BOEING747400
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Airbus 380 Engines

Sun May 13, 2012 11:25 am

I've seen 2 types of engines on the A380 which are EA and RR. I wonder if they're both equal in terms of power (thrust rating) or not.
 
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747classic
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RE: Airbus 380 Engines

Sun May 13, 2012 11:52 am

The following engines are presently certified for the A380 series :


A380-841: Four Rolls Royce RB211 Trent 970-84 or RB211 Trent 970B-84 turbofan engines; (348.31 kN or 78,303 lbf), see Engine Type Certificate E00075EN

A380-842: Four Rolls Royce RB211 Trent 972-84 or RB211 Trent 972B-84 turbofan engines; (356.81 kN or 80,214 lbf), see Engine Type Certificate E00075EN

A380-861: Four (4) Engine Alliance GP7270 or GP7270E* turbofan engines; (332.44 kN or 74,735 lbf), see Engine Type Certificate E00072EN

* If modification 62947 (Thrust Enhancement Kit – TEK) is embodied on A380- 861 aircraft models, the aircraft have an
increased thrust in hot days condition. The engine denomination changes from GP7270 to GP7270E.

See for more details A380 Type Certificate :
http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory...5799900710cc2/$FILE/A58NM_Rev5.pdf

Details of all certified RR trent 900 series can be found here :
http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory...62573080054f9ea/$FILE/E00075EN.pdf

Details of all certified Engine Alliance GP 7200 series can be found here :
http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory...e791c/$FILE/E00072EN%20Rev%203.pdf
Operating a twin over the ocean, you're always one engine failure from a total emergency.
 
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Francoflier
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RE: Airbus 380 Engines

Sun May 13, 2012 11:53 am

I'll do my own airline. With Blackjack. And hookers. In fact, forget the airline.
 
strfyr51
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RE: Airbus 380 Engines

Sun May 13, 2012 2:49 pm

Quoting 747classic (Reply 1):

this explains a LOT! no Wonder PWA was upset with GE for not offering the GP-n engine for the A350. This GP7200 is built at Pratt in Hartford. I had always assumed that the engine was built in Ohio at the GE facility..I guess this might make Pratt want to upgrade the GTF to the Big engines pretty Quick They already Have the technoolgy to remove the GE supplied components especialy with the F135 enines they built for the F135 fighter It would SURE change the Status of the A350 in my book.
 
BOEING747400
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RE: Airbus 380 Engines

Sun May 13, 2012 4:34 pm

So I guess the Qantas 380 must be the most powerful of all the 380s currently in service now?
 
SonomaFlyer
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RE: Airbus 380 Engines

Sun May 13, 2012 6:32 pm

Quoting BOEING747400 (Reply 4):
So I guess the Qantas 380 must be the most powerful of all the 380s currently in service now?

They are. The extra thrust was needed for their services to LAX.

It would be great to see a 380 with the Trent XWB engines, enthusiasts salivate at the extra performance which would be available if this were to happen.
 
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lightsaber
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RE: Airbus 380 Engines

Sun May 13, 2012 8:54 pm

Quoting BOEING747400 (Reply 4):
So I guess the Qantas 380 must be the most powerful of all the 380s currently in service now?

Certification testing has been performed on the GP7200 for higher thrust as a GP7277 with the 2122M76P29 plug as noted in the excellent links reply #1. However, I doubt anyone needs that thrust. I'm not aware of airframe mods to allow it actually...

With the GP7200 (see Note 2 in reply #1's link) now certified for 10 minutes of elevated thrust in an engine out condition, I'm not aware of any GP7270 customer needing more thrust. I do wonder if with the MTOW increase if we'll see a 'thrust bump' for EK?    They do have their 114F with 600 foot barometric altitude (not actual altitude) take off requirement.

Quoting SonomaFlyer (Reply 5):
It would be great to see a 380 with the Trent XWB engines, enthusiasts salivate at the extra performance which would be available if this were to happen.

Calling Astuteman and his A389 proposal.  

IIRC, the GP7270 currently has a 0.7% fuel burn advantage, so RR will have to do something.   

Lightsaber
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BOEING747400
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RE: Airbus 380 Engines

Mon May 14, 2012 5:37 pm

How does the B747-8i's engines compare in terms of power with that of the A380? For example, the Lufthansa B747-830?
 
rwessel
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RE: Airbus 380 Engines

Mon May 14, 2012 9:15 pm

Quoting BOEING747400 (Reply 7):
How does the B747-8i's engines compare in terms of power with that of the A380? For example, the Lufthansa B747-830?

The only engine choice for the 748, the GEnx-2B67, produces 67,400lbs (takeoff) and 58,500lbs (continuous).
 
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747classic
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RE: Airbus 380 Engines

Tue May 15, 2012 1:22 pm

More interesting could be a combination of a new "bleed delivery optimised" GEnx-1B variant and the A388.

This combination is now possible because the GEnx-1B will be certified, after implementation of PIP2, with an increased maximum T/O thrust of 78.000 lbs, comparable with the present installed thrust levels of both available engines for the A388.

But seen the present installation of the Engine Alliance engine at the A388, this new combination will probably be "off limits" in commercial terms.

[Edited 2012-05-15 06:32:24]
Operating a twin over the ocean, you're always one engine failure from a total emergency.
 
astuteman
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RE: Airbus 380 Engines

Tue May 15, 2012 6:17 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 6):
IIRC, the GP7270 currently has a 0.7% fuel burn advantage, so RR will have to do something

Like the 0.8% sfc PIP that should be available next year?   

Rgds
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Airbus 380 Engines

Tue May 15, 2012 10:57 pm

Quoting 747classic (Reply 1):
A380-841: Four Rolls Royce RB211 Trent 970-84 or RB211 Trent 970B-84 turbofan engines; (348.31 kN or 78,303 lbf), see Engine Type Certificate E00075EN

A380-842: Four Rolls Royce RB211 Trent 972-84 or RB211 Trent 972B-84 turbofan engines; (356.81 kN or 80,214 lbf), see Engine Type Certificate E00075EN

A380-861: Four (4) Engine Alliance GP7270 or GP7270E* turbofan engines; (332.44 kN or 74,735 lbf), see Engine Type Certificate E00072EN

If the GP7200 offers ~8% less thrust than the Trent 900, why would anyone order it? The TSFC can't be that much better, can it?
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan
 
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lightsaber
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RE: Airbus 380 Engines

Wed May 16, 2012 2:54 am

Quoting astuteman (Reply 10):
Like the 0.8% sfc PIP that should be available next year?

Yes. Because then Pratt/GE will do a PIP helping to employ friends of mine.  
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 11):
If the GP7200 offers ~8% less thrust than the Trent 900, why would anyone order it? The TSFC can't be that much better, can it?

A higher thrust GP7200 is offered. No customer requires it. The GP7200 is available to any customer who *wants* the thrust. You are correct in that the improved fuel burn does not overcome the thrust difference. However, if EK is able to fly DXB-SYD on the current engines, they're ok. I suspect when the higher MTOW weight A380 becomes available next year, higher thrust GP7200s will hit the skies.

Most T900 customers are buying lower thrust engines. If someone buys a used GP7270 and desires the GP7277, they just will pay EA a licensing fee and receive the 2122M76P29 plug and higher thrust (exempting, I suspect, some early build engines). The only issue is the limits are the same as the GP7270 and thus engines will have to be cycled through the shop earlier.  

Also recall the GP7270 has a *ten minute* maximum thrust capability. Thus takeoff thrust can be maintained longer thus slightly reducing the thrust requirement for a given takeoff weight.

The advantage for RR, is they found the issues with the high thrust setting of the T900. In other words, the debugging is pretty much over.

Then again, *no* A380 has a 'good enough' dispatch reliability. I do not know if either engine is contributing to this. Dispatch reliability will matter more than a small amount of thrust.

Lightsaber
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DocLightning
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RE: Airbus 380 Engines

Wed May 16, 2012 11:33 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 12):
The advantage for RR, is they found the issues with the high thrust setting of the T900. In other words, the debugging is pretty much over.

By "found the issues" you mean they had an uncontained failure on departure from SIN, right?
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
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tdscanuck
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RE: Airbus 380 Engines

Thu May 17, 2012 5:16 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 13):
Quoting lightsaber (Reply 12):
The advantage for RR, is they found the issues with the high thrust setting of the T900. In other words, the debugging is pretty much over.

By "found the issues" you mean they had an uncontained failure on departure from SIN, right?

That failure had nothing to do with thrust rating; it was an incorrectly manufactured oil stub tube. That tube would have failed at any of the rated thrusts.

Tom.
 
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747classic
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RE: Airbus 380 Engines

Thu May 17, 2012 6:37 am

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 12):
If someone buys a used GP7270 and desires the GP7277, they just will pay EA a licensing fee and receive the 2122M76P29 plug and higher thrust

Then you will end up with a GP7277 in your engine shop, but this engine is currently NOT included in the A388 type certificate.
I don't know if the actual combination A388/GP7277 already has been flight tested and only some paper work needs to be completed by the authorities to include this combination (A380-862?) in the type certificate. Otherwise you have to wait for some additional flight testing has been completed.

Question : are all the issues with the RR engines on the A388 included in the total dispatch reliability of the A388 ( aircraft non availability due RR engine additional checks / changes /upgrades, not included in the normal maintenance checks. ) or only the failures happening after release of the aircraft out of the hangar or happening before the next flight ?
Operating a twin over the ocean, you're always one engine failure from a total emergency.
 
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lightsaber
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RE: Airbus 380 Engines

Mon May 21, 2012 5:12 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 13):
By "found the issues" you mean they had an uncontained failure on departure from SIN, right?

I mean they found the root cause behind that and have corrected both a structural design error.

Quoting 747classic (Reply 15):
Otherwise you have to wait for some additional flight testing has been completed.

Agreed that the flight tests are required. But if a customer wanted that, I'm certain Airbus would flight test it with AE. Some of that testing was completed. I'm not sure of the exact status.

But it would be in the AE/Airbus contract to perform that flight testing as Airbus was requiring more thrust be available. So it should be a non-issue if a customer wanted to buy new build airframes.

I strongly suspect the new high MTOW A380s will have a higher thrust option. Note: I do not know a thing. I'm purely speculating.

Quoting 747classic (Reply 15):
Question : are all the issues with the RR engines on the A388 included in the total dispatch reliability of the A388 ( aircraft non availability due RR engine additional checks / changes /upgrades, not included in the normal maintenance checks. )

If it is a scheduled upgrade (A380 pulled out of service to update all engines) then it isn't included if a 744 or other plane was dispatched instead. However, each airline is allowed some discretion in how it is calculated.

Lightsaber
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DocLightning
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RE: Airbus 380 Engines

Mon May 21, 2012 10:37 pm

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 14):
That failure had nothing to do with thrust rating; it was an incorrectly manufactured oil stub tube. That tube would have failed at any of the rated thrusts.

I thought it did. After the incident, didn't RR limit maximum thrust on their engines for some time until the repairs could be performed?
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
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RickNRoll
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RE: Airbus 380 Engines

Tue May 22, 2012 2:45 am

I think that was while they tried to work out how it failed. Also possibly a precaution till they could fix the faulty parts. The engine works fine with that extra thrust now, with the correctly manufactured parts.
 
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lightsaber
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RE: Airbus 380 Engines

Sun May 27, 2012 5:03 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 17):
After the incident, didn't RR limit maximum thrust on their engines for some time until the repairs could be performed?

I recall a strict limit on high thrust takeoffs right after the incident to 75 for B and C mod engines:
http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...imited-to-75-flight-cycles-350901/

However "A mod" engines:
"Qantas cannot operate Trent 900 engines with an earlier "A mod" HP/IP support structure, the affidavit says."

The issue for QF is that December is exactly when those LAX A380s are taking off at high weights. So exactly when QF needed the thrust, they would have had to pull engines off for overhaul and any "A mod" engines would have to be used on other routes than LAX.

Lightsaber
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tdscanuck
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RE: Airbus 380 Engines

Sun May 27, 2012 6:01 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 19):
I recall a strict limit on high thrust takeoffs right after the incident to 75 for B and C mod engines:
http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...0901/

I think that, since it was right after the incident, they were still investigating and being conservative...only after investigation did they find the manufacturing defect in the oil system, which basically absolved the gaspath of any wrongdoing. An oil fire that severs your shaft is going to cause a turbine overspeed and rotor burst regardless of what thrust you're at.

Tom.
 
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lightsaber
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RE: Airbus 380 Engines

Sun May 27, 2012 6:23 pm

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 20):
only after investigation did they find the manufacturing defect in the oil system, which basically absolved the gaspath of any wrongdoing.

And deflection of the structure holding the connection. There was a little more than the oil pipe.   Even though the flaring was worse than I do!    I do not recall the thrust reduction. But I wasn't following that closely.

Lightsaber
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