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DiamondFlyer
Posts: 3463
Joined: Wed Oct 29, 2008 11:50 pm

RE: New US Airline Pilot Minimums: 1500 Total Hours

Wed Jul 28, 2010 2:09 am

Quoting DashTrash (Reply 49):
What habits are you talking about? Airline flying is very scripted. It doesn't take long in sim training to adapt to the new airplane.

Its very easy to develop bad habits in the instrument flight world, when all people do is their minimum 6 approaches every 6 months. I've seen people do incredibly dumb things, that they wouldn't do if they had the means to practice/utilize their instrument skills on a regular basis. Flight instructing isn't going to do that.

Quoting DashTrash (Reply 49):
Wasn't aware of that, and I've heard about the PFJ guys where you buy your endorsement. I can't say I've ever heard of a union stance on PFT. I'm a former union rep and have never heard of it being addressed. Personally, I don't like it, but have friends that have done it.

Yeah, most of them are pay for the endorsement, which I believe is a joke. There is a notorious one around here that promises a job, after you spend a couple thousand dollars, but no job ever shows up. Even then, most of them are around 500 TT in order to pull the banners.

I'm not aware of unions specifically saying they don't like the PFT/PFJ, but I don't see why they shouldn't. People are paying to sit in the seat, and otherwise someone would be getting paid to be there.

Quoting DashTrash (Reply 49):
I doubt it. Most of the CFI's around here are instructing guys who will go no further than their instrument rating. The newly minted pilots who aspire to fly for the airlines are the minority (unless you're in Florida....ha ha).

Even if people don't do it for free, there will be such a saturation of flight instructors that it won't produce a livable wage for anyone. Right now, if you get into it right, you can live on flight instructing. Take the number of instructors and multiply it by 3-4x, and there just won't be enough students to go around. Couple that with what will be a decrease in career oriented students, and it'll just make it worse.

-DiamondFlyer
From my cold, dead hands
 
goboeing
Posts: 2575
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2000 5:31 am

RE: New US Airline Pilot Minimums: 1500 Total Hours

Wed Jul 28, 2010 3:08 am

Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 10):
I somehow think it will pass, unfortunately for us low timers. Total knee jerk reaction IMO.

The retards in congress don't seem to grasp that the problem with the Colgan pilots was that they were OVERWORKED, not inexperienced or improperly trained. And sure, the captain had a few busted check rides but that's not uncommon.

It's not kneejerk reaction at all.

Overworked, okay, yeah they are overworked but not on the day they flew. She was flying sick and he was flying clueless. She put the flaps up during an already-botched stall recovery. How can you possibly say the F/O was properly trained when she did that? How can you say the captain was trained properly when he was pulling the yoke back during the entire stall? They could have nosed down a few degrees and continued the approach but instead it turned into an utterly fouled up mess that you can't even make up because it just doesn't sound real.

The captain had more than the usual amount of a few busted checkrides and he had multiple failed training events at Colgan in addition to his certificates prior to 121 flying.

Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 10):
I'd like to know how they plan to get more pilots considering nobody finishes flight school with over 300 hours. And just WHERE are those guys going to get 1500hrs from? CFIing? right... its pretty much impossible to find a flying job right now having less than 500hrs logged, even so a few years ago when the economy was somewhat better.

It doesn't matter where they are going to get them from -- that is the point.

Hypothetical situation.

Say you need 2 pilots to fly a jet and you've got 5 working in your corporate flight department.

Well, all five on this particular day are not in any condition to fly. One is recovering from back surgery the day before. The other attended his spouses funeral this morning and is mentally a wreck. Two others have very bad sinus blocks and are coughing with runny noses. The fifth one, the 'spare', wasn't going to be on call at all on this day, but hey, someone's got to fly so your company calls him. Turns out, he was at a wedding the night before and got drunk and is now feeling quite hungover.

Would you still have your corporate jet fly? How would you do this? Just pick the least bad two and have them do it? Maybe the guy who went to his wife's funeral that morning plus the guy with the hangover? Nope, he's still technically under the influence of alcohol and the other guy can't really pass the "IMSAFE" checklist with the stress either. Should the two with sinus blocks do it? Hey, they can just fly down the east coast at 3000 feet right?

That is an exaggerated example but my point is this.

We know that pilots with 200 total time in the right seat of a jet by the way the USA training goes, are a hazard. Ask any check airman or any captain that has flown with them.

It's not their fault, but they're just not pulling their weight because they have no experience. Sure they can fly the profiles in the sim but what do you bring to the table when the captain is talking to the cabin crew on the phone with a potential medical emergency and you get a crossing restriction from ATC that leaves you wondering what to do first: enter it into the MCDU, start down manually because you have a feeling with your mental math that it's going to be tight? Interrupt the medical scene and ask the skipper??

Again that is an example but it's totally ridiculous to have someone in the right seat with 200 hours unless we have massive changes in the way pilots are trained. i.e., Chinese students go back to China and spend hours and hours in the jumpseat observing and doing WAY more sim training and WAY more IOE flying than pilots here.

1500TT isn't all that needs to be done but it is a step in the right direction.
 
etherealsky
Posts: 211
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RE: New US Airline Pilot Minimums: 1500 Total Hours

Wed Jul 28, 2010 3:45 am

Quoting GoBoeing (Reply 51):
Overworked, okay, yeah they are overworked but not on the day they flew. She was flying sick and he was flying clueless. She put the flaps up during an already-botched stall recovery. How can you possibly say the F/O was properly trained when she did that? How can you say the captain was trained properly when he was pulling the yoke back during the entire stall? They could have nosed down a few degrees and continued the approach but instead it turned into an utterly fouled up mess that you can't even make up because it just doesn't sound real.

The captain had more than the usual amount of a few busted checkrides and he had multiple failed training events at Colgan in addition to his certificates prior to 121 flying.

Nobody 's arguing this... I think we can all agree that the factors you mentioned above caused the accident. The thing is, lack of hours was not one of them. As has been stated before, both the crew members had well over 2000 hours, which is way more than what this law would require. Hence the reason why this legislation would not have prevented the accident, and hence the reason why it has been called a kneejerk reaction. It doesn't address the problem it was created in the wake of. That problem is experience, not time.

Quoting GoBoeing (Reply 51):
Again that is an example but it's totally ridiculous to have someone in the right seat with 200 hours unless we have massive changes in the way pilots are trained.

Nobody's asking to be in the right seat of a jet at 200 hours. Of course that is a ridiculous scenario; I agree that it would be asking for trouble. *However* there is a big difference between a 200-hour F/O and a 1500-hour F/O. The tough part of this whole debate is successfully finding a balance between the requirement for experience in the right seat with the realistic expectations that the industry must have for new F/O's.

Besides, in the medical emergency example that you posted, how would having 1500 hours of flight instruction time (which is the most common way of time-building, is it not?) make a difference in that situation? (Aside from greater proficiency in multi-tasking)

[Edited 2010-07-27 20:47:55]
"And that's why you always leave a note..."
 
DashTrash
Posts: 1328
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RE: New US Airline Pilot Minimums: 1500 Total Hours

Wed Jul 28, 2010 3:57 am

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 50):
Its very easy to develop bad habits in the instrument flight world, when all people do is their minimum 6 approaches every 6 months. I've seen people do incredibly dumb things, that they wouldn't do if they had the means to practice/utilize their instrument skills on a regular basis. Flight instructing isn't going to do that.

If you have poor instrument skills, you'll have them in the airline world as well, and likely to wash out of training. I've said it numerous times. The cockpit of an airliner is not a classroom, it is a workplace. You're bound to learn while you're in it, but that is not it's purpose.
 
lowrider
Posts: 2542
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RE: New US Airline Pilot Minimums: 1500 Total Hours

Wed Jul 28, 2010 2:12 pm

Quoting DashTrash (Reply 49):
Most of the 135 freight has always been single pilot.

There is a good amount of 2 pilot 135 freight out there. It just occurs in aircraft such as Lears, Falcons, Bandits, and Shorts, or at companies who would rather pay a second pilot than the higher insurance premium.

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 50):
Flight instructing isn't going to do that.

Throughout the debate there have been a lot of people who have talked down about flight instruction as a way to build time. I wonder how much instruction those people have given. I was a CFI for a few years at a small FBO where I primairly did private and instrument instruction. I had the occasional multi student, and a few tailwheel sign offs. I always found a way to stay proficient on my IFR skills, whether it was catching some time with someone else, flying with a Private pilot who had to get somewhere on an IFR day, or on a couple of occasions, splitting time with another CFI acting as safety pilot. My instrument proficiency never lapsed the entire time I instructed. Along the way I learned quite a bit about working with other people, and most importantly, making judgement calls. For examply, how far are you going to let a situation progress before you take the aircraft from a student? You will probably face that same scenerio at least once at an airline. I was occasionally faced with having to tell a student who really wanted to go that we couldn't fly that day. You will have to make the same decision in any professional flying position. In addition, all the time I spent at the airport allowed me to network my way into other, unadvertised, opportunities. To say that the time gained from instructing does nothing to prepare you for future work is absurd.
Proud OOTSK member
 
DiamondFlyer
Posts: 3463
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RE: New US Airline Pilot Minimums: 1500 Total Hours

Wed Jul 28, 2010 3:56 pm

Quoting lowrider (Reply 54):
In addition, all the time I spent at the airport allowed me to network my way into other, unadvertised, opportunities. To say that the time gained from instructing does nothing to prepare you for future work is absurd.

Sure, it helps, but the arguments are that new pilots don't know how to handle flying in challenging weather conditions, icing, dodging thunderstorms, etc... Those aren't conditions your going to get flying as a flight instructor. Look, I don't deny that flight instructing is a good way to build time, but as a CFI, that isn't the primary objective. If someone doesn't have the desire to teach, they'll be a horrible CFI, but yet they will basically be forced into doing flight instruction. Even today, the quality of flight instruction in many places is awful, as a result of the hiring boom of a couple years ago. Flight schools bred with incest. Brand new flight instructors teaching brand new commercial pilots to be flight instructors, is how things happened in lots of places.

Perhaps its time to refine the requirements for flight instructing as well.

-DiamondFlyer
From my cold, dead hands
 
goboeing
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RE: New US Airline Pilot Minimums: 1500 Total Hours

Wed Jul 28, 2010 4:04 pm

Quoting etherealsky (Reply 52):
Nobody 's arguing this... I think we can all agree that the factors you mentioned above caused the accident. The thing is, lack of hours was not one of them. As has been stated before, both the crew members had well over 2000 hours, which is way more than what this law would require. Hence the reason why this legislation would not have prevented the accident, and hence the reason why it has been called a kneejerk reaction. It doesn't address the problem it was created in the wake of. That problem is experience, not time.

I agree, that's what I mean by it not being the only solution but it is a very good step in the right direction.

Quoting etherealsky (Reply 52):
Nobody's asking to be in the right seat of a jet at 200 hours. Of course that is a ridiculous scenario; I agree that it would be asking for trouble. *However* there is a big difference between a 200-hour F/O and a 1500-hour F/O. The tough part of this whole debate is successfully finding a balance between the requirement for experience in the right seat with the realistic expectations that the industry must have for new F/O's.

Well, that scenario which you agree with being ridiculous, happened quite a bit three years ago when hiring was going strong at the vendor level of the industry.

What is the realistic expectations you refer to? Finding enough pilots?

There are lots and lots of 91/135 pilots that would go to an airline job if the pay for the first few years was reasonable. Adjust that, and they will come in droves.

Quoting etherealsky (Reply 52):
Besides, in the medical emergency example that you posted, how would having 1500 hours of flight instruction time (which is the most common way of time-building, is it not?) make a difference in that situation? (Aside from greater proficiency in multi-tasking)

I had 1200 hours when I went from CFI to 121 jet.

Of my class of 32 new hires, 6 washed out. Six!! One of them even flew the airplane and still didn't pass.

A lot happens in the first thousand hours. Even if it's just flight instruction, you learn how to share a cockpit with another person, even if they are just a student. You learn how to communicate things to the other pilot without sounding condescending if they are forgetting something. You learn when not to say something.

Even if an applicant reaches 1500TT with nothing but dual given I guarantee they are going to be a safer new-hire F/O than someone who has 200TT. There is simply no comparison. A couple years ago we had people who'd do their first ILS to minimums in a jet with passengers on board. Kinda scary!

I'm glad this is the new rule.
 
etherealsky
Posts: 211
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RE: New US Airline Pilot Minimums: 1500 Total Hours

Wed Jul 28, 2010 9:35 pm

Quoting GoBoeing (Reply 56):
Well, that scenario which you agree with being ridiculous, happened quite a bit three years ago when hiring was going strong at the vendor level of the industry

True, but as I posted before, why should 1500 hours be the magic number? Again, I agree that TT less than 500 hours is probably too low, but from the way I understood your post, you implied that a 1500 TT requirement is necessary to keep 200 hour pilots out of the right seat of a jet (it's entirely possible that I misunderstood). As the Colgan accident reinforced, there's not straightforward correlation between time logged and experience.

Quoting GoBoeing (Reply 56):
A lot happens in the first thousand hours. Even if it's just flight instruction, you learn how to share a cockpit with another person, even if they are just a student. You learn how to communicate things to the other pilot without sounding condescending if they are forgetting something. You learn when not to say something.

Good points, I agree.

Quoting GoBoeing (Reply 56):
There are lots and lots of 91/135 pilots that would go to an airline job if the pay for the first few years was reasonable. Adjust that, and they will come in droves.

You're probably right but this legislation doesn't address pilot compensation or any quality of life issues, for that matter. Like DiamondFlyer mentioned - the balance is in keeping the requirements for advancement (to the 121 world in this case) low enough so that people in the starter jobs are able to move on and leave those positions open to the pilots who are just earning their commercial/CFI tickets. Of course pilots in the higher-end 91 and 135 jobs are not going to go anywhere because those are often better than airline jobs, so they are irrelevant, but I'm talking about the entry level pilot positions, which are not so abundant these days.

Quoting GoBoeing (Reply 56):
Even if an applicant reaches 1500TT with nothing but dual given I guarantee they are going to be a safer new-hire F/O than someone who has 200TT. There is simply no comparison

Again, I agree but we can;t forget the balance. Is it worth "clogging up the system" as others have put it by requiring a 1500-hour F/O, or will a new hire with, say, 800-1000 do just fine? (Or maybe I'm looking at this whole thing the wrong way and this law would not cause a backup of low-time pilots waiting for jobs to build time..?)
"And that's why you always leave a note..."
 
goboeing
Posts: 2575
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2000 5:31 am

RE: New US Airline Pilot Minimums: 1500 Total Hours

Wed Jul 28, 2010 9:55 pm

Quoting etherealsky (Reply 57):
True, but as I posted before, why should 1500 hours be the magic number?

Why should it be the magic number for the ATP in the first place?
ew
Why should 35/40 hours be the magic number for the private?

1500 is just the number of hours they picked for this rule. I guess everything else was too close to commercial certificate minimums.

Quoting etherealsky (Reply 57):
As the Colgan accident reinforced, there's not straightforward correlation between time logged and experience.

You are correct, there is not.

That's why good training is important.

And, since the entire FAA DPE checkride system is a bit of a sham and numerous airlines at the vendor level are doing a horrible job training their pilots, apparently we need to have the government come in and start raising the entry requirements as an additional attempt to get good pilots in the new hire spots.

Quoting etherealsky (Reply 57):
Is it worth "clogging up the system" as others have put it by requiring a 1500-hour F/O, or will a new hire with, say, 800-1000 do just fine? (Or maybe I'm looking at this whole thing the wrong way and this law would not cause a backup of low-time pilots waiting for jobs to build time..?)

Who cares about clogging up the system.

If it gets clogged, maybe airlines will actually start offering hiring bonuses. There was a tiny little bit of that starting up in 2007 but it ended when things started to slow down with oil and the economy ending hiring.

It's going to be a couple years until it is implemented. By then, anyone that is getting their CMEL today will have 1500 hours anyway. It will only effect those that have yet to start training.

And if people don't want to reach 1500TT before they work at an airline, they might not be the type of people we want flying jets in the 121 environment anyway.

I say this fully admitting that I got hired with 1200TT but another few months of what I was doing when I was hired would not have hurt at all and everyone is held to the same requirements.
 
DiamondFlyer
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RE: New US Airline Pilot Minimums: 1500 Total Hours

Wed Jul 28, 2010 11:04 pm

Quoting GoBoeing (Reply 58):

And, since the entire FAA DPE checkride system is a bit of a sham and numerous airlines at the vendor level are doing a horrible job training their pilots, apparently we need to have the government come in and start raising the entry requirements as an additional attempt to get good pilots in the new hire spots.

Its not just DPE's that are a joke. A vast majority of the 141 schools with self examining authority (which is dumb, IMO) are just as bad as the DPE's. Anymore, you can find a DPE, give him/her the check, and be done.

Quoting GoBoeing (Reply 58):

Who cares about clogging up the system.

If it gets clogged, maybe airlines will actually start offering hiring bonuses. There was a tiny little bit of that starting up in 2007 but it ended when things started to slow down with oil and the economy ending hiri

Ah, it comes out. Get your piece of the pie, and pull the ladder up behind you. Classic. Honestly, I'm not as worried about having to fight with other instructors for flight time, as I'm as worried about the general quality of flight instruction decreasing. There is a large market of people who learn to fly that have no intentions of ever flying 135/121, and they're the ones who really stand to be hurt from all of this.

-DiamondFlyer
From my cold, dead hands
 
DashTrash
Posts: 1328
Joined: Mon Aug 21, 2006 8:44 am

RE: New US Airline Pilot Minimums: 1500 Total Hours

Thu Jul 29, 2010 1:12 am

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 59):
Ah, it comes out. Get your piece of the pie, and pull the ladder up behind you. Classic.

Now that's bullshit. Many of us have been trying to raise pay and quality of life in the regionals for years with little to no success for numerous reasons. A big factor in it has been the endless supply of starry eyed, 250 hour wonder pilots who would sell one of their testicles for the right seat of an RJ. With that supply drying up, maybe current pilots (like me), can make the profession worth earning again for those who haven't yet entered it (you).

I've spent entirely too much of what little free time I got between flying the line and doing union business to not resent the hell out of that comment. My wife is even shooting dirty looks at it.
 
flymia
Posts: 7131
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2001 6:33 am

RE: New US Airline Pilot Minimums: 1500 Total Hours

Thu Jul 29, 2010 2:09 am

This is just a dumb idea and will hurt the regionals a lot. Who is going to fly their planes is what I am thinking?? If pilots in europe can fly around 737s with 500 hours why are regional airline pilots having problems in the US flying Dash-8s. First there really isnt a problem. Safety records are still great in the US, safest in the world for the amount of flghts every day. They are not looking at the real problem which is low pay and being over worked. A 3000 hour captain can make the same mistakes a 700 hour F/O does if that captain has to fly across the US every time he is called in to fly makes less money then a cashier at wal mart. They need to restrict duty hours 10 hours rest instead of 8.
800 hours seems reasonable but 1500 is just too high I am sure the airlines will put all their effort to stop something like this.
"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
 
goboeing
Posts: 2575
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2000 5:31 am

RE: New US Airline Pilot Minimums: 1500 Total Hours

Thu Jul 29, 2010 2:17 am

Quoting flymia (Reply 62):
Who is going to fly their planes is what I am thinking??

Should pilot supply effect safety in a negative manner?

Quoting flymia (Reply 62):
If pilots in europe can fly around 737s with 500 hours why are regional airline pilots having problems in the US flying Dash-8s.

Are you aware of the differences in training between the USA and Europe?

Even if they were equal, should we really care about what Europe is doing? Why don't we set our own bar? This reminds me of the phrase "if your friend jumped off a bridge would you jump too?"

Quoting flymia (Reply 62):
First there really isnt a problem. Safety records are still great in the US, safest in the world for the amount of flghts every day.

There is a problem. Safety records are good but you don't see how close the $hit is to hitting the fan on an all too often basis.

Quoting flymia (Reply 62):
They are not looking at the real problem which is low pay and being over worked.

I think we can all agree on that.

What if the 1500TT rule indirectly increased pay a few years from now? Then would you be in favor of it? After all, you do believe that the "real problem . . . is low pay and being over worked."
 
goboeing
Posts: 2575
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2000 5:31 am

RE: New US Airline Pilot Minimums: 1500 Total Hours

Thu Jul 29, 2010 4:08 am

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 64):
Perhaps this will give them time to come out with a bill that actually improves the safety of airline operations, not just appears to.

Raising the minimums from 200 to 1500 hours improves the safety of airline operations.
 
etherealsky
Posts: 211
Joined: Fri Apr 09, 2010 6:13 pm

RE: New US Airline Pilot Minimums: 1500 Total Hours

Thu Jul 29, 2010 4:35 am

Quoting GoBoeing (Reply 63):
Even if they were equal, should we really care about what Europe is doing? Why don't we set our own bar? This reminds me of the phrase "if your friend jumped off a bridge would you jump too?"

You can always learn something from others; regardless of whether they are doing things well or not-so-well. Don't forget there's a difference between watching someone jump off the metaphorical bridge and actually following them  
Quoting GoBoeing (Reply 61):
How does part 121 flying requiring a new hire to have 1500 hours total time lead to a decrease in the quality of flight instruction in the USA?

He might be referring to instructors who might become burnt out along the way and ultimately lose the passion for teaching, eventually reverting to the view of flight instruction as a time-building exercise. Most of us have probably flown with one of "those" instructors at least once, and it's not a good experience to say the least. Sure, it does happen already quite commonly, but I don't think its too far-fetched to propose that the 1500-hour rule could make the problem even more common. (Now, whether or not a person who becomes 'burnt out' as an instructor should even be an airline pilot to begin with is probably a whole other debate in itself, heh    )
"And that's why you always leave a note..."
 
DiamondFlyer
Posts: 3463
Joined: Wed Oct 29, 2008 11:50 pm

RE: New US Airline Pilot Minimums: 1500 Total Hours

Fri Jul 30, 2010 12:25 am

Quoting GoBoeing (Reply 63):

Raising the minimums from 200 to 1500 hours improves the safety of airline operations.

Just as raising those minimums again to 10,000 hours would. At some point, more than just hours has to be considered when deciding if a person can safely operate an aircraft or not. But, until the whole system is overhauled, I'm not sure how to do that. Perhaps it is time to adopt the European model of training.

Quoting etherealsky (Reply 64):
He might be referring to instructors who might become burnt out along the way and ultimately lose the passion for teaching, eventually reverting to the view of flight instruction as a time-building exercise. Most of us have probably flown with one of "those" instructors at least once, and it's not a good experience to say the least. Sure, it does happen already quite commonly, but I don't think its too far-fetched to propose that the 1500-hour rule could make the problem even more common. (Now, whether or not a person who becomes 'burnt out' as an instructor should even be an airline pilot to begin with is probably a whole other debate in itself, heh )

Exactly, hit it on the head. 3 years ago during the massive hiring boom, the number of flight instructors who just did nothing more than acquire time until they could get in the right seat of a jet was amazing. They didn't teach a thing, but rather just used students to acquire time. The best thing that could happen to them was not making an effort to teach students, as they would get time quicker that way. My big concern isn't about career oriented students, but rather those who learn to fly for personal use and entertainment. If those types end up with a 121 time builder, down the road there will be disastrous results.

-DiamondFlyer
From my cold, dead hands
 
flymia
Posts: 7131
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2001 6:33 am

RE: New US Airline Pilot Minimums: 1500 Total Hours

Fri Jul 30, 2010 4:37 am

Quoting GoBoeing (Reply 62):
What if the 1500TT rule indirectly increased pay a few years from now? Then would you be in favor of it? After all, you do believe that the "real problem . . . is low pay and being over worked."

I still think 1500 hours is too high. Also I am not sure the airlines can afford to pay their pilots much more. More but not a lot. I think 800 hours would be a good middle range. I just dont think there are enough flying jobs out there if this 1500 hour rule is put into place for pilots to get that 1500 hours besides for being a CFI. Why not increase rest time and maybe restrict commute distance first before taking drastic measures. The safety record of all commercial flying in the US is still great with the current rules. I dont see the need for such a drastic change right now.
"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
 
goboeing
Posts: 2575
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2000 5:31 am

RE: New US Airline Pilot Minimums: 1500 Total Hours

Fri Jul 30, 2010 4:59 am

Good news from today; hopefully tomorrow seals the deal:

http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2010...tion-Safety.html?_r=1&ref=aponline
 
DashTrash
Posts: 1328
Joined: Mon Aug 21, 2006 8:44 am

RE: New US Airline Pilot Minimums: 1500 Total Hours

Fri Jul 30, 2010 5:48 pm

Quoting flymia (Reply 66):
Also I am not sure the airlines can afford to pay their pilots much more.

Ticket prices may need to come up. Most of us who have been through one or more rounds of concessions feel as though we've been subsidizing low fares.

Quoting flymia (Reply 66):
Why not increase rest time and maybe restrict commute distance first before taking drastic measures.

Increasing rest requirements has been long needed. Restricting commuting could have far reaching effects since it's done on our off time. I'm not sure I need the FAA telling me what I can and can't do while I'm away from work.

Quoting flymia (Reply 66):
The safety record of all commercial flying in the US is still great with the current rules. I dont see the need for such a drastic change right now.

We've been lucky. You also don't hear about the ASAP forms, violations, and retraining that happens because of flying sick, tired, fatigued, and overall inexperience. These changes are a step in the right direction to decreasing that stuff.
 
atpcliff
Topic Author
Posts: 114
Joined: Mon Jun 11, 2001 6:24 am

RE: New US Airline Pilot Minimums: 1500 Total Hours

Fri Jul 30, 2010 7:04 pm

Hi!

House and Senate just approved...now on to Obama.
Details:
http://www.govtrack.us/congress/billtext.xpd?bill=h111-5900

If I interpreted the above correctly:
Crew Flight/Duty/Rest rules in force within one year max: Affects ALL pilots
...
This means the airlines will have to hire more pilots.

ATP/1500 hours, hours reduceable under certain conditions, and more training will be required to receive ATP in effect 3 years from Obama's signature.

cliff
LFW
TRY. It's all you have control over, and it's what God wants.
 
DashTrash
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RE: New US Airline Pilot Minimums: 1500 Total Hours

Fri Jul 30, 2010 7:47 pm

Looks like the puppy mills are still safe. Humpty Diddle / UND got their language in there to allow low time guys to continue getting hired. It will be interesting to see how the actual FAR language is written.
 
flymia
Posts: 7131
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2001 6:33 am

RE: New US Airline Pilot Minimums: 1500 Total Hours

Fri Jul 30, 2010 10:49 pm

Quoting DashTrash (Reply 70):
Looks like the puppy mills are still safe. Humpty Diddle / UND got their language in there to allow low time guys to continue getting hired. It will be interesting to see how the actual FAR language is written

Well it will be interesting to see how many hours you can get. I doubt it will be a lot lets say maybe 100 hours? Still 1400 hours is not low time at all. Again I think 1500 is too drastic 800 hours would have been a good number. But what is done is done. Saying that, 1500 hour F/O will make flying safer.

Quoting DashTrash (Reply 68):
Increasing rest requirements has been long needed. Restricting commuting could have far reaching effects since it's done on our off time. I'm not sure I need the FAA telling me what I can and can't do while I'm away from work.

I see your point. However there are plenty of jobs both private and goverment that restrict where you can live. Whats the difference? I would not be really for it, but it is something I think could have been discussed. Increasing rest requriements should have been done a long time ago. At least 10 hours of rest IMO.
"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
 
MSJYOP28Apilot
Posts: 452
Joined: Tue Jul 21, 2009 2:09 am

RE: New US Airline Pilot Minimums: 1500 Total Hours

Fri Jul 30, 2010 11:21 pm

I wonder how many hours students will be mandated to have of multi-engine and "difficult operations conditions"? How will students log and obtain "difficult operations conditions" experience as mandated by the law? The law doesnt even define what "difficult operations conditions" are. 135 operators in Florida, Texas, California and many other states could have trouble finding pilots if "difficult operations conditions" are defined as having icing conditions since they couldnt easily build that kind of time with them. Do all military pilots get time in difficult operating conditions? Depending on how that phrase is interpreted, military pilots that fly aircraft that dont get into icing very often could have to go to a 135 place before they go to an airline.

The multi-engine experience requirement could hurt many student pilots and CFIs. These days multi-time is difficult to come by through instructing unless you are at a big academy or university. People that used to buy multi engines now buy SR22s and G1000 C172.

[Edited 2010-07-30 16:23:51]
 
DiamondFlyer
Posts: 3463
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RE: New US Airline Pilot Minimums: 1500 Total Hours

Sat Jul 31, 2010 12:16 am

Quoting MSJYOP28Apilot (Reply 72):
135 operators in Florida, Texas, California and many other states could have trouble finding pilots if "difficult operations conditions" are defined as having icing conditions since they couldnt easily build that kind of time with them.

It's not going to hurt 135 operators much. Very few out there run with 2 pilots, and those that do probably have pilots who meet the new 121 requirements for the most part.

Perhaps its time to change the requirements for a CFI rating now as well. If the whole concept of the 1500 hour thing is to make better pilots, having better flight instructors sure isn't going to help.

-DiamondFlyer
From my cold, dead hands
 
thegreatRDU
Posts: 910
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RE: New US Airline Pilot Minimums: 1500 Total Hours

Sat Jul 31, 2010 12:18 am

As with anything these bureaucrats pass theirs ways around this...what are the options?

Quoting DashTrash (Reply 70):
Looks like the puppy mills are still safe. Humpty Diddle / UND got their language in there to allow low time guys to continue getting hired. It will be interesting to see how the actual FAR language is written.

Good there's hope...details please...
Our Returning Champion
 
AKviator
Posts: 88
Joined: Wed Apr 14, 2010 8:19 am

RE: New US Airline Pilot Minimums: 1500 Total Hours

Sat Jul 31, 2010 4:30 pm

Quoting DashTrash (Reply 70):
Looks like the puppy mills are still safe. Humpty Diddle / UND got their language in there to allow low time guys to continue getting hired. It will be interesting to see how the actual FAR language is written.
Quoting thegreatRDU (Reply 74):
Good there's hope...details please...

"d) Credit Toward Flight Hours- The Administrator may allow specific academic training courses, beyond those required under subsection (b)(2), to be credited toward the total flight hours required under subsection (c). The Administrator may allow such credit based on a determination by the Administrator that allowing a pilot to take specific academic training courses will enhance safety more than requiring the pilot to fully comply with the flight hours requirement"

I wonder how many places this exception extends to. Schools like Riddle/UND obviously, but if all part 141 schools qualify, this bill could have a much smaller effect than anticipated.
 
Fly2HMO
Posts: 7184
Joined: Sat Jan 24, 2004 12:14 pm

RE: New US Airline Pilot Minimums: 1500 Total Hours

Sat Jul 31, 2010 5:53 pm

Quoting AKviator (Reply 75):

"d) Credit Toward Flight Hours- The Administrator may allow specific academic training courses, beyond those required under subsection (b)(2), to be credited toward the total flight hours required under subsection (c). The Administrator may allow such credit based on a determination by the Administrator that allowing a pilot to take specific academic training courses will enhance safety more than requiring the pilot to fully comply with the flight hours requirement"

The "credit" better be somewhere around a couple of hundred hours otherwise it will be worthless.
 
AKviator
Posts: 88
Joined: Wed Apr 14, 2010 8:19 am

RE: New US Airline Pilot Minimums: 1500 Total Hours

Sat Jul 31, 2010 6:12 pm

Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 76):
The "credit" better be somewhere around a couple of hundred hours otherwise it will be worthless.

The way I understand it, the credit for graduating one of these approved programs would supplement the pilot's flight time, qualifying them for hire at a regional ASAP. So, unless i'm wrong (it's happened before!), it could be worth up to 1250 hours.
 
Fly2HMO
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Joined: Sat Jan 24, 2004 12:14 pm

RE: New US Airline Pilot Minimums: 1500 Total Hours

Sat Jul 31, 2010 6:16 pm

Quoting AKviator (Reply 77):

The way I understand it, the credit for graduating one of these approved programs would supplement the pilot's flight time, qualifying them for hire at a regional ASAP. So, unless i'm wrong (it's happened before!), it could be worth up to 1250 hours.

It seems a bit optimistic IMO but if it ends up being that much I just may stop whining.

I'm also assuming it will only account towards IF you're applying for a 135/121 job.

At any rate, I'm still not sure I'm not to sure I want to become another slave for a regional regardless.
 
flymia
Posts: 7131
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2001 6:33 am

RE: New US Airline Pilot Minimums: 1500 Total Hours

Sun Aug 01, 2010 1:15 am

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 73):
Perhaps its time to change the requirements for a CFI rating now as well. If the whole concept of the 1500 hour thing is to make better pilots, having better flight instructors sure isn't going to help.

If they made that the case then the airlines would have no one to hire but military pilots. If you raised CFI restrictions how are people going to gain these hours? Paying $80 an hour.

Quoting AKviator (Reply 77):
So, unless i'm wrong (it's happened before!), it could be worth up to 1250 hours.

I think thats a bit high. But who knows.
"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
 
bjorn14
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RE: New US Airline Pilot Minimums: 1500 Total Hours

Fri Aug 06, 2010 12:20 pm

How will this affect Part 135 ops?
"I want to know the voice of God the rest is just details" --A. Einstein
 
DiamondFlyer
Posts: 3463
Joined: Wed Oct 29, 2008 11:50 pm

RE: New US Airline Pilot Minimums: 1500 Total Hours

Fri Aug 06, 2010 4:14 pm

Quoting flymia (Reply 79):
If they made that the case then the airlines would have no one to hire but military pilots. If you raised CFI restrictions how are people going to gain these hours? Paying $80 an hour.

So, the airline passengers are safe, but who cares what happens when we put tons of instructors out there who don't really want to teach. I don't really care what happens with part 121. Someday would I like to fly there, perhaps. I'd rather see quality training and education for those people who will only ever operate part 91.

-DiamondFlyer
From my cold, dead hands
 
DashTrash
Posts: 1328
Joined: Mon Aug 21, 2006 8:44 am

RE: New US Airline Pilot Minimums: 1500 Total Hours

Fri Aug 06, 2010 5:03 pm

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 81):

So, the airline passengers are safe, but who cares what happens when we put tons of instructors out there who don't really want to teach. I don't really care what happens with part 121.

I don't see much changing in that department. I know of several guys who enjoy teaching, but none who want to make a career out of it. Do you know of any guys out there who specifically went to school to become a CFI. Most of the instructors I know are doing it to build time for the airlines, or do it after their real job for enjoyment.
 
flymia
Posts: 7131
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2001 6:33 am

RE: New US Airline Pilot Minimums: 1500 Total Hours

Fri Aug 06, 2010 10:57 pm

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 81):
So, the airline passengers are safe, but who cares what happens when we put tons of instructors out there who don't really want to teach. I don't really care what happens with part 121. Someday would I like to fly there, perhaps. I'd rather see quality training and education for those people who will only ever operate part 91.

Who wants to really teach? Obviously everyone who is a CFI loves aviation so most people love giving knownledge about something they love as we do on these fourms. But not very few CFI's who are young at least are doing it as a career. Not much pay being a CFI. Most are building time for the airlines.
"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
 
DiamondFlyer
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Joined: Wed Oct 29, 2008 11:50 pm

RE: New US Airline Pilot Minimums: 1500 Total Hours

Sat Aug 07, 2010 12:50 am

Quoting flymia (Reply 83):
Who wants to really teach? Obviously everyone who is a CFI loves aviation so most people love giving knownledge about something they love as we do on these fourms. But not very few CFI's who are young at least are doing it as a career. Not much pay being a CFI. Most are building time for the airlines.

My point exactly. Let them build it some other way, and let those who really want to teach do so. If it raises costs, so be it. Clearly the 1500 hour minimum's are going to raise costs (at least temporarily) for the carriers. So, you want to raise costs in one place, but then not in another? And honestly, having people who want to actually teach new pilots would do more for safety than this 1500 hour rule does for safety. You can't build a safety system from the middle up. Start from the beginning.

-DiamondFlyer
From my cold, dead hands
 
n6238p
Posts: 439
Joined: Fri Jan 27, 2006 5:35 am

RE: New US Airline Pilot Minimums: 1500 Total Hours

Sat Aug 07, 2010 3:15 am

I'll be honest I'm 50/50 how I feel about this bill. I'm one of these fresh out of college CFI's looking for employment to build time. However I get my time is up to me but in all honestly, if I'm going to sign someone else's logbook, I'm going to make sure that that pilot got the best training they can get. I enjoy being a CFI but there are a few days where I wake up and look at weather hoping to God the ceilings are too low to have to take a student up in a 152 to teach turns around a point.

I was having breakfast with the chief pilot of a corporate flight department a few weeks ago and he told me although there are pilots who may be competent at a low time to successfully fly from point A to point B, he found that when something abnormal happens, this is where the experience comes into play. Low time pilots haven't been exposed to a wide range of different aircraft and conditions. He thinks that having to fly a couple hundred hours as a CFI and flying dead legs right seat of 135 twins and ferrying teaches a pilot to be versatile in their skill set. Although this bill is going to make things harder for us low time guys to get to the airlines, it'll give us more time to learn from the right seat of smaller planes on how to deal with everything that'll be thrown at us in any situation.

What my major concern is future pilots especially on the university level that'll be scared away causing more and more flight schools to have to close shop. Its already hitting 141 schools and it's going to snowball from here. Adding new pilots isn't the worry, its the CFI already working towards the 121 world that may be out of a job soon.
To actively root against anybody is just low, and I hope karma comes back at you with a vengeance
 
atpcliff
Topic Author
Posts: 114
Joined: Mon Jun 11, 2001 6:24 am

RE: New US Airline Pilot Minimums: 1500 Total Hours

Fri Aug 13, 2010 3:41 am

Hi!

Currently, the mins for the FAA Commercial license are 250 hrs, reducable to about 188 for the Part 141 flight schools.

With Congress establishing a 1500 hour requirement for the ATP, do you realistically think they would let the FAA reduce it to 250 hours? Do you think the FAA would even ASK to reduce it to 250 hours. If the FAA reduces it, to say, even 1000 hours, do you think Congress will allow that?

The key here is the requirement is NOT 1500 hours. You could have 3000 hours and not qualify for a Part 121 job...you will need an Airline Transport Pilot's license.
TRY. It's all you have control over, and it's what God wants.
 
DiamondFlyer
Posts: 3463
Joined: Wed Oct 29, 2008 11:50 pm

RE: New US Airline Pilot Minimums: 1500 Total Hours

Fri Aug 13, 2010 5:15 am

Quoting atpcliff (Reply 86):
Currently, the mins for the FAA Commercial license are 250 hrs, reducable to about 188 for the Part 141 flight schools.

Of which a large portion can be FTD time. I've heard of people who got it at around 145-150 hours of flight time, plus the associated FTD time to get them over 190 or so.

Quoting atpcliff (Reply 86):
With Congress establishing a 1500 hour requirement for the ATP, do you realistically think they would let the FAA reduce it to 250 hours? Do you think the FAA would even ASK to reduce it to 250 hours. If the FAA reduces it, to say, even 1000 hours, do you think Congress will allow that?

If it's in the legislation as passed, why would Congress change their mind again? Could they do it, yes, potentially. Will it happen that they go back and change this legislation and make it more restrictive, doubtful.

Quoting atpcliff (Reply 86):
The key here is the requirement is NOT 1500 hours. You could have 3000 hours and not qualify for a Part 121 job...you will need an Airline Transport Pilot's license.

Airline Transport Pilot certificate. It's not a license.

-DiamondFlyer
From my cold, dead hands
 
DashTrash
Posts: 1328
Joined: Mon Aug 21, 2006 8:44 am

RE: New US Airline Pilot Minimums: 1500 Total Hours

Fri Aug 13, 2010 3:29 pm

Seems like you're forgetting who a flight instructor works for.

If I am paying someone to teach me to fly, they work for me. If they aren't doing the job, I fire their ass. I've had two instructors that were particularly hard on me. One was a retired Air Force pilot who gave me a well deserved hard time. I stayed with him and ended up getting my logbook endorsed by him to go take my private checkride. The other was a college instructor who didn't have much in the way of skills or personality. I fired his ass.

My point is that an instructor giving substandard instruction will get weeded out by his customers. If he doesn't it's the student's failure, not the instructors. "Ma and Pa" flight school isn't going to tolerate a substandard instructor either. Any chief instructor at a collegiate program won't tolerate it either.

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