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Northwest727
Posts: 379
Joined: Sat Jul 30, 2005 10:38 am

RE: Efficiency Of A330 Vs. DC-10

Sun Dec 19, 2010 4:22 pm

Quoting 411A (Reply 49):
Don't think FedEx (etc) would agree, as it makes a dandy freighter.

I understand, but that was not MCDD's intent with the MD-11. The MD-11 needed lots of improvements in order to fulfill MCDD's promises to their customers.
 
411A
Posts: 1788
Joined: Mon Nov 12, 2001 10:34 am

RE: Efficiency Of A330 Vs. DC-10

Mon Dec 20, 2010 2:21 am

Quoting Northwest727 (Reply 50):
I understand, but that was not MCDD's intent with the MD-11. The MD-11 needed lots of improvements in order to fulfill MCDD's promises to their customers.

So will, I expect...the 787.
For example, electrical junction boxes that don't burst into flames every once in awhile.

Also, lets have a look at some of the airplanes that I personally have flown that had 'problems' with initial operation.
L1011...RB.211-22B engines (later engines, no problems).
DC-7...poor engine reliability
DC-6...fuselage fires that led to grounding of the type for about two months.
Lockheed Electra...wings falling off.
B707... failure to gain UKCAA certification until the rudder boost system was revised, this was a huge problem for the type.
Lockheed Constellation...engine and hydraulic primary control surfaces boost initial problems.
Boeing Stratocruiser. Electrical, propeller, and engine problems.

NO airplane is perfect, and some have more problems that others.

[Edited 2010-12-19 18:29:56]
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: Efficiency Of A330 Vs. DC-10

Mon Dec 20, 2010 11:24 am

Adding to 411A's list of teething problems could be:
- 747. Initially unreliable engines meant delays in delivery.
- A380. Granted this one has demonstrated to be a success or a failure yet. Electrical harness issues. Engines that blow up over Indonesia.


I'm sure the list could be made very long.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
simonriat
Posts: 174
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RE: Efficiency Of A330 Vs. DC-10

Sat Dec 25, 2010 3:42 pm

In terms of beauty however, I would take a DC10 over a A300 any day. What a stunner.

Just wish I had a chance to fly on either of them.

I have also heard it said that the DC10 was an absolute joy to fly a real pilots aircraft, in fact I have heard on a number of occasions they were better to fly than a 747. Again I cant comment I'm not a pilot.

And as they say beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
 
VC-10
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RE: Efficiency Of A330 Vs. DC-10

Sun Dec 26, 2010 5:27 am

Quoting 411A (Reply 10):
In addition, the original A300 was not an extended range approved airplane....only two engines and not enough fuel capacity.

I once knew a Laker Airways DC-10 FE who told of a time he operated a DC-10 flight from MAN to Las Palmas. On the same day at around the same time a Laker A300 was operating the same route. The A300 burned 500 kgs more fuel than the '10 due to structural limitions preventing it cruising at the same alt as the '10
 
Transpac787
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RE: Efficiency Of A330 Vs. DC-10

Sun Dec 26, 2010 5:33 am

Quoting simonriat (Reply 53):
I have also heard it said that the DC10 was an absolute joy to fly a real pilots aircraft, in fact I have heard on a number of occasions they were better to fly than a 747. Again I cant comment I'm not a pilot.

Not to vicariously quote someone since I've never flown either but my dad flew both DC10 and 747-400 and really did not like the DC10 but *loved* the 744 - flew it for 11 years.
 
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zeke
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RE: Efficiency Of A330 Vs. DC-10

Sun Dec 26, 2010 8:49 am

Quoting VC-10 (Reply 54):

Not possible, they have the same engines, the DC-10 has one more.

Besides, structural limits on cruise altitudes ? someone is pulling your leg.
“Don't be a show-off. Never be too proud to turn back. There are old pilots and bold pilots, but no old, bold pilots.” E. Hamilton Lee, 1949
 
thegeek
Posts: 1334
Joined: Mon Nov 26, 2007 7:20 am

RE: Efficiency Of A330 Vs. DC-10

Sun Dec 26, 2010 9:42 am

Quoting zeke (Reply 56):
Not possible, they have the same engines, the DC-10 has one more.

Not for a normal flight. Perhaps the DC10 was doing a (perhaps two engine) ferry flight while empty but the A300 had a full payload.
 
VC-10
Posts: 3552
Joined: Tue Oct 26, 1999 11:34 am

RE: Efficiency Of A330 Vs. DC-10

Sun Dec 26, 2010 8:22 pm

Quoting zeke (Reply 56):


Not possible, they have the same engines, the DC-10 has one more.

Besides, structural limits on cruise altitudes ? someone is pulling your leg.

Higher cruising altitude = lower fuel burn

Structural limits - heard of Max Cabin Differential Pressure?

Another factor would be Crz Alt vs Wt

[Edited 2010-12-26 12:27:13]
 
gabep
Posts: 111
Joined: Fri Oct 10, 2003 6:07 am

RE: Efficiency Of A330 Vs. DC-10

Sun Dec 26, 2010 11:24 pm

Quoting thegeek (Reply 9):
s that a mistake in the drafting of the rules?

Pilot's certainly felt that way.

Quoting timz (Reply 29):
1977-78 Jane's says

Be careful with "Jane's says."

As to the original poster questions:

Quoting tsugambler (Thread starter):
A330 is 38% more efficient than the DC-10. Are the efficiency gains of the A330 over the DC-10 primarily due to having one less engine?

No, but it does save a lot in terms of fuel, weight, and maintenance.

Quoting tsugambler (Thread starter):
Could the DC-10 have been made as efficient if it had one less engine?

Yes, but larger engines would have been required. Size to efficiency just didn't exist at the time.
 
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zeke
Posts: 16309
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RE: Efficiency Of A330 Vs. DC-10

Mon Dec 27, 2010 4:05 am

Quoting thegeek (Reply 57):
Not for a normal flight. Perhaps the DC10 was doing a (perhaps two engine) ferry flight while empty but the A300 had a full payload.

OEI on a trijet would burn more fuel than all engines in a twin, they altitude capability is not the same. Like one engine out on a twin cannot maintain the same the same altitude as all engines.

The empty weight of the DC-10 is around 35,000 kg heavier than the A300, maximum payload on the A300 is around 35,000 kg. So an A300 loaded with maximum payload (nil fuel) has about the same weight as an empty DC-10 (nil fuel).

No way in the world is a DC-10 then loaded with 35,000 kg going to burn the same as a DC-10 that is empty, nor is a DC-10 on 2 engines going to burn fuel less than an A300.

Quoting VC-10 (Reply 58):
Higher cruising altitude = lower fuel burn

Going higher does not automatically mean lower fuel burns, if you fly above optimum level, fuel burn increases.

Quoting VC-10 (Reply 58):
Structural limits - heard of Max Cabin Differential Pressure?

Yes I have, but what you have described above would require the A300 on two engines to burn more fuel than a three engine aircraft. The cabin pressure diff you would be taking about would be huge, and it would be a widespread known issue with the airframe. As far as I am aware all the Airbus series tend to have their safety relief valves at -1 and 8.85 psi, that would cover the airframe nicely for all normal cruising levels. The sort of difference you are talking about would mean the A300 would have to do the sector at around FL180 while the DC-10 is at FL360.

Someone is pulling your leg if you think the A300 has a structural limit of FL180. Being a licenced mechanic, one would think you should know better.

Quoting VC-10 (Reply 58):
Another factor would be Crz Alt vs Wt

That should be in favour of the A300, it has the better wing (aerodynamically) out of the two aircraft. Besides the DC-10 empty weight is around 35,000 kg heavier than the A300.
“Don't be a show-off. Never be too proud to turn back. There are old pilots and bold pilots, but no old, bold pilots.” E. Hamilton Lee, 1949
 
thegeek
Posts: 1334
Joined: Mon Nov 26, 2007 7:20 am

RE: Efficiency Of A330 Vs. DC-10

Tue Dec 28, 2010 9:47 am

Quoting zeke (Reply 60):
The empty weight of the DC-10 is around 35,000 kg heavier than the A300, maximum payload on the A300 is around 35,000 kg.

Sounds pretty unequivocal then.
 
Pihero
Posts: 4318
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2005 5:11 am

RE: Efficiency Of A330 Vs. DC-10

Tue Dec 28, 2010 1:33 pm

Quoting simonriat (Reply 53):
I have also heard it said that the DC10 was an absolute joy to fly a real pilots aircraft, in fact I have heard on a number of occasions they were better to fly than a 747.

Pilots can be quite partial with their aircraft.
The -Ten a pilot's aircraft ?... suffice it to say that it was flown most of the time on CWS -control wheel steering - i.e through the autopilot, which is an absolute hoot when I hear people bashing the 'Bus for being all the time on A/P !
On the other hand, the 744 is probably the most secure-feeling airplane I gad the pleasure to hand-fly...after the 'Bus, of course !

Do you know how we recognize a former -Ten pilot ? He violently pushes the stick forward at wheel touch-down ( because on the -Ten, the spoiler deployment causes a rather violent pitch-up moment)... joy to fly, indeed !

[Edited 2010-12-28 05:34:57]
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