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Quoting Gonzalo (Thread starter): Was this cancellation a consequence of the crew being "suspended", "punished" or something like that ? |
Quoting Amsterdam (Reply 6): Without knowing the reason of the pilots for continueing their approach and landing, not much can be said about this. |
Quote: The return flight AT-673 was cancelled. The occurrence aircraft positioned back to Morocco as flight AT-8173 departing Gatwick after about 90 minutes on the ground. |
Quoting jetblastdubai (Reply 12): I've worked in FAA towers as well as ICAO towers and when working with ex-UK controllers I was very surprised to witness their technique of withholding a landing clearance until the preceding aircraft is completely clear of the runway. Extremely conservative technique. The biggest issue is that most aircraft end up getting their landing clearance on very short final when cockpit workload is high and communications should be avoided during this critical phase of flight if possible. |
Quoting d l x (Reply 14): A go around at 150 feet? I'm not a pilot, so help me out. But isn't it the case that if you try to go around at that low an altitude, the tires are still likely to contact the runway because there isn't enough time for the jets to spool up? |
Quoting U2380 (Reply 10): Indeed I once heard of a crew continuing the approach and landing despite an ATC go-around instruction as they had descended through their Asymmetric Committal Altitude, which is of course the correct action to have taken. |
Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 11): That was my first thought that they simply didn't understand ATC command. I know you're supposed to have level 4 English ability but some of these guys get on the PA and I have no clue what they just said. |
Quoting audioace87 (Reply 21): 150 AGL? Perhaps he was already below his decision height and decided it was safer to proceed with landing? |
Quoting catiii (Reply 18): The tower will also need a really go reason for creating a situation that necessitated a go around call that close in. |
Quoting CXfirst (Reply 24): The fact (if article is correct that is) that the pilot acknowledged the go-around makes this issue even bigger. |
Quoting GCT64 (Reply 26): I have no knowledge of this incident, but LGW is the busiest single runway airport in the world and operates close to full capacity for most of the day, consequently late clearances and go-arounds are much more frequent occurances than elsewhere. |
Quoting jetblastdubai (Reply 12): I've worked in FAA towers as well as ICAO towers and when working with ex-UK controllers I was very surprised to witness their technique of withholding a landing clearance until the preceding aircraft is completely clear of the runway. Extremely conservative technique. |
Quoting catiii (Reply 18): The tower will also need a really go reason for creating a situation that necessitated a go around call that close in. |
Quoting d l x (Reply 14): I'm not a pilot, so help me out. But isn't it the case that if you try to go around at that low an altitude, the tires are still likely to contact the runway because there isn't enough time for the jets to spool up? |
Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 13): 1.- The controller separated the wind information from the Go Around Call with the word "DISREGARD". I don't know if this word is commonly accepted within standard phraseology to cancel a previous instruction and issue a new one. |
Quoting Dogbreath (Reply 19): A GoAround can be completed at any time up till engine reverse thrust is selected. For information, the typical height loss during a GA in a B737 is approx 40 feet. The lowest height that I've personally conducted a GA in a B737-800, is 50 feet and we never made contact with the runway. Making contact with the runway during a low altitude GA (such as a CAT3 autoland) is to be expected and considered to be normal. There seems to be some misconception on this forum and others (AVHerald) that a GA shouldn't be conducted below a certain altitude, or that it's a dangerous action. Not true. As I mentioned before a GA can be carried out up till the thrust levers are placed to idle reverse (ie when on the runway), and is a simple action to carry out. A single press of the TOGA button starts the GA phase. |
Quoting jetblastdubai (Reply 27): The article says "runway 26L". Did they get a parallel runway or is this an editorial oversight? |
Quoting type-rated (Reply 9): Then they will decide to either accept the excuse or make a complaint to the airline who in turn will dole out the punishment if that is the course they choose to do. |
Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 16): Since it was presumed to be Moroccan pilots flying a Moroccan aircraft at a UK airport - I doubt there is anything the UK could do as far as fines or suspensions of pilot licenses. |
Quoting jetblastdubai (Reply 27): The article says "runway 26L". Did they get a parallel runway or is this an editorial oversight? |
Quoting catiii (Reply 26): Quoting GCT64 (Reply 26): I have no knowledge of this incident, but LGW is the busiest single runway airport in the world and operates close to full capacity for most of the day, consequently late clearances and go-arounds are much more frequent occurances than elsewhere. So? That doesn't mean that the controllers need to create a crappy circumstance. |
Quoting Mir (Reply 28): Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 13): 1.- The controller separated the wind information from the Go Around Call with the word "DISREGARD". I don't know if this word is commonly accepted within standard phraseology to cancel a previous instruction and issue a new one. "Correction" is more common for issuing different instructions while you're talking. "Disregard" is normally used when you've issued instructions and then just want to wipe the slate clean, not issue new instructions. With that said, it should have been clear what was meant. |
Quoting bond007 (Reply 17): Although this is common in the UK and rest of Europe in my experience, which is very different from the US, where visual approaches are the norm when weather permits, and landing clearances are given 3 or 4 aircraft out. When I've flown into Gatwick it's nothing except ILS approaches on sunny days, and landing clearances on short-final. |
Quoting readytotaxi (Reply 31): The country which controls the airspace where the incident happens has no control over any action against the crew if they are not nationals? |
Quoting Mir (Reply 28): but to be fair, this could have just as easily happened in a US-like environment where the crew already had their landing clearance but for whatever reason the controller felt it necessary to issue a go-around on short final and the crew either misunderstood or ignored it. |
Quoting sccutler (Reply 7): But you cannot fill a thimble with what we know now, and so we can do well what users of the Great Global InterWebz do so very well: speculate without the merest hint of actual knowledge! |
Quoting aviatorcraig (Reply 33): How can you issue a landing clearance to an aircraft 3 or 4 out on approach when you cannot guarantee the runway is going to be clear? |
Quoting readytotaxi (Reply 31): Can I get some thing clarified here pls. The country which controls the airspace where the incident happens has no control over any action against the crew if they are not nationals? |
Quoting mandala499 (Reply 34): It depends on the law of the country it occured in. |
Quoting aviatorcraig (Reply 33): How can you issue a landing clearance to an aircraft 3 or 4 out on approach when you cannot guarantee the runway is going to be clear? The correct phrase should be "Land after...whatever plane is ahead", which gives approval for landing but leaves responsibility for separation (on the available runway length before the un-vacated aircraft) with the captain. |
Quoting jetblastdubai (Reply 35): If spacing deteriorated or if #1 was slow exiting the runway, the ONLY thing the controller would say is "XXX123, go around". Simple, concise and absolutely no extra words or phrases to filter out (if the recipient is not a native English-speaker) |
Quoting aviatorcraig (Reply 33): The correct phrase should be "Land after...whatever plane is ahead", which gives approval for landing but leaves responsibility for separation (on the available runway length before the un-vacated aircraft) with the captain. |
Quoting jetblastdubai (Reply 39): At any major airport the normal transfer of communication point is the FAF or approx. 4-6 miles from touchdown. At the most you could have 3 cleared to land but #1 would have to be very near touchdown for the pieces to fall into place. |
Quoting David L (Reply 41): I have no practical experience in this area but I'd think it's fairly safe to assume the controller didn't begin the wind information with the intention of issuing a go-around. It seems to me he was about to issue a landing clearance but something changed his mind before he got to it. |
Quoting bond007 (Reply 42): Well it could be much farther out for a visual approach, when the airport is in sight, which is common in the US and rare in the UK. |
Quoting jetblastdubai (Reply 39): "Land after" doesn't exist anywhere in ICAO or FAA docs. |
Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 13): 2.- The biggest one, according to the article, the flight crew AKNOWLEDGED the Go Around instruction. I know the different parts of the world can have issues with the pronunciation of sentences in English, but "Clear to land" and "Go Around" sounds very different. |
Quoting readytotaxi (Reply 31): Can I get some thing clarified here pls. The country which controls the airspace where the incident happens has no control over any action against the crew if they are not nationals? |
Quoting jetblastdubai (Reply 45): ot a good way to have a long, healthy ATC career when you're responsible for separating aircraft that are not on your frequency. |
Quoting Fabo (Reply 48): As I read the original comment, I understood it to mean "approach controller is responsible for the airplanes to come to tower in specific separation/distance one after another" not that he is the one responsible for separation on final. |