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avt007
Posts: 1989
Joined: Mon Jul 10, 2000 4:51 am

RE: Ultimate Authority Always With Captain?

Wed Apr 14, 2010 8:40 pm

Quoting 411A (Reply 49):
'Attitude' we don't need, professionals only.

Seriously? Read on...

Quoting 411A (Reply 41):
You don't ground anything.
Quoting 411A (Reply 41):
I can get the quality control manager to issue a dispensation (normally, with the specific regulatory authority approval), and you are totallly out of the picture....and quite likely, out of a job as well.
As in...bypassed.
Nothing you can do about it.

So your idea of professionalism is to overrride individuals who question you, then try to get them fired? OMG.

Quoting 411A (Reply 39):
In our operation, I never argue, I decide.

Is that a quote from your Crew Resource Management training?

BTW, you haven't answered my questions on airworthiness.
 
411A
Posts: 1788
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RE: Ultimate Authority Always With Captain?

Wed Apr 14, 2010 11:06 pm

Quoting avt007 (Reply 50):
So your idea of professionalism is to overrride individuals who question you, then try to get them fired?

Yup, not only fired, expunged from the company.
Clearly, you are a 'junior' type.
We have no use for this type.,
Fact.

Quoting avt007 (Reply 50):
BTW, you haven't answered my questions on airworthiness.

Certainly have, previously, and...I have the specific qualifications to do so.
And, the specific regulatoty authority fully agrees.

I firmly suggest you bottle up your attitude and try to sell it elsewhere...as it won't sell here.
IE: not with those whom have long gone before.
 
avt007
Posts: 1989
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RE: Ultimate Authority Always With Captain?

Wed Apr 14, 2010 11:36 pm

Wow. I am nearly speechless. In 23 years (hardly "junior" I would think) I have never come across a more unusual attitude towards fellow aviation professionals.

Of course, that is why I resigned from working for small 3rd world operators, in countries with incompetent and corrupt aviation authorities.

Not only have I been there, but I've turned down offers from other such companies since they are not up to my standards, nor those of the proper airline industry, EASA, FAA, TC, etc.

It was a pleasure to get back to the real world where we work as a team, with respect and regard for everyone in the company. Not to mention a regulatory and operational environment where staff cannot be punished for carrying out their legal responsibilities.

So after 50-odd replies, I'll answer the OPs question: No it would not have been legal, since AF is a proper airline operating under EASA regulations.
 
AirframeAS
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RE: Ultimate Authority Always With Captain?

Wed Apr 14, 2010 11:57 pm

Holy CRAP!!!!  Wow! I have no idea where to start...however....

I just read this thread and I am amazed by the attitude that 411A has here. I'm sorry but I have to agree with my fellow mechanics on this thread, they are correct. 411A is not. If 411A was really a pilot, this type behavior would not be displayed here , by him, at A.net. I have never, ever, ever met a pilot this disgruntled at any of the 4 airlines I have worked for. OMG, seriously! All the pilots I have worked with have been nothing but courteous and very understanding with a professional attitude.

Quoting 411A (Reply 51):
Clearly, you are a 'junior' type.
We have no use for this type.,
Fact.

The industry can do without you, IMO. If you flew for my company, you would not last a month with us. Fact!

I would not touch any of your planes, that is if you do really work and fly for said company whatever it is, I would NOT touch any of your planes with a 10 foot pole, nor would I fly on them. This type of attitude you display scares the living daylights out of me, my A&P is probably scared to death, too!

I would suggest you change your attitude if you are really a pilot. What comes around, goes around. That can bite you in the ass later. This industry may be huge to a normal person outside, but this is a real, real small world. Fact.

Good Riddance!   

Anyone agree with me on this??
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
 
411A
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RE: Ultimate Authority Always With Captain?

Thu Apr 15, 2010 3:15 am

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 53):
Anyone agree with me on this??

A few might, however, it makes no difference to our continued operations.
We hire only professionals that are qualified, not amateurs.
And, it will remain as such.

In our company the Captain has the final say....as it absolutely should be.
 
AirframeAS
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RE: Ultimate Authority Always With Captain?

Thu Apr 15, 2010 4:49 am

Quoting 411A (Reply 54):
We hire only professionals that are qualified, not amateurs.

  This is a clear indication, to me, that you are not even a pilot, nor rated as one which tells me that something is fishy about you...... No pilot would never, ever say that to anyone on a forum or in public or private. It is not professional.

Quoting 411A (Reply 54):
...as it absolutely should be.

{redflag] I think the FAA would just love to have a chat with you and explain the FAR's to you.

Sorry, but I am not buying into any of your fraudulent claims. You, sir, are deeply, deeply Wrong 100%.

And as I have said before.......

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 53):
The industry can do without you, IMO.

   What comes around, goes around.

Moving on.......

[Edited 2010-04-14 21:57:03]
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
 
411A
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RE: Ultimate Authority Always With Captain?

Thu Apr 15, 2010 5:29 am

Quoting avt007 (Reply 52):
...since AF is a proper airline operating under EASA regulations.

Which just happens to have the highest hull loss record of any major European aircarrier.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 55):
I think the FAA would just love to have a chat with you and explain the FAR's to you.

It would make no difference whatsoever, as I don't fly jet airliners that are US registered.
However, we do, on occasion, fly to the USA.

I'm afraid some folks have a problem with authority.
The late President, Harry Truman, had a sign on his desk in the White House.
It read....'The Buck Stops Here'
Good 'ole Harry positively knew who was in charge, as General Douglas MacArthur found out....the hard way.
Is airline flying a team effort?
Most certainly, however....someone has to have the ultimate authority, and that person is the Captain.
With our operations, the regulatory authority says so, and the company says so.
 
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Faro
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Posts: 1974
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RE: Ultimate Authority Always With Captain?

Thu Apr 15, 2010 9:25 am

Quoting zeke (Reply 37):
Not really, a dispatcher is a defined under the FARs and applies to US operators, and the countries that also adopt the FAA standards. Most countries do not follow US or FAA regulations and do not require dispatchers. A dispatcher under FAA rules has a licence to perform that role, and has some influence on the progress of a flight, that is not a requirement in most countries around the world.
Quoting 411A (Reply 56):
With our operations, the regulatory authority says so, and the company says so.

Would much appreciate knowing which regulatory authority this is. Between countries where a dispatcher is legally necessary and others where he is not, I am surprised -as a layman- by the diversity of the regulations.

One would have thought that some type of ICAO or IATA directive would have imposed uniform dispatching regulations across all member countries but that apparently is not the case...

Faro
The chalice not my son
 
vc10
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RE: Ultimate Authority Always With Captain?

Thu Apr 15, 2010 10:40 am

The trouble with discussions like this is that everybody defends their original statements.

One thing I have learnt after a long career in aviation is that no two airlines never mind countries have the same rules and regulations.

However in the various airlines that I have worked for, that whilst the aircraft is on the ground the Captain always had the final word as to whether he would take the aircraft or not. So the aircraft could be signed off by maintenance , but the Captain could still refuse to take it [ Mind you he would have to have a good reason] .In fact as a F/E I have advised the Captain to do just that and he refused to take the aircraft, even though the defective part had been changed,or the MEL had been complied with.

However I have never heard of a Captain taking an aircraft, which maintenance has refused to sign out. I suppose it could happen if there was trouble at the airport , but again he would have to have a good reason.

Everybody else [Dispatcher,Crew, operations etc] to my mind is an advisor to the Captain, so that he can make decisions based on the best facts. However whilst the aircraft is on the ground the crew do not have to agree with his decision and can get off, which F/Es were encouraged to do at one airline I worked for.

littlevc10
 
411A
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RE: Ultimate Authority Always With Captain?

Thu Apr 15, 2010 7:40 pm

Quoting vc10 (Reply 58):
One thing I have learnt after a long career in aviation is that no two airlines never mind countries have the same rules and regulations

Precisely.
Some folks who reply here simply fail to realise that, in other airlines and/or under different regulatory authorities...it simply is done differently.
I hold (personally) eight different ATPL's (of which three are currently active), and in each case, they all have different requirements.
Likewise, I am the senior pilot in two different companies, and...they both operate to a different set of rules.

To those who dogmatically proclaim...'I do it this way at my company it is the only way it should be done, regardless'...I would say...you might like to look just slightly beyond the end of your nose.
 
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ManuCH
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RE: Ultimate Authority Always With Captain?

Thu Apr 15, 2010 8:13 pm

Quoting 411A (Reply 46):
Our airline operations specifications clearly state the the Captain has the absolute final authority regarding the dispatch, conduct, and responsibility for...the aircraft, and ALL other crew members assigned to the flight.

A question for you: in my country, when an airplane is grounded by MX as non-airworthy, but a pilot tries to take off nonetheless, he will be stopped by the airport authority, because the tower will not issue a take-off clearance.

Can you confirm that in the country where your company operates, a pilot can hop onto a non-signed-off, non-airworthy plane and take-off, without anyone stopping him? Will he be issued the take-off clearance by the tower, and won't there be any legal consequences for the pilot's license from the authorities?

That's a serious question, I really want to find out, because I'm a bit surprised - to say the least. But hey, we learn something new everyday.

[Edited 2010-04-15 13:14:01]
Never trust a statistic you didn't fake yourself
 
c5load
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RE: Ultimate Authority Always With Captain?

Thu Apr 15, 2010 8:27 pm

Quoting ManuCH (Reply 60):

I know in the military world, the aircraft commander does have final authority, however, if there is a legitimate write-up and the engineer, other crewmembers, and mx staff can second the write-up, then it is our duty not to follow the a/c commander's orders. I have actually witnessed it once.
"But this airplane has 4 engines, it's an entirely different kind of flying! Altogether"
 
411A
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RE: Ultimate Authority Always With Captain?

Thu Apr 15, 2010 9:58 pm

Quoting ManuCH (Reply 60):
Can you confirm that in the country where your company operates, a pilot can hop onto a non-signed-off, non-airworthy plane and take-off, without anyone stopping him? Will he be issued the take-off clearance by the tower, and won't there be any legal consequences for the pilot's license from the authorities?

A reasonable question.
The answer is no, the aircraft must be in an airworthy status.

We don't have this problem, because...both the Captain and our designated ground engineers keep our aircraft in an airworthy condition.
IE: they do their job, instead of making dogmatic statements, and thereby make fools of themselves.
And, it is my job as the fleet manager to see to it that this is accomplished.
That is why I'm paid the big bucks.
 
CosmicCruiser
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RE: Ultimate Authority Always With Captain?

Thu Apr 15, 2010 10:44 pm

Quoting 411A (Reply 62):
We don't have this problem, because...both the Captain and our designated ground engineers keep our aircraft in an airworthy condition.
IE: they do their job, instead of making dogmatic statements, and thereby make fools of themselves.
And, it is my job as the fleet manager to see to it that this is accomplished.
That is why I'm paid the big bucks.

Man, I don't know what to think here. I've always considered you a pretty experienced and professional poster but these diatribes have left me dumbfounded.    I'm not sure what to even say really not knowing what you & your engineers are really referring to. An airplane can be airworthy with lots of things broken (deferred) thus the MEL. I've only experienced a couple of circumstances where the a/c might be "airworthy" but the deferred items MAY come into play on my flight and therefore a dialog will exist between maint and me or flt ops. Will it crtitically delay the flt to make the repair and what are the real chances it may come into play. I've NEVER seen a situation where the capt would demand the plane fly and maint screams that it won't. NEVER. At this airline a pilot that flies a jet with any open maint write up will definitely be violated but I can't even imagine a situation that it would. Why? We're all in this game together maint has a job to do and I have a job to do. When they do their job best they can and I too, it's easy. Even the capt has rules to follow, at least at my airline.
 
avt007
Posts: 1989
Joined: Mon Jul 10, 2000 4:51 am

RE: Ultimate Authority Always With Captain?

Thu Apr 15, 2010 10:56 pm

Quoting 411A (Reply 62):
A reasonable question.
The answer is no, the aircraft must be in an airworthy status.

Finally! That's what we were all looking for. But then you say;

Quoting 411A (Reply 62):
both the Captain and our designated ground engineers keep our aircraft in an airworthy condition.

I don't understand that statement. Pilots can only make an aircraft unserviceable, they cannot return it to service (unless you want to talk MELs, which is different).
I suspect you have real issues with admitting your authority is not boundless. So unless you hold an AMEs licence, I don't see how that works. I could be wrong though, so please educate me.
 
speedracer1407
Posts: 330
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RE: Ultimate Authority Always With Captain?

Thu Apr 15, 2010 11:20 pm

Quoting 411A (Reply 54):
We hire only professionals that are qualified, not amateurs.
And, it will remain as such.

In our company the Captain has the final say....as it absolutely should be.
Quoting 411A (Reply 59):
To those who dogmatically proclaim...'I do it this way at my company it is the only way it should be done, regardless'...I would say...you might like to look just slightly beyond the end of your nose.

Surely you have the "experience" to see that you're the only one here dogmatically proclaiming anything. And that's nothing new for you.

With no context whatsoever, you peck out a minimally worded explanation of the way your company operates knowing full well that your tiny outfit, for better or worse, operates very differently from the rest of the world. It's laced with attitude and superiority rather than context and information, and then you're surprised when other experienced professionals on this site question you. Oh, and then you accuse them all of being too junior and unprofessional to understand.

The purpose of this forum is to communicate and inform, and you put so little effort into either, one wonders why you even bother. Everyone who reads this site regularly already knows that you think about the L-1011 and your despotic role as a captain. Do you have anything more useful to add? If your experience is as valuable as you think it is, and if you're going to post on here anyway, surely you have the experience to understand the value of communicating thoroughly and without arrogance for the benefit of the forum. Otherwise, why bother?

[Edited 2010-04-15 16:22:07]
Dassault Mercure: the plane that has Boeing and Airbus shaking in their boots.
 
411A
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RE: Ultimate Authority Always With Captain?

Thu Apr 15, 2010 11:26 pm

Quoting avt007 (Reply 64):
So unless you hold an AMEs licence,

Oddly enough, I do.
Surprised?

You shouldn't be, I know lots of airline pilots that hold this certification.
I can, offhand, think of at least half a dozen, one or two retired, the rest still active.
One (not myself) has held an Inspection Authorization for over thirty years....and signs my private airplane's logs every year, for its annual inspection.

Do not think that the guy, with lots of gray hair, sitting in the LHS is 'just a pilot'....many are qualifed in several aviation fields.
 
411A
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RE: Ultimate Authority Always With Captain?

Thu Apr 15, 2010 11:52 pm

Quoting speedracer1407 (Reply 65):
.... surely you have the experience to understand the value of communicating thoroughly and without arrogance for the benefit of the forum.

I have the experience to make short declaritive statements that are reasonably concise in their content, accurate as to the way I perceive the subject...without twaddling on, endlessly...the way some do, here.
If you don't like my style, you do not have to read, nor reply.
Simple as that.
 
MD11Engineer
Posts: 13899
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2003 5:25 am

RE: Ultimate Authority Always With Captain?

Fri Apr 16, 2010 1:47 pm

Quoting 411A (Reply 66):
Quoting avt007 (Reply 64):
So unless you hold an AMEs licence,

Oddly enough, I do.
Surprised?

You shouldn't be, I know lots of airline pilots that hold this certification.
I can, offhand, think of at least half a dozen, one or two retired, the rest still active.

This changes the whole matter, because then you are part of an absolute minority. 95% of the pilots I know (and I´ve worked for several airlines) haven´t got a clue about aircraft maintenance (and they freely admit it), not to mention a licence.
The licence allows you to take the responsibility for maintenance related decisions, and therefore you can sign a maintenance release yourself. It also means that the buck passes to you should you make a wrong decision (one which doesn´t put the aircraft into danger, but might well be illegal as far as the regulations go).

Jan

[Edited 2010-04-16 06:48:47]
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
avt007
Posts: 1989
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RE: Ultimate Authority Always With Captain?

Fri Apr 16, 2010 4:34 pm

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 68):
This changes the whole matter, because then you are part of an absolute minority. 95% of the pilots I know (and I´ve worked for several airlines) haven´t got a clue about aircraft maintenance

It may not change anything since, as usual, his "short declaritive statements" don't include enough detail to be useful. Does said licence cover the L1011? Is he authorized under the AMO to sign mtce releases? And when he makes these statements about Captains, is he strictly referring to himself, or any other Captain in this company, say one without an AME licence?

And no, I'm not surprised about the licence. Having been around myself, I have known pilots with AME licences, in airlines and elsewhere. It's quite common in the helicopter industry in Canada.
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Ultimate Authority Always With Captain?

Fri Apr 16, 2010 6:34 pm

Quoting avt007 (Reply 69):
And no, I'm not surprised about the licence. Having been around myself, I have known pilots with AME licences, in airlines and elsewhere. It's quite common in the helicopter industry in Canada.

Not so much among "heavy metal". Heck, even though ik consider myself to be a fair allrounder (systems, electrics, avionics, mostly out on the line), there are areas, like structures, where I like to consult with a specialist.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
avt007
Posts: 1989
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RE: Ultimate Authority Always With Captain?

Fri Apr 16, 2010 7:26 pm

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 70):
Not so much among "heavy metal". Heck, even though ik consider myself to be a fair allrounder (systems, electrics, avionics, mostly out on the line), there are areas, like structures, where I like to consult with a specialist.

Absolutely. While I have been trained in sheetmetal, and done some fairly basic jobs, I definitely appreciate having an expert to do the job for me. I am licenced for airframes, engines and avionics (M2 and E licence from Transport Canada) with my strongest suit being avionics.
There are lots of multi licenced people out there.

I've got a good story about one. I got sent up north to fix an F28 that had wing anti ice problems. Being northern Canada in the winter, they were grounded. By the time my partner and I got up there, this Captain had borrowed a screwdriver from someone, and removed the access panel we needed to get behind. This may seem like no big deal, but in his uniform, at night, in strong wnds and blowing snow, he removed 40-50 screws from the belly so that we could get the job done that much faster. Now that's respect and teamwork. I had another Captain buy me breakfast because I was again on a roadtrip fixing his aircraft and wasn't feeling well from the bumpy flight up.
All in all, I've had very good relationships with pilots.
 
411A
Posts: 1788
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RE: Ultimate Authority Always With Captain?

Fri Apr 16, 2010 8:04 pm

Quoting avt007 (Reply 69):
Does said licence cover the L1011? Is he authorized under the AMO to sign mtce releases? And when he makes these statements about Captains, is he strictly referring to himself, or any other Captain in this company, say one without an AME licence?

With the specific regulatory authority?
Yes.
Authorized to sign the maintenance release, by the specific regulatory authority?
Yes.
Other Captains so authorized?
One other.

Now, some folks might say...why would a pilot (especially a line Captain) be so qualified?
IE: What is the need?

The short answer is....
We are an adhoc charter company, and as such, truly have no 'home base' (altho we do have corporate offices in the specific AOC country)...and, we have (mostly) worldwide operating authority, including the EU (USA applied for, via 14CFR129, pending)...so, we need the utmost flexibility with operations.
ONLY in this way can we succeed.

Professionals, working together, all toward a common goal...safe and effective flight operations.
This..we have.

Flying the L1011 type.
IE: A truly fine airplane, provided it is maintained and flown by folks who positively...know how, with minimal delays.

Small problems?
Yes, a few.
Ground engineers?
We have plenty, with thirty years experience, on type.
Case closed.

Flight Engineers?
We have plenty, with at least twenty five years experience, on type.
A done deal.

Captains?
We have enough now, however....will need some in the near term.

First Officers?
A critical shortage now, and it is not likely to improve in the short term...near term...maybe.
 
gatorfan
Posts: 310
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RE: Ultimate Authority Always With Captain?

Fri Apr 16, 2010 8:38 pm

Assuming for the sake of argument the captain ignored company policy and operated the flight. Assume further that it was legal to do so. What sort of employment future do you think the captain who disobeys company policy will have with that company?
 
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zeke
Posts: 14845
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RE: Ultimate Authority Always With Captain?

Sat Apr 17, 2010 2:44 pm

Quoting avt007 (Reply 44):
You may want to read the below document. I have, and don't see where the Captain has any say in the matter.

The FARs do not apply most parts of the world, and foreign carriers operating into the US operate under FAR 129, not 121.

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 48):
This includes checks. Only a licenced engineer with an appropiate type rating can release an aircraft to service under EASA rules, no captain and no quality manager.

Not sure if that is all checks, I know like a 36 hr check should be signed off by an engineer, but transit stops could be conducted by flight crew, it is actually Airbus SOP for flight crew to do them, the procedure is in the FCOM.

As for other forms of maintenance, it depends under which regulations you are operating, for example in Australia, a pilot approved maintenance on a class b aircraft includes "Removal and installation of landing gear wheels, tyres and repair of pneumatic tubes" and a lot of other duties which would not be possible elsewhere.

http://www.casa.gov.au/wcmswr/_assets/main/download/caaps/ops/42zc.pdf

Also keep in mind a lot of the old school flight engineers that you find on the classic widebody aircraft are also qualified engineers/mechanics with a licence on type. Ground engineers used to get promoted to become a flight engineers. These days a lot of companies put junior pilots to drive the panel on something like a 727 as the first job in a new company.

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 48):
BTW I have noticed how many pilots are reluctant to accept an aircraft on the outbound leg (when they can go back home again), but are willing to fly (illegally) with opern defects to get home again.

That is like being delayed by 6 hours at your home port and then being asked to go into flight time discretion (i.e. total duty will exceed 18 hours) when you know there is a number of crew on standby. If they can fix the problem where the resources are available (spares, tools, engineers, hangers, crews) are, or even substitute an aircraft it is much better for everyone. I do not try and make like hard for engineers/mechanics at my home port, but I would like to think I can had over a defect free aircraft to the next crew, as that is what I like to receive.

I have not met anyone however willing to fly illegally, that is just dumb.

Quoting faro (Reply 57):
Would much appreciate knowing which regulatory authority this is. Between countries where a dispatcher is legally necessary and others where he is not, I am surprised -as a layman- by the diversity of the regulations.

One would have thought that some type of ICAO or IATA directive would have imposed uniform dispatching regulations across all member countries but that apparently is not the case...

Basically any airline in a country that does not follow FARs style rules would not need a dispatcher, countries like Japan, Taiwan, Israel, UAE, Saudi Arabia etc with very close links to the US, also have close regulatory links. That does not mean you will not find dispatchers outside these countries, I know in HKG we have some dispatchers with FAA certificates, they are here to dispatch FAA style carriers.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
411A
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RE: Ultimate Authority Always With Captain?

Sat Apr 17, 2010 5:18 pm

Well said, zeke... and I would strongly suggest that some of the younger readers here pay attention to your thoughts.
Air carriers are not like going into Sears and purchasing a pair of sox, where often times one size fits all....rather, each airline and indeed regulatory authority does it slightly differently.
 
avt007
Posts: 1989
Joined: Mon Jul 10, 2000 4:51 am

RE: Ultimate Authority Always With Captain?

Sat Apr 17, 2010 7:50 pm

Quoting 411A (Reply 75):
I would strongly suggest that some of the younger readers here pay attention

Once again you have a condescending point of view, 411A. If you treat your First Officers with such disdain, that might explain the shortage.
Zeke was able to make his points without snide coments, thanks for that, Zeke.

Quoting zeke (Reply 74):
The FARs do not apply most parts of the world, and foreign carriers operating into the US operate under FAR 129, not 121.

As I said earlier, I originally thougfht he was in the USA, due to his profile. I myself worked under the British CAA system in Africa. Many countries prefer EASA or TC, or CAA.

Quoting zeke (Reply 74):
As for other forms of maintenance, it depends under which regulations you are operating, for example in Australia, a pilot approved maintenance on a class b aircraft includes "Removal and installation of landing gear wheels, tyres and repair of pneumatic tubes" and a lot of other duties which would not be possible elsewhere.

Similar rules apply to non commercial aircraft in Canada. However, at our airline pilot elementary maintenance is restricted by government regulation to replacement of light bulbs, pulling and collaring CBs, minor system deactivation not requiring tools, such items as you'd find in the MEL. They have to be trained hands on to do these tasks as part of their ground school.

Quoting zeke (Reply 74):
BTW I have noticed how many pilots are reluctant to accept an aircraft on the outbound leg (when they can go back home again), but are willing to fly (illegally) with opern defects to get home again.

I've seen this many times too, and it's just human nature. Nothing illegal, but when it's pilots discretion, they're much more likely to take it home, than outbound. Unless of course outbound is to a nice sandy beach where it can go mechanical while they drink margaritas!
 
Quoting 411A (Reply 72):
With the specific regulatory authority?
Yes.
Authorized to sign the maintenance release, by the specific regulatory authority?
Yes.
Other Captains so authorized?
One other.

411A, that's great that you have this and I respect that, but you could have clarified this way back, rather than stirring the pot. Your rather unusual operation has no bearing on the original post, which was asking about conventional airline operations.
 
411A
Posts: 1788
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RE: Ultimate Authority Always With Captain?

Sat Apr 17, 2010 8:52 pm

Quoting avt007 (Reply 76):
Your rather unusual operation has no bearing on the original post, which was asking about conventional airline operations.

And, that original airline mentioned just happens to have the highest hull loss record amongst larg(er) airlines in Europe.
Indeed, if AirFrance was based elsewhere, I have no doubt it would be on the European blacklist.


Take a chance, fly Air France.
 
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zeke
Posts: 14845
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RE: Ultimate Authority Always With Captain?

Sun Apr 18, 2010 3:05 am

Quoting avt007 (Reply 76):
As I said earlier, I originally thougfht he was in the USA, due to his profile. I myself worked under the British CAA system in Africa. Many countries prefer EASA or TC, or CAA.

You find a lot of expat pilots from Southern Africa, Australia, USA, and Canada on the international job scene working for airlines outside the country of origin, EK would not exist without them. For reasons of either political instability or airlines closing down, it forces a lot of the pilots from those countries to look for work overseas, or look for another career and stay home.

Many countries that were former colonies of the British, French, Portuguese, and Spanish colonies tend to have aviation regulatory ties to their colonial past. Not aware of any TC ones.

Quoting avt007 (Reply 76):

Similar rules apply to non commercial aircraft in Canada. However, at our airline pilot elementary maintenance is restricted by government regulation to replacement of light bulbs, pulling and collaring CBs, minor system deactivation not requiring tools, such items as you'd find in the MEL. They have to be trained hands on to do these tasks as part of their ground school.

That is for a pilot, as I indicated earlier, many of the classic wide bodies either tend to carry a flight engineer with a licence on type, or carry and engineer. I have seen many cases in my past where all the flight crew was out there fixing something, flight crew can do other work if that work is supervised by an engineer. These days a lot of places I go the person who meets the aircraft is an unqualified mechanic, and they are being supervised by a single ground engineer who may be looking after 10 aircraft at once.

Quoting avt007 (Reply 76):
Your rather unusual operation has no bearing on the original post, which was asking about conventional airline operations.

I have flown other aircraft types before where an engineer does not sign off the aircraft every day, I have flown 50 or 100 hours without an engineer even looking at it. A daily inspection, a turn around, setting a refuel panel, are all tasks you will find flight crew doing in smaller operations.

The reason why larger airlines have all the extra overhead is that it improves efficiency. If the pilots just turn up, reviews the flight plan/weather/notams already printed out for them, jump on the aircraft and get it ready they can have longer "revenue" hours in the seat. The airline then can fly the crew longer, which means they can fly their aircraft longer, aircraft sitting on the ground do not generate revenue.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
User avatar
HAWK21M
Posts: 30067
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RE: Ultimate Authority Always With Captain?

Sun Apr 18, 2010 7:59 am

Never ever come accross a Pilot willing to take an Unairworthy Aircraft,which Mx has not cleared.Does not happen.Flt ops know Mx are more aware of the Maintence aspect of the snag in doubt.
If Mx decides its a NO-GO....There will be documents to back that up.

regds
MEL.
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
MD11Engineer
Posts: 13899
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2003 5:25 am

RE: Ultimate Authority Always With Captain?

Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:31 am

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 79):
Never ever come accross a Pilot willing to take an Unairworthy Aircraft,which Mx has not cleared.Does not happen.Flt ops know Mx are more aware of the Maintence aspect of the snag in doubt.
If Mx decides its a NO-GO....There will be documents to back that up.

regds
MEL.

Exactly. All airline Ops I worked in (both under EASA and FAA rules) , the ground engineer could declare an aircraft unairworthy (and had the legal duty to do so), but he´d have to back it up, else he´d be in for "tea and biscuits" with the chief engineer. But the captain could not just take an aircraft declared unairworthy by engineering.
The captain on the other hand could refuse to accept an aircraft which the ground engineer had released, if he had doubts concerning it´s airworthiness, but again, he´d better back up his decision or else he´d be in for a talk with the chief pilot.

Commercial airline management had no influence in these decisions ("Do you know how expensive it will be to cancel this flight?").

Also in all operations I worked in engineering and flight ops worked under two seperate chains of command, even though some pilots don´t seem to understand this. E.g. it took our base captain quite a while to understand that we were not his subordinates (like the pilots and cabin crew), but that we came under the the orders of the chief engineer and the director of engineering (additionally we are being supervised by an independent quality assurance department, which is directly subordinate to the accountable manager of the airline), and not the director of flight operations.
There is a purpose in seperating the different branches, to prevent "holes in the cheese slices from lining up" (Those who did a human factors course will know what I´m talking about) .

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
User avatar
Faro
Topic Author
Posts: 1974
Joined: Sun Aug 12, 2007 1:08 am

RE: Ultimate Authority Always With Captain?

Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:46 am

Quoting 411A (Reply 77):
Indeed, if AirFrance was based elsewhere, I have no doubt it would be on the European blacklist.

Take a chance, fly Air France

I would think that is a little harsh, especially the blacklist claim, would you happen to have the data to back up that opinion. I doubt that Air France has *significantly* more hull losses -discounting freak incidents like the A340 which caught fire during maintenance IIRC- than other major operators, and significantly is the operative word. Year to year fluctuations are to be expected too.

The question is therefore whether Air France has a sustained track record of significantly higher hull losses than other major operators. If that is the case, then I would indeed stop flying with them.

Faro

[Edited 2010-04-18 01:47:56]
The chalice not my son
 
777236ER
Posts: 12213
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2001 7:10 am

RE: Ultimate Authority Always With Captain?

Sun Apr 18, 2010 1:49 pm

411a would know a lot about the EU blacklist, given that the 'airline' he flies for is on it.

No civilised country would ever let 411a's 'airline' or rustbucket L1011s fly there.
Your bone's got a little machine
 
Thrawn
Posts: 45
Joined: Fri Mar 15, 2002 2:24 am

RE: Ultimate Authority Always With Captain?

Sun Apr 18, 2010 5:28 pm

411A I would love to have you as a Captain and have this discussion with you about an AOG aircraft
with a defect that is no-go.

You maybe a Captain on the ground but until I or another qualified engineer signs the release that aircraft
will not be going anywhere, Fullstop no if or buts!

I have only ever met one pilot that holds an ATPL and FAA/EASA license current on type and he was never ever allowed to sign the release to his own aircraft.
So unless you own the aircraft, have a valid ATPL, a valid MX license and have the country that your operate froms licensing authority in you back pocket i think you have been drinking to much coffee!

Have you ever heard of Human Factors, probably not from what I have read!

You can bully your quality manager/chief engineer all you like I just hope he has the balls
to tell you that you are wrong, or are you ever wrong? Because to me your not a Captain but an egotistical bully
that has no place in modern aviation
I have over 20 years experience (does that make me a junior to you) and have never met anyone as a Captain that has your self importance and ego

You might run a safe efficient operation according to what you say, but to the rest of that live in
the real world of EASA, FAA, CASA etc think that you are very wrong

You and your ragtag, tinpot outfit can drag yourselves around the world, i just hope that you don't kill anyone
in the process

I really hope everything that you have written has been a joke, the aviation world needs PROFESSIONALS not cowboys and your sir have the biggest 10 gallon hat I have ever read about!
 
AirframeAS
Posts: 9811
Joined: Thu Feb 05, 2004 3:56 pm

RE: Ultimate Authority Always With Captain?

Sun Apr 18, 2010 6:29 pm

Quoting 411A (Reply 72):

You could have said all of that much, much earlier in the thread instead of having to be flamed in the process in order for us to get that info. I assume you have already ticked off some of our members here.....

However, I still don't think you are a pilot........nor an engineer or an A&P. I think you are just some guy online stirring the pot with us and thinking that you are the one and only....God.

Quoting 411A (Reply 75):
Well said, zeke... and I would strongly suggest that some of the younger readers here pay attention to your thoughts.

I am offended by this statement 100%. Keep in mind that some A.net members are actually A&P's (like myself), pilots, dispatchers, FA's, rampers, etc etc that roam the Tech/Ops forum. Don't talk to us as if we are stupid because there are a lot of intelligent folks on this site that has been in this industry for ages.

Quoting 411A (Reply 75):
Air carriers are not like going into Sears and purchasing a pair of sox, where often times one size fits all....

I think everyone knows this. No need for childish statements.

Maybe you should, 411A, listen to some of our A&P folks here. They are the first and last line of defense when it comes to aircraft maintenance. They know the planes better than anyone else in their operation. With you coming onto this thread with that cocky attitude, you insult the intelligence of these people and my co-workers.

Putting in the AF example is unjust and unfair. Keep in mind, 411A, that every airline has its own problems (hell, WN has theirs as well!) and there is no perfect air carrier like you put your imaginary air carrier that you claim to work for is perfect.

Get real, get on with reality. The A&P's that I have worked alongside with (and still do) don't have time for this kind of childish BS.

Ego at best, I tell ya! That is all it is by you.   
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
 
MD11Engineer
Posts: 13899
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2003 5:25 am

RE: Ultimate Authority Always With Captain?

Sun Apr 18, 2010 6:51 pm

Quoting Thrawn (Reply 83):
So unless you own the aircraft, have a valid ATPL, a valid MX license and have the country that your operate froms licensing authority in you back pocket i think you have been drinking to much coffee!

If he is really flying for the airline I´m suspecting (after all there aren´t THAT many L-1011 operators around anymore and I doubt that he flies for the RAF, or for a Portuguese carrier, which operates under EASA rules), then this airline is located in one of the poorest sub-Saharan countries of Africa. This country is pretty far down on the Transparency International index of perceived corruption. So it is quite possible that the owner of said airline has the local aviation authority in his pocket.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
AirframeAS
Posts: 9811
Joined: Thu Feb 05, 2004 3:56 pm

RE: Ultimate Authority Always With Captain?

Sun Apr 18, 2010 7:00 pm

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 85):

He couldn't even cite the country that he "operates" out of or the aviation authority that governs his country.   

Makes me wonder.........   
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
 
AirframeAS
Posts: 9811
Joined: Thu Feb 05, 2004 3:56 pm

RE: Ultimate Authority Always With Captain?

Sun Apr 18, 2010 7:21 pm

Quoting Thrawn (Reply 83):
Have you ever heard of Human Factors

I have! There was a class at my AMT school on that exact subject that we were required to take as a condition of graduation. It was a huge, HUGE eye opener, I tell ya!
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
 
411A
Posts: 1788
Joined: Mon Nov 12, 2001 10:34 am

RE: Ultimate Authority Always With Captain?

Mon Apr 19, 2010 1:01 am

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 84):
I am offended by this statement 100%.

Offended or not...not my problem.
There seem to be a few maintenance guys here who think that airline operations all revolve around THEM.

Nope, sorry, not so.

Lets look at reality.
Pilots are needed to fly the airplanes.
Mechanics are needed to maintain/repair them.
Cabin crew are a dime a dozen and (generally) a low cost entity.

Most other services can be contracted out,including aircraft maintenance....so company mechanics (with some exceptions) aren't actually needed after all.

Two items that an airline absolutely DOES need are proper funding and passenger and/or cargo freight marketing expertise.

Mechanics provide neither of these services, so they simply are not considered top drawer in the management chain.

To review...

Pilots
Funding
Marketing

The top three, without a doubt.
 
avt007
Posts: 1989
Joined: Mon Jul 10, 2000 4:51 am

RE: Ultimate Authority Always With Captain?

Mon Apr 19, 2010 2:34 am

This thread has become truly entertaining. You are digging a hole so deep I imagine the sun doesn't reach you any more.
Carry on 411A, I haven't had this much fun since I came across a website for people who still believe the Earth is flat.   
 
B747FE
Posts: 217
Joined: Mon Jun 21, 2004 11:09 pm

RE: Ultimate Authority Always With Captain?

Mon Apr 19, 2010 2:50 am

Quoting avt007 (Reply 89):
Carry on 411A, I haven't had this much fun since I came across a website for people who still believe the Earth is flat.

I haven't had this much fun since this thread:

Who Is "Driving" During Taxi? (by Goinv Feb 21 2005 in Tech Ops)?


Regards,
B747FE.
"Flying is more than a sport and more than a job; flying is pure passion and desire, which fill a lifetime"
 
411A
Posts: 1788
Joined: Mon Nov 12, 2001 10:34 am

RE: Ultimate Authority Always With Captain?

Mon Apr 19, 2010 3:13 am

Quoting avt007 (Reply 89):
I haven't had this much fun since I came across a website for people who still believe the Earth is flat.

Glad you're having fun.

In reality, however, many technically mechanically inclined folks here have absolutely NO idea about airline management, costs, marketing nor detailed flight operations, from a management perspective.

I try to educate, if you don't want to get an education, feel free to not reply.
Otherwise, sidewise off-topic unreasonable comments are generally ignored.
 
Thrawn
Posts: 45
Joined: Fri Mar 15, 2002 2:24 am

RE: Ultimate Authority Always With Captain?

Mon Apr 19, 2010 3:23 am

Its not that we think that the world operates around MX

What you dont seem to realize is that the world doesn't operate around the Captain
any more and I think that your having a hard time getting used to this.

Anybody can be a pilot these days, in the old days you required skill and finesse to control the
aircraft now all you have become is glorified bus drivers that punch buttons on computers.

It must break your heart to know that some f/o's and captains on some airlines are paid so little compared
to MX and even cabin crew can be paid more.

There is an old joke that in the future the flight deck will just have 2 buttons, a pilot and a dog. the buttons are land and take off that even a dog can operate, the dog is there to bite the pilot so he doesn't touch anything and the pilot is there to feed the dog

Captain 411a your a dinosaur and when your beloved L1011 is finally on the scrap heap so will you be, the rest of us will just keep getting dirty oiling those engines  
 
411A
Posts: 1788
Joined: Mon Nov 12, 2001 10:34 am

RE: Ultimate Authority Always With Captain?

Mon Apr 19, 2010 3:28 am

Quoting Thrawn (Reply 92):
It must break your heart to know that some f/o's and captains on some airlines are paid so little compared
to MX and even cabin crew can be paid more.

Yes, I cry all the way to the bank, to deposit my management salary.
The only two that make more in my company is the marketing director and the CEO.
And, not by very much.

Thanks for your concern, however.
 
tdscanuck
Posts: 8572
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2006 7:25 am

RE: Ultimate Authority Always With Captain?

Mon Apr 19, 2010 4:35 am

Quoting 411A (Reply 88):
There seem to be a few maintenance guys here who think that airline operations all revolve around THEM.

In a sense, it does. Frustrating as it may be (and, believe me, I know this frustration), a captain can't do squat with an un-released aircraft.

Until, and only until, MX says the aircraft is good to go, the captain is well and truly screwed. Due to unique airline and regulatory considerations, you may be in a situation where you can serve as both maintenance and flight crew, but it's you in your *maintenance* role that releases the jet, not the flight crew.

Quoting 411A (Reply 88):
Lets look at reality.
Pilots are needed to fly the airplanes.
Mechanics are needed to maintain/repair them.
Cabin crew are a dime a dozen and (generally) a low cost entity.

Generally true. But it's a symbiotic relationship...without maintenance, a pilot doesn't have an aircraft that's legal to fly. Without pilots, the airline doesn't make any money and everybody (maintenance and pilots and everyone else) loses their job.

Pilots sometimes hate maintenance because they don't give them a service-ready aircraft. Maintenance sometimes hates pilots because they write up problems that need solving. But *everyone* is far (far far far) better off when maintenance and pilots work together because, without both working properly, the whole enterprise is dead in the water.

Tom.
 
AirframeAS
Posts: 9811
Joined: Thu Feb 05, 2004 3:56 pm

RE: Ultimate Authority Always With Captain?

Mon Apr 19, 2010 6:58 am

Quoting 411A (Reply 91):
In reality, however, many technically mechanically inclined folks here have absolutely NO idea about airline management, costs, marketing nor detailed flight operations, from a management perspective.

So you are saying a pilot would know more about revenue management than a mechanic does? Am I understanding you correctly?

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 94):
But it's a symbiotic relationship...without maintenance, a pilot doesn't have an aircraft that's legal to fly.

  

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 94):
But *everyone* is far (far far far) better off when maintenance and pilots work together because, without both working properly, the whole enterprise is dead in the water.

   A good example would be this thread.

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 94):
Until, and only until, MX says the aircraft is good to go, the captain is well and truly screwed.

No aircraft until I give it a go. If my paperwork is not completed by the time the doors close, then the aircraft is not airworthy until that logbook is signed and released. If the pilots don't like it, too bad. I have yet to encounter a pilot who pitched a fit because of a descriptancy that was being worked on or logbook issues at departure time.

Our pilots are very understanding. My question to 411A is, why aren't you??
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
 
411A
Posts: 1788
Joined: Mon Nov 12, 2001 10:34 am

RE: Ultimate Authority Always With Captain?

Mon Apr 19, 2010 8:08 am

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 95):
Our pilots are very understanding. My question to 411A is, why aren't you??

Because I don't know the first thing about your company, nor do I especially care too.
A simple concept to understand.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 95):
No aircraft until I give it a go. If my paperwork is not completed by the time the doors close, then the aircraft is not airworthy until that logbook is signed and released. If the pilots don't like it, too bad.

You would not be allowed to work in our company.

Also, a simple concept to understand.

You have aptly demonstrated the type of individual mechanic that apparently feels that the world revolves around themselves.
 
User avatar
HAWK21M
Posts: 30067
Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2001 10:05 pm

RE: Ultimate Authority Always With Captain?

Mon Apr 19, 2010 10:53 am

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 80):
There is a purpose in seperating the different branches, to prevent "holes in the cheese slices from lining up" (Those who did a human factors course will know what I´m talking about)

Sure Human Factors is an Important topic these days.

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 80):
that we came under the the orders of the chief engineer and the director of engineering (additionally we are being supervised by an independent quality assurance department

True

Quoting 411A (Reply 88):
There seem to be a few maintenance guys here who think that airline operations all revolve around THEM.

No one is saying that.No single department or Individual can make an airline run,Its a tea effort by sticking to rules & SOPs.

Quoting 411A (Reply 88):
Most other services can be contracted out,including aircraft maintenance....so company mechanics (with some exceptions) aren't actually needed after all.

The Outsourced Mechanical team will need to have their work certified under regulatory standards too.How does that help  
Quoting 411A (Reply 91):
n reality, however, many technically mechanically inclined folks here have absolutely NO idea about airline management, costs, marketing nor detailed flight operations, from a management perspective.

Don't generalize.....You might just be surprised.

On the topic.No Pilot can fly an aircraft not certified by Mx.....Thats the bottom line.
Also Mx person grounding the Aircraft will have Documentation to back the decision.Its only when Mx hands over the Aircraft to Flt ops,can the Flt crew decide its future action.

regds
MEL.
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
411A
Posts: 1788
Joined: Mon Nov 12, 2001 10:34 am

RE: Ultimate Authority Always With Captain?

Mon Apr 19, 2010 3:36 pm

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 97):
On the topic.No Pilot can fly an aircraft not certified by Mx.....Thats the bottom line.
Also Mx person grounding the Aircraft will have Documentation to back the decision.Its only when Mx hands over the Aircraft to Flt ops,can the Flt crew decide its future action.

With stipulations, I would agree.
However, our operation is just slightly different than most...we carry our ground engineers with us, everywhere.
All three.
And, they do much more than just sign the technical log.
For example, in addition to their other normal duties, they supervise refueling, open and close ALL baggage doors, carefully supervise cargo/baggage loading, and on occasion, even help with passenger loading...IE: on some flights, supervise that passenger carry-on bags deemed too large for the cabin, are stowed in the aft baggage compartment.
Signing the technical is only a small part of their duties, and altho necessary, it is only necessary once each 24 hour period, extendable to 36 hours, in some defined circumstances.
Each one of these folks has over twenty five year experience in their related field, an none of them would even think if saying something like....

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 95):
No aircraft until I give it a go. If my paperwork is not completed by the time the doors close, then the aircraft is not airworthy until that logbook is signed and released. If the pilots don't like it, too bad.

This log is usually signed well before I arrive at the airplane, as the ground engineers travel to the airplane well before the FD crew does.

We are an-ahoc charter company, and malcontent/obstructionist mechanics (ground engineers) simply would have NO place in our organisation.
 
AirframeAS
Posts: 9811
Joined: Thu Feb 05, 2004 3:56 pm

RE: Ultimate Authority Always With Captain?

Mon Apr 19, 2010 6:02 pm

Quoting 411A (Reply 96):
You would not be allowed to work in our company.

Why would I ever want to after reading your posts? However, the reverse is true: with your attitude, you wouldn't last a month in our company.

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 97):
The Outsourced Mechanical team will need to have their work certified under regulatory standards too.

  

Quoting 411A (Reply 98):
This log is usually signed well before I arrive at the airplane, as the ground engineers travel to the airplane well before the FD crew does.

If there are no mishaps, yes. But if there is a problem when the pilot arrives at the aircraft and the log is not signed off, by me, then the plane is not going anywhere. Our pilots know this. It is what it is.

Quoting 411A (Reply 98):
We are an-ahoc charter company, and malcontent/obstructionist mechanics (ground engineers) simply would have NO place in our organisation.

I don't think you really work for any air carrier whatsoever, period. I think you making this stuff up as you go while stirring the pot. Why don't you just give it up? You can't even say which country you operate out of nor the carrier you work for.

Says a lot.    You have been p'owned by us.
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