WestJetForLife
Topic Author
Posts: 704
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2005 3:37 am

Takeoff Thrust Application/abort: Your Company SOP

Mon May 16, 2011 4:15 am

Hello, everyone. Nik here again with yet ANOTHER question in regards to airline ops.

I have been watching various YouTube videos of takeoff operations from the flight deck of numerous airlines, from the Dash 8 to the Boeing 747-400. Watching these videos has piqued my curiosity.

Now, we all know that the pilot-in-command has the final say as to whether or not an aircraft's takeoff is aborted before V1. However, I have noticed that, in numerous videos, while the First Officer is in control of the aircraft, the Captain applies takeoff thrust and keeps his/her hand on the throttle levers until V1. In other cases, the First Officer (flying) has control of both the control column AND the throttle levers. In some cases even, I've seen the Captain set the thrust, take his hand off the throttle levers and let the First Officer hold onto the throttle levers until V1.

Here is what I would like to ask my 121/135/etc. pilots on the forum: what are YOUR company procedures in regards to setting of takeoff thrust or aborting the takeoff? Does the Captain ALWAYS set takeoff thrust, does the pilot flying set takeoff thrust, or is it a combination of both (First Officer is flying, Captain sets thrust, First Officer takes control of the throttle levers)?

Also, if your company SOPs state the F/O has throttle control on takeoff, does he retard the thrust levers if an abort is issued, or does the Captain take over and retard them for the F/O?

Thanks for your (hopeful) replies.

Nik
I need a drink.
 
Maverick623
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RE: Takeoff Thrust Application/abort: Your Company SOP

Mon May 16, 2011 5:01 am

Quoting WestJetForLife (Thread starter):
does the pilot flying set takeoff thrust

This is SOP at my airline (a 121 carrier), although since the majority of our aircraft are Airbus, setting takeoff thrust simply involves moving the throttles to either the FLEX or TOGA setting.

I think this is the procedure at every airline in the US, but I'm not 100% sure on that.

Quoting WestJetForLife (Thread starter):

Now, we all know that the pilot-in-command has the final say as to whether or not an aircraft's takeoff is aborted before V1.

Not true at all. The pilot flying will make the call to abort. The specifics of what to abort for at what speeds are in the FOM and are discussed specifically in the departure briefing.

Quoting WestJetForLife (Thread starter):
Also, if your company SOPs state the F/O has throttle control on takeoff, does he retard the thrust levers if an abort is issued, or does the Captain take over and retard them for the F/O?

I don't know of any airline that does this. It increases the amount of time (and therefore distance) it takes to stop the aircraft. Whoever controls the throttles, controls the throttles the whole way.
"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
 
WestJetForLife
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RE: Takeoff Thrust Application/abort: Your Company SOP

Mon May 16, 2011 5:10 am

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 1):

Not true at all. The pilot flying will make the call to abort. The specifics of what to abort for at what speeds are in the FOM and are discussed specifically in the departure briefing.

Interesting. I thought it was the PIC who made the go/no-go decision to abort?

Nik
I need a drink.
 
wilco737
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RE: Takeoff Thrust Application/abort: Your Company SOP

Mon May 16, 2011 5:12 am

Quoting WestJetForLife (Thread starter):
what are YOUR company procedures in regards to setting of takeoff thrust or aborting the takeoff?

At my airline the Captain is the only guy having the hands on the thrust levers during take off and is the only one who decides about the rejected take off. Of course I can suggest to abort it. but there is no time to discuss this decision.

wilco737
  
 
barney captain
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RE: Takeoff Thrust Application/abort: Your Company SOP

Mon May 16, 2011 6:17 am

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 1):
I don't know of any airline that does this.

Ours does.

Specifically; "The Captain will be the only one to abort the take-off".

PF - advances thrust levers and presses TOGA

PM - confirms/sets take-off thrust set

Captain - places hands on thrust levers until V1
Southeast Of Disorder
 
WestJetForLife
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RE: Takeoff Thrust Application/abort: Your Company SOP

Mon May 16, 2011 6:33 am

Quoting wilco737 (Reply 3):
At my airline the Captain is the only guy having the hands on the thrust levers during take off

I know LH does because of that 747-400 video on YouTube that has over 1 million views. I'd imagine most EU and English companies would stipulate the same, no?

Nik
I need a drink.
 
barney captain
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RE: Takeoff Thrust Application/abort: Your Company SOP

Mon May 16, 2011 6:57 am

Quoting WestJetForLife (Reply 5):
I'd imagine most EU and English companies would stipulate the same, no?

Yes.  
Southeast Of Disorder
 
XFSUgimpLB41X
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RE: Takeoff Thrust Application/abort: Your Company SOP

Mon May 16, 2011 6:59 am

at DL the PF sets power and the Captain assumes control of the throttles until V1.

If there is an abnormality that the FO notices, they call it out and it is the Captains call on the decision to abort. We have very specific high and low speed abort criteria making the judgement fairly simple.
Chicks dig winglets.
 
B747FE
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RE: Takeoff Thrust Application/abort: Your Company SOP

Mon May 16, 2011 8:43 am

PF set thrust - Captain control throttles until V1.
Whoever notices anything abnormal makes the call - Captain decides. Only.

Quoting XFSUgimpLB41X (Reply 7):
We have very specific high and low speed abort criteria making the judgement fairly simple.

  

Quoting wilco737 (Reply 3):
. Of course I can suggest to abort it. but there is no time to discuss this decision.

  

Regards,
B747FE.
"Flying is more than a sport and more than a job; flying is pure passion and desire, which fill a lifetime"
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: Takeoff Thrust Application/abort: Your Company SOP

Mon May 16, 2011 9:41 am

Ok so here's a hypothetical situation: If the F/O (PF or not) shouts "abort" (or whatever code word you use), and you're just seconds from V1, and the Captain doesn't see why, what is the correct decision? Or do we assume the Captain always sees what the F/O sees.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
tdscanuck
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RE: Takeoff Thrust Application/abort: Your Company SOP

Mon May 16, 2011 12:14 pm

Quoting WestJetForLife (Thread starter):
Here is what I would like to ask my 121/135/etc. pilots on the forum: what are YOUR company procedures in regards to setting of takeoff thrust or aborting the takeoff?

PF sets thrust and backs the throttles until V1.
PNF monitors.

Abort criteria are covered in the pre-takeoff briefing, either pilot could call it but only the PF will pull the throttles (because his/her hands are the ones on the throttles).

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 9):
Ok so here's a hypothetical situation: If the F/O (PF or not) shouts "abort" (or whatever code word you use), and you're just seconds from V1, and the Captain doesn't see why, what is the correct decision?

In our case, the correct decision would be to abort. But we always fly with two captains so the duties are a PF/PNF thing, not a rank thing.

Tom.
 
PGNCS
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RE: Takeoff Thrust Application/abort: Your Company SOP

Mon May 16, 2011 3:41 pm

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 9):
Ok so here's a hypothetical situation: If the F/O (PF or not) shouts "abort" (or whatever code word you use), and you're just seconds from V1, and the Captain doesn't see why, what is the correct decision? Or do we assume the Captain always sees what the F/O sees.

The FO never does that in our (or most) procedures. He states the problem and the captain decides. That's why the captain has his hand on the thrust levers.
 
CosmicCruiser
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RE: Takeoff Thrust Application/abort: Your Company SOP

Mon May 16, 2011 3:59 pm

Quoting WestJetForLife (Reply 2):
I thought it was the PIC who made the go/no-go decision to abort?
Quoting wilco737 (Reply 3):
At my airline the Captain is the only guy having the hands on the thrust levers during take off and is the only one who decides about the rejected take off

Same for us. Guys
 
PGNCS
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RE: Takeoff Thrust Application/abort: Your Company SOP

Mon May 16, 2011 4:33 pm

Quoting CosmicCruiser (Reply 12):
Quoting wilco737 (Reply 3):
At my airline the Captain is the only guy having the hands on the thrust levers during take off and is the only one who decides about the rejected take off

Same for us. Guys

And if my earlier post didn't make it clear, same for us, too.
 
David L
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RE: Takeoff Thrust Application/abort: Your Company SOP

Mon May 16, 2011 6:46 pm

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 9):
If the F/O (PF or not) shouts "abort" (or whatever code word you use), and you're just seconds from V1, and the Captain doesn't see why, what is the correct decision?

I see what you're getting at. Is the FO is supposed to call something more specific, such as "Fire!" or "Traffic!" or "Forgot the coffee!" rather than a general "Abort!"? That would still allow the PIC to decide instead of "obeying a command" from the FO.
 
PGNCS
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RE: Takeoff Thrust Application/abort: Your Company SOP

Mon May 16, 2011 6:51 pm

Quoting David L (Reply 14):
Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 9):
If the F/O (PF or not) shouts "abort" (or whatever code word you use), and you're just seconds from V1, and the Captain doesn't see why, what is the correct decision?

I see what you're getting at. Is the FO is supposed to call something more specific, such as "Fire!" or "Traffic!" or "Forgot the coffee!" rather than a general "Abort!"? That would still allow the PIC to decide instead of "obeying a command" from the FO.

Different airline procedures vary substantially, but typically, yes. The FO would call out the failure (e.g. "engine failure" or "engine fire") and the Captain would make the decision to abort or not. Most operators would not let an FO call for an abort, though there are exceptions to that generalization.
 
FlyMKG
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RE: Takeoff Thrust Application/abort: Your Company SOP

Mon May 16, 2011 7:57 pm

At my airline the PF advances the throttles and call for the power to be set. Then the flight engineer reaches up to set the power. Once the engineer calls power set the Captain places his hands on the throttles until V1. All crew members monitor the takeoff and can call abnormalities but it is the Captains decision to abort or not.

FlyMKG
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PGNCS
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RE: Takeoff Thrust Application/abort: Your Company SOP

Mon May 16, 2011 8:43 pm

Quoting FlyMKG (Reply 16):
At my airline the PF advances the throttles and call for the power to be set. Then the flight engineer reaches up to set the power. Once the engineer calls power set the Captain places his hands on the throttles until V1. All crew members monitor the takeoff and can call abnormalities but it is the Captains decision to abort or not.

FlyMKG has succinctly outlined how most three-person cockpits are run. It's a good description, and I have nothing to add other than wishing my L-1011 was back!  
 
sandrozrh
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RE: Takeoff Thrust Application/abort: Your Company SOP

Mon May 16, 2011 10:59 pm

Quoting wilco737 (Reply 3):

At my airline the Captain is the only guy having the hands on the thrust levers during take off and is the only one who decides about the rejected take off. Of course I can suggest to abort it. but there is no time to discuss this decision.

ditto.

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