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Northwest727
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Airlines Lowering Minimums With Saturated Market?

Thu Jun 30, 2011 9:55 pm

This boggles my mind a little bit...I noticed that many of the regional airlines have been dropping their hiring minimums recently, and word has it a person I know went to school with somebody that just got hired with only 400tt and 15 multi. MQ has dropped their minimums again, as has other airlines.

What makes me wonder is why do the regionals seem so desperate again (a la 2007), whereas unlike a few years ago, there are now thousands of furloughed pilots with thousands of hours sitting around unemployed...wouldn't you think this is still an employer's market, and the minimums be high?
 
JETPILOT
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RE: Airlines Lowering Minimums With Saturated Market?

Fri Jul 01, 2011 2:14 am

I don't believe someone got hired at a regional with 15 multi. You sure this guy isn't lying?
 
ThePinnacleKid
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RE: Airlines Lowering Minimums With Saturated Market?

Fri Jul 01, 2011 4:52 am

Because most furloughed "mainline" pilots aren't willing to go start at first year "regional" wages... they'll wait till they get called back to their "mainline" job and do something else in the meantime... The hiring pool for a mainline pilot job and a regional pilot job are not one in the same generally...
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Northwest727
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RE: Airlines Lowering Minimums With Saturated Market?

Fri Jul 01, 2011 9:40 am

Quoting jetpilot (Reply 1):
I don't believe someone got hired at a regional with 15 multi. You sure this guy isn't lying?

Not entirely sure. This guy himself has an interview scheduled for MQ, and he has been flying a King Air gig for only a few weeks now. Not much multi time with him.

Quoting ThePinnacleKid (Reply 2):
The hiring pool for a mainline pilot job and a regional pilot job are not one in the same generally...

Good point, makes sense. Mainline pilots I would imagine have families, and aren't willing to work crappy schedules at $18/hour, say $18,000/year for a regional, whereas they were making upper two digits/lower three digits before they were furloughed.

On that thought, why are the regionals experiencing some sort of shortage again? High washout, or have the mainline carriers just shifted more routes to their regional contractors, thus making the regionals desperate again?
 
lowrider
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RE: Airlines Lowering Minimums With Saturated Market?

Fri Jul 01, 2011 10:14 am

Quoting Northwest727 (Reply 3):
On that thought, why are the regionals experiencing some sort of shortage again?

My guess is to have adequate staffing in anticipation of pending flight and duty time rule changes. Also if there are any changes to qualification requirements, people already on property will likely be grandfathered in with a compliance interval.
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Goldenshield
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RE: Airlines Lowering Minimums With Saturated Market?

Fri Jul 01, 2011 12:14 pm

Quoting Northwest727 (Reply 3):
Good point, makes sense. Mainline pilots I would imagine have families, and aren't willing to work crappy schedules at $18/hour, say $18,000/year for a regional, whereas they were making upper two digits/lower three digits before they were furloughed.

I understand that a few airlines have a contractual clause that will ensure that their furloughed pilot get at least 4th year pay at the regional if the regional flies for said major. So, not $18K, but closer to $35K or more, depending on the payscale. Heck, I know of some guys that have been on furlough so long that they are captains again, earning high 2 digits again.
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FlyASAGuy2005
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RE: Airlines Lowering Minimums With Saturated Market?

Fri Jul 01, 2011 4:04 pm

Quoting jetpilot (Reply 1):
I don't believe someone got hired at a regional with 15 multi. You sure this guy isn't lying?

Ha! I've seen it. I know of several guys that got on with EV with under 30hrs multi. The catch/gold was that they had a lot of time in a CRJ full-motion sim as part of their training.

I remember way back when, when my brother was first hired on with ASA, minimum was somthing like 2500hrs TT plus multi and you had to pay for your initial training. Well up front you did but you were re-imbured at a later time. This was back in '97. Now 14 years later and Captain on the CR7/9, he's trained guys during initial line with 300 hours/50 multi and zero real world experience. Not knocking them, don't get me wrong. Just showing how much things have changed over the years.
What gets measured gets done.
 
JETPILOT
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RE: Airlines Lowering Minimums With Saturated Market?

Fri Jul 01, 2011 6:37 pm

I got an FO seat in a DC8 in 1997 with 310 TT and 100 multi. I know several guys like me hired at my airline and others with low time. But having only 15 hours of multi I have never heard of. Even if yo uare low time you still have to pass the same training everyone else has to. So if you get to fly the line they you earned it. Lots of guys get hired with low time and never make it to the line. They fail in the sim.

As far as the king Air... Isn't that a single pilot airplane? Woudn't you need a type rating to log PIC? I don't think you could find an insurance company to insure him. I'm not trying to be an @ss here. Just doesn't sound right.
 
DiamondFlyer
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RE: Airlines Lowering Minimums With Saturated Market?

Fri Jul 01, 2011 7:41 pm

Quoting jetpilot (Reply 7):
As far as the king Air... Isn't that a single pilot airplane? Woudn't you need a type rating to log PIC? I don't think you could find an insurance company to insure him. I'm not trying to be an @ss here. Just doesn't sound right.

Why would you need a type rating for a King air? Only the 350 has a MTOW over 12,500 pounds. Otherwise, the 90/100/200/250 are all under 12,500 and are turboprop. Only thing you need to fly those is a multiengine rating.

-DiamondFlyer
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bond007
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RE: Airlines Lowering Minimums With Saturated Market?

Fri Jul 01, 2011 7:55 pm

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 8):
Why would you need a type rating for a King air? Only the 350 has a MTOW over 12,500 pounds. Otherwise, the 90/100/200/250 are all under 12,500 and are turboprop. Only thing you need to fly those is a multiengine rating.

Yes, but no insurance company will cover you unless you have done the equivalent training as you would have done to be type-rated. But, agreed no actual type-rating required.


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JETPILOT
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RE: Airlines Lowering Minimums With Saturated Market?

Fri Jul 01, 2011 10:42 pm

We'll you answered your own question didn't you. The 350 has a MGTOW over 12.500 lbs. That's why you would need one.

So assuming the King air is other than the 350 there is no way he could get insurance coverage to fly a King Air with 15 multi time.

[Edited 2011-07-01 15:43:23]
 
Flighty
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RE: Airlines Lowering Minimums With Saturated Market?

Fri Jul 01, 2011 11:45 pm

Quoting Northwest727 (Thread starter):
whereas unlike a few years ago, there are now thousands of furloughed pilots with thousands of hours sitting around unemployed...wouldn't you think this is still an employer's market, and the minimums be high?

Huh? That's wrong... the legacies have been steady or grown since 2007. The pool of pilots heas steadily shrunk. There is your reason.

There is now no slack among unemployed pilots. We are in the stage when experienced baby boomers are retiring and brand new greenhorns are going to the regional FO jobs. The regionals will stay thirsty like this for at least 10 years.
 
DiamondFlyer
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RE: Airlines Lowering Minimums With Saturated Market?

Fri Jul 01, 2011 11:47 pm

Quoting jetpilot (Reply 10):
So assuming the King air is other than the 350 there is no way he could get insurance coverage to fly a King Air with 15 multi time.

And then you're assuming that the airplane has insurance coverage. There is no legal requirement to do so, so to suggest that either a type rating or model specific training would be required is incorrect.

-DiamondFlyer
From my cold, dead hands
 
JETPILOT
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RE: Airlines Lowering Minimums With Saturated Market?

Sat Jul 02, 2011 1:47 am

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 12):
And then you're assuming that the airplane has insurance coverage. There is no legal requirement to do so, so to suggest that either a type rating or model specific training would be required is incorrect.

-DiamondFlyer

The situation you're suggesting and consider plausible is that someone hired this individual with 15 hours of multi time with 400TT to fly their uninsured King Air around. Makes for a perfect argument because I know that's who I would hire to fly my uninsured King Air. I mean who REALLY needs insurance anyway. It's not like there may be a catastrophic accident with huge liabaility. Heck even if I don't fly the plane and leave it tied up on the ramp of the FBO it's not like it could possibly be damaged by a weather event or some other guy plowing into my parked King Air by some other guiys uninsured king air being flown by someone with 10 hours of multi time. Sounds plausible.
 
Northwest727
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RE: Airlines Lowering Minimums With Saturated Market?

Sat Jul 02, 2011 3:05 am

Guys, the person I know, the one who just got a King Air job, is not the one with 400tt and 15 multi, but somebody he knows.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 11):
Huh? That's wrong... the legacies have been steady or grown since 2007. The pool of pilots heas steadily shrunk. There is your reason.

Not sure where you are getting your info from, but APC suggests otherwise:

United: 1,437 furloughed http://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/airlines/legacy/united.html
American: 1,842 furloughed http://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/airlines/legacy/american.html
Alaska: 43 furloughed http://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/airlines/legacy/alaska.html
USAirways: 58 furloughed http://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/airlines/legacy/us_airways.html
UPS: 108 furloughed http://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/airlines/cargo/ups.html
USA3000: 76 furloughed http://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/a...s/major-national-lcc/usa_3000.html

The list goes on, as you can see.
 
DiamondFlyer
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RE: Airlines Lowering Minimums With Saturated Market?

Sat Jul 02, 2011 3:29 am

Quoting jetpilot (Reply 13):
The situation you're suggesting and consider plausible is that someone hired this individual with 15 hours of multi time with 400TT to fly their uninsured King Air around.

Look, I'm not saying its plausible, but possible. The way your first post came off, you made it sound as if it were illegal. Do things happen crazy like that, yes they do, but not often.

-DiamondFlyer
From my cold, dead hands
 
apodino
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RE: Airlines Lowering Minimums With Saturated Market?

Sat Jul 02, 2011 4:36 am

Quoting Northwest727 (Reply 3):
Good point, makes sense. Mainline pilots I would imagine have families, and aren't willing to work crappy schedules at $18/hour, say $18,000/year for a regional, whereas they were making upper two digits/lower three digits before they were furloughed.

On that thought, why are the regionals experiencing some sort of shortage again? High washout, or have the mainline carriers just shifted more routes to their regional contractors, thus making the regionals desperate again?

On point 1, most Airlines, regionals or not, will require you to give up your recall rights as a condition of employment. So if a United pilot on Furlough went to SkyWest, he would have to give up his recall rights at United. Why would anyone want to do that?

To point two, the airlines you listed a little further down may not be hiring, but guys like B6, NK, VX, and the Cargo carriers are hiring like crazy, and a lot of the regional pilots are ending up at these companies, which is creating a lot of attrition at the regional level, and causing the regionals to hire again. The other thing in play is the 1500 hr rule, which the regionals know is coming, so they want to get guys in the door before that take effect, otherwise the only way they can attract good people would be to raise pay, which in the end eliminates the whole point of the Major's outsourcing the flying in the first place.
 
Flighty
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RE: Airlines Lowering Minimums With Saturated Market?

Sat Jul 02, 2011 5:32 am

Quoting Northwest727 (Reply 14):
Not sure where you are getting your info from, but APC suggests otherwise:

Good to know. I guess I was just comparing to 2007.

Quoting apodino (Reply 16):
otherwise the only way they can attract good people would be to raise pay, which in the end eliminates the whole point of the Major's outsourcing the flying in the first place.

If regionals are not allowed to train these FOs on-the-job into experienced airline pilots, how can enough workers be trained to fill these jobs?

This safety thing is a nonissue anyway. Escaped cheetahs are a greater danger to the American public than RJ FOs at a greater or lesser minimum. This is emotional silly stuff.

[Edited 2011-07-01 22:35:17]
 
Northwest727
Topic Author
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RE: Airlines Lowering Minimums With Saturated Market?

Sat Jul 02, 2011 3:44 pm

Quoting apodino (Reply 16):

Wow...good information.

I do have a question however; how does a new employee give up his/her recall rights? Does the company they plan to fly for actually contact their previous employer, or does the pilot need to provide some kind of written statement on their cancellation of recall rights?
 
lowrider
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RE: Airlines Lowering Minimums With Saturated Market?

Sat Jul 02, 2011 7:40 pm

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 8):
Otherwise, the 90/100/200/250 are all under 12,500 and are turboprop. Only thing you need to fly those is a multiengine rating.

If the aircraft is operated on a 135 certificate, the ops specs may require 2 pilot ops, regardless of the aircraft weight.
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Mir
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RE: Airlines Lowering Minimums With Saturated Market?

Sat Jul 02, 2011 10:35 pm

Quoting lowrider (Reply 19):
If the aircraft is operated on a 135 certificate, the ops specs may require 2 pilot ops, regardless of the aircraft weight.

But you still might not need a type rating if the weight is below 12,500 or it's not a jet.

-Mir
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lowrider
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RE: Airlines Lowering Minimums With Saturated Market?

Sun Jul 03, 2011 8:44 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 20):
But you still might not need a type rating if the weight is below 12,500 or it's not a jet.

Correct, I was just trying to make the point that you could have a required SIC in an aircraft that does not require a type rating. Also regarding King Air types, I believe the 300 was over 12.5k and there are some people running around with King Air 200 types who flew the 14k version in the military.
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DashTrash
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RE: Airlines Lowering Minimums With Saturated Market?

Sun Jul 03, 2011 6:47 pm

Quoting Flighty (Reply 17):
If regionals are not allowed to train these FOs on-the-job into experienced airline pilots, how can enough workers be trained to fill these jobs?

Hire experienced pilots by raising pay and quality of life.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 17):
This safety thing is a nonissue anyway. Escaped cheetahs are a greater danger to the American public than RJ FOs at a greater or lesser minimum. This is emotional silly stuff.

Wrong.... Pinnacle 3701, Colgan 3407 prove you wrong. Weak FOs become weak captains when short upgrades are the norm.

Quoting Northwest727 (Reply 18):
I do have a question however; how does a new employee give up his/her recall rights? Does the company they plan to fly for actually contact their previous employer, or does the pilot need to provide some kind of written statement on their cancellation of recall rights?

If your new airline requires you to give up your recall at the carrier that furloughed you, the new airline generally has you sign a form letter that they send to your previous airline. It is up to the previous company to accept it or put it in the round file. Most of them go in the trash, but I know the bastards running NetJets right now accept them.
 
MD-90
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RE: Airlines Lowering Minimums With Saturated Market?

Sun Jul 03, 2011 7:53 pm

Quoting jetpilot (Reply 10):
So assuming the King air is other than the 350 there is no way he could get insurance coverage to fly a King Air with 15 multi time.

I don't know, an owner-pilot of a King Air (for example) might be able to get coverage with the stipulation that he act as SIC and have a licensed multi-rated pilot with plenty of experience as PIC.

Quoting DashTrash (Reply 22):
If your new airline requires you to give up your recall at the carrier that furloughed you, the new airline generally has you sign a form letter that they send to your previous airline. It is up to the previous company to accept it or put it in the round file. Most of them go in the trash, but I know the bastards running NetJets right now accept them.

I'm don't understand, why does it matter whether NetJets accepts them or not?
 
Flighty
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RE: Airlines Lowering Minimums With Saturated Market?

Sun Jul 03, 2011 8:25 pm

Quoting DashTrash (Reply 22):
Hire experienced pilots by raising pay and quality of life.

Sure I am not against upgrading the quality a little bit.

Quoting DashTrash (Reply 22):
Wrong.... Pinnacle 3701, Colgan 3407 prove you wrong. Weak FOs become weak captains when short upgrades are the norm.

Ya I was including those very memorable crashes in the result... commuter planes have about 1:20 million odds of crashing... very good odds. Actually, the safest sector in the airlines.

Widebodies are doing far worse in recent years. I am sure quality pilots improve the safety of passengers. But youth has its virtues just like old age. Are young pilots performing worse than old pilots... hmmm... the results seem unclear. Nothing jumping out at me, no pun intended.
 
JETPILOT
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RE: Airlines Lowering Minimums With Saturated Market?

Sun Jul 03, 2011 9:57 pm

Quoting Flighty (Reply 24):
I don't know, an owner-pilot of a King Air (for example) might be able to get coverage with the stipulation that he act as SIC and have a licensed multi-rated pilot with plenty of experience as PIC.

There is no SIC on a single pilot aircraft.
 
DashTrash
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RE: Airlines Lowering Minimums With Saturated Market?

Tue Jul 05, 2011 2:12 pm

Quoting Flighty (Reply 24):
Ya I was including those very memorable crashes in the result... commuter planes have about 1:20 million odds of crashing... very good odds. Actually, the safest sector in the airlines.

Every pilot is susceptible to screw ups, but with less in the experience bank, regionals as a whole are more susceptible. Especially in times of drastic hiring.

Quoting MD-90 (Reply 23):
I'm don't understand, why does it matter whether NetJets accepts them or not?

Just a job at a management team I despise.

Quoting jetpilot (Reply 25):
There is no SIC on a single pilot aircraft.

True, but some single pilot aircraft flown under 135 require an SIC. I flew for a company that flew some single pilot twin engine Cessnas under a waiver to fly with no autopilot. When the waiver expired and the FSDO wouldn't renew it, our single pilot airplanes became two pilot airplanes when flying live legs. You can also fly 10 hours with 2 pilots as opposed to 8 single pilot. That was a factor on a couple of flights, and was in the ops specs, so it made an SIC required.
 
bjorn14
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RE: Airlines Lowering Minimums With Saturated Market?

Tue Jul 05, 2011 3:15 pm

Are there any TT minimums for JAA/EASA hiring?
"I want to know the voice of God the rest is just details" --A. Einstein
 
pilotpip
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RE: Airlines Lowering Minimums With Saturated Market?

Tue Jul 05, 2011 4:33 pm

Quoting DashTrash (Reply 26):
Every pilot is susceptible to screw ups, but with less in the experience bank, regionals as a whole are more susceptible. Especially in times of drastic hiring.

Yet amazingly, in the time frame of those two crashes you referenced AA and CO destroyed as many airframes as the regionals. They were both extremely lucky in the respect that nobody died. Throw WN in there and the majors have more accidents. Then there's the DL plane that landed on the taxiway in ATL...

We're all prone to mistakes. Fatigue makes everybody do stupid things which is why the rules need to be changed. As of now it hasn't cost the airlines enough blood because it's still cheaper to lower minimums than it is to raise pay to attract better candidates.

My airline has had a pretty big washout rate for a number of reasons. The biggest is that they're taking people that have lots of hours but don't have any airline experience. Unfortunately many can't handle the pace of training and the level of automation.
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