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Recent Wing Damage A380

Posted: Wed Apr 13, 2011 4:33 pm
by Chamonix
Having looked at the wing damage,I was wondering about the repairs.
Is the wing in segments thus easily replaceable?
Looks rather nasty.
I have not read the real reasons for the incursion but in one word who is at fault?
Rather like an RTA (Road Traffic Accident).

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...d-smaller-plane-airport-smash.html

RE: Recent Wing Damage A380

Posted: Wed Apr 13, 2011 9:46 pm
by contrails15
there is a thread going on in the civil aviation forum about this. Who's at fault? The investigation will reveal that but lots come into play on it. I was working the ramp at T4 at JFK when this happened. Got to see the damage up close and its massive damage. There gonna have to work on both planes at JFK to at least get them air worthy. Needless to say, both jets aren't going anywhere..

RE: Recent Wing Damage A380

Posted: Wed Apr 13, 2011 11:06 pm
by fr8mech
Without seeing the physical damage it's hard to say how long to repair. But, a surprising amount of that wingtip may be easily replaced. In fact, on all aircraft types I've worked, the wingtip is replacable. Some aircraft, MD11, for example, are a pain in the butt, while others can easily be done in part of a shift.

Now, if the damage has gotten into the spar, all bets are off and the repair, if possible, becomes much more extensive and complicated.

RE: Recent Wing Damage A380

Posted: Thu Apr 14, 2011 4:26 am
by kanban
The pictures I've seen look mostly cosmetic... they've lost the tips before and those components are spareable but again there are few pictures to get a solid idea from.

RE: Recent Wing Damage A380

Posted: Thu Apr 14, 2011 5:27 am
by tdscanuck
Quoting Chamonix (Thread starter):
Is the wing in segments thus easily replaceable?

Wings are more than one part but they're not segmented in any particular way for easy replacement, other than the wingtip is usually a bolt-on component and hence relatively easy to change.

Tom.

RE: Recent Wing Damage A380

Posted: Thu Apr 14, 2011 6:56 pm
by 1010101
Quoting fr8mech (Reply 2):
Now, if the damage has gotten into the spar, all bets are off and the repair, if possible, becomes much more extensive and complicated.

How do assess the damage particularly inside the wing where it can't be seen?

RE: Recent Wing Damage A380

Posted: Thu Apr 14, 2011 7:46 pm
by fr8mech
Quoting 1010101 (Reply 5):
How do assess the damage particularly inside the wing where it can't be seen?

I know nothing about the A380, but on the types I've worked, you can see just about every area of the spar and the wing structure after opening panels and/or entering the fuel tank. Any areas that can not be readily may can be accessed by borescope and at extremes, I guess they can go back to x-ray.

RE: Recent Wing Damage A380

Posted: Thu Apr 14, 2011 9:55 pm
by HAWK21M
Need to access the Interiors to determine the Rectification Action & subsequent duration.
However from Far Exterior.The CRJ looks to have suffered more damage than the A380.

RE: Recent Wing Damage A380

Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2011 12:10 am
by Pihero
The A380 left for CDG some 24 hours after the incident with some cosmetic repairs ( I presume);
It's been worked on at AF Industries at CDG.
Will be released the latest mid next week ( ???)

RE: Recent Wing Damage A380

Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2011 4:46 am
by tdscanuck
Quoting 1010101 (Reply 5):
How do assess the damage particularly inside the wing where it can't be seen?

You can't build a damage tolerant structure (which all current generation airliners are) that can't be inspected...everything in there can be assessed through some combination of access hatches and NDI.

Tom.

RE: Recent Wing Damage A380

Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2011 6:47 am
by Lufthansa411
Quoting Pihero (Reply 8):
The A380 left for CDG some 24 hours after the incident with some cosmetic repairs ( I presume);
It's been worked on at AF Industries at CDG.
Will be released the latest mid next week ( ???)

Thanks for that update. It confirms what I heard, that the fix would be relatively easy, the difficult part would be obtaining the actual parts as there are not many spares floating around.

RE: Recent Wing Damage A380

Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2011 7:00 am
by Chamonix
Latest:The damaged AF A380 will be out of action for 21 working days.
http://www.latribune.fr/entreprises-...arret-pour-l-a380-de-new-york.html

RE: Recent Wing Damage A380

Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2011 4:29 pm
by 1010101
Quoting fr8mech (Reply 6):
I know nothing about the A380, but on the types I've worked, you can see just about every area of the spar and the wing structure after opening panels and/or entering the fuel tank.

That makes sense in retrospect. What about damage that doesn't result in visible deformation? Are you given guidance about crucial parts of the structure that get more detailed examination? And is that harder to do with the newer composite materials?

RE: Recent Wing Damage A380

Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2011 9:11 pm
by notaxonrotax
Quoting Pihero (Reply 8):
The A380 left for CDG some 24 hours after the incident with some cosmetic repairs ( I presume);
It's been worked on at AF Industries at CDG.
Will be released the latest mid next week ( ???)

Huh? Am I misunderstanding something…………the article by Chamonix (reply 11) states she´s still in New York, no?

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RE: Recent Wing Damage A380

Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2011 9:23 pm
by fr8mech
Quoting 1010101 (Reply 12):
That makes sense in retrospect. What about damage that doesn't result in visible deformation? Are you given guidance about crucial parts of the structure that get more detailed examination? And is that harder to do with the newer composite materials?

I don't know much about structural composite components, so I won't comment.

Basically, Airbus (in this case), will provide detailed instructions as to the level of inspection to be performed on the structure. They will define access, allowable damage and how much of the structure should be inspected. The design engineers understand the load paths and should be able to determine how far into the wing structure the inmpact will have been felt. I'm guessing they are happy to have the video because it visually shows the mechanism of damage.

As for composite fairing, panels and other components: damage will be quantified and the part repaired or replaced.

RE: Recent Wing Damage A380

Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2011 9:57 pm
by Chamonix
Last October, another AF A380 had already been damaged after a collision with an AF A330.
Repair of composite materials damaged in the collision had been complicated and it took at least two weeks to fix.

RE: Recent Wing Damage A380

Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2011 10:57 pm
by Chamonix
Quoting notaxonrotax (Reply 13):
Huh? Am I misunderstanding something…………the article by Chamonix (reply 11) states she´s still in New York, no?

Indeed,I just did the rounds of all the French press and confirm that AF007 can not fly and is being attended to at JFK.

RE: Recent Wing Damage A380

Posted: Sat Apr 16, 2011 4:18 am
by notaxonrotax
In the other thread on Civ.Av they now say that she hasn´t left at all……….

I am officially confused…….and I have no problem admitting it!!

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RE: Recent Wing Damage A380

Posted: Sat Apr 16, 2011 12:13 pm
by Pihero
It's my fault : a duff info from one of my friends at engineering.
It was supposed to leave but apparently, both the NTSB and the BEA refused to release it;
It's now being examined at JFK for assessment of necessary repairs.
Owe you on this thread a beer at le Bourget. !

RE: Recent Wing Damage A380

Posted: Sat Apr 16, 2011 12:24 pm
by Chamonix
Is denting an aircraft on the ground career-ending?

RE: Recent Wing Damage A380

Posted: Sat Apr 16, 2011 2:14 pm
by Francoflier
Quoting Chamonix (Reply 19):
Is denting an aircraft on the ground career-ending?

I don't know about AF and their powerful pilot unions, but in other places, most likely, especially if it is found that the pilots were a bit careless. At the very least a severe long term demotion.

On the plus side, Airbus is rapidly building up quite a lot of experience on A380 on-the-field structural repairs...
 

RE: Recent Wing Damage A380

Posted: Sat Apr 16, 2011 3:54 pm
by 474218
Quoting francoflier (Reply 20):
On the plus side, Airbus is rapidly building up quite a lot of experience on A380 on-the-field structural repairs...


Unless Airbus operates differently than all the other OEM, Airbus's involvement in a repair such as this would be limited to supplying spares and/or approving the repair concept if a part can not be replaced. While Airbus my supply an on-site representative (a job I did for many years) the actual repair work is the responsibility of the owner/operator.

RE: Recent Wing Damage A380

Posted: Sat Apr 16, 2011 11:09 pm
by jetway879
The 380 involved is patiently sitting in a hangar at JFK having her cosmetic work done.
CRJ involved is nowhere to be found. I looked everywhere for it.

RE: Recent Wing Damage A380

Posted: Sun Apr 17, 2011 7:25 am
by Lufthansa411
Apparently the parts that AF need are being shipped to NY from Europe by barge because they are to big to fit in the cargo hold. Hopefully the ship gets to NY in a timely fashion

RE: Recent Wing Damage A380

Posted: Sun Apr 17, 2011 8:00 am
by Chamonix
From the start, concerns over the plane's size have been about apron and taxiway space, not runway space.
It requires no more runway for takeoff or landing than most other widebody jets but presents serious challenges when it comes to maneuvering around terminals and along congested taxiways.
It is only marginally longer or taller than the Boeing 747 but its wingspan is more than 60 feet wider.
Many taxiways are off-limits and A380 pilots need to be extra vigilant when operating at busy airports.
The same goes for ATC ground controllers
With relatively few A380s in service, controllers are still getting familiar with their requirements.

RE: Recent Wing Damage A380

Posted: Sun Apr 17, 2011 3:33 pm
by a380900
Quoting 474218 (Reply 21):

Unless Airbus operates differently than all the other OEM, Airbus's involvement in a repair such as this would be limited to supplying spares and/or approving the repair concept if a part can not be replaced.

Don't you think that Airbus is still watching meticulously over the A380 as a newborn and that they are still treating it as a special aircraft?

Quoting Lufthansa411 (Reply 23):
Apparently the parts that AF need are being shipped to NY from Europe by barge because they are to big to fit in the cargo hold.

Too big for an AN124? Are they changing the entire wing? It does not seem to make sense...

RE: Recent Wing Damage A380

Posted: Sun Apr 17, 2011 4:31 pm
by kanban
Quoting a380900 (Reply 25):
Are they changing the entire wing?

they haven't had enough time to manufacture an entire wing... looking at the wing picture http://www.faro.com/FaroIP/Files/Ima...mage%20Gallery/IG-PR-A380-wing.jpg

you'll notice the true wing box end... a wing tip box would be added to that ... that is probably what is being shipped...

this diagram shows the wing tip assembly starting at the end of the outboard slat.

http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/fl.../Airbus-A380-800-thumb-560x342.jpg

RE: Recent Wing Damage A380

Posted: Sun Apr 17, 2011 8:19 pm
by 474218
Quoting a380900 (Reply 25):
Don't you think that Airbus is still watching meticulously over the A380 as a newborn and that they are still treating it as a special aircraft?


Airbus has delivered close to 50 A380's, do they have staff to repair each and everyone that has a incident like this? Like I said Airbus would have on-site representatives to assist in getting the repairs approved and spares ordered but the actual responsibility for the repair lays with the owner/operator.

In this incident with Lufthansa-Technik being a huge player in the aircraft repair business, I doubt they would hire someone that is in competition with them to repair a Lufthansa aircraft. However, if the owner/operator chooses to utilize the Airbus factory repair team or anyone else, its their decision.

RE: Recent Wing Damage A380

Posted: Sun Apr 17, 2011 9:28 pm
by ba6590
Quoting 474218 (Reply 27):
In this incident with Lufthansa-Technik being a huge player in the aircraft repair business, I doubt they would hire someone that is in competition with them to repair a Lufthansa aircraft.

Last time I checked it was an AF plane and not Lufthansa.

RE: Recent Wing Damage A380

Posted: Sun Apr 17, 2011 9:44 pm
by Chamonix
http://www.afiklmem.com/AFIKLMEM/en/...dard/AboutAFIKLMEM/Facilities.html

AF do not have USA facilities so I just wonder who will be undertaking this massive repair job?
Lufthansa Technik USA or Airbus USA?

RE: Recent Wing Damage A380

Posted: Sun Apr 17, 2011 9:56 pm
by 474218
Quoting BA6590 (Reply 28):
Last time I checked it was an AF plane and not Lufthansa.


I knew that, just had a brain freeze. It doesn't change the fact that the damage repair is the responsibility of the owner/operator not Airbus.

RE: Recent Wing Damage A380

Posted: Sun Apr 17, 2011 10:03 pm
by ba6590
Quoting 474218 (Reply 30):
I knew that, just had a brain freeze

Sorry mate, I did get your point. Meant to put a smiley at the end of my statement.

RE: Recent Wing Damage A380

Posted: Sun Apr 17, 2011 11:18 pm
by KELPkid
Quoting Lufthansa411 (Reply 23):
Apparently the parts that AF need are being shipped to NY from Europe by barge because they are to big to fit in the cargo hold. Hopefully the ship gets to NY in a timely fashion

Should have hired the Dreamlifter   I can hear the laughs all the way from Everett right now...

RE: Recent Wing Damage A380

Posted: Mon Apr 18, 2011 12:19 am
by Skydrol
Quoting jetway879 (Reply 22):
CRJ involved is nowhere to be found. I looked everywhere for it.

It is cowering in a corner, petrified, after taking a beating from a big bully.



LD4

RE: Recent Wing Damage A380

Posted: Mon Apr 18, 2011 3:17 pm
by notaxonrotax
Quoting Pihero (Reply 18):
Owe you on this thread a beer at le Bourget. !

I am not known to decline a free beer, so be forewarned!!
I might just take up on that……..

Okay, repairs to be done locally then.
Would she be able to do a revenue flight to CDG upon completion, or are there any certification issues to be completed in France?

Quoting Skydrol (Reply 33):

It is cowering in a corner, petrified, after taking a beating from a big bully.

That´s understandable………..
But it´s been a few days now, nobody knows where she´s hiding?

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RE: Recent Wing Damage A380

Posted: Mon Apr 18, 2011 4:19 pm
by kanban
she could have been either repaired already, or had the AF metal removed and flown to a maintenance base..

RE: Recent Wing Damage A380

Posted: Mon Apr 18, 2011 5:28 pm
by nomadd22
Quoting Skydrol (Reply 33):
Quoting jetway879 (Reply 22):
CRJ involved is nowhere to be found. I looked everywhere for it.

It is cowering in a corner, petrified, after taking a beating from a big bully.


I don't know. When you tangle with someone 20 times your size and they come out looking as bad as you, I think they'd be bragging.

RE: Recent Wing Damage A380

Posted: Tue Apr 19, 2011 8:05 am
by speedygonzales
Quoting KELPkid (Reply 32):
Should have hired the Dreamlifter I can hear the laughs all the way from Everett right now...

The 747-LCF would be absolutely useless for the task, since it can't open the cargo door without specialized support vehicles only available at the airports it normally flies to.

RE: Recent Wing Damage A380

Posted: Tue Apr 19, 2011 12:00 pm
by nomadd22
Quoting speedygonzales (Reply 37):
Quoting KELPkid (Reply 32):
Should have hired the Dreamlifter I can hear the laughs all the way from Everett right now...

The 747-LCF would be absolutely useless for the task, since it can't open the cargo door without specialized support vehicles only available at the airports it normally flies to.

I'm pretty sure they have a procedure for generic equipment, like a huge forklift, to open the tail if needed.

RE: Recent Wing Damage A380

Posted: Tue Apr 19, 2011 3:13 pm
by kanban
I wonder if the barge shipping was accurate.. they may have barged the wing tip from the factory to the coast for a freighter to bring across however with proper packaging I think a 747F could handle it... does anybody run trans Atlantic barges????

[Edited 2011-04-19 08:14:03]

RE: Recent Wing Damage A380

Posted: Tue Apr 19, 2011 3:48 pm
by baroque
Quoting kanban (Reply 39):
does anybody run trans Atlantic barges????

It does begin to look as if Airbus might have to think of more adventurous policies of having major spares available. Two wings needed inside a year. Maybe it will never happen again, but so far, it does look as if repairs will be needed on those humongous wings.

RE: Recent Wing Damage A380

Posted: Tue Apr 19, 2011 5:44 pm
by kanban
Quoting Baroque (Reply 40):
Two wings needed inside a year.



I don't think they are re-winging either plane the outboard wingtip assembly was all that was damaged and it is a stand alone remove and replace installation, the size is the only obstacle...

Qantas is confusing but structurally it looks like upper and lower skin panels, a cut and splice front spar section and a partial rib (sometimes called an inspar rib)...

there are quite a few spare-ables also.. slats, actuators, ducting and hydraulic tube for Qantas, but maybe only a wiring harness for AF..