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av8orwalk
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Question About Hot Brakes

Tue Mar 12, 2013 12:33 pm

Saturday night I was returning from HNL to LAX on Hawaiian Airlines. I was extremely happy to see an Airbus 330-200 being towed into the gate about 2 hours before our 10:15pm departure. It was scheduled for a 767-300 earlier in the day, but I had never flown an A330, so this was a welcome change.

After we took a 30 minute gate delay due to the jetway being stuck at the plane, we made a short taxi to the runway. We were cleared for departure and on our way. We lined up at the end of the runway, and waited. Finally we began taxiing on the runway to a taxi way. The captain informed us that the brakes were hot and we were going to taxi to the end of the runway and back, and that will cool them down. After a 10 minute tour of the airport, we returned to the gate. The captain informed us that we would be there for about 30 minutes as the brakes cooled. Maintenance arrived at the plane and added fans to cool the brakes. After an additional 2 hour delay (I'm guessing 30 minutes didn't cool them), we were finally on our way.

My questions is this: How can the brakes be hot after the plane had been sitting at the gate for 2 hours? And to confuse me even more, I'm almost positive the plane had been sitting on the tarmac all day before our flight. I appreciate your discussions!

Cheers!
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flyby519
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RE: Question About Hot Brakes

Tue Mar 12, 2013 12:57 pm

Might have been a faulty indication showing that the brakes were hotter than they actually were.
 
rfields5421
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RE: Question About Hot Brakes

Tue Mar 12, 2013 1:46 pm

Brakes are used in taxi, more extensively than stopping the aircraft many times.

A long taxi to a takeoff runway in high heat and high humidity can easily heat the brakes above allowed temps.

Brakes have max temps allowed for takeoff because stowing the gear with hot brakes can cause a lot of problems. Sometimes a plane will take off with 'hot brakes' and fly with the gear extended for several minutes to aid in cooling them down to acceptable temps.
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AF1624
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RE: Question About Hot Brakes

Tue Mar 12, 2013 2:00 pm

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 2):
Brakes have max temps allowed for takeoff because stowing the gear with hot brakes can cause a lot of problems. Sometimes a plane will take off with 'hot brakes' and fly with the gear extended for several minutes to aid in cooling them down to acceptable temps.

It's not only that, but also, the maximum take off brake temperature must allow for a successful rejected take off to be operated. If the brakes are already too hot at the beginning of the take-off roll, and the latter is then aborted, you're up for big trouble.
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DarkSnowyNight
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RE: Question About Hot Brakes

Tue Mar 12, 2013 2:02 pm

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 2):
Brakes are used in taxi, more extensively than stopping the aircraft many times.

A long taxi to a takeoff runway in high heat and high humidity can easily heat the brakes above allowed temps.

Add to that that taxiing around like that also heats up tires and bearings a good bit and it's hard to fathom why that tour was a "good" idea.
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fr8mech
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RE: Question About Hot Brakes

Tue Mar 12, 2013 3:09 pm

If you only had a short taxi to the runway, then it was probably faulty indication.

Now, too many times pilots tend to believe what the aircraft is telling them even if it's contrary to what is happening.

The tour around the airport did not help, and in fact may have hurt. The wait time clearly didn't work. This is indicative of an indication problem.

My guess is that maintenance set up the fans (doesn't the A330 have brake fans?) to cool the brakes/wheel assemblies and they found that the indication still did not improve and someone finally realized that it was an indication issue and propmtly applied the MEL and off you went.

What maintenance should have done is use a non-contact thermometer and measure the brake temp and defer the item as quickly as possible.

Note: I was not there. I do not know all the circumstances. I do not know the whole timeline. This is supposition on my part.
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Starlionblue
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RE: Question About Hot Brakes

Tue Mar 12, 2013 3:14 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 5):
(doesn't the A330 have brake fans?)

I thought brake fans only worked when the wheels were moving.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
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fr8mech
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RE: Question About Hot Brakes

Tue Mar 12, 2013 3:30 pm

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 6):
I thought brake fans only worked when the wheels were moving.

The A300's brake fans can be turned on by the flight crew or will come on automatically at some preset temperature. Like I said, I don't know if the A330 even has them.

Looking at this picture:


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I think not.

[Edited 2013-03-12 08:34:30]
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flyingturtle
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RE: Question About Hot Brakes

Tue Mar 12, 2013 3:32 pm

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 2):
Brakes have max temps allowed for takeoff because stowing the gear with hot brakes can cause a lot of problems. Sometimes a plane will take off with 'hot brakes' and fly with the gear extended for several minutes to aid in cooling them down to acceptable temps.

A lot of problems - I'm reminded of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swissair_Flight_306 here.

How hot can these brakes get, by the way?


David
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DFWHeavy
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RE: Question About Hot Brakes

Tue Mar 12, 2013 3:51 pm

It had to be in indicator problem. Brakes wouldn't be hot for that long....and it was at night.
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glen
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RE: Question About Hot Brakes

Tue Mar 12, 2013 3:51 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 5):
doesn't the A330 have brake fans?

They are an option. We had them on the A332, but not on A333 any more (in order to save weight).

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 6):
I thought brake fans only worked when the wheels were moving.

They are switched on/off by the crew (on ground only, no automatic temperature control).

Quoting AF1624 (Reply 3):
It's not only that, but also, the maximum take off brake temperature must allow for a successful rejected take off to be operated. If the brakes are already too hot at the beginning of the take-off roll, and the latter is then aborted, you're up for big trouble.

That's the main reason to have them below a certain level for take-off. By breaking they transform the kinetic energy of the aircraft into heat. If they are already too hot in the beginning of a rejected take-off, they can't take enough energy no more.
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Tristarsteve
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RE: Question About Hot Brakes

Tue Mar 12, 2013 6:09 pm

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 8):
How hot can these brakes get, by the way?

On A320/330 the brake temp must be below 300degC before take off is started. (Or if the fans are running, below 150 degC). When the aircraft arrives at the gate after landing, the temps will be between 150 and 400 deg C. Temps above 300 deg are quite common, but the brakes cool down fast, even without fans. Most of these aircraft have fans, but not all.

p.s. the lower temp with fans running is because the fans cool the temp sensor as well.
 
VC-10
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RE: Question About Hot Brakes

Tue Mar 12, 2013 6:42 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 5):
it was probably faulty indication.

It is unusual to get faulty indication on all 8 brake units. One or possibly two on the same axle, but all eight? My point being, for the non-technical, one brake indicating hot is either indication or a binding brake. You eliminate the binding brake by jacking that axle up and spinning the wheel. If the spin check is OK and the brake doesn't feel to be hotter than the rest it is indication.

For all eight brakes to be hot either the pilot has been taxi-ing around with his feet on the brakes a touch or the brake metering system is mis-rigged but that would mean both sides were mis-rigged - unlikely.
 
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fr8mech
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RE: Question About Hot Brakes

Tue Mar 12, 2013 6:54 pm

Quoting VC-10 (Reply 12):
It is unusual to get faulty indication on all 8 brake units.

True, but doesn't the A330 have a black-box that controls the braking and/or steering. I'm not up to speed on many Airbus products, but I seem recall that the A300 has a box that monitors brake temps, among other things. So, there could be a single point failure that takes out the system. I know on the MD11, when that box fails, all kinds of fun things can happen on the flight deck.

Again, been a long time since I dealt with system on a 'bus.
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JBirdAV8r
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RE: Question About Hot Brakes

Tue Mar 12, 2013 10:51 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 5):
If you only had a short taxi to the runway, then it was probably faulty indication.

Now, too many times pilots tend to believe what the aircraft is telling them even if it's contrary to what is happening.

Well, to be fair, we can't exceed a limitation like that on our own. If it's broken, we need someone to tell us it's broken before we can go flying. We can't just assume. It's a lot easier to give it a minute, see if they cool down on their own, and try mitigation techniques before we resort to calling maintenance, which would potentially cause a longer delay. It's not that we're lemmings that just look slack-jawed at the displays and ask "What's it doing now?" If I took off with the aircraft indicating hot brakes, there's a good chance I'd get hauled in for the ol' carpet dance in front of the chief pilot. And "I don't see how it would have been possible for the brakes to really be that hot" is not an acceptable excuse.

And brake temperature limits are serious business. A high speed reject past the aircraft's actual Vmbe would be disastrous.
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VC-10
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RE: Question About Hot Brakes

Tue Mar 12, 2013 11:30 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 13):
doesn't the A330 have a black-box that controls the braking and/or steering.

Yes, the BSCU - Brake & Steering Control Unit. If you got called to an a/c with any brake temp problem the first thing you would do after to a BSCU reset, using the switch on the ctr instrument panel, would be a B.I.T.E. chk through the BSCU and that would flag up a box problem as well any thermocouple system defects.
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: Question About Hot Brakes

Tue Mar 12, 2013 11:37 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 7):
Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 6):
I thought brake fans only worked when the wheels were moving.

The A300's brake fans can be turned on by the flight crew or will come on automatically at some preset temperature. Like I said, I don't know if the A330 even has them.
Quoting glen (Reply 10):
Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 6):
I thought brake fans only worked when the wheels were moving.

They are switched on/off by the crew (on ground only, no automatic temperature control).

Thanks! Always learning here!
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fr8mech
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RE: Question About Hot Brakes

Wed Mar 13, 2013 12:23 am

Quoting JBirdAV8r (Reply 14):
Well, to be fair, we can't exceed a limitation like that on our own.

I understand that and agree with you. But, I think you can see my point in the matter also.

In the case of a hot brake or brakes, maintenance needs to be called immediately.

In a previous job capacity, I would have ripped the maintenance supervisor a new a***le for letting the situation go into a 2 hour delay. Again, that's assuming that the information we have received is correct.
When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
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You are not entitled to a public safe space.
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PGNCS
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RE: Question About Hot Brakes

Fri Mar 15, 2013 1:01 am

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 5):
Now, too many times pilots tend to believe what the aircraft is telling them even if it's contrary to what is happening.

What else do you want us to make decisions based on, particularly in an aircraft like an FBW Airbus that will flag any exceedance (like taking off with a hot brake ECAM) and effectively report us to the company for discipline?

Quoting JBirdAV8r (Reply 14):

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 5):
If you only had a short taxi to the runway, then it was probably faulty indication.

Now, too many times pilots tend to believe what the aircraft is telling them even if it's contrary to what is happening.


Well, to be fair, we can't exceed a limitation like that on our own. If it's broken, we need someone to tell us it's broken before we can go flying. We can't just assume. It's a lot easier to give it a minute, see if they cool down on their own, and try mitigation techniques before we resort to calling maintenance, which would potentially cause a longer delay. It's not that we're lemmings that just look slack-jawed at the displays and ask "What's it doing now?" If I took off with the aircraft indicating hot brakes, there's a good chance I'd get hauled in for the ol' carpet dance in front of the chief pilot. And "I don't see how it would have been possible for the brakes to really be that hot" is not an acceptable excuse.

Thank you JBirdAV8r; this was the reply I wanted to write but I see you already beat me to it. Well said.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 5):
Note: I was not there. I do not know all the circumstances. I do not know the whole timeline. This is supposition on my part.
Quoting fr8mech (Reply 17):

In a previous job capacity, I would have ripped the maintenance supervisor a new a***le for letting the situation go into a 2 hour delay. Again, that's assuming that the information we have received is correct.

That supposition and assumption business can get any of us into trouble; the fact is there is nothing else for the pilot to do but trust the ECAM (a quite dependable system in my 18 or so years of experience with it) in this case and follow the procedures outlined by Airbus and the operator.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 17):
In the case of a hot brake or brakes, maintenance needs to be called immediately.

Well maybe and maybe not. Why are they hot, and how hot are they? I've taxiied an A-320 out to 35L in DEN in August after a 30 minute turn, had them say they were at 305 C and simply taxiied clear and stopped the aircraft for them to cool (which is essentially what ECAM and printed guidance says to do.) What is maintenance going to do for me in that case? Nothing.
 
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CCA
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RE: Question About Hot Brakes

Fri Mar 15, 2013 8:51 am

It's a well known fact the A330 gets hot brakes for extended taxiing, happened to me several times we just notified ATC that we would require time at the holding point to let them drop below 300C a couple of times you were just unlucky and the ECAM goes off just as we lined up so we taxied off to let them cool. More taxiing certainly does not cool them down.

Assuming the Takeoff was normal we also left the gear down to cool them, that way they would be cooler on arrival and we may drop the gear early on arrival for the same effect. Brake fans are an option, good for short flights (KA has them) but expensive to carry around for longer flights (CX doesn't). Swapping of A/C between CX and KA has probably left some overlap.
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fr8mech
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RE: Question About Hot Brakes

Fri Mar 15, 2013 12:30 pm

Quoting PGNCS (Reply 18):
What else do you want us to make decisions based on, particularly in an aircraft like an FBW Airbus that will flag any exceedance (like taking off with a hot brake ECAM) and effectively report us to the company for discipline?


Hold on, slow down. I'm not saying the flight crew should have ignored the warning. I'm saying that they further delayed the the flight because they didn't take all the information available to them into account. A short taxi, absent a problem with the aircraft, should not produce hot brakes. I assume more than one, because the OP stated "fans" were used.

My take on this is that maintenance should be notified immediately if there is a problem on the ground, whether they can do anything or not, and advise on the situation. Maybe maintenance will say "wait it out", maybe they'll say "come on back."

Quoting PGNCS (Reply 18):
That supposition and assumption business can get any of us into trouble;


Which is why I provided that disclaimer. I was just providing my opinion based on the information provided. I try not to assume anything in the real world. I have contacted flight crews at home to gather greater detail on PiReps that could have been better, so as to avoid "assumptions".

Quoting PGNCS (Reply 18):
Why are they hot, and how hot are they? I've taxied an A-320 out to 35L in DEN in August after a 30 minute turn,


Yes, you used the information you had to make a decision that the brakes were probably hot because of the short turn time and high altitude. According to the OP, the aircraft had been at the gate for 2 hours, in the evening. That's important information when it comes to a hot brake indication.

Quoting CCA (Reply 19):
More taxiing certainly does not cool them down.


My point exactly. If he had a true hot brake situation, taxiing is the last thing you want to do. It just makes the situation worse, unless you're controlling speed with your reversers, which is a dubious practice, at best.

Again, I'm not trying to suggest the flight crew should have ignored the message because of conditions at the time of the event. I'm suggesting that they acted incorrectly and lengthened the delay unnecessarily.
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JBirdAV8r
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RE: Question About Hot Brakes

Fri Mar 15, 2013 1:03 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 20):
I'm suggesting that they acted incorrectly

If we called maintenance at the first indication of any glitch, no matter how minor, delays would skyrocket to levels that would blow your mind (plus we'd never be able to get hold of maintenance control anyway, the phones would always be busy).

You're making a pretty large assumption in taking the OP's words as absolute fact. It may not have happened exactly as he said.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 20):
lengthened the delay unnecessarily.

You can't reasonably say that.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 17):
In the case of a hot brake or brakes, maintenance needs to be called immediately.

On at least the aircraft I fly, there are basically three categories of brake temperature. Higher than a certain temperature, we must wait until the brakes cool back to a certain level before attempting takeoff. There's an additional temperature significantly higher than that which is the point that we would be required to call maintenance.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 17):
In a previous job capacity, I would have ripped the maintenance supervisor a new a***le for letting the situation go into a 2 hour delay.

That seems quite unreasonable.
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DarkSnowyNight
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RE: Question About Hot Brakes

Fri Mar 15, 2013 2:11 pm

Quoting JBirdAV8r (Reply 21):

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 17):
In a previous job capacity, I would have ripped the maintenance supervisor a new a***le for letting the situation go into a 2 hour delay.

That seems quite unreasonable.

Hmmm.. Perhaps that's why it was a previous capacity?   

Quoting JBirdAV8r (Reply 21):

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 20):
I'm suggesting that they acted incorrectly

If we called maintenance at the first indication of any glitch, no matter how minor, delays would skyrocket to levels that would blow your mind (plus we'd never be able to get hold of maintenance control anyway, the phones would always be busy).

Yeah, I have to agree with that too. I have plenty of line time, and even on a good day, MCC, MOC, or just MC company depending, almost always have hands full. Also depending on the company but more often than not, they'll just say MEL it and go anyway. Delays are hideously expensive, and not something anyone wants their name attached to when avoidable.

I'm not seeing what all the hurt feelings are about.
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fr8mech
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RE: Question About Hot Brakes

Fri Mar 15, 2013 2:16 pm

Quoting JBirdAV8r (Reply 21):
You're making a pretty large assumption in taking the OP's words as absolute fact. It may not have happened exactly as he said.


Exactly, and I have prefaced my responses based on that fact.

It could have been one wheel or a pair or a side or all of them.
The aircraft may have come off a turn and the OP mistaken.
His time at gate may have been wrong.
The taxi time to the runway may have been wrong.
He could have been mistaken about fans.

Quoting JBirdAV8r (Reply 21):
If we called maintenance at the first indication of any glitch, no matter how minor, delays would skyrocket to levels that would blow your mind (plus we'd never be able to get hold of maintenance control anyway, the phones would always be busy).


I don't know what happens on our flight decks, but I do know our procedures and maintenance control is to be contacted whenever an aircraft problem is detected after block-out and prior to flight. It sucks, it's unreasonable and it takes a whole lot of "pilot common-sense" out of the equation. And to be clear, we operate 230+ aircraft with somewhere just north of 1,000 segments a day.

Quoting JBirdAV8r (Reply 21):
That seems quite unreasonable.


Why? Based on the available information, the maintenance supervisor or lead should have been able confirm that the brakes were not hot and moved into the MEL process fairly quickly.

Now, I'll add that the OP doesn't talk about a fuel uplift and I can't imagine the aircraft would have been out that long without needing uplift. Possible, but we tend to cut our fuel pretty tight and I've seen uplift requests for relatively small taxi times. That's a mitigating circumstance that would have to be taken into account.

And, if they did fuel, did they do it while still assuming they had hot brakes?   
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Unless it's expressly prohibited, it's allowed.
You are not entitled to a public safe space.
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steinberger45
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RE: Question About Hot Brakes

Mon Mar 18, 2013 2:46 am

Just an opinion, Getting to an acft out on a taxiway or runway is always a pain. At most airports you will need an airport operations escort to the acft. I can believe an extended delay if maintenance has to come to a remote spot . Just getting the tooling together and getting to the acft can take an hour. All the newer Airbus acft have the brake fan option. Some airlines feel the fans are not needed. The fans make a tire change on a Bus more of a pain.
 
steinberger45
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RE: Question About Hot Brakes

Mon Mar 18, 2013 2:50 am

Oop's I didn't read the initial thread clear thru, Disregard my opinion. Sorry.
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Question About Hot Brakes

Tue Mar 26, 2013 7:13 am

Quoting av8orwalk (Thread starter):
How can the brakes be hot after the plane had been sitting at the gate for 2 hours

Was the brakes applied during the park.

Quoting flyby519 (Reply 1):
Might have been a faulty indication showing that the brakes were hotter than they actually were.

Practically feeling the brakes would confirm that.
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