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mayor
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RE: Why Was The L1011 So Popular With Pilots

Fri Apr 19, 2013 12:55 am

Quoting Archer (Reply 49):
There was a 500 version of the 1011. Maybe that's what I was thinking of.

Still no third gear........just fewer pax and more fuel
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Viscount724
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RE: Why Was The L1011 So Popular With Pilots

Fri Apr 19, 2013 1:01 am

Quoting L0VE2FLY (Reply 45):
Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 33):
990 was faster than heck.

I think she was the second fastest passenger jet ever made, next to the Concorde.

The 990 still never met the original speed (or range) projections, and when it did fly at maximum speed it was very uneconomic.
 
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jfklganyc
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RE: Why Was The L1011 So Popular With Pilots

Fri Apr 19, 2013 1:14 am

Speaking of RAF 1011s...there is one stranded in BDA on taxiway R all week. Word is it has some mx issues

Sexy plane
 
solarflyer22
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RE: Why Was The L1011 So Popular With Pilots

Fri Apr 19, 2013 1:23 am

Quoting NWAROOSTER (Reply 43):
What really hurt the L-1011 was the fact that Rolls Royce was in very dire straits and was unable to supply enough engines to Lockheed, thus forcing some airlines to buy the DC-10. If Rolls Royce was not on the edge of bankruptcy and possible demise, the L1011 would have ben a much more successful aircraft. Some airlines like Delta flew the DC-10 while waiting for the L-1011 engine shortage to be resolved.

Great, Great point. This was my recollection as well and RR actually went bankrupt at some point I think. I think if L-111 had been designed from the ground up with GE engines it would have been a real success.
 
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RE: Why Was The L1011 So Popular With Pilots

Fri Apr 19, 2013 1:30 am

Quoting ChiGB1973 (Reply 37):
When I started at TZ in 2002, they had the largest fleet of L-1011s in the world at 16.

That was my one and only ride on the L-1011. Took that beautiful bird to CUN and only went to fly on the L-1011.

My favorite aircraft by FAR! I just love that thing for some reason!
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HBGDS
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RE: Why Was The L1011 So Popular With Pilots

Fri Apr 19, 2013 2:09 am

Quoting Transpac787 (Reply 16):
I'm not sure there's a plane in existence that even remotely gets close to 2:1 T:W ratio. Just having a tad over 1:1 is good enough to accelerate doing pure vertical.

OK, Sorry for going a little off-topic. You are right. The closest is the F-22 Raptor: 1.61. If you want the full monty, the space shuttle at throttle up (110%) reached 3!
     
 
ezalpha
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RE: Why Was The L1011 So Popular With Pilots

Fri Apr 19, 2013 2:16 am

I recall visiting the ACA TriStar simulator back in the '70s. The pilot showing us around explained how they had looked at DC-10s and TriStars, but chose the latter. I distinctly recall him passing his hand across the the overhead panel, saying "just feel that, perfectly flat. Flush mounted push buttons. DC 10s are a forest of switches and knobs". Struck me as an odd thing to be fixated on, but he was the one flying them, I was on the other end of the mike. I recall working them in the M80 - .81 range. Slower than 747s, and about the same as '10s. I flew with Saudia a number of times. My recollection is the L101 was a quiet ride. The DC-10s not quite so. I like the looks of the DC10 better. I watch Fedex depart YYZ every day and when they're empty, (I'm assuming) it takes your breath away. It may not be 2:1, but out the window it sure looks like it! And while we're at it, I'm sure we had a private TriStar visit us last year. I might have been the year before, but no more than that. Don't recall who's it was though
 
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RE: Why Was The L1011 So Popular With Pilots

Fri Apr 19, 2013 2:34 am

Quoting g500 (Thread starter):
There are several airplanes out-there that seem to get the most compliments/praise from pilots. its understandable why pilots like airplanes like the 757, 747-400, and Gulfstream-V... Those are good looking machines that can do the job

The one airplane that I find surprising is the L1011. I've heard several good things about it from pilots that used to fly it..

So are you saying the L-1011 was NOT a good-looking machine and couldn't do the intended job?
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
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RE: Why Was The L1011 So Popular With Pilots

Fri Apr 19, 2013 2:53 am

Quoting kaitak (Reply 2):
I don't think I've ever met a pilot (or passenger) who had a bad word to say about it.
Quoting georgiaame (Reply 36):
(a passenger of steerage class) never cared for them. 2-5-2 was a bitch
Quoting georgiaame (Reply 36):
but for me, it made a big noise, it rolled down the runway, pointed itself into the air, made even more noise, landed, and got me to where I was going

I have flown the L-1011 as pax quite a few times (TWA, Eastern and LTU). I really disliked the plane - it was noisy and rumbled in the rear sections. There was just something about the cabin that lacked the ambience of the 747 or DC10. I think the DC10 was a superior plane for passenger comfort.
 
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RE: Why Was The L1011 So Popular With Pilots

Fri Apr 19, 2013 7:54 am

Quoting g500 (Reply 9):
Did it have the range for California-Asia???

Or was more like U.S to Europe and South America?

California-Asia was not really in the cards. The -1 was built for US transcon. The -200 could do JFK-LHR. The -500 had much greater range and could (barely) do LAX-NRT.

Note that I'm very roughly estimating here. Real ops would have a few more conditions than max payload range and the great circle mapper. 
Quoting tmoney (Reply 48):
I've never been on an L1011 so I'd never know how cool it is to have a lower galley.

I think the lower galley was nice for the crew. Peace and quiet. The pax could probably care less.

Quoting L0VE2FLY (Reply 45):
Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 33):
990 was faster than heck.

I think she was the second fastest passenger jet ever made, next to the Concorde.

The always forgotten Tu-144 is the fastest passenger jet ever made, making the 990 third.

[Edited 2013-04-19 00:56:06]
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Max Q
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RE: Why Was The L1011 So Popular With Pilots

Fri Apr 19, 2013 9:04 am

Normal cruise Mach on the magnificent Tristar was .83 - .84.


Of course it could easily go faster if needed.


Shame 411A is not here to contribute his love of this beautiful bird.


RIP 411A
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.


GGg
 
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DL_Mech
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RE: Why Was The L1011 So Popular With Pilots

Fri Apr 19, 2013 11:40 am

Quoting Max Q (Reply 60):
Shame 411A is not here to contribute his love of this beautiful bird.


RIP 411A

Or 474218......

RIP Carl
This plane is built to withstand anything... except a bad pilot.
 
daviation
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RE: Why Was The L1011 So Popular With Pilots

Fri Apr 19, 2013 1:53 pm

If you're an L-1011 fan, you must read this book; it's all about flying in the cockpit of a Delta Tristar:

"Frequent Flyer," Bob Reiss, pub 1994 by Simon & Schuster, long out of print but available in the second-hand market. ISBN 0671776509
PlaneFlown:717,727,737,747,757,767,777,DC8,DC9,DC10,L1011,F100,A300,319,320,321,330,340,CRJ,ERJ,E190,Av85,DH8,Beaver,ATR
 
Pihero
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RE: Why Was The L1011 So Popular With Pilots

Fri Apr 19, 2013 6:40 pm

I flew the Tristar from 1984 to 1990 and these were some of the most enjoyable years of my career.
The first impression that strikes you when you entered the cockpit was how large it was and nothing could be compared to it until the A3801 capme along : then, how well that cockpit was laid : Uncluttered system panels with light-switches, the clearest flight and engine displays so far seen on an airliner, a logically laid warning panel... everything was breathing conscious, deliberate intent of making that flight deck the best office for an airline pilot.
The Tristar had the best coordinated flight controls a pilot could dream of : the all-flying tailplane was actuated by a fast-rotating jackscrew it was attached to... an impressive piece of engineering... the ailerons/spoilers were as smooth as a kiss of breeze on a calm pond... it was an absolute delight to fly.
The DLC... it required a few sim sessions to gat used to. During an approach, high on the glide, you'd push the control column and... nothing happens, the nose stays where it was... but suddenly you realise that you're now looking at an all red VASI !.. so you start integrating the whole geometry of the approach, the horizon, the runway, the amount of sky...
There was also a feature few pêople talk about : the thumb wheel trim, a miniature of the wheel for elevator trim, but you could set it with an uncanny precision, contrarily to the usual thumb switches which brutally start a motor that you can't really control.
To say the Tristar was a pilot's plane could be seen in the delight most of us shared at her controls.
.. And then, the first FMS, The first modular navigation system (IRSs were continuously updated by DME/DME, VOR/D.).. all on the system's choice. No silly manipulation for introducing - and forcing - each IRS to accept an update in which you also had to input the altitude of the Navaid.
And then, the Cat 3 capability, only shared with Air Inter Caravelles and Mercure and BEA Tridents. Made life a lot easier for us in suddenly uncrowded skies. Bragging rights in crew bars above the pilots of **other airplanes** was sweet... and the beers, too !
Yes, the Lady was in many ways ahead of her time, but the heritage still lingers : one just needs to look at an Airbus system diagram to be on familiar grounds : the PTU for instance...
Some Hosties were complaining about the marked nose-up attitude of the Tristar in cruise : Sign of a low Mach, as at .85 M, at which we flew her, the floor was level.
The Lady Tristar : One of the fondest memories of my dying career.
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G500
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RE: Why Was The L1011 So Popular With Pilots

Fri Apr 19, 2013 8:02 pm

Quoting Pihero (Reply 63):

thanks for the post, enjoyed reading it
 
Geezer
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RE: Why Was The L1011 So Popular With Pilots

Fri Apr 19, 2013 9:00 pm

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 10):
it was killed by economic and business factors that don't reflect the airplane's capabilities.

I read a book a while back about Lockheed that had quite a bit about the L-1011 in it; despite the fact that all the pilots flying it loved it, at the time, Rolls Royce was in a very shakey financial position, which is what caused Delta Airlines not to buy the additional 20 planes they had planned on;

The second reason probably had even more to do with it's overall lack of commercial success; at the time, prior to Lockheed bringing the L-1011 to the commercial market, most commercial planes were all coming from Douglas and Boeing, both of whom were MUCH better at the day to day "catering" to the needs of the airlines; at the same time, Lockheed had for a long time been used to dealing with the military procurement people; according to the author, when Lockheed attempted to deal with the airlines the same way, they effectively caused themselves many needless problems; so even though the airlines all loved Lockheed's product, they couldn't stand Lockheed's business attitude; that fact along with RR's problems was just enough to prevent what is arguably one of the finest commercial transports ever, to fail, simply for lack of orders; it should also be noted that Lockheed came very near to going bankrupt because of the Tri Star's failure. ( Even though the early years of the DC 10 were anything but trouble free. )

Quoting g500 (Reply 64):
Quoting Pihero (Reply 63):

thanks for the post, enjoyed reading it

I'd like to second that; I enjoy reading everything Pihero writes.
Stupidity: Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result; Albert Einstein
 
Viscount724
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RE: Why Was The L1011 So Popular With Pilots

Fri Apr 19, 2013 9:14 pm

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 59):
Quoting g500 (Reply 9):
Did it have the range for California-Asia???

Or was more like U.S to Europe and South America?

California-Asia was not really in the cards. The -1 was built for US transcon. The -200 could do JFK-LHR. The -500 had much greater range and could (barely) do LAX-NRT.

When DL operated the L-1011-500 LAX-HKG the routing included a stop at ANC in both directions.
 
Pihero
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RE: Why Was The L1011 So Popular With Pilots

Fri Apr 19, 2013 10:14 pm

What really rang the end of the Tristar was fuel economy.
In the late eighties, my airline decided on buying 763 ERs.
I did not wish to type-rate on it as I really did love the Lady and I had already made up my mind to return to France.
One of my colleagues who became a training captain on the 76 saw it : He told me one day that as a matter of fact, the Tristar and the 76 had the same total fuel flow figures.. problem was the 76 was in lbs and the Tristar in kg. A bit of an exaggeration but not really that much.

I also remember that we got an influx of ex-DC-10, ex-Laker Airways people and they did not like the Lady : "A real airplane has switches and not gismo light thingies !", they used to say. Took the bastards not very long to appreciate how easy it was to operate compared to the '10...except a few engineers who resented the lengthy pre-descent validation procedure of the Dual Autoland and they often were scandalously happy saying :"Skipper, we have a DANA !" ( DANA was an acronym for *dual autoland not available*, of which there were two sorts : soft or hard).

Although not digital, the autopilot system was incredibly smooth and accurate. Cross wind on the ILS, it would track the Localiser with a forward slip, before introducing a measure of crab angle for - IIRC - xwinds in excess of 20 kt... and I remember the face of the 742 trainer when I used the Tristar technique !

Another aspect which is not well known is that the Lady had the lowest decision height on Cat 3 operations :15 ft at CDG and LHR and I remember BA thought of a 12 ft DH at one time... those DHs are still unmatched to this day.
Two reasons for these low minima : the precision of the autopilot system and the DLC : on a go around, even at 15 ft, it was just impossible to hit the runway : the first result of TOGA was to immediately retract the DLC spoilers, giving us an immediate 6 or 7 tons of lift and ZoooooM ! Up we went !


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Jorge Abreu


On this picture, there are a few features to notice : the strictly horizontal line of the coaming, which helped a lot on visual approaches, the well laid out autoflight panel, the chart holders that remain vertical ( they're attached to the top of the control column and not part of the wheels and the flight engineers handles on the throttles so that he doesn't disturb the pilots ...    ...everything is designed for ease of operations and comfort

...and finally, the Lady in her glory


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © M.Oertle




@ g500 and Geezer, many thanks !

[Edited 2013-04-19 15:16:21]
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DualQual
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RE: Why Was The L1011 So Popular With Pilots

Fri Apr 19, 2013 10:20 pm

Quoting Archer (Reply 39):
The 1011 International version probably could do California to Asia. It had the 3rd landing gear so you could always tell
it was international. Not sure if it could do that far.
Quoting mayor (Reply 50):
Still no third gear........just fewer pax and more fuel

There was a difference between the -500 and the -1. If you look at the tail intake for the #2 engine, the -500 featured a more aerodynamic "join" between the bottom of the nacelle and the fuselage.
There's no known cure for stupid
 
Pihero
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RE: Why Was The L1011 So Popular With Pilots

Fri Apr 19, 2013 11:03 pm

Quoting DualQual (Reply 68):
There was a difference between the -500 and the -1. If you look at the tail intake for the #2 engine, the -500 featured a more aerodynamic "join" between the bottom of the nacelle and the fuselage.

...called the "Frisbee fairing", for the engineer who designed it ( yes, the one who made a fortune with the flying frisbee )
The Tristar 200, from the factory had it. A few -100s became , with the -524 engines virtual -200s, without the fairing. To my knowledge, it had never been retrofitted.
This is a real -200 :

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Frank C. Duarte Jr.



and this is a -200 from a -100 :

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Frank C. Duarte Jr.



A4O-TV was the epitomical hangar queen, so that she was nicknamed "Tango Vicious" by the aircrews.
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Polot
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RE: Why Was The L1011 So Popular With Pilots

Fri Apr 19, 2013 11:53 pm

Quoting Pihero (Reply 69):
...called the "Frisbee fairing", for the engineer who designed it ( yes, the one who made a fortune with the flying frisbee )

While the Frisbee fairing is in fact named after the engineer who designed it, he had nothing to do with the toy frisbees.

Quoting Pihero (Reply 69):
To my knowledge, it had never been retrofitted.

It was available as a retrofit, but I don't know how many L1011s were retrofitted.

Same L1011, with and without the Frisbee fairing:


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Thomas Greenlandy Williges
View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © J.Laporte



A quick google search seems to indicate TWA retrofitted their entire fleet, not sure about other airlines.

[Edited 2013-04-19 16:55:17]
 
Aircellist
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RE: Why Was The L1011 So Popular With Pilots

Sat Apr 20, 2013 2:23 am

Pihero, those two posts of yours are great!

Merci beaucoup!
"When I find out I was wrong, I change my mind. What do you do?" -attributed to John Maynard Keynes
 
MD-90
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RE: Why Was The L1011 So Popular With Pilots

Sat Apr 20, 2013 2:25 am

Quoting Pihero (Reply 63):
Yes, the Lady was in many ways ahead of her time, but the heritage still lingers : one just needs to look at an Airbus system diagram to be on familiar grounds : the PTU for instance...

So how did Lockheed engineering manage to influence later Airbus designs?
 
lax777lr
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RE: Why Was The L1011 So Popular With Pilots

Sat Apr 20, 2013 4:15 am

Great comments! I flew on her on DL from LAX-JFK in C in '95 and it was fantastic. I hear nothing but gushing comments from the cockpit crews

Quoting Pihero (Reply 67):
 
Max Q
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RE: Why Was The L1011 So Popular With Pilots

Sat Apr 20, 2013 6:38 am

Quoting DL_Mech (Reply 61):


Quoting Max Q (Reply 60):
Shame 411A is not here to contribute his love of this beautiful bird.


RIP 411A

Or 474218......

RIP Carl

likewise, sorry ! did not know.
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.


GGg
 
Max Q
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RE: Why Was The L1011 So Popular With Pilots

Sat Apr 20, 2013 6:53 am

Quoting Pihero (Reply 63):
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

I flew the Tristar from 1984 to 1990 and these were some of the most enjoyable years of my career.
The first impression that strikes you when you entered the cockpit was how large it was and nothing could be compared to it until the A3801 capme along : then, how well that cockpit was laid : Uncluttered system panels with light-switches, the clearest flight and engine displays so far seen on an airliner, a logically laid warning panel... everything was breathing conscious, deliberate intent of making that flight deck the best office for an airline pilot.
The Tristar had the best coordinated flight controls a pilot could dream of : the all-flying tailplane was actuated by a fast-rotating jackscrew it was attached to... an impressive piece of engineering... the ailerons/spoilers were as smooth as a kiss of breeze on a calm pond... it was an absolute delight to fly.
The DLC... it required a few sim sessions to gat used to. During an approach, high on the glide, you'd push the control column and... nothing happens, the nose stays where it was... but suddenly you realise that you're now looking at an all red VASI !.. so you start integrating the whole geometry of the approach, the horizon, the runway, the amount of sky...
There was also a feature few pêople talk about : the thumb wheel trim, a miniature of the wheel for elevator trim, but you could set it with an uncanny precision, contrarily to the usual thumb switches which brutally start a motor that you can't really control.
To say the Tristar was a pilot's plane could be seen in the delight most of us shared at her controls.
.. And then, the first FMS, The first modular navigation system (IRSs were continuously updated by DME/DME, VOR/D.).. all on the system's choice. No silly manipulation for introducing - and forcing - each IRS to accept an update in which you also had to input the altitude of the Navaid.
And then, the Cat 3 capability, only shared with Air Inter Caravelles and Mercure and BEA Tridents. Made life a lot easier for us in suddenly uncrowded skies. Bragging rights in crew bars above the pilots of **other airplanes** was sweet... and the beers, too !
Yes, the Lady was in many ways ahead of her time, but the heritage still lingers : one just needs to look at an Airbus system diagram to be on familiar grounds : the PTU for instance...
Some Hosties were complaining about the marked nose-up attitude of the Tristar in cruise : Sign of a low Mach, as at .85 M, at which we flew her, the floor was level.
The Lady Tristar : One of the fondest memories of my dying career.


Contrail designer

What a superb post and thank you Pihero.


The closest I ever got to flying the Tristar was a couple of hours in the simulator with my father, which, as a student Pilot at the time just could not have impressed me more, I distinctly remember the thumb wheel rotary trim, its incredible power and perfectly linear, smooth control. The only thing I have experienced remotely close to that was the cruise trim switch on the B727.



I was fortunate enough to fly on a few trips with my Father on the L1011 in those days, I could sit on the jumpseat as long as I wanted and was always there for every take off and landing.


What an Aircraft, your description of the personal experience of flying it was more than just a technical delight but a real personal and excellent tribute to one of the best Aircraft ever made.
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.


GGg
 
Tristarsteve
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RE: Why Was The L1011 So Popular With Pilots

Sat Apr 20, 2013 10:38 am

Quoting Pihero (Reply 63):
the all-flying tailplane was actuated by a fast-rotating jackscrew it was attached to... an impressive piece of engineering..

Actually the horizontal stabiliser was moved by four hydraulic jacks, one on each hyd system. They were enormous, over two metres long retracted. You could climb up through a hatch and stand on the hor stab to work on them. A very dangerous place and we all unfailingly fitted the big red lock out tool to the control column before entering.

I think the Tristar was the most advanced mechanical/analogue airliner. Lockheed had gone as far as it could. The mechanical controls that ran the hor stab were a marvellous collection of servos and rotating rods that joined them together. A servo the size of a dishwasher each side of the tail, and around four rotating rods that sequenced them.
I enjoyed my 10 years as a L1011 maintenance engineer, mostly at Gulf Air (might have known you, I left 1987) There was no BITE at all, you had to know how the system worked. There was a FIRM/FIM manual which the flight engineers used to give us a clue, but it didn't help that much.
 
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DL_Mech
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RE: Why Was The L1011 So Popular With Pilots

Sat Apr 20, 2013 12:26 pm

Quoting DL_Mech (Reply 61):
Or 474218......

RIP Carl

Here is Carls' obituary for those interested:

http://www.avpress.com/obit-archive.php?obit=31324811

Quoting Pihero (Reply 67):
:"Skipper, we have a DANA !" ( DANA was an acronym for *dual autoland not available*,

I do not miss working to repair a DANA light.....Well, maybe a little.

Quoting Tristarsteve (Reply 76):
. A very dangerous place and we all unfailingly fitted the big red lock out tool to the control column before entering.

Not only could the stabilizer crush you to death, everything was coated in slippery Skydrol with exposed Hi-Loks everywhere.
This plane is built to withstand anything... except a bad pilot.
 
BravoOne
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RE: Why Was The L1011 So Popular With Pilots

Sat Apr 20, 2013 2:26 pm

Quoting cubastar (Reply 24):
Quoting cubastar (Reply 24):
I believe that at one time, Delta had some pilots that had flown the 747, DC-10 and the L1011. Almost all of them agreed that the L10 was their favorite widebody to fly.

There may have been a couple of DAL pilots that flew all three but only a few if that. When DAL and WAL merged a number of the WAL DC10 pilots moved over to the L1011. The L1011 was ceratinly a great flying machine. As I recall the DC10 was limited to something around 350kts IAS in the descent which was considerably slower than the L1011. It was pretty easy to get ahead of a DC10 during the let down in say, HNL.

DAL had six DC10's prior to or just as their L1011's were coming on line. I think they got around nine in the WAL merger and most of these remined west cost to the islands until they were replaced.
 
Pihero
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RE: Why Was The L1011 So Popular With Pilots

Sat Apr 20, 2013 6:47 pm

Quoting Polot (Reply 70):
While the Frisbee fairing is in fact named after the engineer who designed it, he had nothing to do with the toy frisbees.

I did not know that... it was common wisdom then. I gladly stand corrected.

Quoting Tristarsteve (Reply 76):
Actually the horizontal stabiliser was moved by four hydraulic jacks, one on each hyd system

Thanks for the correction. I tryped too quick and forgot *system*. That is a feature than 747 maintenance engineers were most impressed with... brings down the then *queen of the skies* a peg.

Quoting Tristarsteve (Reply 76):
(might have known you )

... and shared a beer, too !

Quoting Max Q (Reply 75):
What an Aircraft, your description of the personal experience of flying it was more than just a technical delight but a real personal and excellent tribute to one of the best Aircraft ever made.

   Blush !
Off topic : what then do you think of my idea to open a series of threads titled " Great airplanes I flew " which would include the Convair 580, the Twin Otter, the DA-20, the DC-4 along with 731 and 2...etc... better known types ?
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intsim
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RE: Why Was The L1011 So Popular With Pilots

Sat Apr 20, 2013 7:18 pm

Quoting Pihero (Reply 79):
Off topic : what then do you think of my idea to open a series of threads titled " Great airplanes I flew " which would include the Convair 580, the Twin Otter, the DA-20, the DC-4 along with 731 and 2...etc... better known types ?

(brown nose) I think it would be fascinating! It is always nice to read posts such as yours. Especially your accounts here. I was lucky enough to fly DAL L10s between SLC and PDX, and to Hawaii. Meeeemories.

Maybe it will be the beginings of a book!  

Edit: And thank you for everyone's info here. I learned a lot about this great beast. (browner nose)

[Edited 2013-04-20 12:20:21]
 
Viscount724
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RE: Why Was The L1011 So Popular With Pilots

Sat Apr 20, 2013 9:13 pm

Quoting BravoOne (Reply 78):

DAL had six DC10's prior to or just as their L1011's were coming on line.

Almost. Five, not six.
 
Pihero
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RE: Why Was The L1011 So Popular With Pilots

Sat Apr 20, 2013 10:09 pm

Quoting Polot (Reply 70):
A quick google search seems to indicate TWA retrofitted their entire fleet, not sure about other airlines.

Didn't know that either. Thanks.

One last aspect flying the Tristar and it's about two engine takeoff for ferry back. ( of course for one dead wing engine )
Starts with a lot of preparation, computation from Lockheed for performance on the planned runway : length, obstacles... everything.... the dead engine fan would be blocked in order to prevent it from windmilling... weight would be kept as low as possible ( off with containers, catering, water... ) no cabin crew, the only occupants were the flight deck crew and some hardy-souled ground engineers.. ( yes, yes there were quite a few of them !).
The technique was fun :
- First set max trim against the live engine and aligned with the runway, verify that you have TOGA performance on the live wing engine... then reduce to idle
- Second , verify the same on the # 2 and leave it there
- Third, release the brakes
- Fourth, copilot announces ASI readings every ten knots and FE sets and calls out these figures for N1 on live wing engine, in order to avoid too high a thrust assymetry ( Vmcg is rather high ) so it sounded as " 50 knots...N one fifty... 60 knots... N one sixty... until by some 100 kt, we'd achieved full thrust... then you'd be past the *commit speed*after which, you won't have enough runway to stop... "Rotate !" and up you go.
- As the pilot, you just keep a hand on the triim wheel, keep her on the runway centerline with a lot of foot initially... once airborne, you're back with the love of your life with almost the same performance as she's very light.

The whole thing was a bit of an act of faith... in yourself, your crewmates and the aircraft.

DC-10 / MD 11 pilots, is your technique the same ?
Contrail designer
 
BravoOne
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RE: Why Was The L1011 So Popular With Pilots

Sun Apr 21, 2013 1:19 am

Quoting BravoOne (Reply 78):

DAL had six DC10's prior to or just as their L1011's were coming on line.


Almost. Five, not six.


Well since you brought it up I thought I should look it up as five sounded a little light. Actually my records show they had ten at the ime of the DAL merger and that did not include the -30 which had been gone for some time by then. Good thing you were not on the WAL merger committee at that time!
 
Max Q
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RE: Why Was The L1011 So Popular With Pilots

Sun Apr 21, 2013 6:46 am

Quoting Pihero (Reply 79):

Off topic : what then do you think of my idea to open a series of threads titled " Great airplanes I flew " which would include the Convair 580, the Twin Otter, the DA-20, the DC-4 along with 731 and 2...etc... better known types ?

I think it's a superb idea Pihero.


It would be tremendously enjoyable reading up on other Pilots experience on on different types and I'd be happy to contribute my own modest ones.


Best wishes.
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.


GGg
 
David L
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RE: Why Was The L1011 So Popular With Pilots

Sun Apr 21, 2013 9:52 am

Quoting Pihero (Reply 79):
what then do you think of my idea to open a series of threads titled " Great airplanes I flew "

Bring it on.  
Quoting Pihero (Reply 67):
"A real airplane has switches and not gismo light thingies !", they used to say

Plus ҫa change...
 
SAAFNAV
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RE: Why Was The L1011 So Popular With Pilots

Sun Apr 21, 2013 10:56 am

Quoting mayor (Reply 44):
Quoting Pihero (Reply 79):

Blush !
Off topic : what then do you think of my idea to open a series of threads titled " Great airplanes I flew " which would include the Convair 580, the Twin Otter, the DA-20, the DC-4 along with 731 and 2...etc... better known types ?

I'd love to read it, and I would buy your book as well!

Erich
L-382 Loadmaster; ex C-130B Navigator
 
Tristarsteve
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RE: Why Was The L1011 So Popular With Pilots

Sun Apr 21, 2013 11:15 am

Quoting Pihero (Reply 82):
One last aspect flying the Tristar and it's about two engine takeoff for ferry back.

Yes, I have been in the flight deck for two of those. A 22B from MCT and a 524B from KHI, both to BAH.
What the crew never explained was that there was no V1. After rotation, you had to accelerate to a speed when an engine failure did not mean you went down again. On a summer daytime departure from MCT it seemed like ages.
Made you look extra hard when you were boroscoping the good engines.
 
BravoOne
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RE: Why Was The L1011 So Popular With Pilots

Sun Apr 21, 2013 11:38 am

Quoting Pihero (Reply 67):
"A real airplane has switches and not gismo light thingies !", they used to say


Yes and on the L1011 they latched and unlatched as you may recall. Nice airplane for sure.
 
travelavnut
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RE: Why Was The L1011 So Popular With Pilots

Sun Apr 21, 2013 12:31 pm

Quoting Pihero (Reply 79):
Off topic : what then do you think of my idea to open a series of threads titled " Great airplanes I flew " which would include the Convair 580, the Twin Otter, the DA-20, the DC-4 along with 731 and 2...etc... better known types ?

Would love to read about the 731!!

Quoting SAAFNAV (Reply 86):
I'd love to read it, and I would buy your book as well!

Same here...


Quoting Pihero (Reply 82):
of course for one dead wing engine

I'm probably missing something obvious, but why of course a wing engine? 2 engine ferry with dead #2 isn't possible?!
Live From Amsterdam!
 
Pihero
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RE: Why Was The L1011 So Popular With Pilots

Sun Apr 21, 2013 12:40 pm

Quoting Tristarsteve (Reply 87):
Made you look extra hard when you were boroscoping the good engines.

and it was never a worry for us crews.
The maintenance was the best I ever saw in an airline. You were truly an outstanding team .

Quoting BravoOne (Reply 88):
Yes and on the L1011 they latched and unlatched as you may recall.

That I don't certainly recall.
On the other hand, the weirdest thing in the systems was the RCCBs, *remote controlled circuit breakers * a flight engineer's nightmare when trying to know what systems were behind a simple cb. IIRC, and Tristarsteve could correct me, part of the pressurisation / air conditioning was on the same circuit - therefore cb - as the toilet flushing system ( the first computer controlled by a chip).
Contrail designer
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: Why Was The L1011 So Popular With Pilots

Sun Apr 21, 2013 1:27 pm

Quoting Tristarsteve (Reply 87):
What the crew never explained was that there was no V1. After rotation, you had to accelerate to a speed when an engine failure did not mean you went down again.

V1 at brake release?

Quoting travelavnut (Reply 89):
Quoting Pihero (Reply 82):
of course for one dead wing engine

I'm probably missing something obvious, but why of course a wing engine? 2 engine ferry with dead #2 isn't possible?!

Probably a simpler proposition given symmetrical thrust.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
Pihero
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RE: Why Was The L1011 So Popular With Pilots

Sun Apr 21, 2013 4:53 pm

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 91):
V1 at brake release?

Just about
  

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 91):
Probably a simpler proposition given symmetrical thrust.

Piloting wise, yes.
Yet the airplane prep is similar (includes the engine boroscope Tristasteve has mentione and I forgot.
Contrail designer
 
Tristarsteve
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RE: Why Was The L1011 So Popular With Pilots

Sun Apr 21, 2013 6:45 pm

Quoting Pihero (Reply 92):
Yet the airplane prep is similar (includes the engine boroscope Tristasteve has mentione and I forgot.

Part of the prep included making sure that both nosewheel tyres had good tread on them, because they wore out during the take off!!
and cleaning out the oil from the Air Driven Pump air exhaust ducts. These pumps were rarely used, but in a two engine operation they will run continuosly.
 
Aircellist
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RE: Why Was The L1011 So Popular With Pilots

Sun Apr 21, 2013 11:50 pm

Quoting Pihero (Reply 79):
Off topic : what then do you think of my idea to open a series of threads titled " Great airplanes I flew " which would include the Convair 580, the Twin Otter, the DA-20, the DC-4 along with 731 and 2...etc... better known types ?

Please do!

Once, in Toulouse, our flight back to Montréal was postponed 24h because the Air Transat Tristar had swallowed a bird on approach, and the plane was ferried on two engines to… Memory fails me, it was in England. We had a replacement aircraft coming from Ireland the next day.

Honestly, your relation of the two-engined take-off is fascinating.
"When I find out I was wrong, I change my mind. What do you do?" -attributed to John Maynard Keynes
 
Viscount724
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RE: Why Was The L1011 So Popular With Pilots

Mon Apr 22, 2013 1:07 am

Quoting BravoOne (Reply 83):
Quoting BravoOne (Reply 78):

DAL had six DC10's prior to or just as their L1011's were coming on line.


Almost. Five, not six.


Well since you brought it up I thought I should look it up as five sounded a little light. Actually my records show they had ten at the ime of the DAL merger and that did not include the -30 which had been gone for some time by then. Good thing you were not on the WAL merger committee at that time!

You were referring to the DL (not Western) DC-10s "pror to or just as their L1011's were coming on line". Those were the 5 I was referring to, and all fleet lists I can find do show that there were five at that time. They all went to UA as more L-1011s were delivered.
 
cornutt
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RE: Why Was The L1011 So Popular With Pilots

Mon Apr 22, 2013 2:22 am

Quoting solarflyer22 (Reply 53):
This was my recollection as well and RR actually went bankrupt at some point I think.

The British government stepped in and saved R-R from bankruptcy by nationalizing them. But the delays in the RB211 program had in turn gotten Lockheed in trouble. The U.S. government bailed out Lockheed by making them a loan (long since repaid, with interest). It was quite controversial in the U.S. at the time; the rationale for the bailout was provided by the DoD which feared shutdown of military programs that Lockheed was working on.

It was during the nationalization period that the Rolls-Royce automotive and aerospace operations became separated. The aerospace side remained nationalized until the late 1980s when it was finally re-privatized as Rolls-Royce plc. The automotive operation has been through some strange twists and turns since then. Nowdays, BMW owns the rights to use the Rolls-Royce name and logo in the automotive world.
 
BravoOne
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RE: Why Was The L1011 So Popular With Pilots

Mon Apr 22, 2013 10:18 am

Okay I see where the misunderstnding came from. You are correct regarding the UAL/DC10's that Delta leased prior to the L10's coming onboard. Thanks for the clarification.
 
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Aaron747
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RE: Why Was The L1011 So Popular With Pilots

Mon Apr 22, 2013 11:44 pm

Unfortunately, I only had the pleasure of one trip on the Tristar in 1995, to the airport in the pic below. I was too young then to appreciate the magic of the machine, but your stories have confirmed all we know to be true now. Quite telling when seasoned flyboys refer to an aircraft as "Lady". One thing I am always curious about is how common it is to see trim angles like these in shots taken after landing:

http://cdn-www.airliners.net/aviation-photos/photos/4/7/1/1312174.jpg
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: Why Was The L1011 So Popular With Pilots

Tue Apr 23, 2013 1:38 am

Quoting aaron747 (Reply 98):
One thing I am always curious about is how common it is to see trim angles like these in shots taken after landing:

In the case of this aircraft, that's not necessarily trim angle. Since the Tristar had an all flying tail I presume that pulling back on the yoke will give you that sort of deflection.

[Edited 2013-04-22 18:41:17]
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo

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