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chase
Topic Author
Posts: 658
Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2005 11:02 pm

Iron Curtain's Effect On ATC?

Thu May 13, 2010 1:17 am

I apologize if this has been asked before - I did a quick search, but didn't find anything.

Anyway, I am curious to know what the effect of the Iron Curtain was on ATC at that time. Does anyone have any resources they could point me to? I'm curious to know things like the effect on handoffs from one center to another (if that could even happen between East and West), permissions in emergency conditions, etc.

Thanks!
 
cobra27
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RE: Iron Curtain's Effect On ATC?

Thu May 13, 2010 11:58 am

No chase plane or warning shots if you got lost, just shot down like that Korean Jet in Soviet Union
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Iron Curtain's Effect On ATC?

Thu May 13, 2010 3:54 pm

Back during cold war there existed an Air Defense Identification Zone (ADIZ), which was about 100 km deep, on the western (NATO) side of the borders between NATO countries and Warsaw Pact countries. Access was only per fpreviously filed flight plan and arrival and departure times had to be within 5 minutes of acchduled, else the aircraft in question would receive a visit by a military fighter of whoever was on guard duty on the respective stretch of the ADIZ at the given time (e.g. in Germany this could have been the Luftwaffe, the USAF, the RAF or the RCAF).

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
KELPkid
Posts: 5247
Joined: Wed Nov 02, 2005 5:33 am

RE: Iron Curtain's Effect On ATC?

Thu May 13, 2010 5:20 pm

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 2):
Back during cold war there existed an Air Defense Identification Zone (ADIZ), which was about 100 km deep, on the western (NATO) side of the borders between NATO countries and Warsaw Pact countries. Access was only per fpreviously filed flight plan and arrival and departure times had to be within 5 minutes of acchduled, else the aircraft in question would receive a visit by a military fighter of whoever was on guard duty on the respective stretch of the ADIZ at the given time (e.g. in Germany this could have been the Luftwaffe, the USAF, the RAF or the RCAF).

Unless your name was Matthais Rust   

[Edited 2010-05-13 10:52:10]
Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
 
MD11Engineer
Posts: 13899
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2003 5:25 am

RE: Iron Curtain's Effect On ATC?

Thu May 13, 2010 8:34 pm

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 3):
Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 2):
Back during cold war there existed an Air Defense Identification Zone (ADIZ), which was about 100 km deep, on the western (NATO) side of the borders between NATO countries and Warsaw Pact countries. Access was only per fpreviously filed flight plan and arrival and departure times had to be within 5 minutes of acchduled, else the aircraft in question would receive a visit by a military fighter of whoever was on guard duty on the respective stretch of the ADIZ at the given time (e.g. in Germany this could have been the Luftwaffe, the USAF, the RAF or the RCAF).

Unless your name was Matthais Rust

There were others as well. I remember having read about some guy with a single engined taildragger, who flew into the GDR below radar coverage to get people out. He had his plane painted bright yellow to resemble the Czech made crop dusters (ZLIN-37) used by the East German government, so that he could land in a field without attracting too much attention.

Rust himself was a nutcase and later ended up in the funny farm in West Germany, after he had stabbed a nurse in a hospital, where he was doing his national service, who rejected his advances.
His plane is currently located in the museum of transport and trechnology in Berlin (a Reims-Cessna 182).

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
Viscount724
Posts: 19316
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:32 pm

RE: Iron Curtain's Effect On ATC?

Thu May 13, 2010 8:46 pm

Quoting cobra27 (Reply 1):
No chase plane or warning shots if you got lost, just shot down like that Korean Jet in Soviet Union

An El Al Constellation was shot down by Bulgarian fighters in 1955, killing all 58 aboard, when it strayed over the Yugoslav/Bulgaria border due to a navigation problem on a VIE-TLV flight.
http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19550727-0
 
Fabo
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Joined: Tue Aug 16, 2005 1:30 am

RE: Iron Curtain's Effect On ATC?

Fri May 14, 2010 6:48 pm

Quoting Chase (Thread starter):
handoffs from one center to another (if that could even happen between East and West),

Of course it would happen, how else would you fly for ex. LON-PRG?  
Quoting cobra27 (Reply 1):
No chase plane or warning shots if you got lost, just shot down like that Korean Jet in Soviet Union

I find that hard to believe. Will talk to a friend who was a fighter pilot on a base close to Czechoslovak - Austrian border though.
The light at the end of tunnel turned out to be a lighted sing saying NO EXIT
 
mandala499
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Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2001 8:47 pm

RE: Iron Curtain's Effect On ATC?

Fri May 14, 2010 9:55 pm

Quoting cobra27 (Reply 1):
No chase plane or warning shots if you got lost, just shot down like that Korean Jet in Soviet Union

The KAL007 case was a special case, they thought it was a spy plane (RC135?)... and it was about to leave Soviet airspace so they shot it down. There were stuff about it firing warning shots by cannon, but I can't be bothered to look it up...

I did have an En-route supplement back in the cold war days, the Soviet procedure was to go up and identify strays/unknowns... and provide a warning shot. Failure to signal you notice/accept being intercepted... you go down the nasty way... (I think the 3x warning was there but I don't remember that part... the Israeli method is 1 warning shot only for you to notice... otherwise, you go down the nasty way)

Quoting Chase (Thread starter):
Does anyone have any resources they could point me to? I'm curious to know things like the effect on handoffs from one center to another (if that could even happen between East and West), permissions in emergency conditions, etc.

Special rules apply on the West Berlin Air Corridor...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Berlin_Air_Corridor
An interesting read...   
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
 
GST
Posts: 831
Joined: Wed Jun 11, 2008 10:27 am

RE: Iron Curtain's Effect On ATC?

Fri May 14, 2010 10:01 pm

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 7):

The KAL007 case was a special case, they thought it was a spy plane (RC135?)... and it was about to leave Soviet airspace so they shot it down. There were stuff about it firing warning shots by cannon, but I can't be bothered to look it up...

Warning shots were fired, but the aircraft was not loaded with tracers, and the cockpit voice recorders did not contain any indication that the pilots saw anything, or that anyone aboard saw muzzle flashes.

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