers and crew qualification. In addition, a takeoff alternate must be listed in case we have to return to the field for any reason right after takeoff. Actually, we won't be returning to the departure airport because there isn't enough visibility to do an approach.

I've done one takeoff with an RVR below 1000 feet (well, I didn't because I can only do them down to 1200 in the right seat) and it wasn't my idea of a good time. I'd much rather be able to get back to the airport I just took off from if something doesn't go right.
DMI
 
bri2k1
Posts: 952
Joined: Sun Dec 19, 2004 4:13 am

Some Questions Regarding Blind Takeoffs.

Sat Feb 27, 2010 5:01 pm

Quoting pilotpip (Reply 4):
crew qualification

Like what, you have to pass a blindness test?
Position and hold
 
kimon
Topic Author
Posts: 252
Joined: Mon Nov 23, 2009 2:37 pm

Some Questions Regarding Blind Takeoffs.

Sat Feb 27, 2010 7:37 pm

Since all BA aircraft are equipped with PVD,the RVR minimum is 75 meters as opposed to others (non-PVD) which is 125 metres.
PVD in test mode
http://www.aerowinx.com/html/gallery04.html

[Edited 2010-02-27 11:41:36]
Dum Romae consulitur, Saguntum expugnatur
 
pilotpip
Posts: 2844
Joined: Fri Sep 19, 2003 3:26 pm

Some Questions Regarding Blind Takeoffs.

Sat Feb 27, 2010 7:57 pm

Quoting bri2k1 (Reply 5):

Like what, you have to pass a blindness test?

Simulator training. I just completed a PC and prior to that I was limited to 3000rvr which was the previously the minimum for FOs at my airline. You have to demonstrate that you know the requirements for conducting the operation.
DMI
 
Euclid
Posts: 324
Joined: Fri Apr 22, 2005 3:42 am

Some Questions Regarding Blind Takeoffs.

Sat Mar 06, 2010 5:46 pm

Well, don't know about how wise it is to do a zero visibility take-off, but I have done a few in my life.

During training under the hood for my night rating, the last few lessons my instructor made me take off under the hood every time, after lining up the aircraft on the runway.

He would also make me join and fly the whole circuit under the hood as well up to just before landing. He would just tell me when to turn to join the circuit and I would then turn onto the appropriate downwind heading, then tell me to turn base, tell me to turn final, and would warn me if I was too high or low.

Each time he would let me lift up the hood at the last possible moment I was alway lined up quite decently for the landing.

I was basically under the hood for those last lessons from take-off to just before touchdown. If we did a touch and go landing the hood would be covering me again even before I could apply power.

It felt quite scary, even knowing there's an instructor right next to you that has got a clear view of everything, but man, was it good training in learning to trust your instruments.
 
Fly2HMO
Posts: 7184
Joined: Sat Jan 24, 2004 12:14 pm

Some Questions Regarding Blind Takeoffs.

Sat Mar 06, 2010 7:15 pm

Quoting Euclid (Reply 8):
but man, was it good training in learning to trust your instruments

Indeed. I got to do several under-the-hood takeoffs. Amazing how you can actually stay within center line just by following the DG. Also, you could cheat and follow the localizer if the airport is so equipped.
 
ThePinnacleKid
Posts: 542
Joined: Wed Feb 23, 2005 9:47 am

Some Questions Regarding Blind Takeoffs.

Sat Mar 06, 2010 8:35 pm

Quoting bri2k1 (Reply 5):
Like what, you have to pass a blindness test?

lol... funny as it sounds... it is true.. there are qualifications for crew members that must be passed in order to use reduced t/o minimums.. every carrier is different on their abilities and limitations... as pilotpip talked some about his carriers limitations... at my carrier (flying the same equipment as his) we do 600 rvr t/o's as well but from either seat... I've personally done a couple of them (right seat at 600' rvr).. they're not that bad really.. you just track the lights... all of that said and done.. how we are qualified is by doing our sim sessions doing a V1 cut on a 6-6-6 T/O as they're known... 6-6-6 (six - six - six, referring to the required RVR readings 600' at dept, midpoint, and rollout)

There are a huge laundry list of things that go into using reduced t/o minimums and complications that result.. such as the need for t/o alternates, etc...
"Sonny, did we land? or were we shot down?"
 
bri2k1
Posts: 952
Joined: Sun Dec 19, 2004 4:13 am

RE: Some Questions Regarding Blind Takeoffs.

Sun Mar 07, 2010 1:39 pm

I'm glad someone knew I was kidding  

The simulator is a valuable tool for practicing nearly any kind of procedure. Because of the higher propensity for system failures to occur while in the simulator, it's often more stressful than actual flying, too. But I will never forget my first flight in true IMC, including approaches to minimums. Watching the water pouring off the airframe, remembering to trust the instruments even though they just had to be lying about that heading, seeing the runway miraculously appear right below me seconds before touchdown... It is indescribable.
Position and hold
 
ThirtyEcho
Posts: 1411
Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2002 1:21 am

RE: Some Questions Regarding Blind Takeoffs.

Sun Mar 07, 2010 11:33 pm

Quoting bri2k1 (Reply 11):
But I will never forget my first flight in true IMC, including approaches to minimums.

No instrument instructor who I know would support the idea that a new rating should fly approaches to minimums. When I got my rating way back there in the day, my instructor warned me to add a lot of padding to minimums for my first 100 hours of actual and never to fly circle-to-land approaches at night. Sage advice from an ex-Burma Hump pilot, to my way of thinking.
 
Fly2HMO
Posts: 7184
Joined: Sat Jan 24, 2004 12:14 pm

RE: Some Questions Regarding Blind Takeoffs.

Mon Mar 08, 2010 1:53 am

Quoting bri2k1 (Reply 11):
Watching the water pouring off the airframe, remembering to trust the instruments even though they just had to be lying about that heading, seeing the runway miraculously appear right below me seconds before touchdown... It is indescribable.

It really is amazing the first of times huh? I remember my first real LOC approach into MRY, such a surreal experience to be in the soup and then suddenly appear right in front of the runway. All that could come out of my mouth was ooooooh woooooow. But no worries, when I was done drooling, I promptly resumed my flying duties and greased the landing   One of my most satisfying flights ever.

Even more amazing were those CATIIIB landings I did right to DH in a 738 Level D sim. You seriously have a split second to make up your mind to either land or go missed.   

Orville and Wilbur would have never dreamed of that ever being possible.   

Quoting ThirtyEcho (Reply 12):
No instrument instructor who I know would support the idea that a new rating should fly approaches to minimums.

True, but there's only one way to learn...
 
sccutler
Posts: 5843
Joined: Thu Jan 27, 2000 12:16 pm

RE: Some Questions Regarding Blind Takeoffs.

Mon Mar 08, 2010 3:45 am

I have chosen to take off in conditions too low to return and (legally) land, but only once. It was RVR (if I recall correctly) of around 1,200'. Whatever it was, the ground controllers were requiring position reports from aircraft so they knew where you were (this was at KAUS).

Was in solid IMC within 5 seconds of rotating; was in the bright sunshine within five minutes. All was well, but I do not know that I would do it again, as the stress level was a bit high. Departing on 17R, I was prepared to "chop and drop" in case of trouble shortly after lift-off (12k runway); I also had the LOC for 17L dialed-in on second NAV, and this, along with my GPS, would have given me at least a shot at getting back on the ground on something somewhat flat.

There's a reason why airliners have limitations as they do; in my instance, I was legal, and all went fine, but (like I say) not for the faint-of-heart.
...three miles from BRONS, clear for the ILS one five approach...
 
bri2k1
Posts: 952
Joined: Sun Dec 19, 2004 4:13 am

RE: Some Questions Regarding Blind Takeoffs.

Mon Mar 08, 2010 7:00 pm

Quoting ThirtyEcho (Reply 12):
No instrument instructor who I know would support the idea that a new rating should fly approaches to minimums.

Me either. That's why he was sitting just to my right!  
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