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sevenheavy
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B744 Vs B748 - Flight Deck Differences?

Thu May 03, 2012 1:51 pm

Hi all,

I've been comparing pictures of the two flight decks. To my (untrained!) eye it is very difficult to spot any major differences. I'm sure that there have been significant upgrades, and that commonality was a key consideration but visually, are there any differnces, and specifically are there any improvements from a pilots perspective (I cant see provision for an EFB for example)

Thanks!
So long 701, it was nice knowing you.
 
wilco737
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RE: B744 Vs B748 - Flight Deck Differences?

Thu May 03, 2012 2:14 pm

The differences are rather small at first sight.

The 748 has LCD screens, it has another Puch to talk switch next to the window, the chronograph has been removed, a checklist curser switch is next to the thrust lever, the panel where you enter the frequencies is now digital, CPDLC switches right at eyesight of the pilots, different EICAS control panel...

The EFB at the LH airplane will be added from LH within the next weeks afaik.

These are the major differences I can think of right now.

wilco737
  
 
BoeingGuy
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RE: B744 Vs B748 - Flight Deck Differences?

Thu May 03, 2012 10:14 pm

Quoting wilco737 (Reply 1):
The 748 has LCD screens, it has another Puch to talk switch next to the window, the chronograph has been removed, a checklist curser switch is next to the thrust lever,

LCDs have been on the 747-400 for years. I don't remember when they cut-over from CRT to LCD displays but it was quite awhile ago. Also, the glareshield push to talk switch was optional on the 747 (and 767) so some 744s have it.

Let me see if I can summarize the significant differences.

The 747-8 has the following that the 747-400 does not:

1) Vertical Situation Display on the Nav Display
2) Electronic Checklist (ECL)
3) Cursor Control Devise to interface with the ECL, as Wilco mentioned
4) Gust Suppression controls for the ailerons
5) Air Data Inertial Reference Units (ADIRUs) rather than seperate Air Data Computers and Inertial Reference Units. This adds a third air data function as baseline (it was an expensive option on the 744). The last two 744s had ADIRUs too.
6) Communication messages on EICAS. Other modes have Comm messages, but the 744 did not. They had to use Advisory or Memo level messages on the 747-400 for messages that really should have been Comm messages.
7) RAAS (Runway Advisory and Awareness System) in EGPWS is at least on LH's 747-8s (not sure about other customers)

I'm sure I'll think of a few more.
 
rendezvous
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RE: B744 Vs B748 - Flight Deck Differences?

Fri May 04, 2012 1:02 am

So the checklist cursor control is where the stabiliser trim indicator was. Is that trim indication now on the EICAS instead? I assume that's the case for the clock/timer?
 
wilco737
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RE: B744 Vs B748 - Flight Deck Differences?

Fri May 04, 2012 5:50 am

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 2):
LCDs have been on the 747-400 for years.

Well, yes, but our 744s are that old, they all have CRT's 
Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 2):
7) RAAS (Runway Advisory and Awareness System) in EGPWS is at least on LH's 747-8s (not sure about other customers)

All our 744's have the RAAS as well, a system I like.

Quoting rendezvous (Reply 3):
So the checklist cursor control is where the stabiliser trim indicator was. Is that trim indication now on the EICAS instead? I assume that's the case for the clock/timer?

Yes. The clock is now in the Nav Display.

wilco737
  
 
KAUSpilot
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RE: B744 Vs B748 - Flight Deck Differences?

Fri May 04, 2012 7:02 am

The trim indicator is indeed on the EICAS. The clock/timer is in the top right corner of each Navigation Display. In addition there is a clock/timer on the status page of the multi-function display (lower EICAS) which automatically displays elapsed time since takeoff. I'll be happy not to be bothered with reaching up and switching the clock on anymore.

There is a 30 page .pdf file of differences that we have been trained on, and even then some things are left out, like the automatic tail strike prevention system and other automatic flight control features that might be relatively transparent to the pilots.

I'll hit some more flight deck highlights that may or may not have been mentioned:


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The 3 position pack control selectors are replaced by alternate action (2 position) pack control switches.

There is no aft cargo heat switch.

There are no system fault lights for the engine bleeds.

Center manifold pressure is displayed on the ECS synoptic.

There is a left and right trim air switch instead of a single trim air switch on the pneumatic portion of the overhead panel where the aft cargo switch is on the -400.

There is an alternate ventilation valve switch and selector on the pneumatic portion of the overhead panel where the master trim air switch is on the -400.

There is no zone reset/sys fault switch on the pneumatic portion of the overhead panel.

There is a ram air turbine switch on the top right side of overhead panel.

There is a "center air data" selector on the top right side of the overhead panel.

There is no windshield air switch on the captain and first officer's sidewall panels.

There is no lower lobe cargo conditioned air flow rate selector for freighters, instead there is a lower lobe aft cargo heat selector on the overhead maintenance panel.

There is a towing power switch on the overhead maintenance panel.

There is an "EMU MAINT POWER" switch on the overhead maintenance panel.

"DEFUEL RSV 2 & 3 XFER" switch on the overhead maintenance panel has been moved to the top of the overhead panel.

There are no start valve lights in the engine start switches on the overhead panel.

There are no autostart or ignition switches on the overhead panel.

N2 engine indicators have "RUNNING", "AUTOSTART", "X-BLD", or "AUTORELIGHT" messages above them depending on engine condition.

The landing gear lever is smaller and has no "off" position.

The autobrake selector was moved from the aft portion of the center control stand (-400) to just under the landing gear lever on the -8.

Flap limit speed placards are all raised by 5 knots.

The pairs of "INBD CRT" and LOWR CRT" selectors have been replaced with "INBD DISPLAY" selectors

There is an overspeed aural reset switch just below the lower EICAS (MFD) on the left side.

There are "RJCT" "ACPT" and "CNCL" switches on the sides of the glareshield to enable quick response to ATC DLC messages.

As mentioned, the display select panel with the system synoptic switches has been completely redesigned to allow the lower EICAS (now MFD) and each inboard display to be triple redundant and to accomodate the electronic checklist controls. There are electronic checklist cursor controls on the center control stand where the pitch trim indicators are located on the -400.

The 3 Radio Tuning Panels and Transponder are redesigned with keypads instead of scrolling knobs for tuning fequencies and transponder codes.

The "No Smoking" sign selector has been replcaed by a main deck signaling system switch on the freighter.

Numerous changes to the PFD, Nav, and EICAS displays that I won't get into here.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I guess that's about all I can think of for now, I hope this helps.
 
smartt1982
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RE: B744 Vs B748 - Flight Deck Differences?

Fri May 04, 2012 12:33 pm

What sort of training would the pilots need to undertake, when changing over?
 
BoeingGuy
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RE: B744 Vs B748 - Flight Deck Differences?

Fri May 04, 2012 6:51 pm

Quoting KAUSpilot (Reply 5):
There is a ram air turbine switch on the top right side of overhead panel.

Good catch. I forgot the -8 has a RAT.

Quoting KAUSpilot (Reply 5):
There is a "center air data" selector on the top right side of the overhead panel.

I indirectly covered that when I mentioned the 3 ADIRUs. Actually, this is not new to the -8. Some 747-400s had a third ADC and this switch as a priced option.

Quoting KAUSpilot (Reply 5):
There are no autostart or ignition switches on the overhead panel.

Yeah, several influential pilots pushed strongly for removing the autostart switches on the 787 and 747-8. In other words, there's no way to turn off the autostart function now. Newer GE engines have had the Continuous Ingnition switch removed. The GE 777s have done the same. GE has demonstrated that their Auto-relight function is so effective, that you don't need continuous ignition at any time anymore.

Quoting wilco737 (Reply 4):
All our 744's have the RAAS as well, a system I like.

RAAS is very controversial depending upon which pilots you talk to. I helped work on the Boeing configuration of RAAS (e.g. needing the inhibit switch and some other requirements). Some pilots hate RAAS but some have said that one day it will save their a**, so appreciate it. I'm glad you like it. If someday it prevents an accident then that is the ultimate satisfaction.

[Edited 2012-05-04 11:52:31]
 
sevenheavy
Topic Author
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RE: B744 Vs B748 - Flight Deck Differences?

Fri May 04, 2012 8:58 pm

Thanks for the replys guys. I am somewhat surprised there isn't more "787" style technology but I guess it's a trade off.......more evolution than revolution!
So long 701, it was nice knowing you.
 
KAUSpilot
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RE: B744 Vs B748 - Flight Deck Differences?

Fri May 04, 2012 10:14 pm

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 7):
I indirectly covered that when I mentioned the 3 ADIRUs. Actually, this is not new to the -8. Some 747-400s had a third ADC and this switch as a priced option.

True, several of the freighter and passenger -400's I fly do have the center ADC, however the dedicated switch on the overhead is a new addition in my experience; the -400's with the 3rd ADC that I've flown simply have an extra detent for the ADC selector on the "instrument source select switches" outboard of the clocks on the instrument panel.

Do some -400's have the center ADC switch on the overhead? Thanks for the info!
 
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CCA
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RE: B744 Vs B748 - Flight Deck Differences?

Sat May 05, 2012 1:20 am

Just a slight modification to what you wrote.

Quoting KAUSpilot (Reply 5):
There is no aft cargo heat switch.

There is no aft cargo heat switch instead there is a lower lobe aft cargo heat selector on the overhead maintenance panel. (Removing the need for the 'Normal / High' selector in the aft cargo compartment).

Quoting KAUSpilot (Reply 5):
There is no lower lobe cargo conditioned air flow rate selector for freighters, instead there is a lower lobe aft cargo heat selector on the overhead maintenance panel.

There is no lower lobe cargo conditioned air flow rate selector for freighters, instead it's incorporated into the forward and aft lower lobe temperature selectors on the overhead panel.
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N8911E
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RE: B744 Vs B748 - Flight Deck Differences?

Sat May 05, 2012 1:59 am

Quoting KAUSpilot (Reply 5):
There are no start valve lights in the engine start switches on the overhead panel.

Are u sure?


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Wilco737

 
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CCA
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RE: B744 Vs B748 - Flight Deck Differences?

Sat May 05, 2012 2:06 am

The switches are the same but there is no white light in the pull switch on the -8, to indicate valve open.
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CCA
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RE: B744 Vs B748 - Flight Deck Differences?

Sat May 05, 2012 2:28 am

Quoting KAUSpilot (Reply 9):
Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 7):
I indirectly covered that when I mentioned the 3 ADIRUs. Actually, this is not new to the -8. Some 747-400s had a third ADC and this switch as a priced option.

True, several of the freighter and passenger -400's I fly do have the center ADC, however the dedicated switch on the overhead is a new addition in my experience; the -400's with the 3rd ADC that I've flown simply have an extra detent for the ADC selector on the "instrument source select switches" outboard of the clocks on the instrument panel.

Do some -400's have the center ADC switch on the overhead? Thanks for the info!

The majority of -400s have the 3rd ADC, after a quick search the only ones I could find with the L, R only option were United, Atlas, Asiana & Air France.

BA has a four position ADC selector including AUTO.

[Edited 2012-05-04 19:30:16]
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KAUSpilot
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RE: B744 Vs B748 - Flight Deck Differences?

Sat May 05, 2012 2:47 am

Quoting N8911E (Reply 11):
Are u sure?

Quite  
 
N8911E
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RE: B744 Vs B748 - Flight Deck Differences?

Mon May 07, 2012 8:52 pm

Quoting KAUSpilot (Reply 14):

Quoting N8911E (Reply 11):
Are u sure?

Quite

Wow, I learn something new every day.
 
CM
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RE: B744 Vs B748 - Flight Deck Differences?

Mon May 07, 2012 9:58 pm

Quoting sevenheavy (Reply 8):
I am somewhat surprised there isn't more "787" style technology

Most of what is changed is not in the form of physical changes, so you won't see it unless you use the airplane. The VSD is capability adapted from the 787 (and 737NG, for that matter), as is the Integrated Approach Nav capability, but you won't see these unless you fly the airplane.

One of my favorites which has not been mentioned is the WXR range now dials down to something like 0.5nm. The display switches over to airport moving map function from the nav database, providing taxiway and airport guidance driven by GPS when the airplane is on the ground. This, is the convenience counterpart to the enhanced safety provided by RAAS.
 
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zeke
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RE: B744 Vs B748 - Flight Deck Differences?

Mon May 07, 2012 10:03 pm

It would be nice also to point out what features of the 747-8 that are new to the type, however are not working at the moment. At the moment the 744 can do a number of things managed by the FMC which the 747-8 cannot do. Boeing has issued a lengthy bullien to operators covering this.

Operationally they are flown differently as a number of the flight deck management features do not work.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
BoeingGuy
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RE: B744 Vs B748 - Flight Deck Differences?

Mon May 07, 2012 10:10 pm

Quoting CM (Reply 16):
One of my favorites which has not been mentioned is the WXR range now dials down to something like 0.5nm.

It's not WXR range. It's Navigation Display range. WXR is only one of many things that can display on the ND.
 
CM
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RE: B744 Vs B748 - Flight Deck Differences?

Mon May 07, 2012 10:47 pm

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 18):

Thanks for that! Yes, the map is on the ND. I began that post intending to mention the improved ability of the WXR to distinguish high altitude weater formations. However, as Zeke pointed out, not all 747-8 functionalty has been delivered at this point. In the case of the WXR enhancements, it's also not something which was ever intended for EIS, just something new the airplane is capable of.
 
krisyyz
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RE: B744 Vs B748 - Flight Deck Differences?

Tue May 22, 2012 1:22 am

Quoting wilco737 (Reply 1):
The EFB at the LH airplane will be added from LH within the next weeks afaik.

I was wondering about the lack of the EFB. Is LH putting it where the Boeing demo had the EFB placed, or will it be mounted the same way as on the B744?

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 2):
2) Electronic Checklist (ECL)
Quoting KAUSpilot (Reply 5):
As mentioned, the display select panel with the system synoptic switches has been completely redesigned to allow the lower EICAS (now MFD) and each inboard display to be triple redundant and to accomodate the electronic checklist controls. There are electronic checklist cursor controls on the center control stand where the pitch trim indicators are located on the -400.

Does the Data Link /ACARS input work through the MFD (777 style) or on the MCDU?

Great information here!

Thanks,

KrisYYZ
 
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CCA
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RE: B744 Vs B748 - Flight Deck Differences?

Tue May 22, 2012 2:45 am

Quoting krisyyz (Reply 20):
Does the Data Link /ACARS input work through the MFD (777 style) or on the MCDU?

No it's still through the CDU like the 744.

Rgds.
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KAUSpilot
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RE: B744 Vs B748 - Flight Deck Differences?

Tue May 22, 2012 3:40 am

Quoting smartt1982 (Reply 6):

What sort of training would the pilots need to undertake, when changing over?

Pilots at my airline must complete roughly 15 hours of computer based training and 8 hours of instruction in a fixed-base simulator prior to being approved to operate the 747-8.
 
BoeingGuy
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RE: B744 Vs B748 - Flight Deck Differences?

Tue May 22, 2012 3:36 pm

Quoting CM (Reply 19):
Thanks for that! Yes, the map is on the ND. I began that post intending to mention the improved ability of the WXR to distinguish high altitude weater formations. However, as Zeke pointed out, not all 747-8 functionalty has been delivered at this point. In the case of the WXR enhancements, it's also not something which was ever intended for EIS, just something new the airplane is capable of.

The 747-8 has the Rockwell-Collins WXR-2100 Multi-scan system as baseline. That is the same WXR system that's baseline on the 787, and offerrable along with various WXR systems on other models. I assume you are referring to it's ability to filter out ground clutter and see better slices of the weather. Of course, Honeywell's latest WXR systems also have similar new capabilities.
 
CM
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RE: B744 Vs B748 - Flight Deck Differences?

Tue May 22, 2012 3:44 pm

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 23):
I assume you were referring to...

Actually, I was thinking of the upgradability of that system to add the capability to call out anvil tops, hail and other wether forms which are (today) not discretely identified in the way we display the radar returns.
 
BoeingGuy
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RE: B744 Vs B748 - Flight Deck Differences?

Tue May 22, 2012 11:35 pm

Quoting CM (Reply 24):
Actually, I was thinking of the upgradability of that system to add the capability to call out anvil tops, hail and other wether forms which are (today) not discretely identified in the way we display the radar returns.

Yeah, I'm well familiar with those potential WXR-2100 upgrades, such as lightning, hail and advanced turbulence detection. The display system needs to be modified to show the altitude of anvil tops (or WXR on the Vertical Situation Display). I won't be too revealing, but I was pretty involved with this stuff on this system for awhile so I'm intimately familiar with the box's capabilities. It's all great stuff.

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