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lenbrazil
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Would A Real Pilot Say “Roger...over And Out”?

Mon Apr 11, 2011 4:44 pm

Someone who posts on another forum I’m a member of claimed that he has been “a licensed private pilot since 1973” but he made comments that led me to believe he was bluffing. The most recent and serious was, “ROGER...OVER AND OUT.(In case you don’t know, that is an aeronautical term)”. However it has been my understanding for a while that this was a Hollywood conflation because as one American pilot and aviation journalist wrote “"Over" means, you're expecting more; "Out" means the conversation has ended and you're going away now, not to be heard from again.” I’ve seen Australian and British sources say the something.

I called him on this apparent contradiction and he replied:

“ROGER means that you have received an instruction from ATC or ATS as it is now called.OVER means that you have transmitted "your" (pilot's) message to ATS and expect a reply.OVER and OUT means that you have transmitted your message to ATS and don't expect a reply from ATS.Another term that is not so widely used is WILCO.This means that you have received an instruction from ATS (pilot) and will cooperate.That is the way we were taught at one of the most distinguished flying schools in Canada.”

It is possible that “over and out” is used in Canada or were the sources who said the term isn’t used elsewhere wrong or as I suspect is he a fake? Or perhaps that he stretched the truth and got his license in the early 70's but hasn't flown for decades.

He also claimed the first 3 “numbers” of his license were “Yankee Zulu Papa” i.e. YZP, would the number of a Canadian license issued in 1973 begin with 3 letters?
 
chrisjw
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RE: Would A Real Pilot Say “Roger...over And Out”?

Mon Apr 11, 2011 5:04 pm

This is straight from wikipedia (which I know isn't the best source), but I believe it is pretty much spot on here:

"The phrases "over" and "out" are generally only used on maritime radios since there are usually far fewer transmissions.[citation needed] Air traffic control (aviation) radio communications, on the other hand, are usually very busy, particularly in the airport environment.[citation needed] The terms "over" and "out" are never used on air traffic control (aviation) radio communications in the interest of "com brevity".[citation needed] Amateur Radio operators avoid using the term out and instead give their registered callsign and "clear" themselves from the frequency being used as this is in compliance with FCC laws governing their usage and practice."

I've never once heard a pilot say 'over and out'. I think the closest thing I've heard to that, is old military pilot's say "I got the target" when calling out traffic for ATC.

The section 4-2-3 of the AIM says the word 'Over' may be used if required for the situation. It also gives a few examples of it's usage. It also says:

"The ground station name and the word "Over" may be omitted if the message requires an obvious reply and there is no possibility for misunderstandings."

http://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publi...ions/atpubs/aim/Chap4/aim0402.html

There is no mention of using the phrase 'Out' though.
 
tdscanuck
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RE: Would A Real Pilot Say “Roger...over And Out”?

Mon Apr 11, 2011 5:05 pm

Quoting lenbrazil (Thread starter):
It is possible that “over and out” is used in Canada or were the sources who said the term isn’t used elsewhere wrong or as I suspect is he a fake?

I hear "Roger" and "Wilco" all the time in modern US ATC usage, so he's right on that score. I have heard "over and out", although not frequently, and typically when talking to non-ATC entities. I almost never hear "over" by itself because you always end ATC transmissions (after initial contact) with your own callsign, which serves the same function as "Over" but conveys more data (it says you're done *and* who's doing the talking).

Tom.
 
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Moose135
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RE: Would A Real Pilot Say “Roger...over And Out”?

Mon Apr 11, 2011 5:29 pm

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 2):
I hear "Roger" and "Wilco" all the time in modern US ATC usage,

I flew with Roger Wilco in the Air Force...   

But I agree with Tom, "over and out" was rarely heard.
 
Northwest727
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RE: Would A Real Pilot Say “Roger...over And Out”?

Mon Apr 11, 2011 5:29 pm

I've never used or heard anyone else use "Out" and "Wilco." I occasionally hear "Roger." I (along with most other pilots-it seems) only use "Over" after a message to verify that someone is listening, say, when you contact the tower three times and don't hear a reply.
 
wilco737
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RE: Would A Real Pilot Say “Roger...over And Out”?

Mon Apr 11, 2011 5:42 pm

I personally use WILCO from time to time. ROGER is used by US Controllers a lot. You contact a new center controller and all that you hear: "Lufthansa 456, roger, good morning". So many many rogers here.

OVER and OUT? Never used by my in all my years as a pilot...

wilco737
  
 
David L
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RE: Would A Real Pilot Say “Roger...over And Out”?

Mon Apr 11, 2011 5:59 pm

In the military in the UK you'd get a kick up the @rse for saying "over and out". It's strictly "over" or "out" - "over" to denote the end of a transmission and "out" to denote the end of the conversation.
 
lenbrazil
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RE: Would A Real Pilot Say “Roger...over And Out”?

Mon Apr 11, 2011 6:04 pm

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 2):
I have heard "over and out", although not frequently, and typically when talking to non-ATC entities.

Tom and Moose,

Were these rare users actual pilots?





Tom and any other Canadians,

Do you think a Canadian flight school might have taught “over and out” in the early 70’s. Would the number of a license issued back then begin with 3 letters (YZP)?
 
tdscanuck
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RE: Would A Real Pilot Say “Roger...over And Out”?

Mon Apr 11, 2011 6:32 pm

Quoting lenbrazil (Reply 7):
Tom and Moose, Were these rare users actual pilots?

Yes, although the only concrete example I can think of was a pilot talking to the ground guy on headset, not a radio transmission.

Quoting lenbrazil (Reply 7):
Tom and any other Canadians,
Do you think a Canadian flight school might have taught “over and out” in the early 70’s. Would the number of a license issued back then begin with 3 letters (YZP)?

Sorry, that's before my time and I don't know.

Quoting Northwest727 (Reply 4):
I've never used or heard anyone else use "Out" and "Wilco."

I've never heard "Out" used with ATC. I've heard actual pilots use "Wilco" with ATC fairly often...usually when it's a future instruction. For example "SkyJet XYZ, turn right heading 220" gets a "Roger, right 220 XYZ" but "SkyJet XYZ, descend at pilots discretion, maintain FL190" gets a "Wilco, descent pilots discretion FL190 XYZ", signifying that we will comply with the instruction but we're not executing it right now. So far as I know, this is just a style thing and not codified anywhere.

Tom.
Tom.
 
Maverick623
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RE: Would A Real Pilot Say “Roger...over And Out”?

Mon Apr 11, 2011 7:09 pm

Quoting lenbrazil (Thread starter):
claimed that he has been “a licensed private pilot since 1973” but he made comments that led me to believe he was bluffing.

Remember, just because one may have been licensed, doesn't mean they've flown since 1973.

Quoting lenbrazil (Thread starter):
OVER AND OUT.

That phrase is obsolete in modern aviation. It's sometimes used in maritime and CB, but rarely. There's no reason for it anymore, it just ties up the airwaves even more.

Quoting lenbrazil (Thread starter):
ROGER means that you have received an instruction from ATC

Correct.

Quoting lenbrazil (Thread starter):
Another term that is not so widely used is WILCO.

I hear wilco all the time, and use it myself when it's busy to acknowledge my intent to comply without reading back any non-required clearances.
 
Woodreau
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RE: Would A Real Pilot Say “Roger...over And Out”?

Mon Apr 11, 2011 8:09 pm

Jumping in late here. I'm a pilot and I use "Roger, over." and "Roger, out." but not in any aviation context but instead in the navy. The navy uses these brevity terms on their command and tactical nets as general radiotelephone procedure. For example on an air defense command net, a reporting unit will make a contact of interest report on the net. The reply from the other end is "Roger, out.". Or a commander may direct the unit to take action against a target, and issue an order, "Desig bogey track 4545 as bandit, Take track 4545 with birds.". The unit being ordered will respond with "Roger, out.". And subsequently make engagement reports back on the net. "Birds affirm track 4545 . . . birds away." "splash track 4545". Or "negat splash/negat birds" or some other report. The response to all the reports is "Roger, out."

In the navy context, Over and Out are never used together. Either use over or use out. If you use over when you meant to use out, the other person will answer back "Roger, out." for you

On a tactical maneuvering net a formation commander may order a formation screen. "All units in November this is Alfa November, execute to follow formation 1 desig (call signs of ships in the order they are to form up)". Each ship will answer with their callsign and "Roger, out.". "Formation 1 standby, execute.". Every ship "Roger, out."s

Wilco? I use that a lot in Chicago talking to ground if I can get a reply in edgewise or if there isn't a mandatory readback. But since there is a lot of mandatory readback in aviation the use of Wilco is limited. Roger I use frequently. Over used in jest (when I check-in several times and don't get a peep or even any other traffic). Out never saw fit to use it in any aviation context.
 
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longhauler
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RE: Would A Real Pilot Say “Roger...over And Out”?

Mon Apr 11, 2011 8:37 pm

Quoting lenbrazil (Thread starter):
He also claimed the first 3 “numbers” of his license were “Yankee Zulu Papa” i.e. YZP, would the number of a Canadian license issued in 1973 begin with 3 letters?

That type of nomenclature hasn't been used for years. YZP would indicate a Private Pilot Licence issued from the Toronto region, (4900 Yonge Street). As, VRP would be a Private licence from the Vancouver region, etc.

Many years ago, they were re-identified no longer including the issuing region. For example my licence went from YZAxxxxxx, to just AAxxxxxx. His licence would have been renumbered from YZPxxxxxx, to just PPxxxxxxx. If his licence had not been changed, (ie. type rating, or IFR renewed) then the actual certificate would still indicate YZP, as nothing has changed.

Quoting lenbrazil (Reply 7):

Do you think a Canadian flight school might have taught “over and out” in the early 70’s.

I learned how to fly in the 1970s. Yeah, I am that old! And no ... I was never taught "over and out". As far as I know, like stated above, those terms are contradictory.
 
Chamonix
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RE: Would A Real Pilot Say “Roger...over And Out”?

Mon Apr 11, 2011 9:23 pm

Quoting David L (Reply 6):
In the military in the UK you'd get a kick up the @rse for saying "over and out". It's strictly "over" or "out" - "over" to denote the end of a transmission and "out" to denote the end of the conversation.

David is absolutely right about this usage and abusage!
Indeed,I had read about it somewhere a while back.
 
Fly2HMO
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RE: Would A Real Pilot Say “Roger...over And Out”?

Mon Apr 11, 2011 9:41 pm

Where I learned to fly (PRC), being a retirement community there were tons of Korean and WW2 pilots who loved to used outdated and silly radio phraseology. ATC did not appreciate it and neither did us in training. So you got these senile weekend warriors clogging up the pattern all the time that when given a traffic advisory they'd just say "tally'ho" or some other long disused radio phrase. That and they all took their sweet ass time clogging up the frequencies. This one guy insisted on saying "over and out" every frickin time he spoke on the radio. You could easily hear the ATCers get annoyed with all these guys.
 
IAHFLYR
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RE: Would A Real Pilot Say “Roger...over And Out”?

Mon Apr 11, 2011 10:10 pm

I have honestly say in over 35 years of flying I have not even once thought of saying "over and out", barely think of saying "over".

Now, turn that around from the other side of the mic, as an ATC person I use over quite often when I don't get a reply to a transmission and it is obvious that I want a reply. You'd be surprised how often a simple "over" will get you the reply that some pilot thought didn't require a read-back.

I'm surprise the sequence from "Airplane" has yet to surface with Roger, and Over!! Must be a slow day  
 
KELPkid
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RE: Would A Real Pilot Say “Roger...over And Out”?

Mon Apr 11, 2011 10:50 pm

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 9):
That phrase is obsolete in modern aviation. It's sometimes used in maritime and CB, but rarely. There's no reason for it anymore, it just ties up the airwaves even more.

"Over" (with no out) is used in amateur radio to denote you are done talking and awaiting a response from the other party. Although I know what "Out" means in radio phraseology, I have never, ever heard it over the airwaves (amateur radio or aviation). In amateur radio, you usually say "73's" (seventy-threes) to denote your conversation is over. It is a throwback to CW, or morse code, as 73 in morse code is a friendly way to say see ya. I agree with David L, though, it would be either "Over" or "out" (and not the two together). "Over and Out" sounds like campy, 1950's John Wayne Hollywood radio phraseology to me  
 
tdscanuck
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RE: Would A Real Pilot Say “Roger...over And Out”?

Tue Apr 12, 2011 12:52 am

Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 13):
So you got these senile weekend warriors clogging up the pattern all the time that when given a traffic advisory they'd just say "tally'ho" or some other long disused radio phrase.

Tally'ho is still in wide use for traffic advisories.

Tom.
 
ThirtyEcho
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RE: Would A Real Pilot Say “Roger...over And Out”?

Tue Apr 12, 2011 5:34 am

I go back to 1959 and the term "over" meant "over to you" and meant that the other transmitter was now clear to transmit. I never heard anybody use it. It might have been useful in the low frequency days.

At the time, there was an ex-RAF type flying for Trans Texas who used a lot of Battle of Britain terminology. He called everybody "Old boy" and a traffic call out was met with a "Tally ho" or a "no joy." He never used the term "Angels" for altitude because that implied a "control lapse" that was in use during the war. If a sector controller issued you an altitude such as "climb to angels 19, control lapse standard" it meant that you were to climb to 22,000. That was done to mess up any German listening stations because the standard lapse was 3,000 feet above the assigned "angels."

He was an interesting fellow to talk with. Experienced fighter pilots in the RAF always flew with a few notches of rudder trim cranked in so that the airplane flew slightly sideways. It really messed up any unseen attack from the rear and if you think a bit about the perceived relative motion, you can see why. The airplane being attacked constantly skidded away from the bullets.

But I digress.
 
chuchoteur
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RE: Would A Real Pilot Say “Roger...over And Out”?

Tue Apr 12, 2011 8:31 am

... actually foreign pilots sometimes use "Roger" and "Wilco".

My personal opinion is that one should take great care when they use those terms, as I've noticed they do so when they haven't fully understood the clearance/are unable to readback.

^^
 
Pihero
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RE: Would A Real Pilot Say “Roger...over And Out”?

Tue Apr 12, 2011 9:56 am

R/T procedures have changed a lot since WWII, so these "cool" words are no longer in general use, I for one have forgotten Roger and out.
1/- "ROGER" was for "R for received" in the old days. As quite a few posters have noted, the need to read-back ATC instructions have made it obsolete.

2/- "OUT" has been replaced by one's call sign as a sign-off word.

2/- "OVER" can still be heard on HF R/T when trying to establish a link like " Dakar, Dakar, this is Budgie bird 123 calling on 5678, over "
That's basically the only time we'd hear them. by the same token, quite a lot of pilots would end their IFB with "out", but that's procedure.

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 16):

Tally'ho is still in wide use for traffic advisories.

Yeah, it'd hurt some guys to use standard phraseology...   

Quoting chuchoteur (Reply 18):

My personal opinion is that one should take great care when they use those terms, as I've noticed they do so when they haven't fully understood the clearance/are unable to readback.

   I've noticed the same, but ATC controllers are not fooled.
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Would A Real Pilot Say “Roger...over And Out”?

Tue Apr 12, 2011 10:22 am

Roger......Yes..
Over & Out ..... No
Not in todays times atleast.
 
David L
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RE: Would A Real Pilot Say “Roger...over And Out”?

Tue Apr 12, 2011 12:04 pm

This instructional video should clear things up:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=GB&v=KJCfUm21BsI
 
nomadd22
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RE: Would A Real Pilot Say “Roger...over And Out”?

Tue Apr 12, 2011 1:59 pm

The US military leaves no doubt in training. "Wilco" implies "Roger", making Roger redundant. Same as "Out" implies "Over" and makes Over redundant. Nobody would ever use both terms in either case unless they were making fun of old movies.
You generally don't hear Wilco and Out because the guy giving the instructions is normally the one to end the conversation.

The conventions have been making a little bit of a comeback in the satphone world because the double delay on geo satphone to geo satphone calls makes it almost impossible to avoid constantly talking over each other.

[Edited 2011-04-12 07:04:52]
 
IAHFLYR
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RE: Would A Real Pilot Say “Roger...over And Out”?

Tue Apr 12, 2011 2:39 pm

Quoting Pihero (Reply 19):
I've noticed the same, but ATC controllers are not fooled.



Only when traffic is issued and the reply is "I have it on the fish finder", then some start thinking they're controlling boats!   

Quoting Pihero (Reply 19):
Yeah, it'd hurt some guys to use standard phraseology



Makes ya wonder if some actually know standard phraseology.
 
Confuscius
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RE: Would A Real Pilot Say “Roger...over And Out”?

Tue Apr 12, 2011 3:07 pm

How 'bout clearance, clarence or vector victor?
 
KELPkid
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RE: Would A Real Pilot Say “Roger...over And Out”?

Tue Apr 12, 2011 3:22 pm

Quoting Pihero (Reply 19):
1/- "ROGER" was for "R for received" in the old days. As quite a few posters have noted, the need to read-back ATC instructions have made it obsolete.

Roger isn't so dead in the US...   Still in pretty common use here for ATC, especially amongst GA and small, class D airports. It's also still in the AIM, so it's still officially recognized.
 
WestWing
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RE: Would A Real Pilot Say “Roger...over And Out”?

Tue Apr 12, 2011 7:06 pm

Quoting lenbrazil (Thread starter):
....WILCO.This means that you have received an instruction from ATS (pilot) and will cooperate

I'm not a pilot, but I always thought WILCO is a contraction of "will comply". Not sure if any definitive and conclusive inferences can be drawn from the person stating (or misremembering) WILCO as "will cooperate".
 
lenbrazil
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RE: Would A Real Pilot Say “Roger...over And Out”?

Tue Apr 12, 2011 11:22 pm

Quoting longhauler (Reply 11):
That type of nomenclature hasn't been used for years. YZP would indicate a Private Pilot Licence issued from the Toronto region, (4900 Yonge Street). As, VRP would be a Private licence from the Vancouver region, etc.

Many years ago, they were re-identified no longer including the issuing region. For example my licence went from YZAxxxxxx, to just AAxxxxxx. His licence would have been renumbered from YZPxxxxxx, to just PPxxxxxxx. If his licence had not been changed, (ie. type rating, or IFR renewed) then the actual certificate would still indicate YZP, as nothing has changed.

Thanks for that.

Do you remember how long ago the switch was made?

If he did not renew his IFR after the switch would it have expired by now?
 
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longhauler
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RE: Would A Real Pilot Say “Roger...over And Out”?

Tue Apr 12, 2011 11:48 pm

Quoting lenbrazil (Reply 27):
Do you remember how long ago the switch was made?

The switch from YZPxxxxxx to just Pxxxxxx was made in the early 1990s. Then it switched to the present PPxxxxxx in the late 1990s.

Quoting lenbrazil (Reply 27):
If he did not renew his IFR after the switch would it have expired by now?

Technically, a Private Pilot Licence never expires. It only takes a valid Aviation Medical to renew/validate it. If you had a type rating, or an IFR, they are renewed yearly. However, even if they expired, the licence itself is still valid. That is what I meant about if nothing on his licence had changed since it was printed, it would be possible to have a licence that still has the old YZPxxxxxx number, even though in Transport Canada files, it would show as PPxxxxxx.

But upon reflection, that is not true. About two years ago, all pilot licences in Canada were reissued, as the format was changed to an "Aviation Document Booklet". This booklet, looking similar to a passport, is now all encompassing containing ID/picture, all licences, all ratings and all renewals. When these booklets were issued, the old licences became invalid. And all pilot licence holders had to replace licences with these booklets, no later than about a year ago.

So .. today, there is no such thing as a YZPxxxxxx document, ALL aviation licences in Canada are now a PPxxxxxx format, (or CCxxxxxx, or AAxxxxxx, etc)

Hope this helps.
 
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Moose135
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RE: Would A Real Pilot Say “Roger...over And Out”?

Tue Apr 12, 2011 11:52 pm

Quoting WestWing (Reply 26):
I'm not a pilot, but I always thought WILCO is a contraction of "will comply"

From the FAA Pilot/Controller Glossary:

WILCO− I have received your message, understand it, and will comply with it.

And, while I have the document open...
OVER− My transmission is ended; I expect a response.
OUT− The conversation is ended and no response is expected.
ROGER− I have received all of your last transmission. It should not
be used to answer a question requiring a yes or a no answer.


[Edited 2011-04-12 16:57:20]
 
Fly2HMO
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RE: Would A Real Pilot Say “Roger...over And Out”?

Wed Apr 13, 2011 12:13 am

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 16):
Tally'ho is still in wide use for traffic advisories.

Again, only if you still got that WW2/Korean/Vietnam vet ace attitude. I don't know a single person trained within the last 20 years that says tally ho. And it's certainly not official phraseology.
 
Mir
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RE: Would A Real Pilot Say “Roger...over And Out”?

Wed Apr 13, 2011 4:23 am

Quoting chuchoteur (Reply 18):
My personal opinion is that one should take great care when they use those terms, as I've noticed they do so when they haven't fully understood the clearance/are unable to readback.

The longer the pause between the instruction and someone saying "roger" or "wilco", the less chance they understood it.

ATC instruction --- three second pause --- "wilco" = "I have no idea what the hell you want me to do, but my ego won't let me admit that, so you might want to read me those instructions again before I go do something you're not expecting and mess up your separation."

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 25):
Roger isn't so dead in the US... Still in pretty common use here for ATC, especially amongst GA and small, class D airports. It's also still in the AIM, so it's still officially recognized.

I use it all the time.

Quoting David L (Reply 21):
This instructional video should clear things up:

Damn, I was going to post that.   

-Mir
 
David L
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RE: Would A Real Pilot Say “Roger...over And Out”?

Wed Apr 13, 2011 7:20 am

Quoting moose135 (Reply 29):
ROGER− I have received all of your last transmission. It should not
be used to answer a question requiring a yes or a no answer.

Some years ago I heard a controller at Prestwick having a hard time with an Ops vehicle. I'm paraphrasing but the conversation went something like:

Tower: "Ops 1, are you clear of the runway?"
Ops 1: "Roger, Ops 1."
Tower: "Are you clear of the runway at this time?"
Ops 1: "Roger, Ops 1."
short pause
Tower: "Ops 1, have you already vacated the runway?"
Ops 1: "ROG-ER, OPS 1!"
longer pause
Tower: "Ops1, please put someone on the radio who is trained to use it."
Ops 1: "Er... roger, Ops 1."

  
 
bri2k1
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RE: Would A Real Pilot Say “Roger...over And Out”?

Wed Apr 13, 2011 5:45 pm

I usually use "OVER" on initial call to a ground station that is not typically very active on a frequency, or that multiples numerous frequencies and landlines, such as a FSS:

"Denver Radio, N12345, receiving 122.35, OVER"

The Flight Service operators usually are monitoring more than one frequency so telling them the frequency I'm on or a nearby VOR helps them know how to get back to me, and saying OVER lets them know I'm done talking and ready for them. They may be on another frequency or landline so it might take a minute, and I will usually wait a minute or two before calling again if they don't answer right away. I obtained my PPL in the USA in 2005.
 
nomadd22
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RE: Would A Real Pilot Say “Roger...over And Out”?

Wed Apr 13, 2011 8:20 pm

God help anyone who says "10-4"
 
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c172akula
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RE: Would A Real Pilot Say “Roger...over And Out”?

Wed Apr 13, 2011 8:49 pm

Over in the YYZ area there is a pretty famous ATC controller that is simply known as "ROG", apparently he is pretty famous for how he says the phrase. Though I've never heard him I believe he pronounces it like "raaaahjer".  
 
KELPkid
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RE: Would A Real Pilot Say “Roger...over And Out”?

Wed Apr 13, 2011 9:54 pm

Quoting nomadd22 (Reply 34):
God help anyone who says "10-4"

Uncle Jessie, Y'gawt your ears on?      
 
tdscanuck
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RE: Would A Real Pilot Say “Roger...over And Out”?

Thu Apr 14, 2011 5:32 am

I tried counting the number of "Roger"s I heard today...I gave up after we passed a dozen.

Tom.
 
lenbrazil
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RE: Would A Real Pilot Say “Roger...over And Out”?

Thu Apr 14, 2011 1:36 pm

Quoting longhauler (Reply 11):
That type of nomenclature hasn't been used for years. YZP would indicate a Private Pilot Licence issued from the Toronto region, (4900 Yonge Street). As, VRP would be a Private licence from the Vancouver region, etc.

Many years ago, they were re-identified no longer including the issuing region. For example my licence went from YZAxxxxxx, to just AAxxxxxx. His licence would have been renumbered from YZPxxxxxx, to just PPxxxxxxx. If his licence had not been changed, (ie. type rating, or IFR renewed) then the actual certificate would still indicate YZP, as nothing has changed.

Sorry for asking a dumb layman's question but do type rating have to be renewed? If so could a private pilot fly legally if their licence were valid but their type rating had expired?

Quoting Mir (Reply 31):
The longer the pause between the instruction and someone saying "roger" or "wilco", the less chance they understood it.

This could be cultural, according to an article I read years ago about some of the complications buisinessmen face when doing business in other countries is that Westerners interpret a pause in answering a question as an indication the respondant has something to hide while Asians interpret it as them being thoughtful.

Quoting nomadd22 (Reply 34):
God help anyone who says "10-4"

Do I take it newbie pilots shouldn't use this video to learn radio jargon?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HWO_AIh8drk

I haven't thought about that song for about 30 years
 
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longhauler
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RE: Would A Real Pilot Say “Roger...over And Out”?

Thu Apr 14, 2011 3:11 pm

Quoting lenbrazil (Reply 38):
Sorry for asking a dumb layman's question but do type rating have to be renewed? If so could a private pilot fly legally if their licence were valid but their type rating had expired?

No such thing as a dumb question.

Technically no, a type rating does not have to be renewed. But, as it is usually associated with a transport sized aircraft, and in a commercial environment, there are usually "other" issues that are covered at the same time. Namely a PPC (not on your licence, it is a commercial operator requirement) , and an IFR (which is on your licence), which do have to be renewed. Most commercial operators do this at the same time.

But as far as the actual paper licence ... once you have a type rating on your licence it remains forever. If your PPC, and IFR expire, you can still exercise the rights of the basic licence you hold. Same thing with, say an Instructor rating. Once it expires, you can still fly, just not instruct.
 
lenbrazil
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RE: Would A Real Pilot Say “Roger...over And Out”?

Thu Apr 14, 2011 4:45 pm

Quoting longhauler (Reply 39):
Technically no, a type rating does not have to be renewed.


OK then someone with a YZP prefix license would not have able to fly legally since TC switched to the booklets and could not have legally flown IFR since TC switched the nomenclature hecause he obviously hasn't renewed his instrument certifiction since?


Does anybody know when TC switch the numbering system for piot's licences?

Is it odd that if he had been actively flying since the early 70's he would not want to be IFR certified? I could easily imagine a pilot flying somewhere then the weather getting too iffy to fly VFR, he be stuck.
 
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longhauler
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RE: Would A Real Pilot Say “Roger...over And Out”?

Thu Apr 14, 2011 5:16 pm

Quoting lenbrazil (Reply 40):
OK then someone with a YZP prefix license would not have able to fly legally since TC switched to the booklets and could not have legally flown IFR since TC switched the nomenclature hecause he obviously hasn't renewed his instrument certifiction since?

That is correct. Since the implementation of the booklets, (about two years ago), he could not have flown legally unless he had one.

Quoting lenbrazil (Reply 40):
Does anybody know when TC switch the numbering system for piot's licences?

The YZP nomenclature became obsolete around the early 1990s. However, as I said before, if he had no ratings requiring renewal, that YZP certificate would have been legal and still used up until the implementation of the booklets.

Quoting lenbrazil (Reply 40):
Is it odd that if he had been actively flying since the early 70's he would not want to be IFR certified?

I would guess a very very large percentage of Private Pilot Licence holders in Canada are not IFR rated.

Other than the cost, (huge) and the yearly bother, I can't see it being all that useful to a Private pilot. Unless you are going from large airport to large airport, flying IFR is hard to do. Unlike Europe (for example), Canada has large vast areas of uncontrolled airspace, with thousands of uncontrolled airports without IFR capability. And, in weather with a lot of icing conditions, you have to get into a pretty capable aircraft before IFR flying in those conditions is wise.

As Private flying is more of a 'sport' than going from A to B, most don't bother with an IFR rating, and just fly when the weather permits.
 
nomadd22
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RE: Would A Real Pilot Say “Roger...over And Out”?

Thu Apr 14, 2011 5:25 pm

Somebody had to do it.
http://youtu.be/fVq4_HhBK8Y
 
Mir
Posts: 19491
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

RE: Would A Real Pilot Say “Roger...over And Out”?

Thu Apr 14, 2011 8:55 pm

Quoting lenbrazil (Reply 38):
This could be cultural, according to an article I read years ago about some of the complications buisinessmen face when doing business in other countries is that Westerners interpret a pause in answering a question as an indication the respondant has something to hide while Asians interpret it as them being thoughtful.

Answering a request is one thing - I've got no problem with a pause there. But when reading back instructions, it's not good for people to be thoughful - people being thoughtful means that they're developing their own interpretation of what the instructions are, which may not be the same as the controller's. So readback promptly - if you and the controller aren't on the same page, things can be clarified.

-Mir
 
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zeke
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RE: Would A Real Pilot Say “Roger...over And Out”?

Thu Apr 14, 2011 9:38 pm

Quoting lenbrazil (Thread starter):
Or perhaps that he stretched the truth and got his license in the early 70's but hasn't flown for decades.

He also claimed the first 3 “numbers” of his license were “Yankee Zulu Papa” i.e. YZP, would the number of a Canadian license issued in 1973 begin with 3 letters?

A PPL holder from the early 1970s that has not have done all that much to keep current may not know what the correct radio terminology is. From time to time one comes across the odd PPL holder making some unusual radio calls, no big problem, the main point is to get your message across.

The radio techniques one would use on HF would also be differnt to VHF.
 
bond007
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RE: Would A Real Pilot Say “Roger...over And Out”?

Mon Apr 18, 2011 6:25 pm

Quoting zeke (Reply 44):
A PPL holder from the early 1970s that has not have done all that much to keep current may not know what the correct radio terminology is. From time to time one comes across the odd PPL holder making some unusual radio calls, no big problem, the main point is to get your message across.

I disagree a little here.The main point is to get your message across in a concise AND consistent format. I'm not saying that using 'over and out' is any issue whatsoever, but other 'old' terminology well may be,and possibly cause confusion. If a PPL holder from the 70s has "not done that much to keep current", then he could well be a danger in the skies. There are numerous major changes in the airspace classifications, radio calls, clearances etc.

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 16):
Tally'ho is still in wide use for traffic advisories.

...and irritates me every time I hear it !


Jimbo
 
trigged
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RE: Would A Real Pilot Say “Roger...over And Out”?

Wed Apr 20, 2011 1:37 pm

Over and Out are military terms, never used together. Over denotes that you are finished with your transmission and clearing the channel for a response. Out is a term used by the calling station to denoted a completed conversation. Receiving station never uses Out, only calling station. Over and Out are never used together.

Roger denotes that you understand the transmission by the calling station. Wilco denotes that you understand the transmission by the calling station AND will comply with the orders sent. To use Roger and Wilco in the same transmission is redundant. They're never used together.

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