c5load
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Are 757/767 Pilots Separated Between Int'l & Dom?

Tue Sep 07, 2010 9:05 pm

I know 777 pilots don't really get a choice but to fly mainly international routes, but what about the 757 or 767 pilots? Do the pilots that fly the 757 from ATL-JFK the same pilots that could take the 757 across the pond as well? Are the 763 domestic pilots on their own schedule from the 763ER or 764 pilots? I guess my main point is when you fly these airplanes, do pilots get a choice to stay primarily domestic or primarily international?
"But this airplane has 4 engines, it's an entirely different kind of flying! Altogether"
 
PGNCS
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RE: Are 757/767 Pilots Separated Between Int'l & Dom?

Tue Sep 07, 2010 9:49 pm

It depends entirely on the individual airline and the pilot's seniority.
 
roseflyer
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RE: Are 757/767 Pilots Separated Between Int'l & Dom?

Tue Sep 07, 2010 11:31 pm

Quoting c5load (Thread starter):
I guess my main point is when you fly these airplanes, do pilots get a choice to stay primarily domestic or primarily international?

Pilots get to bid on what they want. Some choose domestic flying and prefer it while others prefer international. It's up to seniority to decide who gets what. I don't know of any airlines that restrict pilots to domestic only operations if their fleet operates internationally as well.
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YYZRWY23
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RE: Are 757/767 Pilots Separated Between Int'l & Dom?

Tue Sep 07, 2010 11:51 pm

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 2):

This is exactly it. Pilots bid what they want, and it can be a mix of intl and domestic, as long as they don't exceed maximum hours for the month (and for maintain proper rest times as well).

From what I have gathered talking to pilots of wide-bodies on domestic routes (AC YYZ-YVR 763, AA MIA-BOS 777), some senior guys (and gals) like to do one or two domestic turns in a day, and get to maintain a regular 9-5 type schedule. For example, the captain of my MIA-BOS flight was just turning back to MIA and that was his flying day. He started at 6:00am (flight left at 7:30am), and was home in the afternoon.

Quoting c5load (Thread starter):
Are the 763 domestic pilots on their own schedule from the 763ER or 764 pilots?

Now i know that this would only be an issue with CO and DL, but from what I recall, the 764 has a 777 (or 777-style) flight deck, so would it not be flown by 777 pilots? The 757/767 share a lot of commonality and with some ground school pilots can be qualified on both, but I don't think that is the case for the 767/777 (but I could be wrong).

YYZRWY23
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dispatchguy
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RE: Are 757/767 Pilots Separated Between Int'l & Dom?

Wed Sep 08, 2010 12:24 am

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 2):
I don't know of any airlines that restrict pilots to domestic only operations if their fleet operates internationally as well.

Most carriers who have this type of operation also require their pilot to hold both an international qualification as well as a theater qualification, and depending on what domicile a given pilot is based at will control what and where he flies.

For example, when I was a UA Pilot Scheduler back in the late 90s, the ORD B767 domicile was a domestic only domicile. Even though we had many flights a day on the B767 going international from ORD, I couldnt pull from the ORD domicile because they werent internationally qualified (or if they were, they werent usually theater current). So, if I had a sick call on say an ORD-CDG on the B767, I would need a crewmember from either the JFK, MIA, or IAD domiciles (at least in the Eastern US), as they were both international AND theater qualified.
Nobody screws you better than an airline job!
 
PGNCS
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RE: Are 757/767 Pilots Separated Between Int'l & Dom?

Wed Sep 08, 2010 12:36 am

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 2):
I don't know of any airlines that restrict pilots to domestic only operations if their fleet operates internationally as well.

I do. Most airlines don't, but there are some airlines that have separate domestic and international categories on various aircraft including the 767.

Quoting YYZRWY23 (Reply 3):
This is exactly it. Pilots bid what they want, and it can be a mix of intl and domestic, as long as they don't exceed maximum hours for the month (and for maintain proper rest times as well).

Again, it depends on the airline. There are airlines with separate domestic and international categories even for the same aircraft.

Quoting YYZRWY23 (Reply 3):
Quoting c5load (Thread starter):
Are the 763 domestic pilots on their own schedule from the 763ER or 764 pilots?

Now i know that this would only be an issue with CO and DL, but from what I recall, the 764 has a 777 (or 777-style) flight deck, so would it not be flown by 777 pilots? The 757/767 share a lot of commonality and with some ground school pilots can be qualified on both, but I don't think that is the case for the 767/777 (but I could be wrong).

The 764 is covered by the 767 type rating despite it's newer displays. The 764 can be operated with crews that also fly the 757/767 "classic" although differences training is required; each airline decides for itself whether or not to have the 764 flown by a dedicated pilot group or have it lumped in with the rest of the 757/767 fleet, and there are advantages and disadvantages to each method.
 
413X3
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RE: Are 757/767 Pilots Separated Between Int'l & Dom?

Thu Sep 09, 2010 2:38 am

Do any pilots fly a 764 and 777 line since their avionics are similar?
 
Accidentally
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RE: Are 757/767 Pilots Separated Between Int'l & Dom?

Thu Sep 09, 2010 3:02 am

My buddy is a NY based 757/767 CA at AA, and by choice is strictly domestic. He therefore is not certified or trained for Intl ops, and isnt even sent the Jeppesen charts/revisions for Intl destinations.
Indianapolis, IN
 
Transpac787
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RE: Are 757/767 Pilots Separated Between Int'l & Dom?

Thu Sep 09, 2010 12:21 pm

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 2):
I don't know of any airlines that restrict pilots to domestic only operations if their fleet operates internationally as well.

Both AA and DL have separate bids for domestic and international on the 757/767 fleet.
 
AT
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RE: Are 757/767 Pilots Separated Between Int'l & Dom?

Thu Sep 09, 2010 2:29 pm

Quoting Accidentally (Reply 7):
My buddy is a NY based 757/767 CA at AA, and by choice is strictly domestic. He therefore is not certified or trained for Intl ops, and isnt even sent the Jeppesen charts/revisions for Intl destinations.

What is the difference in training required for domestic versus international?
Is it just ETOPS?
 
Transpac787
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RE: Are 757/767 Pilots Separated Between Int'l & Dom?

Thu Sep 09, 2010 10:04 pm

Quoting AT (Reply 9):
What is the difference in training required for domestic versus international?
Is it just ETOPS?

DL calls it "theater qual" or something like that. Regional differences in ATC, airport procedures, all sorts of stuff. Just a few examples... China uses millibars and hectopascals, Russia uses.... I forget what it's called, but when you land your altimeter should read 0 instead of whatever the altitude is in MSL. Lots of differences from just flying within the US that it seems AA and DL don't want to train 100% of their crews on, so they just separate domestic and internationally qualified crews.

Also, to be clear, at DL the internationally-qualified 757/767 drivers can still bid domestic trips. It's not like they are relegated to just transoceanic flights.
 
LONGisland89
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RE: Are 757/767 Pilots Separated Between Int'l & Dom?

Fri Sep 10, 2010 3:50 am

One of my friends is a FO with Delta on 757/767 (former 764). He is internationally qualified, however he does int'l trips as well as domestic runs. As for the 764, DL trains their pilots to that specific aircraft.
 
Max Q
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RE: Are 757/767 Pilots Separated Between Int'l & Dom?

Sat Sep 11, 2010 5:10 am

At Continental all 757 and 767 Pilots are required to be current and qualified on B752, B752, B762 and B764.


Of course all subtypes bar the 764 share an almost identical cockpit and this is covered by the 757 / 767 basic type rating.


The -400 qualification requires a differences course and
simulator check.



Similarly all 757 / 767 Pilots are required to be qualified in all domestic and international operations.



So you can go anywhere on any of the four different subtypes.



Personally I think thats as good as it gets., the variety is tremendous.




I hope this arrangement continues after the merger.
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.


GGg
 
PGNCS
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RE: Are 757/767 Pilots Separated Between Int'l & Dom?

Sat Sep 11, 2010 1:51 pm

Quoting Max Q (Reply 12):
Personally I think thats as good as it gets., the variety is tremendous.

That's fine, and that's your opinion: many people don't like it either. If you only want to fly domestic, there's no reason for you to want to endure the training for all the International stuff. The flexibility certainly benefits the airline, but it can also adversely impact training costs as well.
 
Max Q
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RE: Are 757/767 Pilots Separated Between Int'l & Dom?

Sat Sep 11, 2010 7:56 pm

Quoting PGNCS (Reply 13):

That's fine, and that's your opinion: many people don't like it either. If you only want to fly domestic, there's no reason for you to want to endure the training for all the International stuff. The flexibility certainly benefits the airline, but it can also adversely impact training costs as well.

Well, if you don't like it you don't have to bid it !



As far as increased training costs these are far outweighed by the benefit of having an 'all qualified' Pilot group.


This means lees cost actually as you need less Pilots.
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.


GGg
 
A342
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RE: Are 757/767 Pilots Separated Between Int'l & Dom?

Sat Sep 11, 2010 8:33 pm

Quoting PGNCS (Reply 13):
the training for all the International stuff

Maybe you could elaborate on this point a bit more? What kind of additional training is required for (US) pilots to fly international routes?

Maybe proper ICAO phraseology?   
Exceptions confirm the rule.
 
Viscount724
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RE: Are 757/767 Pilots Separated Between Int'l & Dom?

Sat Sep 11, 2010 10:56 pm

Quoting A342 (Reply 15):
Quoting PGNCS (Reply 13):
the training for all the International stuff

Maybe you could elaborate on this point a bit more? What kind of additional training is required for (US) pilots to fly international routes?

Did you see Reply 10? Another example would be the North Atlantic Track navigation procedures for flights crossing the North Atlantic. A few countries (Russia and China mainly) also use altitudes in meters instead of feet..
 
flyinTLow
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RE: Are 757/767 Pilots Separated Between Int'l & Dom?

Sat Sep 11, 2010 11:13 pm

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 16):
A few countries (Russia and China mainly) also use altitudes in meters instead of feet..

Anyone able to fly an aircraft of that size should be able to understand QNH, QFE, Standard and all consequences this has on flying within minutes. I hope this is not the reason.

NATS on the other hand, reclearance, and all the other legal stuff that comes with ETOPs regulations, I can understand to some extent...
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Aaron747
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RE: Are 757/767 Pilots Separated Between Int'l & Dom?

Sat Sep 11, 2010 11:25 pm

Quoting Max Q (Reply 14):
Well, if you don't like it you don't have to bid it !

Just out of curiosity, does your pedestal have a 'lower' function? A modicum of respect for the opinions of others is all most of us ask for.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
PGNCS
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RE: Are 757/767 Pilots Separated Between Int'l & Dom?

Sun Sep 12, 2010 12:12 am

Quoting Max Q (Reply 14):
Quoting PGNCS (Reply 13):

That's fine, and that's your opinion: many people don't like it either. If you only want to fly domestic, there's no reason for you to want to endure the training for all the International stuff. The flexibility certainly benefits the airline, but it can also adversely impact training costs as well.

Well, if you don't like it you don't have to bid it !



As far as increased training costs these are far outweighed by the benefit of having an 'all qualified' Pilot group.


This means lees cost actually as you need less Pilots.

But I have to still go to more school, more often, covering more things that are extraneous to me that I won't use, but will have to study every time I go to recurrent if I am in an International category flying exclusively domestic. I didn't say it was right or wrong. You said you liked it and hoped it stayed the way it was at CO. I made clear that I didn't like it, and in fact that's one reason I left an airplane that was getting more and more international flying in the bid lines. It's not a matter of "just don't bid it" as you well know. You are still accountable for the information, can (and will) be rerouted onto trips to places you don't want to go, and may not be senior enough to hold domestic if enough International migrates into the bid lines.

You say that "As far as increased training costs these are far outweighed by the benefit of having an 'all qualified' Pilot group," and that is likely the norm, and apparently is at CO. That is NOT uniformly true as some carriers have different training and recurrent schedules, requirements, and intervals for domestic and International pilots, and the differences are NOT insignificant. In a company with a very large fleet of aircraft that does both domestic and International flying it can be a net advantage to split the categories with domestic pilots going to recurrent less frequently, getting a shorter training footprint in initial and recurrent due to the lack of international-specific stuff in the syllabus (which equates to about one extra sim period a year in recurrent at some operators,) it requires a MUCH shorter initial school and training period as normally two transoceanic IOE trips are needed to get all initial requirements done; at many carriers one of the pilots who was originally scheduled on the trip used for IOE is relieved of duty and paid, which is a huge cost to incur if the pilot being trained is only going to fly domestic. In short, I grasp what you want at CO. That doesn't make it universally the correct answer for every fleet at every airline.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 18):
Quoting Max Q (Reply 14):
Well, if you don't like it you don't have to bid it !

Just out of curiosity, does your pedestal have a 'lower' function? A modicum of respect for the opinions of others is all most of us ask for.

   I wasn't going to say it, but thank you Aaron.
 
Max Q
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RE: Are 757/767 Pilots Separated Between Int'l & Dom?

Sun Sep 12, 2010 3:59 am

No pedestal here ladies and gents and I regret if that was the perception.


To each his own PGNCS.



I cant really agree with you that having separate categories of Pilots for the same equipment saves money but I understand where you are coming from.
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.


GGg
 
pilotpip
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RE: Are 757/767 Pilots Separated Between Int'l & Dom?

Sun Sep 12, 2010 4:07 am

Quoting 413X3 (Reply 6):
Do any pilots fly a 764 and 777 line since their avionics are similar?

No, they are different type ratings. I believe the 767-400 is also a different type rating from the 757/767 type.
DMI
 
Max Q
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RE: Are 757/767 Pilots Separated Between Int'l & Dom?

Sun Sep 12, 2010 6:19 am

Quoting pilotpip (Reply 21):

No, they are different type ratings. I believe the 767-400 is also a different type rating from the 757/767 type.

The 764 is included under the same type rating as the basic 757 / 767.



A differences course is all that is required for a 757 /767 rated Pilot to fly it.



There are, however some Airlines (Delta) that choose to separate it with Pilots that fly it exclusively.



This is an Airlines choice, not Boeing's or the FAA's.
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.


GGg
 
JRadier
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RE: Are 757/767 Pilots Separated Between Int'l & Dom?

Sun Sep 12, 2010 9:04 am

Quoting Max Q (Reply 20):

I cant really agree with you that having separate categories of Pilots for the same equipment saves money but I understand where you are coming from.

This discussion has 2 sides as it has both fixed costs (training) and variable costs (flexibility in the operation). If you have an operation which is very diverse (both international and domestic flying from the same bases) the variable costs will outweigh the flexible costs. However, if your operation is not as diverse (for example intl. flying from A & B, domestic from C & D) it makes very little sense to incur the high fixed costs for the pilots flying from C&D as they will never use it. It all depends how you structure the operation.

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