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gr333
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Cessna 404 : Type Or Class Rating?

Mon Jul 04, 2011 3:08 pm

Hi,
I am just trying to figure out what is the Cessna 404 relevant of. Type or class rating ?
Anybody flying it or just being able to explain for this 11 seats capable airplane which certification we are talking about ?
I guess it's a MEP class airplane, but I want to be sure before thinking of buying one.
Thanks a lot !
 
bond007
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RE: Cessna 404 : Type Or Class Rating?

Tue Jul 05, 2011 5:13 am

If you were even remotely interested in buying one, you would know the answer!
Jimbo
I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
 
wn700driver
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RE: Cessna 404 : Type Or Class Rating?

Tue Jul 05, 2011 7:38 am

Quoting bond007 (Reply 1):
If you were even remotely interested in buying one, you would know the answer!
Jimbo

Maybe, but is that really a helpful answer?

I don't know about France all that well, but in the US you would need Multi-engine land plane on your PPL(C).

As a practical matter, you'll probably also need IFR rating, AND a Commercial endorsement, unless you plan on never using those other seats. As well your insurance company may REQUIRE those addt'l certs AND a visit to FlightSafety or a comparable company within the previous twelve months.

Count on it being expensive whatever you do, I'm almost positive JAA or EASA or whomever over in the EU will have very similar rules.
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jetstar
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RE: Cessna 404 : Type Or Class Rating?

Tue Jul 05, 2011 9:13 pm

Quoting wn700driver (Reply 2):
As a practical matter, you'll probably also need IFR rating, AND a Commercial endorsement, unless you plan on never using those other seats. As well your insurance company may REQUIRE those addt'l certs AND a visit to FlightSafety or a comparable company within the previous twelve months.

No really, as far as the FAR’s are concerned, legally all you need is a private pilots license with a multi engine land rating, you would be limited to VFR only, but you can carry passengers as long as it was not for compensation or hire.

As far as getting insurance, that’s another story, but there is no federal law that requires any airplane operator to carry insurance, unlike state laws for motor vehicles.

With a lot of airplane owners today registering their airplanes to LLC’s formed specifically for their airplanes to reduce their liability exposure, I wouldn’t be surprised if these LLC’s did not carry liability insurance, just hull insurance for damages.

JetStar
 
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SXI899
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RE: Cessna 404 : Type Or Class Rating?

Tue Jul 05, 2011 10:03 pm

As far as I can tell, the 404 falls under the MEP(Land) class rating:

http://www.easa.europa.eu/certificat...-list-licence-endorsement-list.php
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KELPkid
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RE: Cessna 404 : Type Or Class Rating?

Tue Jul 05, 2011 11:48 pm

>12,500 Lbs MTOW, so no type rating required (under US FAR's). A standard multi-engine license would cover you legally for flying the aircraft.

Quoting jetstar (Reply 3):
As far as getting insurance, that’s another story, but there is no federal law that requires any airplane operator to carry insurance, unlike state laws for motor vehicles.

With a lot of airplane owners today registering their airplanes to LLC’s formed specifically for their airplanes to reduce their liability exposure, I wouldn’t be surprised if these LLC’s did not carry liability insurance, just hull insurance for damages.

If you are a low time, VFR-only pilot, good luck getting insurance in a 404  Unless you are really really rich (and are willing to pay some outrageous sums of money on policy premiums)...you do fall into (statistically) one of the highest risk categories for aircraft insurance.
Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
 
dw747400
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RE: Cessna 404 : Type Or Class Rating?

Wed Jul 06, 2011 10:00 am

Quoting jetstar (Reply 3):

As far as getting insurance, that’s another story, but there is no federal law that requires any airplane operator to carry insurance, unlike state laws for motor vehicles.

Many states do require liability for aircraft registered and/or based in that state.
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SEPilot
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RE: Cessna 404 : Type Or Class Rating?

Wed Jul 06, 2011 1:25 pm

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 5):
If you are a low time, VFR-only pilot, good luck getting insurance in a 404 Unless you are really really rich (and are willing to pay some outrageous sums of money on policy premiums)...you do fall into (statistically) one of the highest risk categories for aircraft insurance.

Insurance companies are far more strict than the FAR's as far as determining who can fly what. AFAIK, if you do not have substantial complex hours AND an instrument rating no insurance company will even talk to you about a twin, especially a pressurized one. When I had my 182 and got a new partner, they wanted him to do 25 hours with an instructor before he could fly passengers, even though he had (I think) about 300 hours (he had owned a 152 before) even though my insurance policy would allow anyone to fly the plane (with my permission) who was qualified.

Quoting dw747400 (Reply 6):
Many states do require liability for aircraft registered and/or based in that state.

Far fewer than you might realize. Canada does, and Mexico is very strict about it (you have to have insurance from a Mexican company), but I do not know of any states that do. It is not like cars; and the couple who ran the airport before I took it over had planes that they did not insure, and flew them all over in the US.
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Fly2HMO
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RE: Cessna 404 : Type Or Class Rating?

Sun Jul 10, 2011 1:56 pm

You generally don't need a type rating for anything that is under 12500 lbs MGTOW and not turbojet/turbofan powered in the US. Elsewhere though there are some countries that need type ratings for every airplane out there, including a C172.


Speaking of which...

Quoting gr333 (Thread starter):
but I want to be sure before thinking of buying one.
What An Airplane To Choose? (by Artem999 Jun 18 2011 in Tech Ops)

Coincidence?  
 
bj87
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RE: Cessna 404 : Type Or Class Rating?

Sun Jul 10, 2011 5:36 pm

Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 8):
Coincidence?

I was wondering the same. Welcome back by the way!

Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 8):
You generally don't need a type rating for anything that is under 12500 lbs MGTOW and not turbojet/turbofan powered in the US.

Is this also the case if the aircraft is used for commercial operations? I saw a Phenom 100 the other day which is single pilot certified yet is still had a two man crew.
 
dw747400
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RE: Cessna 404 : Type Or Class Rating?

Sun Jul 10, 2011 5:53 pm

Quoting bj87 (Reply 9):
I saw a Phenom 100 the other day which is single pilot certified yet is still had a two man crew.

Per FAA regs, the Phenom 100 needs a type certificate as it is a jet aircraft (regs reference turbojet to be specific, but the rule applies to turbofans as well).

On the citations, single pilot ops require a single pilot type rating. Not sure on the Phenoms. Most commercial ops use two crew on VLJs. This may be due to their operating specifications, insurance requirements, or just to appease passengers. A low time pilot in the right seat is dirt cheap--often less than the added insurance cost of operating single pilot.

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 7):
Far fewer than you might realize

Of the nine I've had reason to investigate liability insurance in, five have required it. I suppose as this could be a statistical anomaly it might be more correct to say several than many.
CFI--Certfied Freakin Idiot
 
Fly2HMO
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RE: Cessna 404 : Type Or Class Rating?

Sun Jul 10, 2011 6:09 pm

Quoting bj87 (Reply 9):

Is this also the case if the aircraft is used for commercial operations?

Yes. Look at Cape Air in the eastern US. They fly twin cessnas single pilot, with no type rating.

HOWEVER.....

Quoting bj87 (Reply 9):
I saw a Phenom 100 the other day which is single pilot certified yet is still had a two man crew.

Blame insurance for that. While pretty much every modern small part 23 light jet out there is single pilot certified, the insurance companies mandate they be flown with a crew of two.

As SEPilot said:

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 7):

Insurance companies are far more strict than the FAR's as far as determining who can fly what.


Quoting dw747400 (Reply 10):
On the citations, single pilot ops require a single pilot type rating. Not sure on the Phenoms.

As for the Citations IIRC that would only apply to earlier models, most of which were certified under part 25 (transport category), which requires a crew of two per default AFAIK. IE this would apply to an older Citation I/II/Bravo etc. But the newer CJs 1/2/34 are certified under part 23 and can be flow single pilot without a special single pilot rating. The Phenom is a part 23 plane as well so I would assume its the same situation with the newer Citation CJs.

[Edited 2011-07-10 11:16:38]

[Edited 2011-07-10 11:16:52]

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