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411A
Posts: 1788
Joined: Mon Nov 12, 2001 10:34 am

RE: Ultimate Authority Always With Captain?

Mon Apr 19, 2010 7:35 pm

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 99):
You have been p'owned by us.

Whatever that means.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 99):
I don't think you really work for any air carrier whatsoever, period. I think you making this stuff up as you go while stirring the pot. Why don't you just give it up? You can't even say which country you operate out of nor the carrier you work for.

The part...'I don't think' appears to be quite accurate.

In addition, I mentioned before that I work for two charter aircarriers, one in the eastern hemisphere, one in the western hemisphere.
Both presently profitable.

In short, considering your previous comments, you appear to be mearly a juvenile...at best.
How very sad for your present company...such as it might be.
 
seven3seven
Posts: 294
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RE: Ultimate Authority Always With Captain?

Tue Apr 20, 2010 3:18 am

Wow. 411A sounds like a complete douche of a pilot to fly with. Must be a joy for your co-workers.

I'd be interested to know why you fly for some 3rd rate supplemental outfit. Although I probably already know the answer
My views are mine alone and are not that of any of my fellow employees, officers, or directors at my company
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Ultimate Authority Always With Captain?

Tue Apr 20, 2010 7:48 am

Quoting 411A (Reply 98):

And, they do much more than just sign the technical log.

Signing the Tech log is only part of the job...Completing the checks as per the schedule due,including servicing [Fuel/oil/Hydraulics] is part of the check schedule.

Your comment of the Ground Engineer helping out in other duties,that would be a helping hand to other departments & not his regular work.Time permitting even AMEs/AMTs do assist our collegues but its in no way part of our job.

Even here Mx gets the Aircraft ready well before departure time,informs Flt despatch & the message reaches Flt ops.If there is a snag,there is no clearence from Mx.

Bottom line is Until Mx hands over the Aircraft to Flt ops....It stays with Mx responsibility.

regds
MEL.
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
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Faro
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RE: Ultimate Authority Always With Captain?

Tue Apr 20, 2010 8:16 am

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 94):
Quoting 411A (Reply 88):
There seem to be a few maintenance guys here who think that airline operations all revolve around THEM
Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 94):
you may be in a situation where you can serve as both maintenance and flight crew, but it's you in your *maintenance* role that releases the jet, not the flight crew.

I think that neatly sums up the discussion. In the exceptional case where one is simultaneously juggling with two caps of Mx and flight crew, the Mx role will prevail over that of captain when it comes to release. I think that everyone agrees that the Mx authority has and will always have the final say on release, whether it is incarnate in the person of the captain or not.

Faro

[Edited 2010-04-20 01:33:19]
The chalice not my son
 
MQTmxguy
Posts: 129
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RE: Ultimate Authority Always With Captain?

Tue Apr 20, 2010 1:29 pm

Wow, I should have been to bed long ago, but I haven't read such a gripping thread in ages.

I'm going to take a stab at summing this up for 411A where others have apparently failed (not for lack of valiant effort.)

The mechanic/captain relationship is not an adversarial one nor is anyone claiming it is. I highly doubt any of my A&P/AME colleagues here make a habit of snatching the logbook and writing something up for the sake of ego stroking. I have indeed encountered some ancy flight crews before, but never was there any thought or suggestion of trying to dispatch the aircraft before all technical and legal issues had been addressed and signed off by the appropriate individual (In fact I have found flight crews to be VERY astute at finding uncrossed T's and undotted I's)

Every professional pilot I have met has been concerned first and foremost with the safety of his/her aircraft, and arguing with or trying to bully MX would not be conducive to this and consequently I have never seen it happen. My job is to hand the crew a safe and legally airworthy aircraft. The crews know this, and they are putting their faith in me that I would never knowingly give them or allow them to operate an unsafe/illegal aircraft. This is why even though I have all the authority I need (both through company regs and the FAA, and would be 100% backed up by both) to ground an A/C, no crew I have encountered has tried to test it. Why in God's name would they? They're the one's flyin the damn thing and if something goes wrong there's nowhere to pull over in the sky! I tell them it can't fly yet, and they say OK (sometimes with a sob story about how this is the last day of their trip and they're le tired and wanna go home blah blah blah . And once I hand the A/C over to them, it's the Captain's bird.

In the real world of legitimate operators, a MX delay goes something like this:

Hangar: Either a check, inspection, or repair is taking longer than expected for any myriad of reasons. The crew is informed of the delay and given an ETA of alpha one status if possible. The crew then waits patiently for the aircraft.

At the gate: If a discrepancy can be deferred I defer it, then if the captain and dispatch are satisfied, the aircraft departs. If I can fix the problem at the gate I do so, sign the log book, hand it to the captain, he flies the plane. If the discrepancy cannot be resolved at the gate and the aircraft must go to the hangar for repairs, I politely inform the captain, who then promptly relinquishes the aircraft.

It's really that simple. We both have very specialized and important jobs. I would never try to tell a pilot how to fly, and a pilot would never try to tell me how to make the aircraft ready to fly.

Quoting 411A (Reply 88):
Offended or not...not my problem.
There seem to be a few maintenance guys here who think that airline operations all revolve around THEM.


Mechanics provide neither of these services, so they simply are not considered top drawer in the management chain.

To review...

Pilots
Funding
Marketing

The top three, without a doubt.

And if your bottom drawer MX converts a very expensive aircraft into a smoking hole in the ground will your management chain then take notice? Not to mention if I were you I'd be more worried about my own ass than the financial returns of investing in aircraft maintenance. And your estimation of the worth of a pilot over a mechanic would seem to be unfounded as both require personnel who have made an investment in education, skill, and licensing. Plus where I work pilot and AMT payscales are pretty comparable, In fact I make more than many pilots with more company seniority.

Quoting 411A (Reply 51):
Yup, not only fired, expunged from the company.
Clearly, you are a 'junior' type.
We have no use for this type.,
Fact.

Quoting avt007 (Reply 50):
BTW, you haven't answered my questions on airworthiness.

Certainly have, previously, and...I have the specific qualifications to do so.
And, the specific regulatoty authority fully agrees.

I firmly suggest you bottle up your attitude and try to sell it elsewhere...as it won't sell here.
IE: not with those whom have long gone before
Quoting 411A (Reply 77):
And, that original airline mentioned just happens to have the highest hull loss record amongst larg(er) airlines in Europe.
Indeed, if AirFrance was based elsewhere, I have no doubt it would be on the European blacklist.


Take a chance, fly Air France

Your a "professional" you say? Because for the life of me I can't find any professionalism in any of your quotes. Honestly it read's like either an angry 15 y/o, or someone with some kind of severe complex. You might think about reading your own posts and reconsider who needs to "bottle up their attitude". The more you post things like this and the more you come up with licenses to fit the argument and weird "I'm in a really special company in a really special country that says I'm the boss of everything" assertions, the more I tend to think AirframeAS is right or close to right about you.

Quoting faro (Thread starter):
If he had elected to take off before Paris’s Ok (to avoid breaching duty time limit for example), I imagine it would go against AF SOP, but would it nonetheless be legal?
Quoting faro (Reply 103):
I think that neatly sums up the discussion. In the exceptional case where one is simultaneously juggling with two caps of Mx and flight crew, the Mx role will prevail over that of captain when it comes to release. I think that everyone agrees that the Mx authority has and will always have the final say on release, whether it is incarnate in the person of the captain or not

Yeah, you pretty much got the gist of it. Any number of entities (MX, crew, MOC, dispatch) can prevent a departure, but once she leaves the ground the captain is ultimately responsible for safety of flight.

[Edited 2010-04-20 07:11:01]
Well at least we can all take comfort in the fact that NW will never retire their DC-9s
 
411A
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RE: Ultimate Authority Always With Captain?

Tue Apr 20, 2010 4:20 pm

Quoting faro (Reply 103):
Any number of entities (MX, crew, MOC, dispatch) can prevent a departure, but once she leaves the ground the captain is ultimately responsible for safety of flight.

In most airlines, correct.

Ours, however, is slightly different.
Due to some of the more remote locations served, with odd-hours scheduling many times required, our airline is arranged in a vertical profile.
IE:
All subordinate members of the crew, which include the First Officer, the Flight Engineer, the Cabin Supervisor, the remaining cabin crew members, the Purser, and all three ground engineers (which travel with us all the time) report directly to the Captain, and further, the Captain makes all decisions regarding the dispatch of the flight.
The Captain, and the Captain ONLY will determine when to depart., subject to normal ATC/weather delays, etc.

The approved specific operations specifications issued reflect this, clearly and concisely.
Therefore, it is my job to ensure that the Captains selected by our company are mature, very experienced individuals necessary to operate within our approved guidelines.

It would appear that a few here might disagree with our method of operation, however, it is what it is, and no changes are expected.

What we do not have, however, are individuals such as this...

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 95):
No aircraft until I give it a go. If my paperwork is not completed by the time the doors close, then the aircraft is not airworthy until that logbook is signed and released. If the pilots don't like it, too bad.

They would not be tolerated, either by myself nor other senior company management.
 
tdscanuck
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RE: Ultimate Authority Always With Captain?

Tue Apr 20, 2010 5:22 pm

Quoting 411A (Reply 105):
What we do not have, however, are individuals such as this...

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 95):
No aircraft until I give it a go. If my paperwork is not completed by the time the doors close, then the aircraft is not airworthy until that logbook is signed and released. If the pilots don't like it, too bad.

You do have those individuals; it's just that, in the case of your particular operation, that individual is the captain.

Since you've got maintenance and flight authority vested in the same person, you still have an absolute buck-stop vis a vis maintenance, it just happens to be the captain. As I read your post if your maintenance leader (the captain) says that the plane is no good to fly due to maintenance reasons, your first officer (a pilot) can't override that decision. Which is *exactly* what everyone has been saying.

Tom.
 
411A
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RE: Ultimate Authority Always With Captain?

Tue Apr 20, 2010 5:44 pm

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 106):
Since you've got maintenance and flight authority vested in the same person, you still have an absolute buck-stop vis a vis maintenance, it just happens to be the captain. As I read your post if your maintenance leader (the captain) says that the plane is no good to fly due to maintenance reasons, your first officer (a pilot) can't override that decision.

Precisely.

In addition, if the CEO calls* and is having extreme pressure from the customer to get the flight going, if I say ...'NO, not until we are fully ready' ...there is absolutely no argument from him...nor anyone else.

*We use AT&T worldwide services, the best in the business for international telecommunications.
In my personal experience...not the cheapest, but the best.
 
nws2002
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RE: Ultimate Authority Always With Captain?

Tue Apr 20, 2010 5:47 pm

Quoting 411A (Reply 105):
In most airlines, correct.

Ours, however, is slightly different.
Due to some of the more remote locations served, with odd-hours scheduling many times required, our airline is arranged in a vertical profile.

The only thing I worry about with that setup is having all of the responsibility rest with one person. Pilots, maintenance, and dispatch are a check and balance system in most operations. All to go, one to say no.

I'm sure your safety director and others have crunched the numbers though and decided it's worthwhile to you because it increases operational efficiency in exchange for the second set of eyes provided by maintenance control and dispatch. Remote locations and unreliable communications could make the difference and require a captain to be the one responsible for it all.
 
AirframeAS
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RE: Ultimate Authority Always With Captain?

Tue Apr 20, 2010 6:54 pm

Quoting 411A (Reply 100):
The part...'I don't think' appears to be quite accurate.

So I am correct. You continue to spin your words when you say this....

Quoting 411A (Reply 100):
In addition, I mentioned before that I work for two charter aircarriers, one in the eastern hemisphere, one in the western hemisphere.

I have a hard time believing this. You can't work for the competition. All airlines are like that.

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 106):

I agree, however, this is the Real World we are talking about. Not some Playstation game or Airline Manager on FB or a fantasy world that 411A thinks it is.

Quoting MQTmxguy (Reply 104):
I highly doubt any of my A&P/AME colleagues here make a habit of snatching the logbook and writing something up for the sake of ego stroking.

We don't do that at our airline. We ask for the logbook to see if any defects were noted, but we don't add anything in there unless it is necessary to do so such as oil level documentation, etc etc...

Quoting MQTmxguy (Reply 104):
the more I tend to think AirframeAS is right or close to right about you.

I can spot this stuff a mile away. And oh, I don't like being lied to either. People who interact with me knows this. Lie to me once, the gloves come off and the disrespect begins. And it has worked for me.

I don't care if I dislike someone because of their personality or whatever. Just don't lie to me, I won't lie to you. I will work with you, but just don't lie. Treat me how you want me to treat you. That is how my work ethic is. It has worked very well for me.

Quoting 411A (Reply 105):
They would not be tolerated, either by myself nor other senior company management.

Wanna bet? Talk to an FAA Inspector at the local FSDO. It's my own ass that I am covering to ensure that our pilots get the most out of their aircraft that is safe, reliable, safe, airworthy, safe and in a brand new condition aircraft as possible. Oh, did I mention safe?

Quoting nws2002 (Reply 108):
The only thing I worry about with that setup is having all of the responsibility rest with one person.

+1   

Quoting nws2002 (Reply 108):
Pilots, maintenance, and dispatch are a check and balance system in most operations.

   Which means everyone needs to be working together, on the ground, to provide a safe flight for all involved. See my signature on the bottom of my posts.
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Ultimate Authority Always With Captain?

Tue Apr 20, 2010 8:35 pm

Quoting 411A (Reply 105):
and all three ground engineers (which travel with us all the time) report directly to the Captain

Why should they.Arn't they functioning on Ground.In flight they are just Pax.Shouldn't they report to the Head of Mx.After all they are declaring an Aircraft airworthy.

Quoting 411A (Reply 105):

They would not be tolerated, either by myself nor other senior company management.

Even if the Aircraft is unairworthy & the AME/AMT decides its not safe.I find that surprising.

regds
MEL.
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
CosmicCruiser
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RE: Ultimate Authority Always With Captain?

Tue Apr 20, 2010 9:52 pm

TDSCanuk, AirframeAS, MQTmxguy and Hawk21M,

You guys posted some accurate and pertinent info but just give up on this Bozo. You're arguing with a sign post. We all know what really works in the real airlines though we aren't good enough for his. I guess I'm lucky! I've sat here 3 times starting to write my 2 cents worth and each time decided it wasn't worth it. I salute you all for your effort. I fly friday and I'll be sure to thank our maint guys for their great work keeping the jets flying. I'm sure it's different when your co. has 300 jets vs. 2 or 3. CC
 
YYZatcboy
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RE: Ultimate Authority Always With Captain?

Tue Apr 20, 2010 11:36 pm

Just wanted to chime in with a follow up to my comment about wanting to be a dispatcher. In the last 5 days I have passed both of the Transport Canada Dispatcher Exams, so I'm well on my way now.  

Keep this thread going, it's pretty funny and educational. Thanks for the great replies MX guys.
DH1/3/4 MD11/88 L1011 A319/20/21/30/50/80 717 727 735/6/7/8/9 744 762/3 77E/W 788/789 E40/75/90 CRJ/700/705 CC150
J/S DH8D 736/7/8 763
 
411A
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RE: Ultimate Authority Always With Captain?

Wed Apr 21, 2010 1:20 am

Quoting YYZatcboy (Reply 114):
Just wanted to chime in with a follow up to my comment about wanting to be a dispatcher. In the last 5 days I have passed both of the Transport Canada Dispatcher Exams, so I'm well on my way now.

The very best of luck to you, congratulations.
 
Goldenshield
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RE: Ultimate Authority Always With Captain?

Wed Apr 21, 2010 1:29 am

Quoting YYZatcboy (Reply 114):
Just wanted to chime in with a follow up to my comment about wanting to be a dispatcher. In the last 5 days I have passed both of the Transport Canada Dispatcher Exams, so I'm well on my way now.

Congrats. Remember, you now hold a license to learn. What they teach in the schools is just the tip of the iceberg. Everything else is learned through years of experience.
Two all beef patties, special sauce, lettuce, cheese, pickles, onions on a sesame seed bun.
 
AirframeAS
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RE: Ultimate Authority Always With Captain?

Wed Apr 21, 2010 6:41 am

Quoting CosmicCruiser (Reply 112):
You guys posted some accurate and pertinent info but just give up on this Bozo. You're arguing with a sign post.

I am now going down that route now.... It is a shame that pilot wanna-bes come into the forum with egos and know-it-all attitudes. It is sad....

With that in mind, CosmicCruiser, I am taking your advice and departing this thread.......

Movin' on!   
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Ultimate Authority Always With Captain?

Wed Apr 21, 2010 10:01 am

Quoting YYZatcboy (Reply 112):

Congrats....Remember love the field & hard work pays.

In my opinion which I've conveyed in the posts above.....I agree that people are entitled to their opinion & We can agree to Disagree.But the facts are known by all insiders & a non believer in facts won't affect my attitude.

Sometimes some folks may not be aware of certain norms followed or wrongly followed & cannot shift from their methods as they don't accept that its wrong.Until the day becons on them.

regds
MEL.
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Ultimate Authority Always With Captain?

Wed Apr 21, 2010 3:15 pm

If N411A is what he claims to be, he is working for a company which basically makes it´s own rules and everything that happens in this company is subordinate to it´s bottom line.
I knew companies like this, usually using poor, corrupt countries (but also some not so poor countries, even in Europe, but with a rather corrupt government) as flag of convenience to get around the rules intended for safety, which we must obey.
I know some rather dodgy airlines from Turkey (some fortunately got kicked out of EU airspace and then closed down due to lack of passengers), on which´s aircraft I wouldn´t set a foot (after having seen their maintenance staff in action. I know that these techs are under immense pressure, from what one told me there exist black lists in this country and if you cause your boss to lose money, e.g. by grounding an aircraft because you down have the means or parts to do a job properly, you might not just get fired, but you might never work in your profession again). I know one Italian airline, which´s boss was a good friend of Berlusconi and who could get away with anything.
Also a cargo airline, with a HQ in the UK, aircraft registered in Ghana (so operating under the laws of Ghana) and and operational base in Belgium, before the UK CAA stepped in and forced them to get their aircraft registered under EASA rules and sharpen up, else facing to be banned from European airspace.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
411A
Posts: 1788
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RE: Ultimate Authority Always With Captain?

Wed Apr 21, 2010 4:24 pm

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 118):
...everything that happens in this company is subordinate to it´s bottom line.

An interesting comment.
However, unless you a very new to the airline industry, anyone whom has been in the industry for more than three weeks should know....every decision made is subordinate to the bottom line.
Airlines today, large legacy carriers, large low-cost carriers included, do what is necessary, period, consistant with their regulatory authorities regulations.
And...sometimes they get fined for not doing so.
American Airlines is a recent prime example.

As you know nothing of our particular operation, you are only guessing...wrongly as it turns out.
Nevertheless, nice try.

Oh yes, as you mentioned EASA, lets have a look at one rather prominate EASA-regulated aircarrier.
Air France...and their problems with pitot-static probes.
These problems went on for months, and even though several service bulletins had been issued, AF still dragged their collective feet, regarding changing the concerned probes to an improved type.
So-called strict EASA regulations didn't do much for the passengers on the AF A330 that took a swan dive into the Atlantic one night, now did they?
And, these 'strict' regulations didn't do much for the AF Concorde that crashed just after takeoff from CDG, either.
Lets review...
Wheel assemblies installed without the required spacers.
No tire debris deflectors fitted, as BA had installed on their Concorde aircraft.
Aircraft overweight.
Departing downwind.
And worst of all, the Flight Engineer shut down an operating engine....without saying anything to anyone.
Not especially impressive, to say the least.
So much for 'EASA.'

[Edited 2010-04-21 10:31:11]
 
tdscanuck
Posts: 8573
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RE: Ultimate Authority Always With Captain?

Wed Apr 21, 2010 5:20 pm

Quoting 411A (Reply 119):
These problems went on for months, and even though several service bulletins had been issued, AF still dragged their collective feet, regarding changing the concerned probes to an improved type.

As someone who is widely supporting of massive authority vested in one person, I'm surprised you take issue with this. AF's actions were completely consistent with all recommendations, EASA regulations, and their own approved operating certificate. Why are you OK with the extremely (and unusually) wide authority your carrier invests in the captain, but uncomfortable with that same authority when duly exercised by another carrier.

Quoting 411A (Reply 119):
So-called strict EASA regulations didn't do much for the passengers on the AF A330 that took a swan dive into the Atlantic one night, now did they?

There's no evidence to date that the pitot-static probes were responsible for that crash. However, even if they were, AF was completely within the legal window for modification of their installed pitot-probes. They were working towards the bottom line (least cost path to meet regulations and maintain appropriate safety), which you appear to endorse.

Tom.
 
411A
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RE: Ultimate Authority Always With Captain?

Wed Apr 21, 2010 5:39 pm

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 120):
As someone who is widely supporting of massive authority vested in one person, I'm surprised you take issue with this. AF's actions were completely consistent with all recommendations, EASA regulations, and their own approved operating certificate.

Not especially taking issue, however pointing out that EASA is not the be-all end-all, of aviation regularory bodies.
Nor, is the FAA in many respects.
Each has their own set of warts, however....for those that perhaps say that others can't do the job properly, is totally inconsistant with the facts, in most cases.
 
David L
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Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 2:26 am

RE: Ultimate Authority Always With Captain?

Wed Apr 21, 2010 6:34 pm

Quoting 411A (Reply 119):
These problems went on for months, and even though several service bulletins had been issued, AF still dragged their collective feet, regarding changing the concerned probes to an improved type.

To quote a time-honoured A.net expression... bollocks! Air France thought the discussions about potential problems with that make of pitot were taking too long and began a replacement programme anyway, before the AF447 accident.

Quoting 411A (Reply 119):
And, these 'strict' regulations didn't do much for the AF Concorde that crashed just after takeoff from CDG, either.

Given your record here, I'm sure you'll tell us you've run over a titanium blade at 200+ knots "hundreds of times, piece of cake". Or perhaps the titanium blade would see you coming, know its place in the grand scheme of things and make a run for it into the grass?

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 120):
As someone who is widely supporting of massive authority vested in one person, I'm surprised you take issue with this

Strike one!

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 120):
Why are you OK with the extremely (and unusually) wide authority your carrier invests in the captain, but uncomfortable with that same authority when duly exercised by another carrier

Strike two!

In previous threads we've often discussed whether it's Bernouilli or Newton that keeps aircraft flying. Anyone who's been following A.net for a while should know that aircraft fly because 411A commands it to be so. Many regular readers might also have noticed that I may have a tendency to brown-nose the pros here yet, somehow, 411A just doesn't do it for me... or many at PPRuNe either, for that matter.
  
 
411A
Posts: 1788
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RE: Ultimate Authority Always With Captain?

Wed Apr 21, 2010 9:44 pm

Quoting David L (Reply 122):
Or perhaps the titanium blade would see you coming, know its place in the grand scheme of things and make a run for it into the grass?

The titanium 'blade' as you call it played a minor role, as recent evidence in the latest trial has clearly indicated.
And, even IF it had, AF REFUSED to fit the main tire debris deflector shields, as British Airwaysd did.
A cost item that played a MAJOR roll in this clearly avoidable accident, had the AF Concorde been maintained and operated properly.
Of course, it wasn't...and all died.

Quoting David L (Reply 122):
Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 120):
Why are you OK with the extremely (and unusually) wide authority your carrier invests in the captain, but uncomfortable with that same authority when duly exercised by another carrier

Already answered, however, in case you missed it, the reason is....When myself and the crew fly the airplane, our licenses (and lives) are on the line.
Other airlines, even those EASA regulated, the decisions are made in the office, by folks sitting at a desk....not flying the airplane.
Nor, maintaining it.

I really have to LOL at the gullibility of many of the younger posters, here.
Many don't have a clue.
And, if older, close their eyes to the facts.

Strictly their problem, of course.
 
MQTmxguy
Posts: 129
Joined: Sun Nov 11, 2007 3:58 pm

RE: Ultimate Authority Always With Captain?

Thu Apr 22, 2010 8:23 am

Quoting 411A (Reply 118):
every decision made is subordinate to the bottom line.
Quoting 411A (Reply 122):
And, even IF it had, AF REFUSED to fit the main tire debris deflector shields, as British Airwaysd did.
A cost item that played a MAJOR roll in this clearly avoidable accident, had the AF Concorde been maintained and operated properly.
Of course, it wasn't...and all died.

Need I even point out the causality that you have inadvertently proven?

Either way, I'd fly AF any day of the week vs. an aircraft where one man has 100% authority over all things MX and dispatch. And given your apparent disdain for F/O's, not so sure I'd be comfortable with the flight ops side either.



Quoting 411A (Reply 105):
Ours, however, is slightly different.
Due to some of the more remote locations served, with odd-hours scheduling many times required, our airline is arranged in a vertical profile.
IE:
All subordinate members of the crew, which include the First Officer, the Flight Engineer, the Cabin Supervisor, the remaining cabin crew members, the Purser, and all three ground engineers (which travel with us all the time) report directly to the Captain, and further, the Captain makes all decisions regarding the dispatch of the flight.
The Captain, and the Captain ONLY will determine when to depart., subject to normal ATC/weather delays, etc.

Question: in addition to your apparent authority and licensing over all things flight, MX and dispatch, Do you also hold an IA (or whatever your regulatory body calls it) or a MX Inspector/QC qualification from your company? Can you sign for and approve RII items? What if a non-defferable maintenance item requires an inspector sign-off? Can you approve that? Can you approve major repairs? Can you sign an airworthiness release? If not, I'm still not seeing how you can be the end-all-be-all boss of everything.

Quoting 411A (Reply 105):
What we do not have, however, are individuals such as this...

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 95):
No aircraft until I give it a go. If my paperwork is not completed by the time the doors close, then the aircraft is not airworthy until that logbook is signed and released. If the pilots don't like it, too bad.

They would not be tolerated, either by myself nor other senior company management.

But he's right. Perhaps we would not be tolerated at your company, but at our respective airlines we're doing exactly what we're being paid for. For the sake of safety, reliability, and regulatory accountability we are in no way subordinate to our flight departments. During maintenance or a MX related event (when there is ANY open non-crew-defferable MX item), the aircraft is under the full control and authority of the maintenance department.

The only other thing I can think of that you would think of as "intolerable" would be if you garner from AirframeAS's statement that is that he feels so superior and untouchable that he can take all the time in the world he want's, perhaps a coffee break and a few smokes, whilst the crew and PAX sit helplessly in his grounded aircraft. I can assure you this is not the case. I know that at my base, even though we have forced some crews to wait on their aircraft, there was some epic ass-busting going on back at the hanger. But no matter how long it took, the aircraft did not launch untill it was safe and airworthy.

Quoting 411A (Reply 122):
I really have to LOL at the gullibility of many of the younger posters, here.
Many don't have a clue.
And, if older, close their eyes to the facts.

Really? Could you please lay of the constant condescending statements? And not just in this thread but for any and all posts you ever make for the rest of your life (you might consider it in the real world too). Especially since you know they're not true. If not for your tone of unqualified superiority I think your points would have been much better taken.

Quoting CosmicCruiser (Reply 111):
CosmicCruiser

That would probably be the wisest thing, but I guess I'm just a glutton for punishment   
Well at least we can all take comfort in the fact that NW will never retire their DC-9s
 
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zeke
Posts: 16078
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RE: Ultimate Authority Always With Captain?

Thu Apr 22, 2010 9:36 am

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 119):
There's no evidence to date that the pitot-static probes were responsible for that crash. However, even if they were, AF was completely within the legal window for modification of their installed pitot-probes. They were working towards the bottom line (least cost path to meet regulations and maintain appropriate safety), which you appear to endorse.

And the new and old probes were approved by the FAA and EASA as meeting all the appropriate design requirements.

Quoting David L (Reply 121):
Given your record here, I'm sure you'll tell us you've run over a titanium blade at 200+ knots "hundreds of times, piece of cake". Or perhaps the titanium blade would see you coming, know its place in the grand scheme of things and make a run for it into the grass?

I thought it was a repair to the outside of the engine that detached itself, not a blade itself. A missing blade would cause a lot of vibration and possibly result in the destruction of the engine/engine mount.

Quoting MQTmxguy (Reply 123):
Question: in addition to your apparent authority and licensing over all things flight, MX and dispatch, Do you also hold an IA (or whatever your regulatory body calls it) or a MX Inspector/QC qualification from your company? Can you sign for and approve RII items? What if a non-defferable maintenance item requires an inspector sign-off? Can you approve that? Can you approve major repairs? Can you sign an airworthiness release? If not, I'm still not seeing how you can be the end-all-be-all boss of everything.

You are looking at things from the regulatory framework you work in, as I have pointed out many times so far, most countries are not based upon FAA procedures and rules. What you are used to may or may not be a requirement elsewhere.

I can relate with what 411A is saying. I have worked in what feels like a previous life in a regulatory framework where a pilot does everything. A lot of pilots do this around the world every day, even today. A lot of smaller operators are like this, the overheads you are talking about would kill a small operation (e.g. a single aircraft airline).

411A has clearly said a number of times he is not working under FAA regulations, no point in trying to use that as the benchmark when it is not applicable.

Quoting MQTmxguy (Reply 123):
Really? Could you please lay of the constant condescending statements?

I think yourself and a few others could heed to some of your own advice, take the high road. I know for a fact what he is saying happens all the time in a lot of smaller operations.
“Don't be a show-off. Never be too proud to turn back. There are old pilots and bold pilots, but no old, bold pilots.” E. Hamilton Lee, 1949
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Ultimate Authority Always With Captain?

Thu Apr 22, 2010 11:27 am

Just curious of 411 view on Independent Inspections or Duplicate Inspections in Mx at your Airline.....Does one person do that too.

Its preferable to have people following rules & working as a team rather than one person determining whats right or wrong.

Rules are prepared for a reason after a lot of thought & need to be followed.

regds
MEL.
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
411A
Posts: 1788
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RE: Ultimate Authority Always With Captain?

Thu Apr 22, 2010 11:40 am

Quoting zeke (Reply 124):
I can relate with what 411A is saying. I have worked in what feels like a previous life in a regulatory framework where a pilot does everything. A lot of pilots do this around the world every day, even today. A lot of smaller operators are like this, the overheads you are talking about would kill a small operation (e.g. a single aircraft airline).

411A has clearly said a number of times he is not working under FAA regulations, no point in trying to use that as the benchmark when it is not applicable.

Well said.
Our ops methods would quite likely not be suitable to many, however....due to the rather special nature of some of our flights, the ops specs were tailored for our needs.

The title of the thread was...
Ultimate Authority Always With Captain?

With our operations, I answered correctly.
 
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longhauler
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RE: Ultimate Authority Always With Captain?

Thu Apr 22, 2010 2:09 pm

Quoting MQTmxguy (Reply 123):
And given your apparent disdain for F/O's, not so sure I'd be comfortable with the flight ops side either.

It would be easy to say this within the comfortable world in which most of us find ourselves. Captain 411A has mentioned his thoughts of the F/Os on several occassions. But before we judge him from our point of view ... look at his.

Maybe he does not find himself in the comfortable position of having very capable subordinates, like we do. Shoot, I fly with F/O's who have many thousands of hours in heavy jets, flying over the same routes we fly hundreds of times. Maybe he does NOT have that luxury!

I have many friends flying as Captain in third world countries, and if even half of the stories they tell me are true, I understand what Captain 411A is saying. Understand though, like most airlines, he is bound not to tell the inside workings of his company in a public forum.

But imagine for a second, (and this is purely conjecture), he is working for an airline in a third world country, that is not as much profit oriented, as it is a billboard to the world. Most people placed in the operation are not capable ... but they ARE from the country in question. And that is more important. The world gets to see how they are just as smart as everyone else ... except they are not!

Imagine further, that your F/O, is not a capable pilot, but the King's or Prime Minister's son. There because he wants to wear a shiny uniform to impress the ladies. No, he doesn't have to be good, he doesn't even have to study ... he is the Prime Minister's son! Exactly how much respect would you bestow on such an individual?

It may well be that Captain 411A may be the only one in that operation that knows what he is doing. Not a God complex like a lot of people on here accuse, but more to get 200000 Kgs of aluminum safely from A to B.

While it may be easy to cite CRM accidents, but remember in those accidents, the F/O was capable, and also right! Those are the one's we listen to and respect! I am getting the feeling Captain 411A does not have that luxury. Much like a lot of people outside of the comfortable areas we find ourselves.

Of course ... this is just conjecture on my part, and playing Devil's Advocate!
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
David L
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RE: Ultimate Authority Always With Captain?

Thu Apr 22, 2010 2:32 pm

Quoting zeke (Reply 124):
I thought it was a repair to the outside of the engine that detached itself, not a blade itself.

Ah, I see what you mean. I didn't mean a fan blade. I just meant something which behaved like a blade in the general sense due to its structure and composition. I've just got used to it being described as "a blade".
 
411A
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RE: Ultimate Authority Always With Captain?

Thu Apr 22, 2010 3:50 pm

Quoting longhauler (Reply 127):
Of course ... this is just conjecture on my part,

However, generally accurate.
 
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Faro
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RE: Ultimate Authority Always With Captain?

Fri Apr 23, 2010 7:58 am

Quoting longhauler (Reply 127):
It may well be that Captain 411A may be the only one in that operation that knows what he is doing. Not a God complex like a lot of people on here accuse, but more to get 200000 Kgs of aluminum safely from A to B.

And pocket the compensation in the process, which, to entice someone of 411A's apparent qualification and experience, must be substantial. Not taking a swipe here, just telling it like it is. There are good reasons why expats consent to being what they are.

Faro
The chalice not my son
 
CosmicCruiser
Posts: 2506
Joined: Tue Feb 22, 2005 3:01 am

RE: Ultimate Authority Always With Captain?

Fri Apr 23, 2010 12:09 pm

Quoting faro (Reply 130):
There are good reasons why expats consent to being what they are.

Of the expats I've known NONE had the arrogant and insulting attitude that was shown here. There was no reason for it.
 
MQTmxguy
Posts: 129
Joined: Sun Nov 11, 2007 3:58 pm

RE: Ultimate Authority Always With Captain?

Fri Apr 23, 2010 6:27 pm

Quoting zeke (Reply 124):
You are looking at things from the regulatory framework you work in, as I have pointed out many times so far, most countries are not based upon FAA procedures and rules. What you are used to may or may not be a requirement elsewhere.

So your saying that his operation, which apparently profitable and apparently only hires the best of the best, and operates a very large and aging aircraft has no Maintenance QC? I would still enjoy hearing an answer from 411A.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 127):
Maybe he does not find himself in the comfortable position of having very capable subordinates,

Under other circumstances I would give you this point. However 411A has asserted on many occasions that his company's hiring criteria far exceeds those of us who work at large, reputable carriers. If your gonna hire only the greatest Captain(s) and mechanics in the world why would F/O's be any different?

Quoting 411A (Reply 129):
However, generally accurate

And totally contradictory to everything else you've said.
Well at least we can all take comfort in the fact that NW will never retire their DC-9s
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Ultimate Authority Always With Captain?

Fri Apr 23, 2010 8:00 pm

Still awaiting 411A to revert to my last query  
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
411A
Posts: 1788
Joined: Mon Nov 12, 2001 10:34 am

RE: Ultimate Authority Always With Captain?

Fri Apr 23, 2010 8:29 pm

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 125):
Just curious of 411 view on Independent Inspections or Duplicate Inspections in Mx at your Airline.....Does one person do that too.

Sorry Hawk, missed your question.
The answer is NO, at least two separate folks are involved.
IE: checks and balances.

And, for each inspection(s) etc out of base (many times accomplished) , all report directly to the assigned Captain...and he insures that regulations and procedures are followed, to the letter.
Without fail.
Arranged this way for accountability...IE; the Captain takes the heat (big time) if not accomplished (flt ops, maintenance, flight following, dispateh, etc according to Hoyle.

That is just why we pay Captains the BIG bucks.

[Edited 2010-04-23 13:39:34]

[Edited 2010-04-23 13:42:35]
 
CosmicCruiser
Posts: 2506
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RE: Ultimate Authority Always With Captain?

Fri Apr 23, 2010 9:58 pm

[

Quoting 411A (Reply 134):
That is just why we pay Captains the BIG bucks.

We know already, Jeez!
 
seven3seven
Posts: 294
Joined: Wed Apr 27, 2005 6:55 am

RE: Ultimate Authority Always With Captain?

Sat Apr 24, 2010 6:45 am

I still say there's a pretty decent chance the only reason you're working for some small rinky-dink outfit such as you are is you couldnt hack it in the real airline industry. Everyone wants to play on the varsity squad. Why aren't you 411A?
My views are mine alone and are not that of any of my fellow employees, officers, or directors at my company
 
411A
Posts: 1788
Joined: Mon Nov 12, 2001 10:34 am

RE: Ultimate Authority Always With Captain?

Sat Apr 24, 2010 11:11 am

Quoting seven3seven (Reply 136):
Everyone wants to play on the varsity squad

They do?
How very interesting.
However, I can earn far more in my present position.
Besides, this is a semi-retirement position, as we do not fly year around....although this might change, shortly.
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Ultimate Authority Always With Captain?

Sat Apr 24, 2010 11:51 am

Quoting 411A (Reply 134):

Sorry Hawk, missed your question.
The answer is NO, at least two separate folks are involved.
IE: checks and balances.

I'm glad to hear that   

regds
MEL.
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
seven3seven
Posts: 294
Joined: Wed Apr 27, 2005 6:55 am

RE: Ultimate Authority Always With Captain?

Wed Apr 28, 2010 5:12 pm

http://www.thekathrynreport.com/2010...-crash-pilot-error-blamed-for.html

This is why CRM and teamwork must be used in any airline environment. The captain may be the final authority in decision making but it no way should he consider himself god. And if that kind of atmosphere is fostered or allowed to happen on the flight deck it can lead to a dead end.

The report noted that the pilot was 52 but that the first officer was only 23. Before takeoff the pilot admonished his first officer to turn on the plane's windshield wipers, and the report speculated that the first officer, already a shy person, did not speak up to tell the pilot about the flight's problems when he should have because of their relationship.
My views are mine alone and are not that of any of my fellow employees, officers, or directors at my company
 
Pihero
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RE: Ultimate Authority Always With Captain?

Thu Apr 29, 2010 12:16 pm

In one of the most gratifying experiences of my professional life, I did a long stint at being a management captain in an OPS control Center.
That place is probably the one where you'd find the people most dedicated to achieve inter-service co-operation towards a smooth running of the airline vs all the "against factors" : weather, industriall actions, airspace closures, maintenance obligations...etc...
In the beginning, I was amazed at how often the maintenance people would ask my thoughts about how acceptable a MELed item would be to a skipper.
At one period, we used to have lots of u/s APUs and I generally would ask those affected aircraft to be sent to northern /well equipped destinations as they would be refused by the crews for hot African airports because of air conditioning considerations.
In my opinion, in order to make the best decision possible, a captain must strive to get as much information as he/she can about all the aspects of his planned flight, whether commercial, technical,...etc...and the only way to achieve that requirement is to co-operate with as many represented services as possible and their representatives, including his/her crew.
If I can't achieve that , somewhere my operation of that aircraft is not optimal.
Contrail designer
 
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lightsaber
Moderator
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RE: Ultimate Authority Always With Captain?

Sat May 01, 2010 7:13 am

Wow... I feel baited...

Maybe it is because I live in the world of prototypes. But it is a lot harder to have an aircraft approved for flight than for the *qualified professionals* to ground it. That is never done lightly. Grounding a prototype costs far more than missing a passenger flight (due to the engineering talent observing), but no pilot gets to touch the aircraft until it is signed of as safe to fly. So the pressure is even more intense to 'skip a test point' and fly.

Quoting avt007 (Reply 43):
A proper snag that would ground the aircraft is beyond whatever "authority" a Captain or quality rep has. It's your a/c once I give it to you, not before.

  

Until the aircraft is release, by maintenance and engineering... no pilot can do anything with it. At least here in the USA. QA is the final vote (and often the visible one), but the thought of a valuable aircraft flying without multiple oversight just makes me shake my head.

Quoting seven3seven (Reply 139):

This is why CRM and teamwork must be used in any airline environment. The captain may be the final authority in decision making but it no way should he consider himself god.

Skygods was a great book on why that attitude kills people.

Quoting 411A (Reply 134):
and he insures that regulations and procedures are followed, to the letter.
Without fail.

Why would a pilot be doing QA's and engineering's job? That would be information overload. A pilot needs to know the MEL's and dispositions, but procedures? Ok, high level procedures, but not the technical details that require experience and education. We are talking dispatching aircraft... a pilot shouldn't have the time to ensure the detailed procedures were followed 'to the letter.' There is a reason aircraft are serviced while the flight crew sleeps...

Quoting 411A (Reply 126):
The title of the thread was...
Ultimate Authority Always With Captain?

With our operations, I answered correctly.

Interesting. Lacks the checks and balances that are a required part of US CRM. It is far more than pilot/co-pilot interaction. In flight, the pilot should be the final Authority. On the ground... there should be, on a weekly basis (not every flight), at least a half dozen people that perform there checks and have 'ownership' of the aircraft.

Lightsaber
7 months without TV. The best decision of my life.
 
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Faro
Topic Author
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RE: Ultimate Authority Always With Captain?

Sun May 02, 2010 6:41 am

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 141):
  

Until the aircraft is release, by maintenance and engineering... no pilot can do anything with it. At least here in the USA. QA is the final vote (and often the visible one), but the thought of a valuable aircraft flying without multiple oversight just makes me shake my hea

Maintenance regulations followed an evolutionary process in all countries, some are clearly not as advanced as others. It would be interesting to know when the present FAA regulations came into effect and whether this was due to incidents/accidents or just common sense.

Faro
The chalice not my son
 
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HAWK21M
Posts: 30130
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RE: Ultimate Authority Always With Captain?

Sun May 02, 2010 9:52 am

Quoting faro (Reply 142):
It would be interesting to know when the present FAA regulations came into effect and whether this was due to incidents/accidents or just common sense.

Any Regulator would learn from Incidents & take steps to revise regulations on the way,learning from setbacks.
regds
MEL.
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
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lightsaber
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RE: Ultimate Authority Always With Captain?

Wed May 05, 2010 2:32 pm

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 143):
Any Regulator would learn from Incidents & take steps to revise regulations on the way,learning from setbacks.
regds

Agreed. Hence the 'no fault' policy of aircraft accident investigation.

To anyone who hasn't read "Skygods," I recommend it. It shows the issues and danger of letting one person, the Captain, have the only vote. (It is also a really interesting history of PanAm.)

But alas, it seems we must relearn the same old lessons...

Lightsaber
7 months without TV. The best decision of my life.

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