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Quoting GuitrThree (Thread starter): if it's the FAA rule, it is a bendable rule I guess. |
Quoting GuitrThree (Thread starter): This is nothing but speculation, but did he call the fire truck out based on the chance that the "overweight" plane was going to have to abort takeoff due to never reaching rotation speed and needed it there to cool the brakes, or was this just happenstance that it was trucking out there at the same time? |
Quoting GuitrThree (Thread starter): This is nothing but speculation, but did he call the fire truck out based on the chance that the "overweight" plane was going to have to abort takeoff due to never reaching rotation speed and needed it there to cool the brakes, or was this just happenstance that it was trucking out there at the same time? |
Quoting GuitrThree (Thread starter): Pilot did a brake stand before rolling, and watching the rwy markers it looked like we took off with about 4,000 ft left, or using 8,000 to lift off.. Pretty long in a CRJ-7 if you ask me.... |
Quoting GuitrThree (Thread starter): This is where it got questionable. The pilot said that if we carried on our luggage, that didn't count towards the planes overall weight, so they opened up the first 4-5 overhead bins on both sides and started removing smaller bags and had passengers stow them under the seats. They took what looked like 10-12 bags out of the gate checked lot and stuffed them in the bins until the plane then became in acceptable weight, even though nothing really changed but the location of the bags. I understand this and if it's the FAA rule, it is a bendable rule I guess. |
Quoting GuitrThree (Thread starter): However, that being said, as I was on the right side of the plane and turned on to the runway from taxiway M, I noticed a loan fire engine heading (with NO lights/siren) to the end of RWY 8 somewhere around taxi way's R1, R2, R3. Then I questioned the pilots call. This is nothing but speculation, but did he call the fire truck out based on the chance that the "overweight" plane was going to have to abort takeoff due to never reaching rotation speed and needed it there to cool the brakes, or was this just happenstance that it was trucking out there at the same time? |
Quoting airtran737 (Reply 1): |
Quoting Mir (Reply 2): It's not bending it - it's complying precisely with the approved program that the airline has for baggage. Think of how much of a mess it would be if everything on the plane had to be individually weighed (passengers, checked bags, carry-on bags, catering, etc.). To make things easier, the airline is allowed to use average weights, which means that things weigh different amounts depending on where they are in the airplane. Bags in the hold are counted as more than bags in the cabin, because normally they are heavier. The programs are designed so that some stuff will weigh less than average, some will weigh more, and normally it will all balance out. |
Quoting Mir (Reply 2): Bags in the hold are counted as more than bags in the cabin, because normally they are heavier. |
Quoting horstroad (Reply 6): really? every single checked bag is weighed during check in / baggage drop off... why don´t they use these exact values instead of an average? wouldn´t it provide much more accurate performance / CG calculations? |
Quoting horstroad (Reply 6): really? every single checked bag is weighed during check in / baggage drop off... why don´t they use these exact values instead of an average? wouldn´t it provide much more accurate performance / CG calculations? |
Quoting kcrwflyer (Reply 7): Figure out an efficient, practical, and zero cost way to do that and get back to me. That process would be a mess. |
Quoting kcrwflyer (Reply 4): I've never done any research into it, but I've been told those markers actually give you an extra few hundred feet beyond what they say is remaining. |
Quoting N353SK (Reply 8): Your "long" takeoff roll was likely due to derated takeoff thrust, which is perfectly safe and, to many of us, a safer option than full thrust when weight allows. |
Quoting GuitrThree (Reply 13): f 20 of the carry on's have to go to the holding, why, all of a sudden, do they have to be calculated? |
Quoting GuitrThree (Reply 13): This defines stupid government rules if nothing else. |
Quoting woodreau (Reply 14): In regards to your takeoff roll in Denver, the 4000ft ground roll you said you experienced is actually kind of short. |
Quoting Mir (Reply 15): Because that's indication that they're more substantial than the average carry-on (i.e. bags that are too big to fit in the overhead bins), and should be counted as more. |
Quoting GuitrThree (Reply 17): Quoting Mir (Reply 15): They're better than the alternative. Not really. They just MOVED the bags... The plane took off with the exact same weight and landed with the exact same weight as before they simply MOVED the bags. There is no alternative here. |
Quoting GuitrThree (Reply 17): There is no alternative here. |
Quoting GuitrThree (Reply 18): Not one bag brought into the plane to be stowed had to be taken back out because they wouldn't fit. They all did..... |
Quoting Mir (Reply 10): Here's the thing about that: as I said, the standard weight program is designed so that some stuff will weigh more than it's listed as, some stuff will weigh less. The average makes it work out in the end. And that end includes everything - passengers, bags, etc. If you now introduce specificity into one component of the equation, it throws the total average off. |
Quoting GuitrThree (Reply 13): If you have 60 passengers on the flight, I assume that the airline is calculating that there will be 60 carry-on's plus 60 personal bags. |
Quoting KELPkid (Reply 11): 1) weigh each baggage cart, and paint that amount on the cart. Have the ground equipment maintenance guys remark that weight once or twice a year, or when the equipment is serviced. 2) weigh baggage cart upon departing baggage carousel for outbound flight. You'd have to install a vehicle scale. 3) subrract weigh in step 1) from weight in step 2), (for each baggage cart going to the outbound flight), and voila! And the technology even exists to weigh the carts in motion and do everything electronically Just ask the trucking industry... |
Quoting GuitrThree (Thread starter): They took what looked like 10-12 bags out of the gate checked lot |
Quoting woodreau (Reply 14): If you check it at the counter, it goes in the baggage hold and it weighs "30 pounds" or someone slaps a heavy sticker on it and it weighs "60 pounds" If you decide not to pay the checked bag fee and carry it on: and gate/valet check the bag at the gate, it goes in the baggage hold and it weighs "20 pounds". |
Quoting chapavaeaa (Reply 25): 've worked with technology that could tell you when another 12 pack of soft drinks was put on board and where it was located in under 10 seconds |
Quoting HaveBlue (Reply 27): And for those of you questioning whether this practice is actually safe or not, when was the last time an American airliner, regional or bigger, crashed because of being overweight or having its weight & balance off? |
Quoting NTSB: Although the pilots had totaled up the take-off weight of the aircraft before the flight and determined it to be within limits, the plane was actually overloaded and out of balance, due to the use of incorrect, but Federal Aviation Administration (FAA)-approved, passenger weight estimates. When checked, the National Transportation Safety Board found that the estimates were over 20 pounds (9 kg) lighter than the actual weight of an average passenger. After checking the actual weight of baggage retrieved from the crash site, and passengers (based on information from next-of-kin and the medical examiner), it was found that the aircraft was actually 580 pounds (264 kg) above its maximum allowable take-off weight, with its center of gravity 5% to the rear of the allowable limit. It was determined that neither problem alone would have caused the loss of control, which explains why it departed Huntington, West Virginia safely. |
Quoting KELPkid (Reply 11): 1) weigh each baggage cart, and paint that amount on the cart. Have the ground equipment maintenance guys remark that weight once or twice a year, or when the equipment is serviced. 2) weigh baggage cart upon departing baggage carousel for outbound flight. You'd have to install a vehicle scale. 3) subrract weigh in step 1) from weight in step 2), (for each baggage cart going to the outbound flight), and voila! And the technology even exists to weigh the carts in motion and do everything electronically Just ask the trucking industry... |
Quoting kalvado (Reply 21): And introducing specifics is exactly what happened here - airline increasing _actual average_ weight of cabin passenger (person+ carry-on+personal item), but pretending things did not change. As far as I understand, this is 100% legal and not bending any rules - but it definitely means taking a bite into safety margins built in by regulator and manufacturer. |
Quoting chapavaeaa (Reply 29): The singer Aliyah ( spelling is off) was a weight and balance accident. |
Quoting KELPkid (Reply 11): 1) weigh each baggage cart, and paint that amount on the cart. Have the ground equipment maintenance guys remark that weight once or twice a year, or when the equipment is serviced. 2) weigh baggage cart upon departing baggage carousel for outbound flight. You'd have to install a vehicle scale. 3) subrract weigh in step 1) from weight in step 2), (for each baggage cart going to the outbound flight), and voila! |
Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 30): The bottom line is that the current system works. And I think everyone's touched up pretty well as to why what the ramp and captain did was a perfectly legal thing to do. When I use to work for EV, back in the days when almost all flights had 60 bags on a CR2; when you had a close "max" i.e. 50 pax, 70 bags and say 65 bags checked for the flight. You ensure the gate agent gets as many carry-on bags on the a/c as possible. Because with those 65 checked bags, you don't know how many are heavy (they count twice-60lbs vs. 30lbs) and you have no idea how many gate claims you will have (they count as 20lbs if they go in the bin). So you control what you can. You get kid count and you make sure you have the least amount of gate checks as possible. |
Quoting chapavaeaa (Reply 29): The singer Aliyah ( spelling is off) was a weight and balance accident. |
Quoting HaveBlue (Reply 27): when was the last time an American airliner, regional or bigger, crashed because of being overweight or having its weight & balance off? |
Quoting chapavaeaa (Reply 29): Fine Air in Miami comes to mind but that may have been a cargo shift. |
Quoting chapavaeaa (Reply 29): As far as working fine....nah not really. Look at EK 407. Crew error in a input almost resulted in a hull loss . Not a direct correlation...but a contributer. |
Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 30): The weight of the bags were already factored into the cabin weight..so I don't follow. |
Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 30): Have you evern worked the ramp? |
Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 30): If you have, you'll know that that would be an extremely inefficient way to do things. I don't even know where to begin but for one, all bags are not staged like that. Especially in a hub. You will have bags upon bags going "tail-to-tail" as it's called up to 10 minutes before departure. Sometimes less. Everyone doesn't arrive at the same time, as you know. |
Quoting Mir (Reply 20): I'm not sure how passengers would feel about being asked to step onto a scale before going down the jetway. |
Quoting kalvado (Reply 34): Was it factored when bags were forced into a hold, or when they were forced into bins? "average" means you count on an"average person", who may either choose to gate check or carry bag on board. By forcing real people to deviate from "average" behavior, you are breaking the logic of average, increasing possible deviation of calculation from real numbers. |
Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 36): I remember a Beech 99 flight from Cheyenne to Denver, and a JS-31 from Columbia, MO to Memphis - both times they wanted our weight "plus a few pounds for clothes and your carry on" |
Quoting KELPkid (Reply 11): 1) weigh each baggage cart, and paint that amount on the cart. Have the ground equipment maintenance guys remark that weight once or twice a year, or when the equipment is serviced. 2) weigh baggage cart upon departing baggage carousel for outbound flight. You'd have to install a vehicle scale. 3) subrract weigh in step 1) from weight in step 2), (for each baggage cart going to the outbound flight), and voila! And the technology even exists to weigh the carts in motion and do everything electronically Just ask the trucking industry... |
Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 37): You're just making this too complicated. It is a simple system which is why it WORKS. |
Quoting chapavaeaa (Reply 25): essentially the airlines, the regulatory authorities and a number of others don't want to rock the boat and figure out what the real weight of an aircraft is.[because of] risk to the air carriers is that there "standard" weights are off and they have to throw passengers or bags off the airplane at the last minute with a true weight and balance system. |
Quoting kalvado (Reply 40): If there would be no overshots, it would definitely make sense to go with real weight (which are likely close enough, or lower, heh?) and save a few gallons of gas when real weight is below calculated.. |
Quoting GuitrThree (Reply 13): This defines stupid government rules if nothing else. |
Quoting GuitrThree (Reply 18): Oh, and besides that, in the end, they did fit in the overhead bin. Thats the point. Gate agents said they wouldn't fit, and then magically they did.. |
Quoting mcdu (Reply 43): Keep in mind the bag in the hold needs to be accounted for in the CG plan. If you did not count that bag and loaded it into pit on an EMB or a CRJ you are now affecting the rearward CG and not accounting for that item. |
Quoting mcdu (Reply 43): The biggest headache for them is the reverse bag drag of taking bags out of the cabin that don't fit and placing them in the cargo compartment during the boarding process. |
Quoting mcdu (Reply 43): The Capt. could have easily told the agent to solve the problem by having passengers removed to meet the weight target. I am sure you would not have wanted to be the passenger that was forced to be left behind if their were not enough volunteers to get off. |
Quoting Mir (Reply 42): It doesn't matter what system you use to determine weights - when it comes to fuel burn, the plane weighs what it weighs. So you're not saving any gas by using one system over the other. |
Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 41): So why haven't they advocated for such a system?... |
Quoting chapavaeaa (Reply 25): : essentially the airlines, the regulatory authorities and a number of others don't want to rock the boat and figure out what the real weight of an aircraft is.[because of] risk to the air carriers that there "standard" weights are off and they have to throw passengers or bags off the airplane at the last minute with a true weight and balance system |
Quoting GuitrThree (Reply 44): the pilot clearly stated this made the CRJ "Overweight for Landing," not out of CG. |
Quoting GuitrThree (Reply 44): But, in the end, they all fit. Why insist on gate checking if they meet the bin space requirements? |
Quoting GuitrThree (Reply 44): Yes, he explained exactly this. I'm not questioning his decision, it was a good one, what I'm questioning is why an "overweight" aircraft with the exact same load can take off (in this case land) legally because they simply moved the bags to another area. Based on what the pilot said, and the FAA rule of carry on -vs- gate checked, CG was never involved. If it was, those bags would have been spread throughout the cabin, not just the first few bins. |
Quoting GuitrThree (Reply 44): All of those bags removed from the aircraft's belly were ALL placed in the front few overhead bins, not scattered about. |
Quoting GuitrThree (Reply 44): I'm have no idea where the gate checked bags go on the underside of a CRJ, be it the rear or the front, but they were all in one area together and taken to another, together. |