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RodRB
Topic Author
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FAA To Replace "Position And Hold" Eff Sep 30th

Fri Jul 16, 2010 10:07 pm

FAA to replace "Position and Hold" with "Line Up and Wait"

http://www.faa.gov/news/safety_briefing/2010/media/JulAug2010.pdf - Page 5

Quote:
(...)Designed to help simplify and standardize air traffic control
(ATC) phraseology, as well as to comply with International
Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO) standards, U.S. controllers will
use the term “line up and wait” in place of “position and hold”
when instructing a pilot to taxi onto a departure runway and wait
for takeoff clearance(...)

They also argued the pilots could confuse with "position and roll" or "hold position".

What do you think about it?

Regards
 
Fly2HMO
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RE: FAA To Replace "Position And Hold" Eff Sep 30th

Fri Jul 16, 2010 10:19 pm

So they're basically just switching over to the ICAO english standard.

Quoting RodRB (Thread starter):
What do you think about it?

Me thinks anybody who would get confused would probably be you're once-in-a-year flight 76 year old sunday flier that's nearly deaf. Doubt the more proficient ones would ever get confused. Position and hold seems more than clear for me.
 
ryu2
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RE: FAA To Replace "Position And Hold" Eff Sep 30th

Fri Jul 16, 2010 10:20 pm

Good to see the USA be more aligned with the rest of the world on this.

It also has the advantage of less syllables to say on the radio, which helps in busy airports like LHR, JFK, ORD...
 
flymia
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RE: FAA To Replace "Position And Hold" Eff Sep 30th

Fri Jul 16, 2010 10:26 pm

I think position and hold is more clear but I can see why they want to be the same as the ICAO with all the international flights. But someone who confused Postion and Hold to clear for takeoff should not be flying.
"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
 
Maverick623
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RE: FAA To Replace "Position And Hold" Eff Sep 30th

Fri Jul 16, 2010 10:57 pm

Quoting ryu2 (Reply 2):
It also has the advantage of less syllables to say on the radio, which helps in busy airports like LHR, JFK, ORD...

It's one less syllable. Hardly a dealbreaker no matter how you shake it.

Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 1):
So they're basically just switching over to the ICAO english standard.
Quoting flymia (Reply 3):
they want to be the same as the ICAO with all the international flights

     
"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
 
jetmatt777
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RE: FAA To Replace "Position And Hold" Eff Sep 30th

Fri Jul 16, 2010 11:01 pm

I think position and hold sounds more professional, IMO. Line up and wait sounds like a school teacher telling her kids to line up before going outside to recess.

Moot point I guess, but I do see why they are doing it and I don't really have any beef over the change.
 
Viscount724
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RE: FAA To Replace "Position And Hold" Eff Sep 30th

Fri Jul 16, 2010 11:46 pm

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 4):
Quoting ryu2 (Reply 2):
It also has the advantage of less syllables to say on the radio, which helps in busy airports like LHR, JFK, ORD...

It's one less syllable. Hardly a dealbreaker no matter how you shake it.

But four one-syllable words are probably easier for many non-native English speaking pilots to understand, especially those with limited English skills. And there seem to be obvious advantages in using consistent terminology in both directions on flights between the US and the rest of the world.
 
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Aaron747
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RE: FAA To Replace "Position And Hold" Eff Sep 30th

Sat Jul 17, 2010 12:32 am

Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 1):
Me thinks anybody who would get confused would probably be you're once-in-a-year flight 76 year old sunday flier that's nearly deaf. Doubt the more proficient ones would ever get confused. Position and hold seems more than clear for me.

I doubt they are concerned about that demographic so much as the international pilots who routinely misunderstand ATC phraseology in the US and on the runway is not the place for that to be happening. Look up any number of incidents with Chinese and/or Japanese pilots over the last few years. When I was still doing my ATC consulting gig in Japan, the most common complaint from pilot there was about the "position and hold" instruction.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
lowrider
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RE: FAA To Replace "Position And Hold" Eff Sep 30th

Sat Jul 17, 2010 3:33 am

Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 1):
Position and hold seems more than clear for me.

I prefer the "position and hold" termanology, but that might be because it is what I started out under. I have never heard of any confusion on the frequency due to either instruction. On the other hand, if it makes life a little easier for some folks where English is not thier native language, I don't really see any harm.

However, they better not even think about converting to hectopascals or milibars.
Proud OOTSK member
 
sccutler
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RE: FAA To Replace "Position And Hold" Eff Sep 30th

Sat Jul 17, 2010 5:10 am

Consistency is wise, but "line up and wait" is still ridiculous.

I will exercise my revolutionary streak by acknowledging that silly turn of phrase with "Position and hold."
...three miles from BRONS, clear for the ILS one five approach...
 
Maverick623
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RE: FAA To Replace "Position And Hold" Eff Sep 30th

Sat Jul 17, 2010 6:19 am

Quoting lowrider (Reply 8):
hectopascals

What did you just call me????   

Quoting SCCutler (Reply 9):
I will exercise my revolutionary streak by acknowledging that silly turn of phrase with "Position and hold."

"Let me know when you're ready to write down a number."

Is that enough syllables for you?

 
"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
 
CosmicCruiser
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RE: FAA To Replace "Position And Hold" Eff Sep 30th

Sat Jul 17, 2010 9:38 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 6):
But four one-syllable words are probably easier for many non-native English speaking pilots to understand, especially those with limited English skills. And there seem to be obvious advantages in using consistent terminology in both directions on flights between the US and the rest of the world.

Funny, I haven't had any foreign controllers cut me any slack when I don't understand them in China and India. They just repeat it faster!
 
slz396
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RE: FAA To Replace "Position And Hold" Eff Sep 30th

Sat Jul 17, 2010 10:23 am

Good, standard phraseology should be used by all, otherwise, there's no point in having it.

What was the reason for those "position and hold" instructions anyway?

Quoting SCCutler (Reply 9):
I will exercise my revolutionary streak by acknowledging that silly turn of phrase with "Position and hold."

I'd love to see the look on your face the first time you realise you'll just have read back a 'line up and wait' clearance without feeling odd about it!

It will happen sooner than you think!

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 10):
"Let me know when you're ready to write down a number."

ROTFL
 
CosmicCruiser
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RE: FAA To Replace "Position And Hold" Eff Sep 30th

Sat Jul 17, 2010 11:31 am

Quoting slz396 (Reply 12):
What was the reason for those "position and hold" instructions anyway?

Seems sort of obvious. "after the landing Delta 737 taxi into POSITION and HOLD" No different than the British "after the landing Ryanair LINE UP and WAIT". If you're in position then you can expedite the T/O when cleared.
 
cobra27
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RE: FAA To Replace "Position And Hold" Eff Sep 30th

Sat Jul 17, 2010 11:41 am

Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 1):
Me thinks anybody who would get confused would probably be you're once-in-a-year flight 76 year old sunday flier that's nearly deaf. Doubt the more proficient ones would ever get confused. Position and hold seems more than clear for me.

The problems arises when for example fatigued pilot with a bad day with some problems in cockpit that he must fix and is expecting to hear position and roll will probably misheard.
For example one pilot was instructed to descent to two trousand feet. He misheard two and crashed into terrain

Communicating with non english speakin controllers (italian, spanish, french) can a be a real pain in the ass.
 
hotplane
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RE: FAA To Replace "Position And Hold" Eff Sep 30th

Sat Jul 17, 2010 11:51 am

'Line up and wait' has been used in the UK if not the rest of Europe for as long as I can remember!
?
 
airbuster
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RE: FAA To Replace "Position And Hold" Eff Sep 30th

Sat Jul 17, 2010 2:48 pm

Quoting CosmicCruiser (Reply 13):
after the landing Ryanair LINE UP and WAIT

What about some other countries like the Netherlands having, BEHIND the landing Ryanair line up BEHIND.

Behind has to be said twice by the controller AND the pilot's acknowledgement.

rgds

AB
FLY FOKKER JET LINE!
 
B777LRF
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RE: FAA To Replace "Position And Hold" Eff Sep 30th

Sat Jul 17, 2010 10:10 pm

Actually it's "BEHIND the xxx line-up and wait BEHIND".

Pleased to see the US finally caving in and figuring out they're not an island onto themselves.

Now if they could just convert to HpA and Celcius ......  
Signature. You just read one.
 
Fly2HMO
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RE: FAA To Replace "Position And Hold" Eff Sep 30th

Sat Jul 17, 2010 10:22 pm

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 10):

"Let me know when you're ready to write down a number."

The obvious response to that would be "unable" 
Quoting cobra27 (Reply 14):
is expecting to hear position and roll

There's no such thing as position and roll, not officially as far as I know. So if a pilot misunderstands that as position and ROLL, knowing there really is no such procedure, then I think the pilot has some serious issues.

Quoting B777LRF (Reply 17):

Now if they could just convert to HpA and Celcius ......

Uhm, Celsius has been used in US aviation for ages.   

Screw HpA though, "two niner niner two" sounds much more nicer than "one-zero-one-three"  
 
DiamondFlyer
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RE: FAA To Replace "Position And Hold" Eff Sep 30th

Sat Jul 17, 2010 11:39 pm

Quoting flymia (Reply 3):
I think position and hold is more clear but I can see why they want to be the same as the ICAO with all the international flights. But someone who confused Postion and Hold to clear for takeoff should not be flying.

I'm of the same opinion. We invented the airplane, but yet have to conform to the rest of the world. Just how it clears anything up is beyond me, but whatever. I'll still try to say Position and Hold, for sure.


-DiamondFlyer
From my cold, dead hands
 
Maverick623
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RE: FAA To Replace "Position And Hold" Eff Sep 30th

Sun Jul 18, 2010 4:24 am

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 19):
We invented the airplane, but yet have to conform to the rest of the world. Just how it clears anything up is beyond me
Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 19):
I'll still try to say Position and Hold, for sure.

I dearly hope you're not being serious.

If you are, please turn in your CFI certificate. Nobody needs people like you teaching.
"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
 
DiamondFlyer
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RE: FAA To Replace "Position And Hold" Eff Sep 30th

Sun Jul 18, 2010 5:16 am

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 20):
I dearly hope you're not being serious.

If you are, please turn in your CFI certificate. Nobody needs people like you teaching.

Sorry, but, sarcasm isn't your strong suit. I was kidding with that stuff. Do I like the change? no I don't. I don't think it helps safety at all. Initially, it will do nothing more than add confusion. Will I deal with it yes. At least we haven't gone to the conditional clearance stuff, where they can clear you to position and hold behind a plane that hasn't landed yet.

-DiamondFlyer

[Edited 2010-07-17 22:26:48]
From my cold, dead hands
 
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Aaron747
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RE: FAA To Replace "Position And Hold" Eff Sep 30th

Sun Jul 18, 2010 7:32 am

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 19):

I'm of the same opinion.

Clearly you're not, since you said this:

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 19):
We invented the airplane, but yet have to conform to the rest of the world.

As the poster you responded to said, there is a need to employ commonality with ICAO terminology. This fact may have somehow escaped you, but the rest of the world is flying airplanes too - and often to the United States.

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 19):
Just how it clears anything up is beyond me, but whatever.

If you ever have a communication misunderstanding with a foreign pilot on frequency, you just might come to an understanding. As previously stated, "line up and wait" is easier for second language users of English to understand. Unless you'd like to change the lingua franca of ATC in the US, I'm for phraseology that will allow all users of the system to be clear about what is going on. Why anyone would expect, much less desire, foreigners to use phrases that cause them confusion is a bizarre concept to me.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
cobra27
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RE: FAA To Replace "Position And Hold" Eff Sep 30th

Sun Jul 18, 2010 8:29 am

Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 18):
There's no such thing as position and roll, not officially as far as I know. So if a pilot misunderstands that as position and ROLL, knowing there really is no such procedure, then I think the pilot has some serious issues.

True, I haven't here it either. I think ATC communications are the probably the easiest thing to learn but hard to master
 
CosmicCruiser
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RE: FAA To Replace "Position And Hold" Eff Sep 30th

Sun Jul 18, 2010 8:30 am

The argument is somewhat silly. Come on, Position and Hold is no more difficult than Line up and wait. They're both English and any professional pilot flying shouldn't have a problem with either. Now if you want to talk about about a chance for confusion just start looking at the Arpt Ops Info for every foreign airport you may fly to and you'll find subtle differences EVERYWHERE that create an extra workload for any pilot. Now let's throw in those tricky little transition levels/altitudes that change from country to country and most times daily! While we in the US have kept the standard fl180(500mb) since for ever. Come on rest of the world make it standard!! Geez, UK TA is 6000 while FR next door is 4000! The TL change daily. Now I'll take position and hold and 180 any day!  
 
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Aaron747
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RE: FAA To Replace "Position And Hold" Eff Sep 30th

Sun Jul 18, 2010 10:41 am

Quoting CosmicCruiser (Reply 24):
They're both English and any professional pilot flying shouldn't have a problem with either.

This is true but you've been on the job with a headset more than long enough to know that not all countries and operators within them have always taken the English proficiency requirements as seriously as ICAO would like. Therefore in the interest of safety, what is clear to people who use the language in an ESL context should be used. "Wait" has a clearer meaning to these persons than "hold".

What people memorize and what they understand are two completely different things. I'll never forget when I was doing ATC consulting recently in Japan, I came across a controller who had been certified for over 5 years, and showed them a picture card of a normal aircraft landing and asked them to describe the scene. They stated that the "tires were burning".

[Edited 2010-07-18 03:46:05]
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
WESTERN737800
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RE: FAA To Replace "Position And Hold" Eff Sep 30th

Sun Jul 18, 2010 12:57 pm

I was brought up with position and hold. I like it and I'm used to it. However, I can see benifit to line up and wait. I was in the right seat with a friend of mine, we were given position and hold. Both of us were fatigued, I thought atc said hold short, point being position and hold and hold short sound very much alike for fatigued pilots. Hold short and line up and wait sound different, less likely to be confused.
Bring back Western Airlines!
 
lowrider
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RE: FAA To Replace "Position And Hold" Eff Sep 30th

Sun Jul 18, 2010 2:04 pm

Quoting CosmicCruiser (Reply 24):
Now let's throw in those tricky little transition levels/altitudes that change from country to country and most times daily!

That would be a bit of standardization I would buy into. Even if it is not the whole world, could we at least get each continent standardized?
Proud OOTSK member
 
DiamondFlyer
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RE: FAA To Replace "Position And Hold" Eff Sep 30th

Sun Jul 18, 2010 4:30 pm

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 22):
If you ever have a communication misunderstanding with a foreign pilot on frequency, you just might come to an understanding. As previously stated, "line up and wait" is easier for second language users of English to understand. Unless you'd like to change the lingua franca of ATC in the US, I'm for phraseology that will allow all users of the system to be clear about what is going on. Why anyone would expect, much less desire, foreigners to use phrases that cause them confusion is a bizarre concept to me.

Perhaps it would be easier to actually make sure people can speak English than it is to continually change the way the system works. Every day I hear pilots who can't speak English flying around, and its downright scary. Its bad enough they are learning to fly, but couple that with trying to learn English at the same time, and something needs to be done.

There needs to be a crackdown on the "English Proficient" limitation on FAA licenses. Perhaps a test of some kind, but the current system isn't working.

-DiamondFlyer
From my cold, dead hands
 
ThePinnacleKid
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RE: FAA To Replace "Position And Hold" Eff Sep 30th

Sun Jul 18, 2010 6:21 pm

And yet.. to all those that want to see conformity in the US to use ICAO phraseology.. as a pilot that operates all over the US and to select other north american countries... I contend that for safety, it's about time that they were NOT allowed to use languages other than english on the radios... I'm sick of hearing Spanish on the air in Mexico and French on the radios in Canada... sure they talk to us in English.. but after-all English is the official language of aviation.. as such, you are tech. required to use it... For the safety of all the other aircraft.. i.e. me... I would appreciate being able to understand the things being said to the other aluminum tubes hurtling around me.....

Will I use "Line up and Wait" in the US... yes...

do I like it... no

do I understand and appreciate why they are conforming.. Oh yeah! Listen to Mexicana/AeroMexico/AirChina... etc... on the US radios and one quickly understands the need for making it as elementary school easy as possible... That said.. it really is sad we have to go to that... part of being able to be an airline pilot requires "English Proficient"... being proficient should include the ability to be able to understand "Position" and "hold" as they aren't exactly the hardest words in the English language...just like "Line-up" and "wait" aren't hard either... Its just sad that it's a dumbing down, if you will... egh, such is life... why raise the standards when you can lower them.
"Sonny, did we land? or were we shot down?"
 
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Aaron747
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RE: FAA To Replace "Position And Hold" Eff Sep 30th

Sun Jul 18, 2010 6:29 pm

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 28):
Perhaps it would be easier to actually make sure people can speak English than it is to continually change the way the system works

Right there with you...unfortunately ICAO, like a lot of other international organizations, doesn't have a whole lot of enforcement authority. Everyone knows there are pilots out there who can't use English as well as is necessary to keep the system safe, but nobody really does anything about it. As for people who come to the US to train when they still haven't learned the language well and get a pass from the FAA, let's just chalk that up to the government trying to keep 141 schools in business. The almighty dollar trumps safety yet again  
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
unattendedbag
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RE: FAA To Replace "Position And Hold" Eff Sep 30th

Sun Jul 18, 2010 6:37 pm

I would find it disturbing if a controller gave a command like "position and hold" or "line up and wait" to a pilot that had a limited grasp of the English language or was unfamiliar with the phraseology of flight. If it takes several attempts to get the pilot to the runway, it would be criminal to rush a departure and put that guy on the runway with an aircraft approaching or an aircraft crossing down field.

The levels of flight knowledge and familiarization increase proportionately with the levels of traffic at an airport. That's why JFK and ATL don't have flight schools on property.
Slower traffic, keep right
 
etherealsky
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RE: FAA To Replace "Position And Hold" Eff Sep 30th

Sun Jul 18, 2010 8:45 pm

Quoting CosmicCruiser (Reply 24):
The argument is somewhat silly.
[...]
for every foreign airport you may fly to and you'll find subtle differences EVERYWHERE that create an extra workload for any pilot.
Quoting CosmicCruiser (Reply 24):
Come on rest of the world make it standard!

You do realize the irony in your post, right?  

A note about "line up and wait" - I agree that it might sound a bit childish at first, but realize that the controller is actually directing you to "line up" with the rwy centerline, not with a queue of other airplanes waiting to go play on the jungle gym...

Besides, you can't deny that it is a bit easier to say "line up and wait" quickly than it is to say "position and hold" quickly.
"And that's why you always leave a note..."
 
Mir
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RE: FAA To Replace "Position And Hold" Eff Sep 30th

Sun Jul 18, 2010 9:06 pm

Quoting etherealsky (Reply 32):
Besides, you can't deny that it is a bit easier to say "line up and wait" quickly than it is to say "position and hold" quickly.

I don't know - maybe it's because I've been doing it for so long, but I can rattle off "position and hold" faster than I can "line up and wait".

Quoting CosmicCruiser (Reply 24):
Now if you want to talk about about a chance for confusion just start looking at the Arpt Ops Info for every foreign airport you may fly to and you'll find subtle differences EVERYWHERE that create an extra workload for any pilot.

   The number of airport info pages for some airports just boggles the mind, and I have no idea how crews manage to keep it all straight.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
romeomike
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RE: FAA To Replace "Position And Hold" Eff Sep 30th

Sun Jul 18, 2010 9:51 pm

We've been doing it in Canada for a couple years now (I think? Time flies.) At first I was of the same opinion as many of you -- that it sounded silly, and "position and hold" was much more professional sounding. Truth is, just like any change, the new ways quickly become normal and commonplace. I certainly don't think about it anymore.

There are still the occasional hold-out pilots who will only read it back as, "position and hold", but it really doesn't take long to adjust to something like this. Pilots are saying it a dozen times a day, controllers are saying it hundreds... you get used to it  

Regardless of what "position and hold" can or cannot be confused with, or misunderstood to be by an English speaker or non-, I think it can only contribute to safety to have more of the worlds' pilots and controllers using the same phraseology.
 
P3Orion
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RE: FAA To Replace "Position And Hold" Eff Sep 30th

Sun Jul 18, 2010 9:55 pm

Quoting CosmicCruiser (Reply 13):
Seems sort of obvious. "after the landing Delta 737 taxi into POSITION and HOLD" No different than the British "after the landing Ryanair LINE UP and WAIT". If you're in position then you can expedite the T/O when cleared.

This is what is known as a conditional clearance and is not (THANKFULLY) authorized by the FAA. That is a disaster waiting to happen.
Baker's 7 year, Carpano Antica, Luxardo, Bittercube cherry bark vanilla bitters
 
sccutler
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RE: FAA To Replace "Position And Hold" Eff Sep 30th

Mon Jul 19, 2010 4:27 am

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 10):

Quoting SCCutler (Reply 9):
I will exercise my revolutionary streak by acknowledging that silly turn of phrase with "Position and hold."

"Let me know when you're ready to write down a number."

Is that enough syllables for you?


Having heard the dreaded "...advise ready to copy a phone number..." issued - to others - I have no desire to receive the same directive. My tongue was firmly in cheek there. I've had almost universally good experiences with the excellent and professional controllers here, and have no intention to sully that relationship.

Quoting slz396 (Reply 12):

Quoting SCCutler (Reply 9):
I will exercise my revolutionary streak by acknowledging that silly turn of phrase with "Position and hold."

I'd love to see the look on your face the first time you realise you'll just have read back a 'line up and wait' clearance without feeling odd about it!

It will happen sooner than you think!

I expect it ... I'll be scowling pathetically, but imagine I'll overcome the insult...

Quoting WESTERN737800 (Reply 26):
I was brought up with position and hold. I like it and I'm used to it. However, I can see benifit to line up and wait. I was in the right seat with a friend of mine, we were given position and hold. Both of us were fatigued, I thought atc said hold short, point being position and hold and hold short sound very much alike for fatigued pilots. Hold short and line up and wait sound different, less likely to be confused.

This is the principal justification - nothing else sounds like, "line up and wait," which (come to think of it) might just be the reason for the different wording. It still sounds silly, though, and when I am issued "line up and wait," I will (as I do now, with "position and hold") NOT line directly up with the runway centerline, but rather, will have sufficient angle so I can keep an eye on the approach, just in case a controller is having a bad day. Or, me.
...three miles from BRONS, clear for the ILS one five approach...
 
Alias1024
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RE: FAA To Replace "Position And Hold" Eff Sep 30th

Mon Jul 19, 2010 4:30 am

I'm really glad to see this change.

Quoting WESTERN737800 (Reply 26):
I was in the right seat with a friend of mine, we were given position and hold. Both of us were fatigued, I thought atc said hold short, point being position and hold and hold short sound very much alike for fatigued pilots. Hold short and line up and wait sound different, less likely to be confused.

I've been of the opinion that the FAA needed to change this since seeing a similar incident where a "hold short" instruction was confused with a "position and hold". In my case I saw a student pilot on a solo flight receive a "hold short" and then watched in disbelief as they taxied into position on the runway with another aircraft inside of a one mile final. Needless to say, the end result was a go around for the aircraft on final and a phone number being given to the student pilot to pass on to his instructor.

I'd never thought about it before that day, but ever since then I've been convinced that having the word "hold" in the instructions both to enter a runway and to not enter a runway is a very bad idea.
It is a mistake to think you can solve any major problems with just potatoes.
 
Maverick623
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RE: FAA To Replace "Position And Hold" Eff Sep 30th

Mon Jul 19, 2010 8:24 am

Quoting SCCutler (Reply 36):
My tongue was firmly in cheek there

As was mine.  
Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 21):
Sorry, but, sarcasm isn't your strong suit

Ummm.... this is the internet. I really wasn't sure if you were serious or not (plus I spend wayyy to much time in non-av   )
"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
 
NBGSkyGod
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RE: FAA To Replace "Position And Hold" Eff Sep 30th

Tue Jul 20, 2010 1:31 am

Quoting P3Orion (Reply 35):
Quoting CosmicCruiser (Reply 13):
Seems sort of obvious. "after the landing Delta 737 taxi into POSITION and HOLD" No different than the British "after the landing Ryanair LINE UP and WAIT". If you're in position then you can expedite the T/O when cleared.

This is what is known as a conditional clearance and is not (THANKFULLY) authorized by the FAA. That is a disaster waiting to happen.

I would have to agree with you there. That type of conditional clearance will cause more problems than it will ever help, especially at GA airports where "line up and wait after landing cessna" just won't cut it with 5 cessnas on final. And on the line up and wait aurgument, I think an interchangeable TIPH and LUAW phraseology would be much more acceptable, for facilties that see very few foreign flights.
Pilots are idiots, who at any given moment will attempt to kill themselves or others.
 
Maverick623
Posts: 4726
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 9:13 am

RE: FAA To Replace "Position And Hold" Eff Sep 30th

Tue Jul 20, 2010 7:00 am

Quoting nbgskygod (Reply 39):
I think an interchangeable TIPH and LUAW phraseology would be much more acceptable, for facilties that see very few foreign flights.

I disagree, simply because non-foreign GA pilots often do not just stay at their home airport.
"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
 
bri2k1
Posts: 952
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RE: FAA To Replace "Position And Hold" Eff Sep 30th

Tue Jul 20, 2010 7:22 pm

Quoting ThePinnacleKid (Reply 29):
use languages other than english on the radios

The sickness factor for me is not related to hearing the other languages, it's my own lack of situational awareness that comes out of them.

When everyone is speaking (and understands) the same language, it's easy to hear that I'm second in line for a runway, or whatever the situation is. But when I'm the only one being spoken to in English, it's likely that neither myself nor the other pilots know where I am in relation to them, and I feel this is a detriment to safety.

If English is the international language for ATC chosen by ICAO, then I agree it should be primarily utilized, again purely for situational awareness.
Position and hold
 
slz396
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Joined: Tue Oct 02, 2001 7:01 am

RE: FAA To Replace "Position And Hold" Eff Sep 30th

Thu Jul 22, 2010 11:48 am

Quoting CosmicCruiser (Reply 13):
Seems sort of obvious. "after the landing Delta 737 taxi into POSITION and HOLD" No different than the British "after the landing Ryanair LINE UP and WAIT". If you're in position then you can expedite the T/O when cleared.

I know that my friend; the question obviously was why the US had a different phraseology on this particular thing in the first place, whereas all other FAA clearances are ICAO compliant...

[Edited 2010-07-22 04:53:00]
 
slz396
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RE: FAA To Replace "Position And Hold" Eff Sep 30th

Thu Jul 22, 2010 11:52 am

Quoting Alias1024 (Reply 37):
I've been of the opinion that the FAA needed to change this since seeing a similar incident where a "hold short" instruction was confused with a "position and hold

This is the main reason why ICAO has 'line up and wait', rather than 'taxi into position and hold'.

'hold position' simply is too similar to 'position and hold'; it opens the door to a disaster just waiting to happen, so it's good to see it finally go from US skies!
 
atpcliff
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RE: FAA To Replace "Position And Hold" Eff Sep 30th

Sat Jul 24, 2010 5:39 pm

Hi!

And, overseas, they often say "Taxi to Holding Position, Runway XX" or "Taxi to Holding Point, Runway XX". So, the Lineup and Wait is quit different.

cliff
LFW
TRY. It's all you have control over, and it's what God wants.
 
CosmicCruiser
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RE: FAA To Replace "Position And Hold" Eff Sep 30th

Sat Jul 24, 2010 8:45 pm

Quoting etherealsky (Reply 32):
You do realize the irony in your post, right?

That was the point, read on

Quoting etherealsky (Reply 32):
Besides, you can't deny that it is a bit easier to say "line up and wait" quickly than it is to say "position and hold" quickly.

I've never noticed it was ever said quickly for any reason.

Quoting Mir (Reply 33):
The number of airport info pages for some airports just boggles the mind, and I have no idea how crews manage to keep it all straight.

That was the point of my previous post. The numerous little differences we must be aware of and brief are much more potentially missed, time consuming, and just a plain pain in the ass than whether a controller says LU&W or P&H can ever be. Maybe those of you that, like us, can find yourself transiting 5,6 or 7 countries on one trip you can appreciate staring at those AOI pages to make sure you haven't missed anything important. Even the way some countries describe their NADP procedures can make you scratch your head and/or just play it safe, NADP 1!!    
 
bri2k1
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RE: FAA To Replace "Position And Hold" Eff Sep 30th

Tue Aug 17, 2010 1:28 pm

Two serious questions about LUAW:

One, what is a pilot supposed to read back? "Lining up and waiting?" How about just "Roger?" That seems detrimental without at a minimum reading back the runway assignment. I might just feel frisky enough to read back "position and hold," we'll see. Certainly at my home base where I know most of the controllers outside of the cab, this is a possibility.

Lastly, how do controllers plan to deal with pilots who become confused about the new instruction? TIPH/LUAW is used to speed up the flow of traffic onto the runway when clearing for departure such that arrival (and other departure, for that matter) spacing can be reduced without compromising safety. At the moment the LC gives a LUAW clearance, that runway can't be used for anything else until that traffic enters the runway and then departs. If a pilot thinks (s)he's just heard "blah blah WAIT" and sits there at the hold line, safety is compromised. The controller could cancel the clearance and allow an arrival to continue, but if the pilot suddenly remembers what LUAW means and taxis ahead, now we've got an incursion, and we were just cleared onto the runway a few seconds ago. I imagine I'll hear a number of controllers issuing "Line Up and Wait, Runway XX, that means position and hold." What do you controllers plan to do?
Position and hold
 
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EGTESkyGod
Posts: 1531
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RE: FAA To Replace "Position And Hold" Eff Sep 30th

Tue Aug 17, 2010 1:46 pm

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 19):
We invented the airplane, but yet have to conform to the rest of the world.

Yeah? Well we invented the language so keep up...!!!            Hehehe.

Quoting slz396 (Reply 43):
'hold position' simply is too similar to 'position and hold'; it opens the door to a disaster just waiting to happen, so it's good to see it finally go from US skies!

EXACTLY the point I was going to make. I cannot see any standard RT that could be confused with "LINE UP AND WAIT." Having used this since I started my training I guess that it's because I'm used to it. I've not been to the US yet but I'd like to one day, especially to fly and one of the things I was slightly apprehensive about was different RT phrases used there. Having been to Australia I know they use pretty much the same as the UK, but in the US there are still some subtle differences such as "SAY heading" instead of "REPORT heading" for example. Wherever you fly, you'll get used to it.
I came, I saw, I Concorde! www.gofundme.com/lineupandwait
 
xero9
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Joined: Thu Feb 22, 2007 3:12 am

RE: FAA To Replace "Position And Hold" Eff Sep 30th

Wed Aug 18, 2010 1:25 am

Quoting bri2k1 (Reply 46):
One, what is a pilot supposed to read back? "Lining up and waiting?" How about just "Roger?" That seems detrimental without at a minimum reading back the runway assignment. I might just feel frisky enough to read back "position and hold," we'll see. Certainly at my home base where I know most of the controllers outside of the cab, this is a possibility.

"Lining up, ABC" is all you need to say.
 
Glom
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RE: FAA To Replace "Position And Hold" Eff Sep 30th

Wed Aug 18, 2010 7:49 am

Quoting bri2k1 (Reply 46):
At the moment the LC gives a LUAW clearance, that runway can't be used for anything else until that traffic enters the runway and then departs. If a pilot thinks (s)he's just heard "blah blah WAIT" and sits there at the hold line, safety is compromised. The controller could cancel the clearance and allow an arrival to continue, but if the pilot suddenly remembers what LUAW means and taxis ahead, now we've got an incursion, and we were just cleared onto the runway a few seconds ago.

How is this any different from the regional dialect? As has been commented, there have been cases of pilots confusing "hold short" and "position and hold" due to poor readability.

But "line up and wait" has three advantages:
1) "wait" isn't used in any other standard phraseology and so isn't going to be confused by anyone who knows better.
2) since "line up and wait" would only be used when giving clearance for entering the active, mis-hearing and holding position will mean the pilot just sits in the safety of the taxiway rather than under the regional dialect where a hold short instruction could be misheard as a clearance to enter.
3) it standardises the phraseology with what the rest of the world use, eliminating confusion caused by differing regional dialects.

There may be some pangs with the introduction as all changes have, but in the long term, it will be more optimal.

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