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lhcvg
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What Would Happen If Reversers Deployed Inflight?

Mon Apr 26, 2010 4:09 pm

I don't even know how this would happen, but if it did theoretically, would the plane immediately stall and tumble to the ground, or is there a chance for recovery?
 
flyingbronco05
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RE: What Would Happen If Reversers Deployed Inflight?

Mon Apr 26, 2010 4:25 pm

On the EMB145, IF the reverser deployed OR there was a disagree message, the engine will automatically roll back to idle. Then, we would pull out the checklist which would probably have us pull breakers so close the bucket. Keep in mind the reversers can not be used unless there is weight on the wheels.
Never Trust Your Fuel Gauge
 
vikkyvik
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RE: What Would Happen If Reversers Deployed Inflight?

Mon Apr 26, 2010 4:26 pm

Quoting LHCVG (Thread starter):
I don't even know how this would happen, but if it did theoretically, would the plane immediately stall and tumble to the ground, or is there a chance for recovery?

No, it wouldn't immediately stall. But you'd immediately lose a lot of thrust, and gain a lot of drag. On a low-wing airplane with wing-mounted engines, you'd also induce a nose-down moment.

You'd rapidly lose speed, and have to increase AOA to maintain altitude. So you would certainly stall before too long.

Worth noting that there have been airplanes on which you could deploy thrust reversers inflight. But not all of them at once, far as I know. I don't currently remember which airplanes had that ability.
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Lemmy
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RE: What Would Happen If Reversers Deployed Inflight?

Mon Apr 26, 2010 4:41 pm

I am a patient boy ...
 
citationjet
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RE: What Would Happen If Reversers Deployed Inflight?

Mon Apr 26, 2010 4:44 pm

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 2):
Worth noting that there have been airplanes on which you could deploy thrust reversers inflight. But not all of them at once, far as I know. I don't currently remember which airplanes had that ability.

The DC-8 could.

Reverse Thrust (by Jetpilot Mar 22 1999 in Civil Aviation)?threadid=16154&searchid=16163&s=dc-8+reverse#ID16163
Boeing Flown: 701,702,703;717;720;721,722;731,732,733,734,735,73G,738,739;741,742,743,744,747SP;752,753;762,763;772,773,788.
 
tdscanuck
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RE: What Would Happen If Reversers Deployed Inflight?

Mon Apr 26, 2010 5:08 pm

Quoting LHCVG (Thread starter):
I don't even know how this would happen, but if it did theoretically, would the plane immediately stall and tumble to the ground, or is there a chance for recovery?

It's very airplane specific. As noted above, some aircraft are designed to do it on purpose. Others aren't supposed to do it, but can survive it (e.g. 727's). On high-bypass fans, it can be fatal (Lauda accident).

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 2):
No, it wouldn't immediately stall.

It may, it depends on which specific aircraft you're talking about. The flow out of the cascade vanes can drastically increase local AoA near the engine, potentially causing an almost instant stall over a portion of the wing.

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 2):
Worth noting that there have been airplanes on which you could deploy thrust reversers inflight. But not all of them at once, far as I know. I don't currently remember which airplanes had that ability.

I think the C-17 can do all of them at once, but that's a special case.

Tom.
 
EMBQA
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RE: What Would Happen If Reversers Deployed Inflight?

Mon Apr 26, 2010 5:19 pm

Quoting Lemmy (Reply 3):
Bad things happen.

Don't forget about the C-5 that crashed during Desert Storm when a TR deployed on Take off...
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
 
vc10
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RE: What Would Happen If Reversers Deployed Inflight?

Mon Apr 26, 2010 5:39 pm

Super VC-10, G-ASGE on 8th May 1973 whilst in cruise between Tokyo and Hong Kong , Number 4 engine tried to go into reverse, however the mechanical system slammed the throttle back to idle with a huge bang , the autopilot dropped out the aircraft yawed and lost height, and I nearly wet myself. The aircraft was returned to cruise height/speed, and the checklist completed to shut the engine down . [ Infact the engine had shut itself down when the throttle came back with a rush]

Thankfully the rest of the flight was uneventfull .

Little vc10
 
lhcvg
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RE: What Would Happen If Reversers Deployed Inflight?

Mon Apr 26, 2010 5:59 pm

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 5):
The flow out of the cascade vanes can drastically increase local AoA near the engine, potentially causing an almost instant stall over a portion of the wing.

That's what I was initially thinking would happen given that it has to massively disturb the airflow in the immediate vicinity. I guess you just have to be on your toes and be ready to get the AOA up as others pointed out.
 
Mastropiero
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RE: What Would Happen If Reversers Deployed Inflight?

Mon Apr 26, 2010 6:11 pm

Quoting LHCVG (Reply 8):
I guess you just have to be on your toes and be ready to get the AOA up as others pointed out.

Stupid question, wouldn´t that be the other way around? Unless you mean getting the AOA up in order to maintain altitude, I would be more worried about not entering a stall, thus lowering the nose..... of course, that´s from a layman´s point of view so please, do correct me if I´m talking nonsense.
 
2H4
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RE: What Would Happen If Reversers Deployed Inflight?

Mon Apr 26, 2010 6:13 pm

Sometimes they're deployed in the flare:

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Photo © Howard Chaloner

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vikkyvik
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RE: What Would Happen If Reversers Deployed Inflight?

Mon Apr 26, 2010 7:28 pm

Quoting Lemmy (Reply 3):
The DC-8 could.

Thanks! I thought it could, but didn't see any photos of such in my quick search.

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 5):
It may, it depends on which specific aircraft you're talking about. The flow out of the cascade vanes can drastically increase local AoA near the engine, potentially causing an almost instant stall over a portion of the wing.

Good point - thanks.

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 5):
I think the C-17 can do all of them at once, but that's a special case

Is that for steep approaches?

Quoting Mastropiero (Reply 9):
Quoting LHCVG (Reply 8):
I guess you just have to be on your toes and be ready to get the AOA up as others pointed out.

Stupid question, wouldn´t that be the other way around?

If you're approaching a stall (which means your AOA is increasing), trying to further increase your AOA will get you stalled that much quicker. So yeah, perhaps not the best idea  

I'd assume your best bet would be to stow the reversers, lower the nose, and pick up lost speed. Of course, that implies that you have sufficient altitude to do so. Also depends on how much speed you've lost in the first place. If you're still on the front-side of the power curve, you may not have to lower the nose. If you've transitioned to the back-side, it's a different story.
I'm watching Jeopardy. The category is worst Madonna songs. "This one from 1987 is terrible".
 
etherealsky
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RE: What Would Happen If Reversers Deployed Inflight?

Mon Apr 26, 2010 7:35 pm

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 5):
I think the C-17 can do all of them at once, but that's a special case.

According to this video:

http://www.flightlevel350.com/aviation_video.php?id=5025

A C-17 can reach descent rates of more than 13,000 FPM   

Slightly off topic, but Vought says that the C-17 can also use its TRs to back up a 2% grade while fully loaded, as well as to divert core and bypass airflow forward while engines are running on the ground during loading/unloading (to prevent damage/hazards to ground crew loading stuff via the ramp).
"And that's why you always leave a note..."
 
PPVRA
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RE: What Would Happen If Reversers Deployed Inflight?

Mon Apr 26, 2010 7:37 pm

"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
KELPkid
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RE: What Would Happen If Reversers Deployed Inflight?

Mon Apr 26, 2010 7:54 pm

Quoting etherealsky (Reply 12):
Slightly off topic, but Vought says that the C-17 can also use its TRs to back up a 2% grade while fully loaded, as well as to divert core and bypass airflow forward while engines are running on the ground during loading/unloading (to prevent damage/hazards to ground crew loading stuff via the ramp).

A C-17 backup capability demonstration (albeit, on level ground, usually show center on the runway) is usually a part of any USAF C-17 demonstration. I saw this at the KTCM (McChord AFB) airshow one year...  
Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
 
tdscanuck
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RE: What Would Happen If Reversers Deployed Inflight?

Mon Apr 26, 2010 8:01 pm

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 11):
Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 5):
I think the C-17 can do all of them at once, but that's a special case

Is that for steep approaches?

In flight, yes. On the ground, as others have posted, it has a bunch of other functions.

Quoting etherealsky (Reply 12):
A C-17 can reach descent rates of more than 13,000 FPM

Most commercial jets can do that to, there's just no reason to do it normally. The only time you'd usually get up that high is an emergency descent (speedbrakes up, fly the Mmo/Vmo curve) due to decompression.

Tom.
 
ANITIX87
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RE: What Would Happen If Reversers Deployed Inflight?

Mon Apr 26, 2010 8:42 pm

Didn't the Concorde have the ability to deploy T/R buckets in-flight as well? I remember reading somewhere in these forums that it was frequently used in descent to slow her down after getting below Mach 1.

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lhcvg
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RE: What Would Happen If Reversers Deployed Inflight?

Mon Apr 26, 2010 8:50 pm

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 11):
If you're approaching a stall (which means your AOA is increasing), trying to further increase your AOA will get you stalled that much quicker. So yeah, perhaps not the best idea

Sorry for the confusion....I certainly wouldn't want to increase AOA in a stall condition. Should have made it "lower/reduce" .  
 
Viscount724
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RE: What Would Happen If Reversers Deployed Inflight?

Mon Apr 26, 2010 9:35 pm

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 11):
Quoting Lemmy (Reply 3):
The DC-8 could.

Thanks! I thought it could, but didn't see any photos of such in my quick search.

A few oither threads on inflight use of thrust reversers.
Inflight Reverse Thrust On DC 8 (by 6YJCX Dec 4 2007 in Tech Ops)
DC-8 And Reverse Thrust Use In Flight (by Ttailsteve Jul 3 2006 in Civil Aviation)
Reverse Thrusting In The Air--possible? (by 727LOVER Nov 17 2004 in Tech Ops)
Use Of Thrust Reversers During Descent (by Tg 747-300 May 4 2002 in Tech Ops)
 
jhooper
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RE: What Would Happen If Reversers Deployed Inflight?

Tue Apr 27, 2010 1:54 am

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 6):

Don't forget about the C-5 that crashed during Desert Storm when a TR deployed on Take off...

Tragic accident. However, the C-5 is designed to use #2 and #3 TRs in flight, although not in the airspeed regime experienced at ETAR.
Last year 1,944 New Yorkers saw something and said something.
 
411A
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RE: What Would Happen If Reversers Deployed Inflight?

Tue Apr 27, 2010 4:56 am

October 21, 2009
Location, SHJ
Type acft, B707-320C
Accident on takeoff.

Video here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ee8xcSPsCVc

Now confirmed, according to the GCAA, number four engine thrust reverser uncommanded deployment just after liftoff.
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: What Would Happen If Reversers Deployed Inflight?

Wed Apr 28, 2010 4:39 am

Is the IL62 taking the T/R deployment signal thru the RA system.What stops it from being deployed at higher altitudes?
regds
MEL.
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MQTmxguy
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RE: What Would Happen If Reversers Deployed Inflight?

Wed Apr 28, 2010 8:34 am

Quoting flyingbronco05 (Reply 1):
On the EMB145, IF the reverser deployed OR there was a disagree message, the engine will automatically roll back to idle. Then, we would pull out the checklist which would probably have us pull breakers so close the bucket. Keep in mind the reversers can not be used unless there is weight on the wheels.

You are correct about weight on wheels, but FYI pulling the THRUST REVERSER CB will not close the buckets on an ERJ, in fact that's one of several things we do to lock and safety them open during maintenance. If I had to guess the procedure would probably be "(affected engine) START/STOP selector to STOP, N2 SIGNAL 1 and 2 circuit breakers OPEN, Thrust Lever to THRUST SET" and if N2 rollback is not confirmed on EICAS "FIRE HANDLE...PULL".

But for that to happen in the first place you would have to have a massive failure (defeating several redundancies and fail safes) of the WOW/LGEU system plus another massive failure of:

either TR Isolation control unit and associated Directional control unit
Thrust lever idle lockout and associated FADEC
Thrust lever resolver and associated FADEC
or a complete failure both primary plus the secondary and tertiary locks of the individual door.

Plus if a TR is MEL'd it is redundantly locked in the stowed position electronically, hydraulically, and mechanically.
Well at least we can all take comfort in the fact that NW will never retire their DC-9s
 
Arrow
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RE: What Would Happen If Reversers Deployed Inflight?

Wed Apr 28, 2010 3:59 pm

There was a crash a few decades ago -- a Pacific Western 737-200 attempting to land at Cranbrook in a snowstorm did a go-round after touchdown when a snow plow appeared on the runway ahead. The pilot had already deployed those bucket reversers. On the climb-out, just as the buckets were finishing stowing, Pilot selected gear-up and drained hydraulic pressure from the still-stowing reversers. As a result, the left bucket was pulled back to fully-open by the slipstream (the right one had finished) and the crew couldn't get it under control. The 737 spun into the airfield. I can't remember the numbers, but I think 2 or 3 passengers in the rear cabin survived, the rest, including the crew, didn't.

A lot of changes came out of that crash -- I'm sure you could get the DoT report -- especially the go-round rules on the 737. Needless to say there were some strong recommendation about communications, too. Pilot had no idea there was a plow on the runway; plow driver had no idea the 737 was on final for landing. If they'd left the gear down (or even delayed it by 30 seconds), they probably would have made a routine go-round with a successful landing. Hindsight is always 20-20.
Never let the facts get in the way of a good story.
 
flybaurlax
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RE: What Would Happen If Reversers Deployed Inflight?

Wed Apr 28, 2010 6:59 pm

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 5):
I think the C-17 can do all of them at once, but that's a special case.

I'm pretty sure for the tactical descent, they only use the 2 inboard engines with reverse, but I could be wrong.

Quoting etherealsky (Reply 12):
A C-17 can reach descent rates of more than 13,000 FPM

When I "flew" the C-17 FFS at McChord AFB 2 months ago, we did a tactical descent with a rate of 22,000 fpm, holding 315 IAS. It was very impressive. They let the runway pass under the nose out of sight and then start the descent, and you can land with plenty of room even if you start out at 35,000 feet.
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FlyingColours
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RE: What Would Happen If Reversers Deployed Inflight?

Wed Apr 28, 2010 7:42 pm

Quoting vc10 (Reply 7):
Super VC-10, G-ASGE on 8th May 1973 whilst in cruise between Tokyo and Hong Kong , Number 4 engine tried to go into reverse, however the mechanical system slammed the throttle back to idle with a huge bang , the autopilot dropped out the aircraft yawed and lost height, and I nearly wet myself. The aircraft was returned to cruise height/speed, and the checklist completed to shut the engine down . [ Infact the engine had shut itself down when the throttle came back with a rush]

Thankfully the rest of the flight was uneventfull .

Thank you for sharing that experience with us.

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 10):
Sometimes they're deployed in the flare:

Indeed, and a TU-154 is captured landing at MAN on this video (also includes departure) - definitly watch in HQ/HD

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=clxQd62e8-s

Phil
FlyingColours
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747400sp
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RE: What Would Happen If Reversers Deployed Inflight?

Wed Apr 28, 2010 7:56 pm

I believe the very deadly US Air 733 crash in 1994 was due to thrust reverser deploying inflight. Maybe I am wrong.
 
FlyingColours
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RE: What Would Happen If Reversers Deployed Inflight?

Wed Apr 28, 2010 8:27 pm

Quoting 747400sp (Reply 26):
I believe the very deadly US Air 733 crash in 1994 was due to thrust reverser deploying inflight. Maybe I am wrong.

USAir 427?
This was due to the much publicised fault with the rudder control system. It also brought down UA 585 and almost did the same to an Eastwind Bird (however they managed to land safely).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USAir_Flight_427

There is a fairly good episode of Air Crash Investigation which looks into the 3 accidents/incidents, I believe it is online too though may be removed soon due to copyright stuff...

Phil
FlyingColours
Lifes a train racing towards you, now you can either run away or grab a chair & a beer and watch it come - Phil
 
etherealsky
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RE: What Would Happen If Reversers Deployed Inflight?

Wed Apr 28, 2010 11:40 pm

Quoting flybaurLAX (Reply 24):
When I "flew" the C-17 FFS at McChord AFB 2 months ago, we did a tactical descent with a rate of 22,000 fpm, holding 315 IAS. It was very impressive. They let the runway pass under the nose out of sight and then start the descent, and you can land with plenty of room even if you start out at 35,000 feet.

 Wow!  That is an awesome story! Must have been incredible to see firsthand. Does the pressurization system maintain a reasonable rate of descent in the cabin? or is it limited to a certain differential between cabin and atmospheric pressure? Either way, I guess it wouldn't be fun to do that with a cold or sinus problem, lol.
"And that's why you always leave a note..."
 
71Zulu
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RE: What Would Happen If Reversers Deployed Inflight?

Wed Apr 28, 2010 11:54 pm

A couple years ago there was a DL MD88 enroute ATL > MSY when there was a bang and then a vibration that came over the plane. Pilots declared an emergency and set up for a landing at MSY. The pilot reported to ATC they suspected a thrust reverser had opened in flight. Landed safely, engines inspected and nothing wrong found. Mechanics locked the reversers out and plane ferried back to ATL. There was a thread about it and I think somebody said the DC9/MD80 could be flown with a reverser bucket open.
 
flybaurlax
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RE: What Would Happen If Reversers Deployed Inflight?

Thu Apr 29, 2010 4:57 am

Quoting etherealsky (Reply 28):
Wow! That is an awesome story! Must have been incredible to see firsthand. Does the pressurization system maintain a reasonable rate of descent in the cabin? or is it limited to a certain differential between cabin and atmospheric pressure? Either way, I guess it wouldn't be fun to do that with a cold or sinus problem, lol.

Good question! I didn't really think of it. I'm pretty sure that everyone on the a/c is sucking the hose for those maneuvers, but I could be wrong. I'll ask my friend who got me in the sim about it.

Yes it was an incredible experience! Not to get too sidetracked from the topic, but it was an incredible feeling using spoilers and reverse thrust to keep the airspeed down and the descent rate wayyy up. I also did assault landings, low level terrain masking, and I was able to hook up with a tanker 3 times (granted I could only stay connected for 30 seconds at a time, but I was pretty damn impressed with myself). It simulated the wake turbulence as you got closer to the 135 to refuel.
Boilerup! Go Purdue!
 
cpd
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RE: What Would Happen If Reversers Deployed Inflight?

Thu Apr 29, 2010 7:34 am

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 2):

Worth noting that there have been airplanes on which you could deploy thrust reversers inflight. But not all of them at once, far as I know. I don't currently remember which airplanes had that ability

Concorde could also do it, on two engines only. I don't fully remember the entire reason behind that well enough to explain it here (because 50 people will rush to correct me). It had to be armed via a switch on the engineers panel.

After that, reverse thrust could be applied. In normal operation, there was a safety mechanism to prevent inadvertant reverse thrust bucket movements which would catch them and stop it happening.
 
DH106
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RE: What Would Happen If Reversers Deployed Inflight?

Thu Apr 29, 2010 8:44 am

Quoting Arrow (Reply 23):
On the climb-out, just as the buckets were finishing stowing, Pilot selected gear-up and drained hydraulic pressure from the still-stowing reversers
Quoting Arrow (Reply 23):
If they'd left the gear down (or even delayed it by 30 seconds), they probably would have made a routine go-round with a successful landing. Hindsight is always 20-20.

My understanding of this accident was that when the a/c became airbourne again with the left reverser still in transit to the stow position, the removal of the 'weight on wheels' signal isolated the reverser hydraulics (both sides - extend AND stow) leaving the left one to then reopen in the slipstream - I hadn't heard that the gear retraction was the cause of the stow failure. Have I got this wrong?
...I watched c-beams glitter in the dark by the Tanhauser Gate....
 
Arrow
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RE: What Would Happen If Reversers Deployed Inflight?

Thu Apr 29, 2010 4:33 pm

Quoting DH106 (Reply 32):
Have I got this wrong?

Probably not; I was going from memory -- but I do have a recollection of a wheels-up selection reducing hydraulic pressure in the reverser system at a critical time -- perhaps exacerbating what you have described. I'll go dig it out now if I can find it.
Never let the facts get in the way of a good story.
 
MarcW10
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RE: What Would Happen If Reversers Deployed Inflight?

Sat May 08, 2010 8:40 pm

According to the Great British Aircraft docu I watched about a week ago, the Hawker Siddley Trident could also deploy Thrust Reversers in flight to achieve descent rates of > 10,000fpm. I'd LOVE to have gotten a chance to experience that first hand!
 
bjorn14
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RE: What Would Happen If Reversers Deployed Inflight?

Tue May 11, 2010 11:59 am

Quoting DH106 (Reply 32):
My understanding of this accident was that when the a/c became airbourne again with the left reverser still in transit to the stow position, the removal of the 'weight on wheels' signal isolated the reverser hydraulics (both sides - extend AND stow) leaving the left one to then reopen in the slipstream - I hadn't heard that the gear retraction was the cause of the stow failure. Have I got this wrong?

A Reader's Digest version:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pacific_Western_Airlines_Flight_314

YCG is a tough place to land..no direct approach because of mountains.
"I want to know the voice of God the rest is just details" --A. Einstein
 
Viscount724
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RE: What Would Happen If Reversers Deployed Inflight?

Tue May 11, 2010 11:54 pm

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 35):
YCG is a tough place to land..no direct approach because of mountains.

The Pacific Western accident you refer to happened at Cranbrook (YXC), not Castlegar (YCG). Mountains are much less of a factor at Cranbrook.
 
Dalmd88
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RE: What Would Happen If Reversers Deployed Inflight?

Wed May 12, 2010 1:47 am

Quoting 71Zulu (Reply 29):
There was a thread about it and I think somebody said the DC9/MD80 could be flown with a reverser bucket open.

Douglas did it intentionally during MD 80 test flights. They deployed both at the same time I believe.
 
mrocktor
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RE: What Would Happen If Reversers Deployed Inflight?

Thu May 13, 2010 2:00 pm

Quoting DH106 (Reply 32):
My understanding of this accident was that when the a/c became airbourne again with the left reverser still in transit to the stow position, the removal of the 'weight on wheels' signal isolated the reverser hydraulics (both sides - extend AND stow) leaving the left one to then reopen in the slipstream (...) Have I got this wrong?

You have it completely right.

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