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vs773er
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Fastest To Accelerate Aircraft?

Wed Feb 05, 2014 7:37 pm

Right, a bit of a 'how long is a piece of string' question here, but always wondered if it's something that can be measured in any logical way; Is there a particular aircraft that can accelerate faster than others simply down to having a better thrust/weight balance? I realise it's entirely down to thrust setting, weight, wind, pressure etc. in normal ops but with regards the sensation of power or 'G' does one stand out as feeling more powerful than others?

If there is a 'yes' answer to this, I think it would be down to it being an inefficient a/c to operate by today's margins. For example, i've read somewhere (on here) once that the '57 (with RRs?) has a meaty feel at any setting for t/o and being regarded as generously powered, even at the most efficient power settings (relative to any other aircraft in it's class).

The question was asked by my 4 year old on a 738 last week, I knew I couldn't enter into all the factors involved but it got me thinking, there must be a model which pilots feel they have to tame – no matter what fuel saving procedure's they try and worked too!?

[Edited 2014-02-05 12:27:07]
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OV735
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RE: Fastest To Accelerate Aircraft?

Wed Feb 05, 2014 8:29 pm

Leaving military hardware aside, the 757 is a good bet. I've seen one rotate within a dozen-ish seconds (it was lightly loaded, obviously). An empty 747 (or any other high-capacity long-haul aircraft) will also take off quite rapidly - and will climb as if God was holding a magnet.
 
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seabosdca
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RE: Fastest To Accelerate Aircraft?

Wed Feb 05, 2014 8:43 pm

Acceleration (as opposed to climb performance, which is more complicated) is a pretty straightforward matter of thrust/weight, with a drag component added in at higher speeds.

For fully loaded aircraft, the best T/W ratios are found on the CRJ-700, 717-200, 737-700, and 757-200. No Airbuses or widebodies are quite as powerful as those per pound.

At lighter loads, the T/W ratio for any widebody can get pretty ridiculous. The most extreme acceleration I've ever personally felt in an aircraft was on an empty 767-300ER.

[Edited 2014-02-05 12:43:53]
 
bond007
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RE: Fastest To Accelerate Aircraft?

Wed Feb 05, 2014 9:29 pm

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 2):
For fully loaded aircraft, the best T/W ratios are found on the CRJ-700, 717-200, 737-700, and 757-200.

Yes, I always thought the 717 had plenty of excess power!

... as an aside, a friend of mine used to own a Turbo Thrush for crop dusting. He simply used to takeoff from wherever he was parked - it always appeared as if the wheels were off in a matter of a few seconds! He also used to carry passengers in the hopper - but that's another story!


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oly720man
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RE: Fastest To Accelerate Aircraft?

Wed Feb 05, 2014 9:42 pm

Concorde probably had the fastest acceleration in civil aircraft.
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Fabo
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RE: Fastest To Accelerate Aircraft?

Thu Feb 06, 2014 8:37 pm

Quoting oly720man (Reply 4):

Concorde probably had the fastest acceleration in civil aircraft.

Any sources for that?

I would actually expect it not to perform too well. The engines were made for supersonic cruise. They could have been quite abysmal by comparison on the ground.
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timz
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RE: Fastest To Accelerate Aircraft?

Thu Feb 06, 2014 11:01 pm

You don't think Concorde engines produced 38000 lb each at sea level?

If by chance they did, doesn't an empty Concorde have more thrust per unit of mass than any other empty airliner?
 
thegeek
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RE: Fastest To Accelerate Aircraft?

Fri Feb 07, 2014 12:21 am

Even out of afterburner, the Concorde would win.
T/W = 0.697 for a 767-200ER when empty.
vs Concorde T/W = 0.737 w/o A/B
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Fastest To Accelerate Aircraft?

Fri Feb 07, 2014 1:06 am

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 2):
At lighter loads, the T/W ratio for any widebody can get pretty ridiculous. The most extreme acceleration I've ever personally felt in an aircraft was on an empty 767-300ER.

For me it was an empty 744 from SFO to ORD (3.5-4 hour flight in a 14 hour plane with maybe 20 pax.) We took off of RWY 19L at SFO, (not sure why) which requires a very rapid climb and a sharp left turn for noise abatement. Felt like a Ferrari. I had no idea the 744 could do that.
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mayor
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RE: Fastest To Accelerate Aircraft?

Fri Feb 07, 2014 1:22 am

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 2):
At lighter loads, the T/W ratio for any widebody can get pretty ridiculous. The most extreme acceleration I've ever personally felt in an aircraft was on an empty 767-300ER.

Not a widebody, but mine was a Delta DC -8-71 and it was full. Was also on a half full MD-11, PDX-LAX.......really quite quick getting off the ground.
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prebennorholm
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RE: Fastest To Accelerate Aircraft?

Fri Feb 07, 2014 2:25 am

Quoting Fabo (Reply 5):
Quoting oly720man (Reply 4):
Concorde probably had the fastest acceleration in civil aircraft.
Any sources for that?

I would actually expect it not to perform too well. The engines were made for supersonic cruise. They could have been quite abysmal by comparison on the ground.

At MTOW the Concorde wasn't especially high powered, T/W ratio 0.373 / 1. For that reason (and for the very high VR speed) i needed a 11,800 ft runway.

An "empty" Concorde is a different thing. But what can it be used for? It doesn't mean much to empty the cabin since payload was some 10 tonnes while fuel load for a TATL flight was around 100 tonnes. Full or empty cabin would hardly be noticeable.

All twin planes are somewhat better than that. They need to be better in order to take off safely on one engine after V1.

The winner is likely the DC-9-21 (DC-9 Sport), at least when talking jet planes. But I am pretty sure some turboprop planes accelerate even better. The most pressure I have had on my back was on a DHC Dash-7 (nickname Windmill Farm).

I have been on a DC-9-21 several times, but only for rather short flights from quite noise sensitive airports with long runways, and the flight crews seemed to choose little more than half power to make them more welcome next day.
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thegeek
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RE: Fastest To Accelerate Aircraft?

Fri Feb 07, 2014 5:10 am

At MTOW, the dc-9-21 is still behind Concorde at MTOW.
 
a320fan
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RE: Fastest To Accelerate Aircraft?

Fri Feb 07, 2014 7:42 am

An empty 77L is very impressive. Would be very easy to overspeed the flaps or bust an altitude restriction if using full power. I don't know what the thrust to weight ratio of this aircraft empty is.
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Mir
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RE: Fastest To Accelerate Aircraft?

Fri Feb 07, 2014 8:25 am

I'd have to imagine there are some business jets on the list as well - some of them are quite overpowered in order to help with engine-out climb performance.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 8):
We took off of RWY 19L at SFO, (not sure why) which requires a very rapid climb and a sharp left turn for noise abatement.

The noise of running into a mountain, yes.  

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Clydenairways
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RE: Fastest To Accelerate Aircraft?

Fri Feb 07, 2014 11:02 am

Quoting VS773ER (Thread starter):
Right, a bit of a 'how long is a piece of string' question here, but always wondered if it's something that can be measured in any logical way; Is there a particular aircraft that can accelerate faster than others simply down to having a better thrust/weight balance? I realise it's entirely down to thrust setting, weight, wind, pressure etc. in normal ops but with regards the sensation of power or 'G' does one stand out as feeling more powerful than others?

#

What exactly are you trying to measure, acceleration on the runway for take-off or acceleration in the air? I suspect there would be different answers for both.
Are you talking about whats the quickest at going from 0 to 140KTS for example along a runway?
 
BoeingGuy
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RE: Fastest To Accelerate Aircraft?

Fri Feb 07, 2014 7:20 pm

Quoting a320fan (Reply 12):
An empty 77L is very impressive. Would be very easy to overspeed the flaps or bust an altitude restriction if using full power. I don't know what the thrust to weight ratio of this aircraft empty is.

Even the 777-300ER can be a real hot rod for such a huge airplane. That's what 115,000 pounds of thrust x 2 will do. The 777-200LR is a slightly smaller airplane with the same engines so it's no less hot.

Pilots have said that when they do empty paint ferry flights with the 77W with underated takeoff thrust, they have timed brake release to airborne to be as little is 17, or less, seconds. One Boeing pilot told me they were taking a 77W out of PDX on a paint flight and hear a WN pilot on the radio saying, "Whoa!!!!!" when they go airborne so fast.

Another pilot told me that when you push TO/GA on the 77W for a lightly loaded Boeing flight, you get slammed right back into your seat.
 
FlyMKG
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RE: Fastest To Accelerate Aircraft?

Fri Feb 07, 2014 8:41 pm

Our Boeing Super 27s have 56,000 lbs of thrust and a MTOW of 203,100 lbs. With no cargo and enough gas for a 10 minute flight (~120,000 lbs), we are easily off the ground in 3000 feet or 15 seconds. It's quite a pain to keep it graceful once its in the air.

FlyMKG

[Edited 2014-02-07 12:47:47]
 
Pihero
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RE: Fastest To Accelerate Aircraft?

Fri Feb 07, 2014 9:15 pm

There is a very simple way to compute the potential acceleration of an airplane :
As Accel = F/M where F is the thrust (in newtons) and M the mass (in kg), just multiply the thrust-to-weight ratio by gravity ( 9.82, rounded to 10 )
The formula is siumplistic as the drag rises with the aircraft speed. Just assume it's proportional to the aircraft size, then can be dismissed.
Now you can play with all the mass possibilities you want.
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BoeingGuy
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RE: Fastest To Accelerate Aircraft?

Fri Feb 07, 2014 10:46 pm

Quoting FlyMKG (Reply 16):
Our Boeing Super 27s have 56,000 lbs of thrust and a MTOW of 203,100 lbs.

What is a Super 27? 727-200?
 
njxc500
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RE: Fastest To Accelerate Aircraft?

Fri Feb 07, 2014 11:44 pm

Quoting prebennorholm (Reply 10):
An "empty" Concorde is a different thing. But what can it be used for?

It's not useful for anything except a fun ride around the patch..... Having said that I had to go and compute some theoretical "empty" thrust ratios......in case you ever took off without fuel and payload.

Concorde ---- 173,500 lbs. Empty 152,000 lbs. Thrust ....... .88
752 --------------127,800 lbs empty. 87,000 lbs. Thrust .......... .68
77W -------------353,600 lbs empty. 230,600 lbs. Thrust ......... .65
BBD Global5k - 48,800 lbs empty. 29,500 lbs. Thrust .......... .60

I thought the bizjet would be higher than it is, but that Concorde must have been a rocket empty!
 
prebennorholm
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RE: Fastest To Accelerate Aircraft?

Sat Feb 08, 2014 2:55 am

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 18):
What is a Super 27? 727-200?

It's a re-engined 727-200 with JT8D-200 engines on position 1 and 3, while retaining the old JT8D on #2.

That gives a little extra power, but more important, it reduces noise to not forbidden levels, while also reducing fuel consumption.
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trijetsonly
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RE: Fastest To Accelerate Aircraft?

Sat Feb 08, 2014 8:27 pm

I have something in my mind that the A310 is very fast accelerating. Does anyone have data or experiences?
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