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flyenthu
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The Advantage Of The 77W Versus 77L?

Wed Mar 06, 2013 4:19 pm

Maybe, this has been discussed before, but I am really curious about this. I have flown in the 77L only twice (IAH-DXB and back), but have flown in the 77W several times in ultra long haul sectors like IAH-DME-SIN; IAH-DXB etc. Both appear to work well for ultra long haul flights. I am wondering why the 77W is more popular than the 77L, given that, from what it appears to me, both fly long hauls to ultra long hauls.

Thank you!
 
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777222LR
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The Advantage Of The 77W Versus 77L?

Wed Mar 06, 2013 4:24 pm

Lower seat/mile cost than the 77L, more cargo, about the same trip costs.
 
DFWHeavy
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The Advantage Of The 77W Versus 77L?

Wed Mar 06, 2013 4:27 pm

You've kinda nailed it. They both fly really long routes, but the 77W is much more efficient if the destination ca be reached with it. The 77L is also very efficient, but less so than the 77W as the Cost Per Seat Mile is much lower on the 77W.

The 77L makes most sense for premium heavy routes or the super long routes that the 77W can't fly or can't carry cargo. The 77L can carry a lot of cargo for example on the DXB-IAH leg whereas the 77W will be much more limited because it has less range.

Even though the 77W has less range, today's version with the thrust available can still do some major hauling over very long distances.

Most find it more economical to just fly the 77W since the cost per seat is lower.
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flyinghippo
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The Advantage Of The 77W Versus 77L?

Wed Mar 06, 2013 4:35 pm

Since most of the major city pairs could be reached with 77W, airlines choose the capacity advantage (more paying passenger and cargo volume) of 77W while not needing to sacrifice anything significant.
 
flyenthu
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RE: The Advantage Of The 77W Versus 77L?

Wed Mar 06, 2013 8:28 pm

Makes perfect sense. Emirates IAH-DXB used to be a 77L, but last year it was a 77W. I am supposed to fly SQ 77W from IAH-SIN and then a 333 from SIN-CCU in July. Really looking forward to it. It is a lot of flying to say the least!  
 
PHX787
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RE: The Advantage Of The 77W Versus 77L?

Wed Mar 06, 2013 9:59 pm

DL's utilization of the 77L sort of confuses me. I understand their usage of it on ATL-JNB and LAX-SYD, but I mean I've flown it LAX-NRT, a route that I've flown before on an A330 and have seen flown on a 763. What's the meaning there? More seats on board?
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jfk777
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RE: The Advantage Of The 77W Versus 77L?

Wed Mar 06, 2013 10:02 pm

The 777-200LR is like a 777SP, its the similar engines that ae on a 777-300ER but the plane is smaller so it can fly about 1000 miles more. Some times flights are more then 16 hours which is about the limit of a 77W. Delta Atlanta-Johannesburg flight is a perfect example of where a 777LR makes it possible but a 77W wouldn't work.

Emirates and Cathay are the kings of getting their 77W to fly to any cities in the world. Dubai to Calfornia and Hong Kong to JFK are the extreme limits of the 777-300ER.
 
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RE: The Advantage Of The 77W Versus 77L?

Wed Mar 06, 2013 10:25 pm

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 5):
DL's utilization of the 77L sort of confuses me. I understand their usage of it on ATL-JNB and LAX-SYD, but I mean I've flown it LAX-NRT, a route that I've flown before on an A330 and have seen flown on a 763. What's the meaning there? More seats on board?

There are many reasons why the 77L was on the NRT route. It could've been a equipment switch due to a mechanical issue or the 77L was going to or coming off a maintenance cycle and this was an easy way to generate revenue as they positioned the aircraft.
 
DeltaB717
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RE: The Advantage Of The 77W Versus 77L?

Wed Mar 06, 2013 10:42 pm

Another possible reason for DL having the 77L on LAX-NRT is its ability to carry full pax and a LOT of cargo without impacting its ability to make the flight. I'd think even at full payload a 77L would easily make the distance?
 
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Zkpilot
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RE: The Advantage Of The 77W Versus 77L?

Thu Mar 07, 2013 12:33 am

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 6):
Emirates and Cathay are the kings of getting their 77W to fly to any cities in the world. Dubai to Calfornia and Hong Kong to JFK are the extreme limits of the 777-300ER.

Their advantage is that along the route toward the ends there are plenty of diversion airports should they find themselves having burnt more fuel/bad wx etc. Over ocean routes often don't have that option (MEL-LAX for example).
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LAXtoATL
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RE: The Advantage Of The 77W Versus 77L?

Thu Mar 07, 2013 12:55 am

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 5):
DL's utilization of the 77L sort of confuses me. I understand their usage of it on ATL-JNB and LAX-SYD, but I mean I've flown it LAX-NRT, a route that I've flown before on an A330 and have seen flown on a 763. What's the meaning there? More seats on board?

The 77L is on the NRT route for a combination of reasons...
1) Rotations. It swaps out at LAX with the SYD and ATL flights offering better utilization and backup in the event of a mechanical on one of the intl segments. It also rotates in NRT, but I don't know the routes off the top of my head it rotates with it in NRT.

2) Lie-flat seats installed early on this fleet and they wanted those seats in the NRT market.

3) There was a third reason when I started typing but I forgot  
 
PHX787
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RE: The Advantage Of The 77W Versus 77L?

Thu Mar 07, 2013 1:44 am

Quoting sonomaflyer (Reply 7):
There are many reasons why the 77L was on the NRT route. It could've been a equipment switch due to a mechanical issue or the 77L was going to or coming off a maintenance cycle and this was an easy way to generate revenue as they positioned the aircraft.
Quoting LAXtoATL (Reply 10):
1) Rotations. It swaps out at LAX with the SYD and ATL flights offering better utilization and backup in the event of a mechanical on one of the intl segments. It also rotates in NRT, but I don't know the routes off the top of my head it rotates with it in NRT.

Well Last summer (and up until now I believe until being switched to a 744 i belive in May) it was a 77L. Wouldn't be a tech swap.

It does rotate in NRT but to SIN, which is easily reachable with an A330. (I think HKG is also operated with a 77L, i gotta brush up on my DL routes from NRT)
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lightsaber
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RE: The Advantage Of The 77W Versus 77L?

Thu Mar 07, 2013 3:07 am

The 77W has superior resale. If there is a close call, the airline is likely to pick the longer model just for that reason.

Quoting DFWHeavy (Reply 2):
Most find it more economical to just fly the 77W since the cost per seat is lower.

  


Let's look at ranges in still air miles:
Less than 6000nm. About the same cost per flight and the 77W could carry more (cargo volume and seats).
From about 6000nm to 7500nm still air, either would work, but the 77W still has more seats to fill. So the 77L is only prefered for premium cargo routes, but either would work.
Above 7500nm (Still air), the 77L has a distinct cargo advantage and the 77W will start having to leave seats empty if its carrying any cargo (mostly likely the optimium revenue).

So it is a very narrow range where the 77L is superior.

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 6):
Dubai to Calfornia and Hong Kong to JFK are the extreme limits of the 777-300ER.

HKG to JFK is a great example where a 77L would work, but due to no other need in CX's network, there is no reason to buy the type. Thus, they will push the 77W. As PIPs come out, the 77W will only improve while the 77L is limited to its current volume.

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nrt1011
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RE: The Advantage Of The 77W Versus 77L?

Thu Mar 07, 2013 3:53 am

I am not sure on AC's future plans for mpore 77L's. I have flown AC from YVR to SYD many times and I think AC also uses the 77L from YYZ to HKG. They used to use it on NRT-YYZ before but my last trip was on a 77W. It seems the 77L's are now restricted to the most extreme trips only, I am not sure on European trips as I spend all my time in the Asia region and not Europe.
 
Viscount724
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RE: The Advantage Of The 77W Versus 77L?

Fri Mar 08, 2013 3:21 am

Quoting nrt1011 (Reply 13):
I have flown AC from YVR to SYD many times and I think AC also uses the 77L from YYZ to HKG.

AC currently uses the 77L from Toronto to HKG, PVG and via YVR to SYD.
 
Max Q
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RE: The Advantage Of The 77W Versus 77L?

Fri Mar 08, 2013 3:41 am

The other point to remember is that, while the 77W may be limited on some routes it is generally only in one direction, into the wind.


So while you may need to leave some pax and freight behind on the into wind leg you can return full with a tailwind.
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RickNRoll
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RE: The Advantage Of The 77W Versus 77L?

Sat Mar 09, 2013 8:22 am

Both manufacturers have brought out super long range planes, the 77L and the A345, apparently because there was supposed to be a demand for them. Both have not sold as many as the manufacturers expected.
 
LH707330
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RE: The Advantage Of The 77W Versus 77L?

Sun Mar 10, 2013 12:45 am

Quoting RickNRoll (Reply 16):
Both manufacturers have brought out super long range planes, the 77L and the A345, apparently because there was supposed to be a demand for them. Both have not sold as many as the manufacturers expected.

They were essentially done as freebies when their stretched siblings were being designed, and at the time fuel was cheaper so there were more profitable routes they could do.
 
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RE: The Advantage Of The 77W Versus 77L?

Sun Mar 10, 2013 3:06 am

Quoting LH707330 (Reply 17):
They were essentially done as freebies when their stretched siblings were being designed, and at the time fuel was cheaper so there were more profitable routes they could do.

The 77L in particular.

There are three 777"NG" airframes (those with GE90-110/115 power): the 77F, 77L and 77W.

Given that Boeing was going to develop the 77W and the 77F, and given that they'd already designed the 772, the 77L was basically already designed. With the possible exception of a few interior details, there are no parts on the 77L that aren't found on their the 77F or 77W. They share the same wing box, gear, wing, engines (a software plug is the only difference between the -110 and -115), cockpits, fuselage cross-section, interior design, pressurization systems, control systems, lights, etc. etc. etc.

So basically, they took a 77F and put a 772 interior in it and they were done. It wouldn't surprise me if the entire project cost less than $100M for design. Certification probably cost more than design.
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Viscount724
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RE: The Advantage Of The 77W Versus 77L?

Sun Mar 10, 2013 5:03 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 18):
So basically, they took a 77F and put a 772 interior in it and they were done. It wouldn't surprise me if the entire project cost less than $100M for design. Certification probably cost more than design.

The question is whether the 77L was really needed with only 58 orders in the 12 years since the program was launched (compared to 687 77W orders in the same period). Some 77L customers probably would have ordered the 77W and without the 77L Boeing could have expedited 77W deliveries.

Air India recently tried to sell 5 of their 8 77Ls but couldn't attract any interest.

[Edited 2013-03-09 21:04:54]
 
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sunrisevalley
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RE: The Advantage Of The 77W Versus 77L?

Sun Mar 10, 2013 12:33 pm

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 19):
Air India recently tried to sell 5 of their 8 77Ls but couldn't attract any interest.

There are a number of issues why they may not have been able to make a deal; condition, price and configuration to name three.
 
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Stitch
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RE: The Advantage Of The 77W Versus 77L?

Sun Mar 10, 2013 6:59 pm

The 777-200LR actually predated the 777 Freighter by five years - the former launched in February 2000 and the latter in May 2005.

The original plan for a C-market (beyond 8,000nm | 15,000km) was the 777-100X, which would have been a 12-frame shrink of the 777-200ER (3.8m removed forward of the wing and 2.6m aft of Section 44). High seat-mile costs seriously hampered the economics, however, so the proposal never really gained traction beyond a handful of airlines and when Airbus launched the A340-500, those airlines (like SQ, TG and EK) switched over to it.

The static wing test showed the basic 777 wing was good for a fair bit more TOW then originally planned so when Boeing started development on an Improved Gross Weight version of the 777-300, they also performed a study on the 777-200 to cover the C-Market. These became the 777-200X and 777-300X and the MTOW rose from a proposed ~320t to the final ~350t.

The 777-200X and 777-300X became, respectively, the 777-200LR and 777-300ER and were launched on 29 February 2000. EVA Air that placed the first order for the 777-200LR on 27 February 2000 and Japan Airlines placed the first order for the 777-300ER on 31 March 2000.

With only one customer for three frames and no new orders in sight, Boeing suspended development of the 777-200LR in October 2001 for a period of up to 18-months. The 777-300ER had 46 orders, so it continued on.

Pakistan International Airlines was the second customer to order the 777-200LR in 2002, but it was not until 2005 that the next set of customers (Air Canada and Emirates) signed up. Both also were customers for the 777 Freighter, which was launched on 23 May, 2005 and used the 777-200LR as it's foundation.

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