nycbjr
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FAA Approves STC Boosting 757 Range

Wed Oct 06, 2010 2:19 pm

From flightglobal.. I wonder how much cargo volume is lost, and if this would be of any interest to the airlines, or just private operators/military. Cool none the less!

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...-from-pats-boosting-757-range.html
 
Gingersnap
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RE: FAA Approves STC Boosting 757 Range

Wed Oct 06, 2010 8:33 pm

Could beneficial to some airlines (perhaps the charters more than anything, as they don't rely on cargo revenue as much).

Do any US 757 trans-atlantic operators need this extra range? Especially when your trading off cargo space.

Interesting to see which airlines (if any) take up this option. FedEx/DHL/UPS could perhaps find some use of these auxilliary tanks however.
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prebennorholm
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RE: FAA Approves STC Boosting 757 Range

Wed Oct 06, 2010 9:19 pm

The article doesn't provide much numbers except range.

If my brain isn't screwed, then that extra fuel for 5,000nm range plus tank installation will come at a weight penalty not all that dissimilar to a 200 pax payload. So I can definitely not see it used by charter operators.

I could rather see it on Air Force C-32A VIP planes, but maybe they already have it, and BTW they don't need FAA certification.

Maybe half of those eight extra tanks on an all premium class bird configured for 100 pax or less - boosting range to 4,500nm - could open some Atlantic routes which are not possible with today's 757s. Washington DC - Berlin, Chicago - Munich, or such.
Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs
 
KELPkid
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RE: FAA Approves STC Boosting 757 Range

Wed Oct 06, 2010 10:44 pm

Quoting prebennorholm (Reply 2):
I could rather see it on Air Force C-32A VIP planes, but maybe they already have it, and BTW they don't need FAA certification.

Maybe the maker of that mod just went out and applied for an STC so that the mod could be installed in civil aircraft. Makes sense   Just have to prove that you did it up to FAA standards...
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m11stephen
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RE: FAA Approves STC Boosting 757 Range

Wed Oct 06, 2010 11:35 pm

Charter and private owners of the 757 may implement this since they don't tend to carry much if any cargo. Airlines, however, tend to make a lot of money off of cargo.
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kimberlyRJ
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RE: FAA Approves STC Boosting 757 Range

Thu Oct 07, 2010 12:28 am

I wonder if BA could put this technology to use on their B752’s – maybe start flying them to some of the destinations which were dropped due to low loads...

I don’t know anything about aircraft weights but charter operators have say 230 pax onboard plus their baggage but very little cargo – could this give them the opportunity to use the B752 on long haul flights from say UK to MCO? Monarch & Air Europe flew the B752 over the pond to MCO in the late 80’s but the aircraft stopped in Bangor – if the B752 could fly none stop to Florida and the Caribbean I could see some airlines being attracted to the extra fuel tank option (as long as all the baggage can be loaded every time). 20kg (max weight of a bag on normal charter flights) x 230 (pax) = 4600kg (sounds a lot to me)...

Could this make the B752 even more popular?

Kimberly

Ps. Can you tell I love the good old 757  
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: FAA Approves STC Boosting 757 Range

Thu Oct 07, 2010 11:42 am

Only C-32 A operators or someone using a private B752 would be interested in this.
regds
MEL.
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Gingersnap
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RE: FAA Approves STC Boosting 757 Range

Thu Oct 07, 2010 1:38 pm

Quoting prebennorholm (Reply 2):
If my brain isn't screwed, then that extra fuel for 5,000nm range plus tank installation will come at a weight penalty not all that dissimilar to a 200 pax payload. So I can definitely not see it used by charter operators.

I get that point. However, charters aren't very big haulers of cargo on their more leisure orientated routes.

A 5,000nm route for example, would allow a 757 to do MAN-MCO with almost 800nm to spare (direct routing at least). It will allow charters to be more versitile their route management and change up aircraft in relation to pax numbers.
However, on shorter routes I can see the point your making where it could becoming a hinderance rather than an advantage to have the extra tanks onboard. As I understand it, it wouldn't make business sense for a lot of charters to have a seperate 'long-haul' 757 fleet.
Some could use it however one would think.

Private owners of 757 aircraft I agree could see the most benefit (if they require it of course).
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packcheer
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RE: FAA Approves STC Boosting 757 Range

Thu Oct 07, 2010 9:17 pm

Quoting prebennorholm (Reply 2):
Maybe half of those eight extra tanks on an all premium class bird configured for 100 pax or less - boosting range to 4,500nm - could open some Atlantic routes which are not possible with today's 757s. Washington DC - Berlin, Chicago - Munich, or such

If there was enough demand on a 4500 mile route to fill 100 premium seats, I suspect an airline would rather put a 777, or 767, or A332, or A333, or A340 on the route.... There are alot of planes that could fill that role.

That being said, an all premium 757 airline would be an interesting idea..
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Viscount724
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RE: FAA Approves STC Boosting 757 Range

Thu Oct 07, 2010 11:13 pm

Quoting kimberlyrj (Reply 5):
I wonder if BA could put this technology to use on their B752’s – maybe start flying them to some of the destinations which were dropped due to low loads...

If I recall earlier BA press releases correctly, their remaining 752s (except the 4 operating for Open Skies) have been sold for cargo conversion.
 
prebennorholm
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RE: FAA Approves STC Boosting 757 Range

Fri Oct 08, 2010 12:15 am

Quoting gingersnap (Reply 7):
However, charters aren't very big haulers of cargo on their more leisure orientated routes.

Sorry gingersnap, in this respect we can totally forget about cargo.

A typically charter configured 757-200 with 230 seats cannot even fill the factory fitted fuel tanks without exceeding MTOW of the heaviest 752 variant 255,000 lbs. (It comes in 220, 240 and 255k lbs variants, but we are talking 255 only here because it's the only one having a 4100nm range with winglets).

A "charter 752" will never reach the full 4100nm range with maximum fuel uplift (rather something like 3800nm). 4100nm can only be done with a pax-only plane with around 200 pax and no cargo.

If we imagine a "charter 752" fitted with those extra tanks, then the range will shrink even further because the weight of the extra tank installation will have to be subtracted from the maximum fuel uplift.

When we talk about 752 and 5000nm range, then we are in any case talking about a plane with way below 150 pax and no cargo. We cannot calculate it more precisely without knowing the weight of the extra tank installation. But the extra fuel will have to be some 15,000 lbs, give or take a few thousand.

Very likely the C-32A already has those extra tanks.

Speculation: Maybe this FAA approval was made in order to make the two white elephant C-32B planes a little more "legal"? If you ask, then they are probably neither military, nor civil planes, so better don't ask.  

[Edited 2010-10-07 17:18:10]
Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs
 
thegeek
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RE: FAA Approves STC Boosting 757 Range

Fri Oct 08, 2010 6:19 am

Perhaps a paper re-rate of the MTOW? What restricts it to below the 272klb (123t) of the 753? Moment arm is the only thing I can think of which could be a problem. But then, if it were possible to do so, why did it take so long?

Quoting prebennorholm (Reply 10):
Speculation: Maybe this FAA approval was made in order to make the two white elephant C-32B planes a little more "legal"?

You mean they want to sell them to an airline? A possibility.
 
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747classic
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RE: FAA Approves STC Boosting 757 Range

Fri Oct 08, 2010 10:51 am

Re-rating of the MTOW (if possible, without major re-certification and/or modifications) is not the only re-rating that is needed to obtain a similar payload as before the additional fuel tank STC.
The MZFW has to be increased also, because the extra fuel and tank weights (located in the lower cargo compartments) are counted "structural and load-sheet wise" as extra cargo and not fuel. Increasing the MZFW will need additional strengthening of parts of the fuselage and/or wing roots.

The only goal achieved of this STC is increasing fuel quantity to increase the range, but at that range the payload will be severely limited by MTOW or even more by MZFW. For VIP flights ok, but not for charters.
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KELPkid
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RE: FAA Approves STC Boosting 757 Range

Fri Oct 08, 2010 2:44 pm

Quoting prebennorholm (Reply 10):

Speculation: Maybe this FAA approval was made in order to make the two white elephant C-32B planes a little more "legal"? If you ask, then they are probably neither military, nor civil planes, so better don't ask.

So far as I can tell, there are actually three C-32B's, only one less than the number of VC-32A's.
Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
 
prebennorholm
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RE: FAA Approves STC Boosting 757 Range

Fri Oct 08, 2010 7:02 pm

Quoting thegeek (Reply 11):
Quoting prebennorholm (Reply 10):
Speculation: Maybe this FAA approval was made in order to make the two white elephant C-32B planes a little more "legal"?

You mean they want to sell them to an airline? A possibility.

No, I never thought about the possibility of selling them. But since they are without military markings, then they may sometimes be supposed to be civil, and then they should in most respects be FAA compliant.

I think they will be hard to sell without extensive modifications. For instance rumors tell that they are equipped for arial refueling. But there may be many more modifications. We don't know, and we are not supposed to know.
Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs
 
kimberlyRJ
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RE: FAA Approves STC Boosting 757 Range

Fri Oct 08, 2010 7:22 pm

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 9):
If I recall earlier BA press releases correctly, their remaining 752s (except the 4 operating for Open Skies) have been sold for cargo conversion

As you said apart from four.

Can anyone confirm what the ZFW weight is for the B752ER RR?

Doing my sums and I am blonde GRR

Kimberly
 
prebennorholm
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RE: FAA Approves STC Boosting 757 Range

Fri Oct 08, 2010 8:26 pm

Quoting kimberlyrj (Reply 15):
Can anyone confirm what the ZFW weight is for the B752ER RR?

There is no such thing as a B752ER. Boeing many years ago proposed a 757-200ER, but it was never launched.

The 752 comes in three weight classes, MTOW = 220, 240 or 255k lbs. Sometimes the heavier (or the heaviest) weights are unofficially refered to as "ER" as those planes clearly have a supperior payload/range capability.

There are also three different RR engines being used on 752 (in addition to a selection of PW engines), the RB-211-535C, -535E4 and -535E4B, with quite substantial performance differences (although I'm not sure many - if any - civil 752s use the E4B variant).

You can easily google the Boeing datasheets. They give you all the number for all existing variants.
Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs
 
kimberlyRJ
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RE: FAA Approves STC Boosting 757 Range

Fri Oct 08, 2010 9:59 pm

Quoting prebennorholm (Reply 16):
The 752 comes in three weight classes, MTOW = 220, 240 or 255k lbs. Sometimes the heavier (or the heaviest) weights are unofficially refered to as "ER" as those planes clearly have a supperior payload/range capability.

There are also three different RR engines being used on 752 (in addition to a selection of PW engines), the RB-211-535C, -535E4 and -535E4B, with quite substantial performance differences (although I'm not sure many - if any - civil 752s use the E4B variant).

You can easily google the Boeing datasheets. They give you all the number for all existing variants.

I need to hunt me down a B752 pilot - do we know any on here? They are coming hard to come by as the type is being retired over the years  

Kimberly
 
prebennorholm
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RE: FAA Approves STC Boosting 757 Range

Fri Oct 08, 2010 11:02 pm

Quoting kimberlyrj (Reply 17):
They are coming hard to come by as the type is being retired over the years

WHAT!!! There has probably never been more 757 pilots than today. And besides it shares type rating with the 767 which is still being built.

It is only BA who is offloading some not so young birds to new operators - some absolutely "non-ER" versions with the least powerful engines, RB-211-535C. Wonderful birds - I flew on them many times, but hardly ever on much longer than 500nm sectors.

[Edited 2010-10-08 16:04:04]
Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs
 
thegeek
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RE: FAA Approves STC Boosting 757 Range

Sat Oct 09, 2010 7:55 am

Quoting 747classic (Reply 12):
Re-rating of the MTOW (if possible, without major re-certification and/or modifications) is not the only re-rating that is needed to obtain a similar payload as before the additional fuel tank STC.

I always wondered why Boeing never marketed a 752 with a 753 MTOW/MZFW and increased fuel tankage. Not that I'd want to spend 10 hours on a 757 though.
 
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747classic
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RE: FAA Approves STC Boosting 757 Range

Sat Oct 09, 2010 9:04 am

Quoting kimberlyrj (Reply 15):
Can anyone confirm what the ZFW weight is for the B752ER RR?

752 ( RB211-535C powered ) :
MTOW 240.000 lbs (108.900 kgs) , MZFW 184.000 lbs (83.450 kgs), max fuel 11.276 USG (42.680 liter)

752 ( RB211-535E4, -535E4B and PW 2037, 2040 powered) :
MTOW 255.000 lbs (115.600 kgs) , MZFW 188.000 lbs (85.300 kgs), max fuel 11.276 USG (42.680 liter)

752PF (PW 2037,2040 powered)*
MTOW 255.000 lbs (115.600 kgs) , MZFW 200.000 lbs (90.700 kgs), max fuel 11.276 USG (42.680 liter)

753 ( RB211-535E4, -535E4B and PW 2037, 2040 powered) :
MTOW 270.000 lbs (122.500 kgs) , MZFW 210.000 lbs (95.250 kgs), max fuel 11.490 USG (43.490 liter)

Above mentioned weights are the max. allowable operating weights, airlines may choose lower operating weights.

*Only PW powered 752PF are new builts.

General remarks :
By several Supplemental Type Certificates many 752 have been modified as freighters with higher certified MZFW as the original produced passenger aircraft. The combination winglet STC and freighter STC has NOT been certified yet.
Operating a twin over the ocean, you're always one engine failure from a total emergency.
 
PC12Fan
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RE: FAA Approves STC Boosting 757 Range

Sun Oct 10, 2010 9:12 pm

Quoting prebennorholm (Reply 2):
I could rather see it on Air Force C-32A VIP planes, but maybe they already have it, and BTW they don't need FAA certification.

I think they already do as I remember seeing somewhere that the C-32's max range is in the 5000nm area.
Just when I think you've said the stupidest thing ever, you keep talkin'!
 
mrskyguy
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RE: FAA Approves STC Boosting 757 Range

Mon Oct 11, 2010 12:26 am

Quoting PC12Fan (Reply 21):
I think they already do as I remember seeing somewhere that the C-32's max range is in the 5000nm area.

Some of that is surely gained by not having a standard PAX and cargo load aboard for its missions, but not all..

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