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Dainan
Topic Author
Posts: 35
Joined: Sat Sep 17, 2005 10:39 pm

No Landing Clearance: When To Go Around?

Wed Mar 09, 2011 11:29 am

Let's say that you're on short finals for a given runway. It's CAVOC conditions and no airplanes on the active as far as you can see. The runway comes closer and closer, but still no final clearence to land from the ATC. At what point do you go around due to not having a landing clearence? Is it when you reach minimums?

If it were a non precition approach, would you continue down towards the runway after passing the FAP? You still might have a few miles from the FAP to the runway, and since its CAVOC conditions you have a visual of the runway long before the FAP. At what point do you abort the landing due to not being cleared to land?
 
wilco737
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No Landing Clearance: When To Go Around?

Wed Mar 09, 2011 11:50 am

Quoting Dainan (Thread starter):
CAVOC

I think you mean CAVOK (clouds and visibility OK)  

I fly for 7 years now and never had the situation that we didn't have a landing clearance. Usually it comes early enough. I personally would fly to around 100-200 feet above the runway and before that try to get in contact with ATC and try to get the landing clearance. Landing without a clearance? better not...

wilco737
  
 
26point2
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No Landing Clearance: When To Go Around?

Wed Mar 09, 2011 11:52 am

It's CAVOK. No need to worry about minimums. You should be worrying about getting on the radio and asking if you are cleared to land.
 
IAHFLYR
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No Landing Clearance: When To Go Around?

Wed Mar 09, 2011 12:49 pm

Initiate the go-around prior to the threshold of the landing runway.
 
Dainan
Topic Author
Posts: 35
Joined: Sat Sep 17, 2005 10:39 pm

No Landing Clearance: When To Go Around?

Wed Mar 09, 2011 1:15 pm

Hehe sorry about that one and thank's for correcting me! It should of course say CAVOK 
Quoting 26point2 (Reply 2):
I personally would fly to around 100-200 feet above the runway
Quoting IAHFLYR (Reply 3):

Initiate the go-around prior to the threshold of the landing runway.

So I guess that there is no predetermined specific point where you're supposed to go around in a situation like this than. I guess that it must be a rare event at any rate though, but I guess that even the best radio could have a bad day and stopp working at the worst imaginable time.  
 
wilco737
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No Landing Clearance: When To Go Around?

Wed Mar 09, 2011 1:17 pm

Quoting Dainan (Reply 4):
So I guess that there is no predetermined specific point where you're supposed to go around in a situation like this than.

Correct, no defined point where or when to decide to go around.

Quoting Dainan (Reply 4):
I guess that it must be a rare event at any rate though

As I said, I am flying for 7 years now, 2300 flights and never happened to me yet...

wilco737
  
 
IAHFLYR
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No Landing Clearance: When To Go Around?

Wed Mar 09, 2011 2:28 pm

Quoting wilco737 (Reply 5):
As I said, I am flying for 7 years now, 2300 flights and never happened to me yet



Not happened to me in over a modest 1,000 hours of flying and countless years of issuing landing clearances.
 
PGNCS
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No Landing Clearance: When To Go Around?

Wed Mar 09, 2011 10:41 pm

Quoting IAHFLYR (Reply 3):
Initiate the go-around prior to the threshold of the landing runway.

That is an excellent answer, but is it regulatory? I have never really thought about the latest time you can legally be given a clearance to land (or accept one.) I was going to say sometime prior to the flare, which would vary with individual comfort levels...I doubt I personally would go below 100 feet or so without one, which is around the end of the overrun in most places. Like others said, most of the time a simple query to ATC gets your clearance, the problem is when the radios are all jammed up.

Quoting wilco737 (Reply 1):
I fly for 7 years now and never had the situation that we didn't have a landing clearance. Usually it comes early enough. I personally would fly to around 100-200 feet above the runway and before that try to get in contact with ATC and try to get the landing clearance.
Quoting IAHFLYR (Reply 6):
Quoting wilco737 (Reply 5):
As I said, I am flying for 7 years now, 2300 flights and never happened to me yet



Not happened to me in over a modest 1,000 hours of flying and countless years of issuing landing clearances

There are several facilities that I frequent that will say "expect landing clearance on short final" and they sometimes mean really short. I have gone around for lack of a clearance, but it's been a while. The last time was in ATL.

Most facilities aren't as well run as IAH!  
Quoting wilco737 (Reply 1):
Landing without a clearance? better not...

We certainly agree on that. I had a friend do it once. It is not recommended!

[Edited for clarification.]

[Edited 2011-03-09 14:46:03]
 
vikkyvik
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No Landing Clearance: When To Go Around?

Wed Mar 09, 2011 11:07 pm

Not sure if this will answer your question, but there was a similar discussion a couple years ago (prompted by an experience I had as a passenger):

CAT III Missed Approach (by Vikkyvik Jul 11 2007 in Tech Ops)
 
PGNCS
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No Landing Clearance: When To Go Around?

Wed Mar 09, 2011 11:16 pm

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 8):
Not sure if this will answer your question, but there was a similar discussion a couple years ago (prompted by an experience I had as a passenger):

I didn't read the whole thread, but understood the main points. That's one reason I said I would be hesitant to go below 100' RA; at a 50' Alert Height on a Cat 3, the aircraft very well may (in some aircraft read that "probably will") touch down even if the missed approach is started right at 50'.

I actually really like what IAHFLYR said, and think that will become my default answer (i.e. go around if no landing clearance received by the threshold of the landing runway in VMC or 100' RA in IMC at the latest.)
 
vikkyvik
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No Landing Clearance: When To Go Around?

Wed Mar 09, 2011 11:56 pm

Quoting PGNCS (Reply 9):
I didn't read the whole thread, but understood the main points. That's one reason I said I would be hesitant to go below 100' RA; at a 50' Alert Height on a Cat 3, the aircraft very well may (in some aircraft read that "probably will") touch down even if the missed approach is started right at 50'.

I actually really like what IAHFLYR said, and think that will become my default answer (i.e. go around if no landing clearance received by the threshold of the landing runway in VMC or 100' RA in IMC at the latest.)

Just FYI, I wasn't directing my post at you - just providing a link to the OP. Sorry for not being clear!
 
2H4
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No Landing Clearance: When To Go Around?

Thu Mar 10, 2011 12:44 am

Quoting Dainan (Thread starter):
finals

Nitpicking department - it's final. Singular. Not plural, unless you're flying two separate final approach courses simultaneously.

/ nitpicking

 
 
PGNCS
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No Landing Clearance: When To Go Around?

Thu Mar 10, 2011 1:03 am

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 10):
Just FYI, I wasn't directing my post at you - just providing a link to the OP. Sorry for not being clear!

No problem at all; glad you linked it!  
 
pilotpip
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No Landing Clearance: When To Go Around?

Thu Mar 10, 2011 1:14 am

If I get to short final, and there's any question from either of us on if we did or did not receive a landing clearance we ask. Usually sometime on short final. More often than not it's because neither of us remember. When in doubt, ask.
 
lowrider
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RE: No Landing Clearance: When To Go Around?

Thu Mar 10, 2011 2:15 am

Quoting PGNCS (Reply 7):
The last time was in ATL.

Went around years ago in ATL for the exact same reason. I waited until we were crossing the threshold because that was the lowest possible point I figured I could successfully initiate the go around from. Wanted to give tower as much time as possible. However the frequency was so busy there was no chance to break in and ask for a landing clearance.
 
Fly2HMO
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RE: No Landing Clearance: When To Go Around?

Thu Mar 10, 2011 2:39 am

Quoting pilotpip (Reply 13):
When in doubt, ask.

Thank you thank you thank you! Can't believe it took so long for somebody to say that. That's probably the #1 thing many CFIs don't stress enough when teaching students how to deal with ATC.

It has happened to me before, 2 or 3 times. But more frequently I'll forget if I'm cleared myself (specially if I get a clearance far out in advance) so I ask to confirm. Always good to double check.
 
IAHFLYR
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RE: No Landing Clearance: When To Go Around?

Thu Mar 10, 2011 2:49 am

Quoting PGNCS (Reply 7):
That is an excellent answer, but is it regulatory?



Not that I'm aware of however, when working as a controller the landing threshold is a spot where you either issue a go- around to the approaching traffic or a landing clearance. That could be where my idea of a go-around comes from!

Quoting PGNCS (Reply 9):
I actually really like what IAHFLYR said, and think that will become my default answer



I detect a suck up here, looking for direct someplace.   
 
PGNCS
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Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2007 5:07 am

RE: No Landing Clearance: When To Go Around?

Thu Mar 10, 2011 3:13 am

Quoting lowrider (Reply 14):
Quoting PGNCS (Reply 7):
The last time was in ATL.

Went around years ago in ATL for the exact same reason. I waited until we were crossing the threshold because that was the lowest possible point I figured I could successfully initiate the go around from. Wanted to give tower as much time as possible. However the frequency was so busy there was no chance to break in and ask for a landing clearance.

   Exactly. Boy were they surprised when we went around. We were told to expect landing clearance on short final...lots of traffic on the radio...I think they forgot us (or they couldn't get it out onto the frequency.) They asked why we were on the go, and gave us a north turn to 3500' (which is approximately the missed approach to 26R) and we said "no landing clearance." They switched us to departure and we got in about 20 minutes later. The worst was standing at the door saying goodbye and having to address the situation over and over again to those who didn't listen to or didn't believe our PA explaining the go around.

Quoting IAHFLYR (Reply 16):
Quoting PGNCS (Reply 7):
That is an excellent answer, but is it regulatory?



Not that I'm aware of however, when working as a controller the landing threshold is a spot where you either issue a go- around to the approaching traffic or a landing clearance. That could be where my idea of a go-around comes from!

I am glad this came up, because I wasn't aware of a defined point where we had to go around if we didn't have a landing clearance, but I realized I really didn't know the answer. I learned something from this one, so thanks Dainan for thinking to start it (and to the contributors.) I do like the "no later than 100' RA or runway threshold" method, and think it's my new technique (until someone can come up with something better, anyway.)

Quoting IAHFLYR (Reply 16):
Quoting PGNCS (Reply 9):
I actually really like what IAHFLYR said, and think that will become my default answer



I detect a suck up here, looking for direct someplace.

Can I get direct to the FAF at JFK, please?   
 
IAHFLYR
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RE: No Landing Clearance: When To Go Around?

Thu Mar 10, 2011 3:23 am

Quoting PGNCS (Reply 17):
I am glad this came up, because I wasn't aware of a defined point where we had to go around if we didn't have a landing clearance



That is just the where the controller is required to have the go-around issued by when/if the preceding aircraft hasn't exited the runway in most situations, so I figured it was a good spot for me when flying to also initiate the go-around if no clearance had been received and I couldn't get an edge in word wise.   There's always a catch some place that's different!

Quoting PGNCS (Reply 17):
Can I get direct to the FAF at JFK, please?



Sure, with a credit card number.
 
tower
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RE: No Landing Clearance: When To Go Around?

Thu Mar 10, 2011 3:25 am

I have pilots ask for a reminder or to confirm that they are cleared to land anywhere from short final to about 4 miles out. I assume they just forgot. On occation we have to issue the "continue expect landing clearance 2 mile final traffic holding in position (when we are below mins for LUAW + landing clearance). But I haven't seen anyone go around because they didn't have the clearance. But then again we aren't as busy as ATL.
 
IAHFLYR
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RE: No Landing Clearance: When To Go Around?

Thu Mar 10, 2011 3:29 am

Quoting Tower (Reply 19):
But then again we aren't as busy as ATL



Maybe you should issue more go-arounds to get the traffic count up to the ATL level.   
 
pilotpip
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RE: No Landing Clearance: When To Go Around?

Thu Mar 10, 2011 3:34 am

Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 15):
Thank you thank you thank you! Can't believe it took so long for somebody to say that. That's probably the #1 thing many CFIs don't stress enough when teaching students how to deal with ATC.

Best that ever happened to me, I was new to 121 taxing in DEN. My captain just came from another a/c and had never been to DEN. We landed 35R and had the long taxi. I asked 3 times about our instructions. Finally we stopped because the captain was unsure. I asked again without hesitation. Ground got snippy with me, told me to taxi like a big boy or something sarcastic. My response was "I ask, or you do paperwork. You choose." After that we were talking to someone different. My guess is a supervisor.

I've also asked for a progressive. Just because you're a pro doesn't mean you don't make mistakes. Asking IS the professional thing to do. It can prevent a lot of problems.
 
PGNCS
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RE: No Landing Clearance: When To Go Around?

Thu Mar 10, 2011 3:35 am

Quoting Tower (Reply 19):
I have pilots ask for a reminder or to confirm that they are cleared to land anywhere from short final to about 4 miles out. I assume they just forgot.

Normally that's exactly right, we just forget. I have had ATC forget to issue the clearance or get sidetracked with something else. A radio call is free, and I would rather ask and make you say it twice than land one time I wasn't supposed to. The truth is when we fly lots of multi-leg days, especially in and out of the same hub (or are at the end of a long international leg) we forget whether it was this flight or last flight, so forgive us, we really aren't trying to annoy you!  
Quoting Tower (Reply 19):
But I haven't seen anyone go around because they didn't have the clearance.

It's rare, but it's happened to me and I have seen it happen to others too.

Quoting Tower (Reply 19):
But then again we aren't as busy as ATL.

Nowhere is!  
Quoting IAHFLYR (Reply 18):
Quoting PGNCS (Reply 17):
I am glad this came up, because I wasn't aware of a defined point where we had to go around if we didn't have a landing clearance



That is just the where the controller is required to have the go-around issued by when/if the preceding aircraft hasn't exited the runway in most situations, so I figured it was a good spot for me when flying to also initiate the go-around if no clearance had been received and I couldn't get an edge in word wise.

I wasn't aware that was the ATC rule, but it makes perfect sense. Thanks!
 
vikkyvik
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RE: No Landing Clearance: When To Go Around?

Thu Mar 10, 2011 3:45 am

Quoting PGNCS (Reply 12):
Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 10):
Just FYI, I wasn't directing my post at you - just providing a link to the OP. Sorry for not being clear!

No problem at all; glad you linked it!

My pleasure, but now I do have a question:

Quoting PGNCS (Reply 9):
I didn't read the whole thread, but understood the main points. That's one reason I said I would be hesitant to go below 100' RA; at a 50' Alert Height on a Cat 3, the aircraft very well may (in some aircraft read that "probably will") touch down even if the missed approach is started right at 50'.

What exactly is the "problem" with touching down? As PhilSquares stated in that older thread, with an AH of 20' in a 744, you're sure as hell going to touch down even if you go around.

As long as you are going around, what's the difference whether you level out at 5 feet above the runway, or whether you touch down for a couple hundred feet?

Thanks  
 
tower
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RE: No Landing Clearance: When To Go Around?

Thu Mar 10, 2011 3:47 am

Quoting IAHFLYR (Reply 20):
Maybe you should issue more go-arounds to get the traffic count up to the ATL level.

I would rather just have a GA come over and do touch and go's on our 4th runway. That way we don't have the airlines complaining!  
Quoting PGNCS (Reply 22):

It doesn't bother me that you all ask again. It takes all of 10 seconds of my time. And we aren't as busy as we use to be (per the senior controllers at my facility!) so it isn't a big deal.

Quoting pilotpip (Reply 21):
I've also asked for a progressive. Just because you're a pro doesn't mean you don't make mistakes. Asking IS the professional thing to do. It can prevent a lot of problems.

Just the other month I had a pilot make the wrong turn after they were issued taxi instructions. I simply informed them that they made the wrong turn and gave them instructions from there. I could tell he felt embarrassed because he apologized 3 times and then also asked for progressive about 3 minutes later. I commend him for admiting he didn't know where he was and asking for help. I have no problem with progressive. We also had very low ceilings that day too, so it didn't help.
 
IAHFLYR
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RE: No Landing Clearance: When To Go Around?

Thu Mar 10, 2011 3:54 am

Quoting pilotpip (Reply 13):
When in doubt, ask
Quoting pilotpip (Reply 21):
I've also asked for a progressive. Just because you're a pro doesn't mean you don't make mistakes. Asking IS the professional thing to do



Bingo! Ask if you even slightly doubt, any controller who has anything other than being glad that you asked before making a bad decision needs to find another career.

Quoting Tower (Reply 24):
I commend him for admiting he didn't know where he was and asking for help. I have no problem with progressive.

Exactly
 
PGNCS
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RE: No Landing Clearance: When To Go Around?

Thu Mar 10, 2011 3:57 am

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 23):
Quoting PGNCS (Reply 9):
I didn't read the whole thread, but understood the main points. That's one reason I said I would be hesitant to go below 100' RA; at a 50' Alert Height on a Cat 3, the aircraft very well may (in some aircraft read that "probably will") touch down even if the missed approach is started right at 50'.

What exactly is the "problem" with touching down? As PhilSquares stated in that older thread, with an AH of 20' in a 744, you're sure as hell going to touch down even if you go around.

As long as you are going around, what's the difference whether you level out at 5 feet above the runway, or whether you touch down for a couple hundred feet?

Thanks

There's no problem in touching down during the go around if you are cleared to land; the scenario is we aren't cleared to land...I don't know why...is there something on the runway I will run into if I touch down? In other words, if I am not cleared to land I do not want my tires to contact the pavement.

In these low AH approaches I fully expect to touch down if I miss at the AH. Even with a 50' DA like the MD-80 generally can do, touching down is still a definite possibility even in a "relatively" small aircraft (inertia is a powerful thing.) I have done a couple of MAP's at a 50' DH in the real world and we never touched down; in the sim I have done many more and it happens sometimes. There's a note about it in our manuals.

Hope this helps.
 
PGNCS
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RE: No Landing Clearance: When To Go Around?

Thu Mar 10, 2011 4:19 am

Quoting Tower (Reply 24):
Quoting pilotpip (Reply 21):
I've also asked for a progressive. Just because you're a pro doesn't mean you don't make mistakes. Asking IS the professional thing to do. It can prevent a lot of problems.

Just the other month I had a pilot make the wrong turn after they were issued taxi instructions. I simply informed them that they made the wrong turn and gave them instructions from there. I could tell he felt embarrassed because he apologized 3 times and then also asked for progressive about 3 minutes later. I commend him for admiting he didn't know where he was and asking for help. I have no problem with progressive. We also had very low ceilings that day too, so it didn't help.
Quoting IAHFLYR (Reply 25):
Quoting Tower (Reply 24):
I commend him for admiting he didn't know where he was and asking for help. I have no problem with progressive.

Exactly

Sometimes I think controllers (not you, of course...not that I'm sucking up!) forget that we fly to a couple of hundred airports, whereas you are intimately familiar with one. Believe me that taxiways can look extremely confusing from the cockpit, especially at night, in the rain, when there's snow on the ground, it's low visibility, etc. Even airports that I have been to many times before can look really different with different conditions (or when we're tired,) and a lot of the older airports with weird angles at intersections are really bad.

By way of illustration, consider this: I went to CLT last month at night. Now I learned to fly out of CLT in a PA-28 when it was just a TRSA (am I dating myself?) and was a PI hub. I have been in and out of CLT hundreds of times in a whole slew of aircraft types. Last week we arrived late and got a really strange taxi clearance that took us through the hotspot over by the intersection of 5/23 and 36L/18R. It is uphill with a crest in the direction we were going and despite having been all over that airport in all sorts of conditions I was confused. I had my 10-9 page out and so did the FO. Turns out I was thinking I needed to make one turn, when the FO pointed out that I actually wanted another one. We complied with the clearance by going very slow, and both of us paying attention. Fortunately we didn't create a hazard, bust a clearance, have a runway incursion, or otherwise embarrass ourselves in front of the controllers (who are a great bunch, BTW.) Part of the lesson here is FO's SPEAK UP!!!

Many airports are uber-confusing, including monstrosities such as JFK and ORD, but also many "smaller" airports with confusing layouts (BWI, PVD, CLE, MDW, etc.) Controllers: I know it looks totally obvious from the tower cab, but believe me, it isn't always so clear when you are trying to taxi the plane, the FA's are calling you, you're starting the other engine, you're doing checklists, you're looking at the DP, Southwest is cutting you off at the intersection, etc. Bottom line, please watch us like hawks, we try really hard to do what you want, but if we get confused have mercy on us and just tell us what we need to do next. Getting snippy (here's looking at you DEN, JFK, and ORD) doesn't help anything. Thanks!
 
tower
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RE: No Landing Clearance: When To Go Around?

Thu Mar 10, 2011 4:34 am

Quoting PGNCS (Reply 27):

I'm thankful for a very simple layout at my airport. And on that note, I personally understand (most of the time, i'm not perfect) that you all have a lot going on and are preparing for departure or just landing and trying to get to the gate to use the bathroom! We aren't going to different airports everyday. We work our facility and airspace everyday and that is it. Sometimes we forget you aren't as familiar as we and it is taken for granted. It does go both ways though and we expect your charts to be out and be ready to go when you come out to taxi. But bottom line is, if you are unsure, speak up! It's better to ask for progressive than here "I have a number for you to copy and call when you're at the gate." Some controllers are old and crabby, but most will comply and help you out without giving you grief. We're in it together.
 
sccutler
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RE: No Landing Clearance: When To Go Around?

Thu Mar 10, 2011 4:48 am

"Tower, confirm Bonanza Niner-Two Romeo cleared to land..."

With 7,000' to work with at my home 'drome, and my turn-off is near the end anyway (I typically land long to avoid excessive time on the runway), I can troll along 5' up for a little while...
 
Dufo
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RE: No Landing Clearance: When To Go Around?

Thu Mar 10, 2011 6:01 am

Flying for fun I would float just above the runway and make another approach. When doing serious business, latest point is the approach minima. After that, there is no guarantee for sufficient go around climb gradients.
 
KELPkid
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RE: No Landing Clearance: When To Go Around?

Thu Mar 10, 2011 6:10 am

Quoting Dainan (Thread starter):

If it were a non precition approach, would you continue down towards the runway after passing the FAP? You still might have a few miles from the FAP to the runway, and since its CAVOC conditions you have a visual of the runway long before the FAP. At what point do you abort the landing due to not being cleared to land?

I would pipe up on the air and say to ATC:

"Tower, Cessna 123, please confirm we are cleared to land."

It might be a courteous way to remind a controller that they didn't give you a clearance 

Worst case, you would fly the missed...
 
CX Flyboy
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RE: No Landing Clearance: When To Go Around?

Thu Mar 10, 2011 6:39 am

Quoting Dufo (Reply 30):
After that, there is no guarantee for sufficient go around climb gradients.

What? Really?
 
mandala499
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RE: No Landing Clearance: When To Go Around?

Thu Mar 10, 2011 7:07 am

Quoting CX Flyboy (Reply 32):
What? Really?

My question exactly!
As long as you haven't passed the far end of the runway by the time one goes into TO/GA and execute the maneuver, you'd be above the minimum gradient climb line for departure out of that runway U were supposed to land on.... right?   

Quoting Dufo (Reply 30):
When doing serious business, latest point is the approach minima. After that, there is no guarantee for sufficient go around climb gradients.

So, U've passed your minimum, you continue the approach, just before you flare, or just as you touchdown (before you deploy reversers), you see an aircraft entering the runway by mistake further down from you... you don't go-around?

Quoting Dainan (Reply 4):
I guess that it must be a rare event at any rate though, but I guess that even the best radio could have a bad day and stopp working at the worst imaginable time.

Happened here once. An aircraft called in to tower during the approach... tower just keeps replying "standby"... but when asked if there's any other traffic, the answer is "negative". Confirm we have landing clearance? Reply, "standby"... Well, the aircraft landed.   
A subsequent inquiry did not blame the crew. Informal conversation with those involved in the inquiry concluded that the ATC were trying to favor another airline by making this one go-around... although the story is much more complicated than that...
 
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Faro
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RE: No Landing Clearance: When To Go Around?

Thu Mar 10, 2011 8:05 am

What about heading? Do you initiate a go-around as per airport chart indications or do you deviate from runway centerline to avoid confusion of departing traffic?

Faro
 
PolymerPlane
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RE: No Landing Clearance: When To Go Around?

Thu Mar 10, 2011 8:19 am

I was flying on United about a month ago, listening to channel 9. We were on short final toward SEA. The approach controller was handing the crew to the SEA tower the conversation went something like :

Approach: United XXX contact seattle tower on nineteen nine.
United: say frequency again
Approach: tower on nineteen nine.
United: OK.
United: Seattle tower
Somebody: contact tower on nineteen nine!
United: Oh ok
United: seattle tower united on final
Tower: United XXX cleared to land

less than 1 min later we landed. IIRC the approach transferred to tower after we made the final turn. The pilot seemed to be confused with the tower frequency.

I am not a pilot, and i do know that pilots are supposed to be prepared for the approach procedures and somewhat frequency, but this was after 12 midnight, and I am sure they weren't so busy. I was a bit perplexed on how bad the approach ATC and pilot communications. I was a bit confused with the "nineteen nine" term and the pilot seemed to be too. On the ground I checked the tower frequency and it was 119.9, which made nineteen nine a little bit more understandable.

What really got me that when the pilot asked again for frequency, I would've thought the ATC would've been more courteous and said one one niner point niner (or one one niner decimal niner). Especially after the third time when the pilot was on the wrong frequency, they kept on saying nineteen nine (I am guessing this is not the proper way of communication)

Have the pilots here encountered something like this? Is this pretty common for ATC to abbreviate?

If this was a pilot from abroad, say China, I am guessing the results could've been pretty ugly.
 
Dainan
Topic Author
Posts: 35
Joined: Sat Sep 17, 2005 10:39 pm

RE: No Landing Clearance: When To Go Around?

Thu Mar 10, 2011 12:04 pm

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 11):
Nitpicking department - it's final. Singular. Not plural, unless you're flying two separate final approach courses simultaneously.

Thank's for clarifying that for me! I always thought that it was wierd that I often saw a "s" at the end of the word. But since I'm not a native speaker and English seems to have so many exceptions, I never really questioned it, so thanks for pointing that out to me sir!  
Quoting PGNCS (Reply 17):
I learned something from this one, so thanks Dainan for thinking to start it (and to the contributors.)

Thanks! I am also very grateful to all the posters who have provided us all with great information on this issue.

Like any landing you can walk away from is a great landing, I guess that any thread that does not turn into a
Boing vs Airbus thread by the 10th post is a great thread! 
Quoting IAHFLYR (Reply 18):
am glad this came up, because I wasn't aware of a defined point where we had to go around if we didn't have a landing clearance


Yeah, I used to wonder about this for the longest time and now I feel silly for not asking it here sooner :P

That is just the where the controller is required to have the go-around issued by when/if the preceding aircraft hasn't exited the runway in most situations, so I figured it was a good spot for me when flying to also initiate the go-around if no clearance had been received

That makes a lot of sense, thanks for explaining your reasoning as well!  
Quoting KELPkid (Reply 31):
I would pipe up on the air and say to ATC:

"Tower, Cessna 123, please confirm we are cleared to land."

It might be a courteous way to remind a controller that they didn't give you a clearance 

Haha agreed!

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 33):
Happened here once. An aircraft called in to tower during the approach... tower just keeps replying "standby"... but when asked if there's any other traffic, the answer is "negative". Confirm we have landing clearance? Reply, "standby"... Well, the aircraft landed.



Sure sounds like there might be a great story behind this incident, do you mind sharing it?  
 
IAHFLYR
Posts: 4422
Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2005 12:56 am

RE: No Landing Clearance: When To Go Around?

Thu Mar 10, 2011 12:37 pm

Quoting Tower (Reply 28):
Some controllers are old and crabby



Some are just old and happy!!  
Quoting PolymerPlane (Reply 35):
I was a bit perplexed on how bad the approach ATC and pilot communications. I was a bit confused with the "nineteen nine" term and the pilot seemed to be too.



That's why there is standard phraseology and when used it is surprising just how well things progress with correct readbacks and little confusion. Not that we all don't have moments of less than sparkling radio technique, but the nineteen nine will get questioned more than if you add a few exta words and issue the frequency in the correct format.

Quoting PolymerPlane (Reply 35):
I would've thought the ATC would've been more courteous and said one one niner point niner (or one one niner decimal niner).



Perfect, and ya have to love the NINER and the FIFE.   
 
26point2
Posts: 1133
Joined: Wed Mar 03, 2010 6:01 am

RE: No Landing Clearance: When To Go Around?

Thu Mar 10, 2011 12:44 pm

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 11):
Nitpicking department - it's final. Singular.

Dude. Your "Final" is his "Finals". It's a regional thing. You fly the "pattern", they don't. You make a "touch and go"...they don't do that either. Give the guy a break.
 
2H4
Posts: 7960
Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2004 11:11 pm

RE: No Landing Clearance: When To Go Around?

Thu Mar 10, 2011 3:52 pm

Quoting 26point2 (Reply 38):
Dude. Your "Final" is his "Finals". It's a regional thing. You fly the "pattern", they don't. You make a "touch and go"...they don't do that either. Give the guy a break.

It was a friendly reminder, that's all. "Finals" is incorrect phraseology. As per ICAO.
 
DiamondFlyer
Posts: 3555
Joined: Wed Oct 29, 2008 11:50 pm

RE: No Landing Clearance: When To Go Around?

Thu Mar 10, 2011 4:29 pm

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 39):
It was a friendly reminder, that's all. "Finals" is incorrect phraseology. As per ICAO.

I like the people who say they have a Privates pilot license. Takes a lot of effort to not laugh at that one.

-DiamondFlyer
 
PGNCS
Posts: 2268
Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2007 5:07 am

RE: No Landing Clearance: When To Go Around?

Thu Mar 10, 2011 4:42 pm

Quoting Tower (Reply 28):
It does go both ways though and we expect your charts to be out and be ready to go when you come out to taxi.

Absolutely. I don't ever taxi without my -9 plate in front of me, even at my home base! Like my story about CLT, even airports with which you are intimately familiar can throw you a curveball every once in a while.

Quoting Tower (Reply 28):
Some controllers are old and crabby, but most will comply and help you out without giving you grief. We're in it together.

Completely agree. Most controllers are excellent, but like bone-headed airplane drivers, the 5% or so who are cranky, self-absorbed, or just plain over it make us appreciate the other 95% even more. That still doesn't mean I would intentionally bid a JFK trip, though.... Thanks for keeping us safe!  
 
Mir
Posts: 19491
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

RE: No Landing Clearance: When To Go Around?

Thu Mar 10, 2011 4:56 pm

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 40):
I like the people who say they have a Privates pilot license. Takes a lot of effort to not laugh at that one.

Technically, in the US there is no such thing as a Private Pilot License. It's a Private Pilot Certificate.

-Mir
 
DiamondFlyer
Posts: 3555
Joined: Wed Oct 29, 2008 11:50 pm

RE: No Landing Clearance: When To Go Around?

Thu Mar 10, 2011 5:09 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 42):
Technically, in the US there is no such thing as a Private Pilot License. It's a Private Pilot Certificate.

Fair enough, but the point remains the same. People who unnecessarily add an "s" to many aviation words often create confusion.

-DiamondFlyer
 
lowrider
Posts: 2542
Joined: Wed Jun 30, 2004 3:09 am

RE: No Landing Clearance: When To Go Around?

Thu Mar 10, 2011 11:03 pm

Quoting faro (Reply 34):
What about heading?

In our case we complied with the published missed until told otherwise.

Quoting Dufo (Reply 30):
When doing serious business, latest point is the approach minima. After that, there is no guarantee for sufficient go around climb gradients.

I wouldn't bet on that, at least not everywhere in the world. With the data we use, we can go around anytime prior to 50 feet agl and still comply with the missed approach gradient. FAR 25 aircraft must show a minimum 3.3% climb gradient from a balked landing.
 
User avatar
Starlionblue
Posts: 20864
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2004 9:54 pm

RE: No Landing Clearance: When To Go Around?

Thu Mar 10, 2011 11:53 pm

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 33):
Happened here once. An aircraft called in to tower during the approach... tower just keeps replying "standby"... but when asked if there's any other traffic, the answer is "negative". Confirm we have landing clearance? Reply, "standby"... Well, the aircraft landed.
A subsequent inquiry did not blame the crew. Informal conversation with those involved in the inquiry concluded that the ATC were trying to favor another airline by making this one go-around... although the story is much more complicated than that...

That's just brilliant. Talk about your overly complex conspiracy. I can just see the police officer: "THAT was your plan? What are you, morons?"

Quoting Dainan (Reply 36):
Like any landing you can walk away from is a great landing, I guess that any thread that does not turn into a
Boing vs Airbus thread by the 10th post is a great thread!

              
 
CX Flyboy
Posts: 6203
Joined: Sun Dec 26, 1999 6:10 pm

RE: No Landing Clearance: When To Go Around?

Fri Mar 11, 2011 2:31 pm

I find this is a difficult one actually with no black or white answer. It really depends on the situation and the reason that you have not been given landing clearance yet. If the tower or aircraft's radio fails, and you are at a quiet airport and the runway is clear, I would just land. It is the safest thing to do with a failed radio. If ATC's intention is to vector you for an approach, clear you for an approach, ask you to continue approach then their intention is to bring you in for a landing and thats what they expect you to do.

If however your landing clearance was delayed because of a runway inspection or other aircraft traffic, especially if crossing runways then it is a different story, I would go around because you simply dont know whether the runway is fully clear or not.

This logic extends to other times of flight as well. We have been told in Hong Kong for example, that if for any reason you don't receive the final turn to intercept the ILS or clearance to intercept it, especially for runway 07, then do it anyway. The intention from ATC is to vector you for an approach and unless they tell you specifically that they want you to overshoot the localiser, then their desire is for you to turn to intercept. I see landing clearance in much the same way. At the end of the day though, assess what the greater risk is, landing or going around. There can be different situations where each course of action is more appropriate than the other. Definitely one of those situations where pilots are paid to be flexible and use the best airmanship for the situation.
 
packcheer
Posts: 159
Joined: Thu Nov 06, 2008 8:28 pm

RE: No Landing Clearance: When To Go Around?

Fri Mar 11, 2011 6:31 pm

Quoting CX Flyboy (Reply 46):

You make an excellent point about intentions, and that very well suits your culture.

In the US I would say that is not the case. If you don't have the clearance to do it, don't do it.

(Speaking not just of aviation but our culture in general) People don't like to share the full big picture with others, so just because the controller's original intention was for me to land, does not mean that something hasn't changed, that he/she may or may not have shared wtih everyone on approach/final/frequency...
 
Dufo
Posts: 829
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 2:41 am

RE: No Landing Clearance: When To Go Around?

Tue Mar 15, 2011 2:47 pm

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 33):
So, U've passed your minimum, you continue the approach, just before you flare, or just as you touchdown (before you deploy reversers), you see an aircraft entering the runway by mistake further down from you... you don't go-around?

Going around if not cleared to land latest at DH/MDA (speaking in IMC) is a safety precaution, we fly in high terrain and sometimes have to increase our minimas to ensure sufficient gradients. Has nothing to do with incursions and other things that could go wrong. What do you see in real Cat II/III anyway? Vehicle 1000m in front of you?
 
bond007
Posts: 4428
Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2005 2:07 am

RE: No Landing Clearance: When To Go Around?

Thu Mar 17, 2011 4:02 am

Quoting Dainan (Thread starter):
The runway comes closer and closer, but still no final clearence to land from the ATC. At what point do you go around due to not having a landing clearence? Is it when you reach minimums?

I don't know about Scandinavia, but in the UK at least, the regulations regarding landing clearances are different from the US. In the UK, AFAIK, you aren't cleared to land unless the runway is clear at the time the clearance is given, so it's much more likely you'll get a late landing clearance on short final at a busy airport. In the US, you can be #4 and get a landing clearance. Many of the pilots I know from the UK, are initially confused that you can be cleared to land with 3 departures, 2 landing aircraft, and 5 vehicles crossing the runway, all happening before you actually touch down!

There are pros and cons of both methods. US pilots will argue it means less chatter on short final .. always a good thing. UK pilots will argue that the US 'cleared to land' is somewhat meaningless, since ATC are only anticipating the runway is clear by the time you touch down.

This does mean though, that in the US, you are more than likely to get a landing clearance soon after contacting tower .. which also means it's also easier to forget you got one (in my case anyway!), so IMO there are more requests for confirmation from ATC. In the UK, at a busy airport, you're not going to get a clearance until short final.

I'm guessing that more pilots land in the US without clearances (or thinking they don't have a clearance), than in the UK and other countries with similar regulations, but I could be wrong  

Jimbo

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