Moderators: richierich, ua900, hOMSaR

 
nema
Topic Author
Posts: 483
Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2006 3:18 am

Aircraft Over Fuelled In Error

Sat Dec 31, 2011 8:48 am

Just had an hours delay waiting for an inbound flight with Thomsons (TOM517) and when we eventually boarded the 737 aircraft the Captain explained the reason for their late arrival...

Apparently due to an instrument fault at EMA, when fuel was being loaded, too much was pumped in which then made the aircraft illegal to fly. He went on to say that, with there being no way to unload the surplus fuel, they had to wait around 45 minutes to burn off the surplus, hence the delay.

This is a new one on me but i wonder how this might happen. An instrument fault didn't really offer enough detail to understand how this actually happened, but it must have been costly for someone. Assuming the information as to how much fuel is being loaded is known by the fuel tanker operator as well as the crew, so at least one end of the operation gets it right unless a significant mis calculation was done which surely could have been noticed.
There isnt really a dark side to the moon, as a matter of fact its all dark!
 
Dogbreath
Posts: 206
Joined: Fri Mar 28, 2008 8:49 am

RE: Aircraft Over Fuelled In Error

Sat Dec 31, 2011 9:25 am

Nothing sinister here.

Fuel gauges can and will always fail, requiring the use of alternate procedures to refuel the aircraft (as approved by the MEL). Also sometimes the refuelling gauge on the wing is defective whilst the flight deck gauge is serviceable, and the refueller may overfuel the aircraft if unsupervised. I don't work for Thomson or know there SOP's, so have no idea how they refuel their aircraft. But in my airline the fuel figure is passed to the refueller via Operations, and the refuelling takes place before we even arrive at the aircraft. If a fuel gauge is MEL'd inop, the refueller will wait until we arrive, or a maintenance engineer will oversee the refuelling so that the correct amount of fuel is loaded.

Whatever the reason for the overfuelling in your case it's obviously an oversight (or error) by someone and the flight crew did the correct actions to prevent an overweight departure.
Truth, Honour, Loyalty
 
nema
Topic Author
Posts: 483
Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2006 3:18 am

RE: Aircraft Over Fuelled In Error

Sat Dec 31, 2011 9:54 am

Quoting dogbreath (Reply 1):
Whatever the reason for the overfuelling in your case it's obviously an oversight (or error) by someone and the flight crew did the correct actions to prevent an overweight departure.

Thanks for that, i guess to avoid any alarm, the 45 minute burn off would have just been a steady engine run, would be interesting to know how much fuel that would be though.
There isnt really a dark side to the moon, as a matter of fact its all dark!
 
antonovman
Posts: 426
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2001 12:45 pm

RE: Aircraft Over Fuelled In Error

Sat Dec 31, 2011 10:12 am

Expensive mistake. A few times I have come across this and we were always told that there was no empty fuel truck to defuel the a/c. If it had been done it apparently can only be used again by same operator.
The only time it worked for us was in the USA and it seemed to be routine there
 
ykaops
Posts: 66
Joined: Fri Nov 19, 2010 1:53 am

RE: Aircraft Over Fuelled In Error

Sat Dec 31, 2011 10:45 am

Quoting nema (Thread starter):
made the aircraft illegal to fly.

Umm , dunno about illegal, overweight I'm sure, but not illegal. The airline generally would BUMP bags and , god forbid, passengers to bring the aircraft within operational weights if they really wanted too.

That being said... it would be in the neighbourhood of 4000lbs or 2250 litres of fuel that had to be burned off on your particular flight for a 737-300/400/500 or as little as 3500lbs or 1967litres for the NG models.
Some fuelling operations do have the ability to defuel an aircraft, but it would have taken as long, if not longer!

In your particular instance TOM opted to do something to make sure everyone was accomodated with the least impact on operations and customer satisfaction.
 
BMI727
Posts: 11300
Joined: Mon Feb 02, 2009 9:29 pm

RE: Aircraft Over Fuelled In Error

Sat Dec 31, 2011 11:34 am

Quoting antonovman (Reply 3):
A few times I have come across this and we were always told that there was no empty fuel truck to defuel the a/c.

How would that process work at airports that have the underground tank system? Can the pump rigs put fuel back into the ground? Would that even be allowed, or would they have to put it into a tanker?
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
BestWestern
Posts: 8349
Joined: Fri Sep 08, 2000 8:46 pm

RE: Aircraft Over Fuelled In Error

Sat Dec 31, 2011 11:42 am

Quoting ykaops (Reply 4):

With the least impact on operations and customer satisfaction.

Lets not worry about the environment....
Greetings from Hong Kong.... a subsidiary of China Inc.
 
AA737-823
Posts: 5492
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2000 11:10 am

RE: Aircraft Over Fuelled In Error

Sat Dec 31, 2011 12:02 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 5):
How would that process work at airports that have the underground tank system? Can the pump rigs put fuel back into the ground? Would that even be allowed, or would they have to put it into a tanker?

It's a nightmare. You cannot put fuel back into the hydrant system, no...
And, as someone else already mentioned, fuel that comes off of a plane cannot be put into another plane- at least, it belongs to THAT specific airline. It's a real headache.
All that AND there typically aren't any empty fuel trucks driving around.

I've been in this situation as a mechanic, who was supervising the fueling process for Heavies at the time. It's a very, very ugly situation to find yourself in, because all of a sudden, your plane can't fly, and no one really wants to help you with the problem. At all.
 
antonovman
Posts: 426
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2001 12:45 pm

RE: Aircraft Over Fuelled In Error

Sat Dec 31, 2011 2:30 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 5):
And, as someone else already mentioned, fuel that comes off of a plane cannot be put into another plane- at least, it belongs to THAT specific airline. It's a real headache.
All that AND there typically aren't any empty fuel trucks driving around.

Thats right, its classed as being "contaminated fuel" then.
So how did you get yourself out of the mess ? run ? LOL
 
User avatar
jetfuel
Posts: 1078
Joined: Tue Jan 11, 2005 10:27 pm

RE: Aircraft Over Fuelled In Error

Sat Dec 31, 2011 2:42 pm

Hard to grasp but they may well have sat and burnt up $2000 worth of fuel rather than bump pax off the plane. Expensive stuff up
Where's the passion gone out of the airline industry? The smell of jetfuel and the romance of taking a flight....
 
grimey
Posts: 309
Joined: Tue Jun 07, 2005 2:48 am

RE: Aircraft Over Fuelled In Error

Sat Dec 31, 2011 5:49 pm

I was told before that if your ever going to take off overweight make sure that its overweight with fuel and the only time your carrying too much fuel is when your aircraft is on fire.

Look on another bright side at least you didn't take off with less fuel then what was actually needed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gimli_Glider

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuninter_Flight_1153

A simple thing of not using the correct conversions or the wrong part being installed can easily lead to miscalculation of fuel.
 
AAMDanny
Posts: 310
Joined: Wed Apr 30, 2008 4:06 pm

RE: Aircraft Over Fuelled In Error

Sat Dec 31, 2011 6:05 pm

Simular thing happened in MBJ to a VS 747 & a BA 777.

The Fueling truck's pump was faulty and was giving erratic readings, so a manual fuel count of each of the aircrafts fuel tankes had too be carried out, although the aircrafts tanks showed the correct ammount of fuel loaded you need two lot's of verification that it is correct (normally one from the fuel loader and one from the aircraft)

I've also seen a TCX 757 once at BHX have to do a simular thing when too much was loaded for a SSH sector and spent 40 minutes burning off th eexcess fuel as it was the quickest option, you also have too remember other factors such as crew hours and logistics of unloading pax, getting new crews and replacement aircraft etc, sometimes just literally burning it off is the quickest option.
 
tdscanuck
Posts: 8572
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2006 7:25 am

RE: Aircraft Over Fuelled In Error

Sat Dec 31, 2011 6:10 pm

Quoting nema (Thread starter):
This is a new one on me but i wonder how this might happen.

Many aircraft, including most models of 737, use automatic fulling shutoff. You program the fuel panel with how much fuel you want and the valves will close automatically when the indicator has the correct quantity in the tank. This is particularly helpful for large aircraft with complex fuel systems so that the fueler doesn't have to think as hard about how much fuel is in each tank, just on getting the right total.

If one of the indicators (or a downstream component like a tank sensor) goes bad the valves may not shut at the right time. If the quantity was close, like it sounds like it was in this case, you probably wouldn't notice until the fueler cross-checked the final uplift from the truck against what the aircraft says it has.

Quoting antonovman (Reply 3):
A few times I have come across this and we were always told that there was no empty fuel truck to defuel the a/c. If it had been done it apparently can only be used again by same operator.

Yes. Normally no other airline will accept the liability of using it and no fueler will accept the liability of retesting it to put it back into their system for general use. It is a serious pain in the rear.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 5):
How would that process work at airports that have the underground tank system? Can the pump rigs put fuel back into the ground? Would that even be allowed, or would they have to put it into a tanker?

You have to pump it into a truck, which you are now the proud owner of until you pay the fueler to dispose of it or you come back to pick it up. In theory, if it was a really huge load (e.g. a full jumbo) you could flow it back through the piping to a dedicated storage tank but there aren't many airports with hydrant fueling that will want to dedicate an entire tank just to you.

This isn't such a big deal at many smaller airports where they like the revenue they get from renting fuel storage space to you, but anything of any size needs all their trucks a lot more than they want the incremental revenue of tying one up as temporary storage. And, as an operator, it's way more inconvenient because you now have to coordinate to make sure you get that specific truck when you come to pick up, as opposed to whatever's available.

Tom.
 
ikramerica
Posts: 15080
Joined: Mon May 23, 2005 9:33 am

RE: Aircraft Over Fuelled In Error

Sat Dec 31, 2011 6:10 pm

Quoting dogbreath (Reply 1):
Whatever the reason for the overfuelling in your case it's obviously an oversight (or error) by someone and the flight crew did the correct actions to prevent an overweight departure.

It's not obviously and oversight or error if the gauge failed during the fill, is it? How is one to know? Until the flight crew checks as they do pre-flight and see they are overfull, all might seem fine if the wing gauge failed on that day.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
User avatar
intsim
Posts: 92
Joined: Sat Nov 13, 2010 4:54 am

RE: Aircraft Over Fuelled In Error

Sat Dec 31, 2011 6:40 pm

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 13):
It's not obviously and oversight or error if the gauge failed during the fill, is it? How is one to know? Until the flight crew checks as they do pre-flight and see they are overfull, all might seem fine if the wing gauge failed on that day.
Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 12):
Many aircraft, including most models of 737, use automatic fulling shutoff. You program the fuel panel with how much fuel you want and the valves will close automatically when the indicator has the correct quantity in the tank. This is particularly helpful for large aircraft with complex fuel systems so that the fueler doesn't have to think as hard about how much fuel is in each tank, just on getting the right total.

If one of the indicators (or a downstream component like a tank sensor) goes bad the valves may not shut at the right time. If the quantity was close, like it sounds like it was in this case, you probably wouldn't notice until the fueler cross-checked the final uplift from the truck against what the aircraft says it has.

I am embarrassed to say I was the final nail of a human overfill error. Luckily it turned out well, it was on a Metro III. I was a green rampy 'helping' a fueler relay info when filling the other wing. I thought the little box on the meter meant 1/10s...nope it means gallons. The pumping went to like 124 gallons before the fueler halted to see what was going on. The flight crew was pretty pissed. Luckily they worked it out and the fuel could be tankered.
 
ferminbrif
Posts: 116
Joined: Sat Dec 18, 2010 7:04 pm

RE: Aircraft Over Fuelled In Error

Sat Dec 31, 2011 7:13 pm

Quoting dogbreath (Reply 1):
Nothing sinister here.

Fuel gauges can and will always fail


I agree but how can a plane with such a failure being allowed to take off.....????? what would happens if the failure indicates much more fuel than you got in the tank???
 
yyzala
Posts: 76
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 4:43 pm

RE: Aircraft Over Fuelled In Error

Sat Dec 31, 2011 7:29 pm

Interesting responses, but surely it is not the operator's fault but rather the contractor (in this situation). As such they either need to find an empty truck to store that fuel or compensate for the extra fuel loaded and associated headaches to the operator....
 
LimaFoxTango
Posts: 947
Joined: Wed Jun 16, 2004 11:33 pm

RE: Aircraft Over Fuelled In Error

Sat Dec 31, 2011 7:54 pm

Quoting YYZALA (Reply 16):
Interesting responses, but surely it is not the operator's fault but rather the contractor (in this situation). As such they either need to find an empty truck to store that fuel or compensate for the extra fuel loaded and associated headaches to the operator....

You might be surprised to know that in some contracts between airline and fuel provider, the airline takes responsibility if the fuel provider accidentally (or deliberately for that matter) over fuels an aircraft. An expensive mistake yes, but the airline agrees to accept the liability. Most fuel providers do not defuel aircraft because 1. its considered contaminated fuel and thus cannot be placed in another aircraft, and 2. some fuel providers just don't have anywhere to put it.
You are said to be a good pilot when your take-off's equal your landings.
 
tdscanuck
Posts: 8572
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2006 7:25 am

RE: Aircraft Over Fuelled In Error

Sat Dec 31, 2011 8:33 pm

Quoting ferminbrif (Reply 15):

I agree but how can a plane with such a failure being allowed to take off.....?????

Most modern jets have the fuel quantity indication system on the minimum equipment list...you can have the entire system failed and it's OK to takeoff as long as the fuel quantity has been verified by other methods (often the dripsticks on the underside of the tank).

Quoting ferminbrif (Reply 15):
what would happens if the failure indicates much more fuel than you got in the tank???

You repeat the Gimli Glider accident.

Quoting YYZALA (Reply 16):
Interesting responses, but surely it is not the operator's fault but rather the contractor (in this situation).

The contractor has no control of the aircraft's fuel indication and fueling system; you can't hold them responsible for failures of the aircraft hardware, which is the most common cause of this type of problem.

Tom.
 
Jpax
Posts: 715
Joined: Sat Aug 05, 2006 5:01 am

RE: Aircraft Over Fuelled In Error

Sat Dec 31, 2011 9:50 pm

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 18):
you can't hold them responsible for failures of the aircraft hardware, which is the most common cause of this type of problem.

I entirely disagree. I've been over fueled quite a few times and not once was it hardware failure. It was all miscommunication, poor fueling practices, rushing, being cold, not paying attention, or any other human screw up. This goes for small FBOs in the middle of nowhere, to a 121 carrier aircraft being fueled at a major airport. And, of course, WHEN they screw up, it takes an hour to get the defueling equipment over, if even available, delaying the flight for no mistake of our own. In addition, I've never heard of any other of our pilots being overfueled due to faulty hardware. I'm sure it's happened, but its almost exclusively human error. The fuelers can be and ARE held responsible every single time.
 
nomadd22
Posts: 1570
Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2008 7:42 pm

RE: Aircraft Over Fuelled In Error

Sat Dec 31, 2011 11:30 pm

We had a few fuel mixups at Hobbs that resulted in unusable fuel. The Fire department was glad to take it as a donation to their training program. The USAF converted a couple of pistons to turbines once without changing the labels. 250 gallons of gas/jet mix wasn't good for much else.
Anon
 
dxing
Posts: 5859
Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2008 5:14 pm

RE: Aircraft Over Fuelled In Error

Sun Jan 01, 2012 3:30 am

Quoting nema (Thread starter):
Apparently due to an instrument fault at EMA, when fuel was being loaded, too much was pumped in which then made the aircraft illegal to fly. He went on to say that, with there being no way to unload the surplus fuel, they had to wait around 45 minutes to burn off the surplus, hence the delay.

I suspect the instrument fault was the fuelers head space timing gear. I've seen it happen plenty of times. Unless the aircraft was over take off weight, which pretty much limits you to defueling, and a lot of smaller airports can pump it but can't suck it (clear your filthy minds!), or deplaning pax, bags, cargo. The option they chose, to burn it off would be least desireable in most circumstances so I'm wondering what the limitation was. It must have been a take off weight deal as if it were en-route or landing you could just plan a longer-lower-faster route/speed to burn off the excess. Done that plenty of times.

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 12):
Many aircraft, including most models of 737, use automatic fulling shutoff.

Hmmm, I've fueled my share of B37-57-67-77 aircraft and it's always fill the wings, rest in the center tank. There's a couple of reasons for that one being that if the center fuel tank pumps go inop all that fuel has to be counted as part of the planes zero fuel weight which can put a nice ding on payload performance. The only think the auto shutoff really did for me was keep me from spraying fuel out the vent and all over the ramp. I've seen that happen on an MD80 and thankfully it wasn't me fueling.

Quoting intsim (Reply 14):
The flight crew was pretty pissed. Luckily they worked it out and the fuel could be tankered.

I'm surprised to hear this as I have never had a capt call and say "Hey they gave us too much gas, we can take it but we want it taken off!".

Quoting nomadd22 (Reply 20):
The Fire department was glad to take it as a donation to their training program.

I've heard of this happening before as well. In addition if the fueler has a spare truck they keep just for defueling, most hub operators do, and they also service the ground equipment and it is diesel, then there's your gas station for the next few days.
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, a road that goes forever, I'm going to Texas!
 
tdscanuck
Posts: 8572
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2006 7:25 am

RE: Aircraft Over Fuelled In Error

Sun Jan 01, 2012 4:39 am

Quoting dxing (Reply 21):

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 12):
Many aircraft, including most models of 737, use automatic fulling shutoff.

Hmmm, I've fueled my share of B37-57-67-77 aircraft and it's always fill the wings, rest in the center tank.

That's normal for three-tank twins. You want to keep weight in the wings as long as you can to get maximum benefit out of the relieving stress on the wings (better fatigue life). It's more complex for something like a 747 (7 or 8 tanks) or an A380 (12 tanks, I think).

Quoting dxing (Reply 21):
The only think the auto shutoff really did for me was keep me from spraying fuel out the vent and all over the ramp

If it's working properly and in use, it should also prevent you from filling the center above the target quantity. The thing protecting the main tanks from overflow is the volumetric topoff switch, which is a different function (and different sensor) than the automatic quantity shutoff.

Tom.
 
dxing
Posts: 5859
Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2008 5:14 pm

RE: Aircraft Over Fuelled In Error

Sun Jan 01, 2012 8:37 am

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 22):
It's more complex for something like a 747 (7 or 8 tanks) or an A380 (12 tanks, I think).

The reason I didn't list them. Same thing on a ER1J45XR, they are the only ones in that series that have a center tank. You had to be careful not to overfuel them as they were even more weight critical than the larger jets. Then you have the B19's with the aux tanks.

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 22):
If it's working properly and in use, it should also prevent you from filling the center above the target quantity.

In reality if you try and pump all three at once for some reason it bogs every thing down. I used to close the center tank and do the wings first opening the center tank as the wings neared full to keep the flow going. Usually I would open and close the 2 wing tanks independently for the last 500 pounds or so while letting the center tank run. Only did a few 747's and you are correct, they are more complicated and require too much brain power on a cold or cold and rainy night.
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, a road that goes forever, I'm going to Texas!
 
troubleshooter
Posts: 420
Joined: Mon Feb 07, 2005 5:22 am

RE: Aircraft Over Fuelled In Error

Sun Jan 01, 2012 12:44 pm

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 12):
Many aircraft, including most models of 737, use automatic fulling shutoff. You program the fuel panel with how much fuel you want and the valves will close automatically when the indicator has the correct quantity in the tank. This is particularly helpful for large aircraft with complex fuel systems so that the fueler doesn't have to think as hard about how much fuel is in each tank, just on getting the right total.

Never seen that function on the B737 I´ve been working on. Must be optional. The only auto shut-off function in the B737 fuel system I know is the volumetric shut-off, which closes the fuel valve if the related tank is full to prevent an overflow situation.

I´ve worked on B757/767 - they had a fuel quantity pre-selction installed. A320´s as well.
This job sucks!!! I love this job!!!
 
Mender
Posts: 249
Joined: Wed Feb 04, 2004 9:36 am

RE: Aircraft Over Fuelled In Error

Sun Jan 01, 2012 4:21 pm

What I'm about to say my not have happened in this case but I've known the pre-selected fuel quantity to go blank due to a power transfer glitch when the crew switched between ground power and the APU because the fuel bowser driver did not flick the battery switch on the fuelling panel to on. In the above case there was nothing wrong with the aircraft, it was a proceedural error of the fuel bowser driver but it caused an overfill.

Also I've been told by flight crew that it's very difficult to get the weight and balance right on the 737-800 if there is a very low number of passengers, say 20 or 30. Maybe someone can clarify what this means in real terms
 
tdscanuck
Posts: 8572
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2006 7:25 am

RE: Aircraft Over Fuelled In Error

Sun Jan 01, 2012 4:48 pm

Quoting troubleshooter (Reply 24):

Never seen that function on the B737 I´ve been working on. Must be optional.

It was optional on the 737-300/400/500 (they had multiple FQIS supplier options). The 737NG has only one FQIS system but the quantity selectors on the refuel panel are optional.

Tom.
 
troubleshooter
Posts: 420
Joined: Mon Feb 07, 2005 5:22 am

RE: Aircraft Over Fuelled In Error

Sun Jan 01, 2012 5:55 pm

Quoting Mender (Reply 25):
What I'm about to say my not have happened in this case but I've known the pre-selected fuel quantity to go blank due to a power transfer glitch when the crew switched between ground power and the APU because the fuel bowser driver did not flick the battery switch on the fuelling panel to on.

It´s always a good practice to select power for refueling from the batteries.
This job sucks!!! I love this job!!!
 
Dogbreath
Posts: 206
Joined: Fri Mar 28, 2008 8:49 am

RE: Aircraft Over Fuelled In Error

Sun Jan 01, 2012 6:15 pm

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 13):
It's not obviously and oversight or error if the gauge failed during the fill, is it? How is one to know? Until the flight crew checks as they do pre-flight and see they are overfull, all might seem fine if the wing gauge failed on that day.
Quoting ferminbrif (Reply 15):
I agree but how can a plane with such a failure being allowed to take off.....????? what would happens if the failure indicates much more fuel than you got in the tank???

Refuelling an aircraft is not just simply just filling up the tanks and relying solely on the fuel quantity indicating system. On every flight (regardless of the serviceability of the gauges), you must crosscheck that the required amount is loaded by deducting the amount of fuel onboard from the previous flight - from the amount of fuel required to be uplifted, then calculating the SG of the fuel to a litres value (in Europe anyway). The amount of fuel uplifted in litres from the tanker (or underground refueling station) is then recalculated back to kgs (or lbs) and must be within a certain tolerance to the amount of fuel required. If there's an error in the system, it will be determined here and then further investigation taken. All tanks on the B737 have dipsticks at various locations in each tank and these can also be used (if required) to determine the quantity of the fuel tank/s.
Truth, Honour, Loyalty
 
User avatar
intsim
Posts: 92
Joined: Sat Nov 13, 2010 4:54 am

RE: Aircraft Over Fuelled In Error

Sun Jan 01, 2012 6:57 pm

Quoting intsim (Reply 14):
The flight crew was pretty pissed. Luckily they worked it out and the fuel could be tankered.
Quoting dxing (Reply 21):
I'm surprised to hear this as I have never had a capt call and say "Hey they gave us too much gas, we can take it but we want it taken off!".

Sorry. They took the fuel. There were several calls to ops. It seems like the fueler had to match the wing quantities but i do not recall how it exactly shook out. The flight only required 750#.

The fuelers also started parking behind the Metros every time after that.
 
User avatar
DarkSnowyNight
Posts: 2598
Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2012 7:59 pm

RE: Aircraft Over Fuelled In Error

Sun Jan 01, 2012 8:09 pm

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 12):

Many aircraft, including most models of 737, use automatic fulling shutoff. You program the fuel panel with how much fuel you want and the valves will close automatically when the indicator has the correct quantity in the tank.

The 737s I work with (Most NG types as well as the 4xxs & 5xxs) will indeed auto-shutoff, but only when you are about to hit the VTO. I've not seen one that can be pre-programmed. Was/is that an option for the 737s?
"Nous ne sommes pas infectés. Il n'y a pas d'infection ici..."
 
tdscanuck
Posts: 8572
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2006 7:25 am

RE: Aircraft Over Fuelled In Error

Sun Jan 01, 2012 11:40 pm

Quoting DarkSnowyNight (Reply 30):

The 737s I work with (Most NG types as well as the 4xxs & 5xxs) will indeed auto-shutoff, but only when you are about to hit the VTO. I've not seen one that can be pre-programmed.

The VTO shutoff is a float switch in the high point of the tank that severs power to the refuel valve. It is completely independant of the fuel quantity indication system and is designed to prevent spills and (depending on refuel pressure) wing damage. Fuel quantity select, when fitted, is part of the fuel quantity system and is just a convenience for fuelers.

Quoting DarkSnowyNight (Reply 30):
Was/is that an option for the 737s?

It's an option. On the 737-300/400/500 the cockpit indicators are the masters (they actually measure the fuel quantity) the the refuel panel indicators are repeaters. The power for the refuel valves is routed through the refuel panel indicators and there's an extra knob on the indicator that lets you pre-select the quantity you want if you have the fuel pre-select option. The indicator will then kill power to the refuel valve once the indicated quantity matches the pre-selected quantity.

On the 737NG the system looks exactly the same as the 737-300/400/500 from the refuel panel but the architecture in the fuel quantity indication system and flight deck display is quite different. If you have the pre-select option there will be an extra knob on each refuel panel indicator to do the quantity pre-select.

Tom.
 
User avatar
HAWK21M
Posts: 30067
Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2001 10:05 pm

RE: Aircraft Over Fuelled In Error

Mon Jan 02, 2012 5:58 am

Out here the fastest a de-fuelling ops can be accomplished will be not less than 1-2hrs.the reason being that due to heavy ATF refuelling demand, the refuellers do not stock empty bowsers for defuelling purposes.The need when it occurs necessatites that the Bowser is emptied & then used for Defuelling,as fuel stocks cannot be mixed.

In such situations OTP matters more that costs & hence the former is chosen by burning fuel.
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
josekmlb
Posts: 195
Joined: Thu May 29, 2008 7:34 am

RE: Aircraft Over Fuelled In Error

Mon Jan 02, 2012 7:06 am

with Delta we had 4 different ways to refuel the airplane for an MD-88, The magna sticks, truck meter, cockpit gauges, and fuel transfer. With the 737-200 I always used the drip sticks nice simple and easy go to your grid chats after you get the pitch and roll of the aircraft then put the right amount of fuel in the plane. Nice thing about Delta we did not have to have any MTC come out or sign off on anything. We took classes in KATL to get signed off to do it on our own. After will fill out the FSR and give it to the capt that was it done. For Delta if you fueled their A/C they wanted you to be signed off on every plane they flew in case one diverted in with an inop gauge. And that was back when Delta was flying the 27's MD-11's and L1011 man I miss those widget days.......
 
KELPkid
Posts: 5247
Joined: Wed Nov 02, 2005 5:33 am

RE: Aircraft Over Fuelled In Error

Mon Jan 02, 2012 7:19 am

When I was an FBO line boy, fuel left over from defuelling operations was used for ground equipment. Diesel engines will burn Jet-A, and anything with a gas engine (down to a lawn mower   ) will burn avgas, although you obviously can't put avgas (legally) into a vehicle which goes on the public roads...
Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
 
User avatar
HAWK21M
Posts: 30067
Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2001 10:05 pm

RE: Aircraft Over Fuelled In Error

Tue Jan 03, 2012 7:57 am

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 34):
When I was an FBO line boy, fuel left over from defuelling operations was used for ground equipment. Diesel engines will burn Jet-A, and anything with a gas engine (down to a lawn mower   ) will burn avgas, although you obviously can't put avgas (legally) into a vehicle which goes on the public roads...

Some GSE are configured to run on ATF....considering the heat generated it would not be advisible to run every GSE on ATF  
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
canoecarrier
Posts: 2573
Joined: Sat Feb 14, 2004 1:20 pm

RE: Aircraft Over Fuelled In Error

Tue Jan 03, 2012 8:04 pm

Quoting intsim (Reply 14):
The pumping went to like 124 gallons before the fueler halted to see what was going on. The flight crew was pretty pissed. Luckily they worked it out and the fuel could be tankered.

That I can remember, I've never had to defuel a single point capable aircraft before, but in smaller GA aircraft it wasn't that uncommon for us to put a standard fuel load on say a KA-350 that the flight crew could build off of, but rarely the load would go up and we'd need to defuel. No joke, we'd siphon the fuel out of the wing with a hose and 5 gallon buckets.


Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 18):
The contractor has no control of the aircraft's fuel indication and fueling system; you can't hold them responsible for failures of the aircraft hardware, which is the most common cause of this type of problem.

I wouldn't say "no control" on large transport category aircraft sure, but if I got an order for a 160 gallon split on a J-31 and overfueled because I didn't look at the meter that was on me. Not all aircraft have a digital or analog fuel readout at the fueling point.

I also remember having to lead the old analog dials on 727's. If you shut the fuel off right when the dial hit the load you'd want you'd almost always overfuel by couple hundred pounds of fuel as it filtered down into the wing tanks.
The beatings will continue until morale improves
 
User avatar
HAWK21M
Posts: 30067
Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2001 10:05 pm

RE: Aircraft Over Fuelled In Error

Wed Jan 04, 2012 7:55 am

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 36):
we'd siphon the fuel out of the wing with a hose and 5 gallon buckets.

What about quality control of that fuel before reuse?.....

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 36):

I also remember having to lead the old analog dials on 727's. If you shut the fuel off right when the dial hit the load you'd want you'd almost always overfuel by couple hundred pounds of fuel as it filtered down into the wing tanks.

The trick is to shut off a little prior as the refuelling valve closure Time delay allows approx 50-100kgs before shutoff....Alternatively calculate the Litres of uplift & control the Hydrant/Bowser as backup.
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
User avatar
DarkSnowyNight
Posts: 2598
Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2012 7:59 pm

RE: Aircraft Over Fuelled In Error

Wed Jan 04, 2012 8:40 am

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 37):

The trick is to shut off a little prior as the refuelling valve closure Time delay allows approx 50-100kgs before shutoff....Alternatively calculate the Litres of uplift & control the Hydrant/Bowser as backup.

You just get to know your types and remember which ones tend roll up by how much, etc...

I stay away from using the gallons meter on the hydrant for a few reasons. It's very good as an approximator to let you know that you haven't overshot by 1000lbs, or something huge like that. But on days when it starts off very cold and heats up a bunch, as it does here, it's very easy for your densities to change and leave you way off. I've been off by as much as 160 gallons before and still well within tolerance for weight as a matter of routine.
"Nous ne sommes pas infectés. Il n'y a pas d'infection ici..."
 
User avatar
HAWK21M
Posts: 30067
Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2001 10:05 pm

RE: Aircraft Over Fuelled In Error

Wed Jan 04, 2012 11:21 am

Quoting darksnowynight (Reply 38):
it's very easy for your densities to change and leave you way off. I've been off by as much as 160 gallons before and still well within tolerance for weight as a matter of routine.

If the Sp gravity is calculated accuratly, the variation should not be much unless the FQIS needs calibration.
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
vc10
Posts: 1419
Joined: Thu Nov 15, 2001 4:13 am

RE: Aircraft Over Fuelled In Error

Wed Jan 04, 2012 2:33 pm

In my day [ I know poor old devil ] we would subtract the amount on board from the required amount for the the next flight , and convert that to gallons/litres to be uplifted. You would knock off a couple of hundred gallons/litres and give this new figure to the refueller with instructions to stop refuelling at that figure and come and check with me. If things seemed to be going OK then the refuelling would continue to the required amount.

This freed you up to continue with the pre flight checks with some assurance that you would not overfuel. Mind you it still could be in the wrong tanks

Littlevc10   
 
DiamondFlyer
Posts: 3313
Joined: Wed Oct 29, 2008 11:50 pm

RE: Aircraft Over Fuelled In Error

Wed Jan 04, 2012 4:01 pm

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 37):
What about quality control of that fuel before reuse?.....

In the quantities involved in defueling a GA airplane, it probably isn't used in an aircraft again.

-DiamondFlyer
From my cold, dead hands
 
User avatar
HAWK21M
Posts: 30067
Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2001 10:05 pm

RE: Aircraft Over Fuelled In Error

Tue Jan 10, 2012 8:17 am

Quoting vc10 (Reply 40):

This freed you up to continue with the pre flight checks with some assurance that you would not overfuel. Mind you it still could be in the wrong tanks

Out here refuelling ops need to be supervised/handled by company personnel at all times.

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 41):

In the quantities involved in defueling a GA airplane, it probably isn't used in an aircraft again.

What in case of Unscheduled Mx needing tank entry/repair & forced Defuelling.....
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
DiamondFlyer
Posts: 3313
Joined: Wed Oct 29, 2008 11:50 pm

RE: Aircraft Over Fuelled In Error

Tue Jan 10, 2012 4:36 pm

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 42):
What in case of Unscheduled Mx needing tank entry/repair & forced Defuelling.....

Been there, done that. Really on most GA airplanes, the volumes involved aren't big enough to make it worth finding a way to store the fuel.

-DiamondFlyer
From my cold, dead hands
 
User avatar
HAWK21M
Posts: 30067
Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2001 10:05 pm

RE: Aircraft Over Fuelled In Error

Tue Jan 10, 2012 9:54 pm

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 43):
Been there, done that. Really on most GA airplanes, the volumes involved aren't big enough to make it worth finding a way to store the fuel.

Storage is NOT the issue here....Defuelling requires a seperate Container by the refuelling agency,this needs to be quality cleared before Refuelling again if used on any other Aircraft.record of the event would need to be mantained.
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
User avatar
DarkSnowyNight
Posts: 2598
Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2012 7:59 pm

RE: Aircraft Over Fuelled In Error

Tue Jan 10, 2012 11:18 pm

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 39):

If the Sp gravity is calculated accuratly, the variation should not be much unless the FQIS needs calibration.

The SG can also easily be off if the fuel in question comes from a different tank at the Fuel Farm. I've noticed that it really is the gallons that vary, while the mass (pounds or kg) tend to stay pretty much where you need them. For instance, the 73NGs will VTO their wing tanks at about 8650lbs or so, and that pretty much never changes, but I regularly see the gallons vary by as much as 190lbs at that range.
"Nous ne sommes pas infectés. Il n'y a pas d'infection ici..."
 
DiamondFlyer
Posts: 3313
Joined: Wed Oct 29, 2008 11:50 pm

RE: Aircraft Over Fuelled In Error

Wed Jan 11, 2012 12:38 am

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 44):
Storage is NOT the issue here....Defuelling requires a seperate Container by the refuelling agency,this needs to be quality cleared before Refuelling again if used on any other Aircraft.record of the event would need to be mantained.

Maybe you misunderstood me. The fuel isn't used again, in my experience. It goes into GSE for their use.

-DiamondFlyer
From my cold, dead hands
 
Maverick623
Posts: 4720
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 9:13 am

RE: Aircraft Over Fuelled In Error

Wed Jan 11, 2012 9:33 am

Quoting grimey (Reply 10):
I was told before that if your ever going to take off overweight make sure that its overweight with fuel

Not only does that make zero sense (the sum of everything is the weight)....

Quoting grimey (Reply 10):
and the only time your carrying too much fuel is when your aircraft is on fire.

When you crash because you're overweight there's gonna be a huge fire!
"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
 
User avatar
HAWK21M
Posts: 30067
Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2001 10:05 pm

RE: Aircraft Over Fuelled In Error

Wed Jan 11, 2012 5:58 pm

Quoting darksnowynight (Reply 45):
The SG can also easily be off if the fuel in question comes from a different tank at the Fuel Farm

That would have its sp gravity stated to assist in calculation.

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 46):
Maybe you misunderstood me. The fuel isn't used again, in my experience. It goes into GSE for their use.

Thats optional, but there is a need to record the same.some operators sell it to the fuel vendor or utilize it back on their aircraft after QC checks.
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
DiamondFlyer
Posts: 3313
Joined: Wed Oct 29, 2008 11:50 pm

RE: Aircraft Over Fuelled In Error

Wed Jan 11, 2012 6:25 pm

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 48):

Thats optional, but there is a need to record the same.some operators sell it to the fuel vendor or utilize it back on their aircraft after QC checks.

Might be that I'm having trouble understanding your English, but I've never once recorded de-fueling an aircraft. Mind you, these are not airline aircraft, but rather privately operated Part 91 operations.

-DiamondFlyer
From my cold, dead hands

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 16 guests

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos