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B-HOP
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B757-200 And A320 Short Runway Performance

Fri Apr 25, 2014 5:14 pm

Can a 757-200, 737-800 and A320 (IAE engine) takeoff from a 5000 feet runway with say 75% pax and their pax and a ton of cargo and fly 3.5 hours on a hot day (32c). If their is a large obstracle in front and a sharp turn would take place after 1km, how high would the aircraft be, many thanks.

Also are there any runway that use one way system where landings comes in from the sea but take off to the different direction? (Due to terrain in front, for example).

Many thanks

Kev
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smittyone
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RE: B757-200 And A320 Short Runway Performance

Fri Apr 25, 2014 9:02 pm

I don't know about the A320, but Boeing publishes "detailed technical characteristics" in PDF format on their website...including runway requirements to legally take off at various weights and temperatures/density altitudes.

You could make some assumptions and use the tables there to get a rough idea of the runway requirements for your scenario for the 757 and 737.

http://www.boeing.com/boeing/commercial/airports/plan_manuals.page
 
vikkyvik
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RE: B757-200 And A320 Short Runway Performance

Fri Apr 25, 2014 10:40 pm

Quoting B-HOP (Thread starter):
Also are there any runway that use one way system where landings comes in from the sea but take off to the different direction? (Due to terrain in front, for example).

Runway 14-32 at BOS. Landings on 32 only, takeoffs on 14 only.
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Stitch
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RE: B757-200 And A320 Short Runway Performance

Fri Apr 25, 2014 11:48 pm

Boeing does offer a Short Field Performance Package for it is standard on the 737-900ER and optional on all other models) that allows for increased payload at take off (400 pounds for the 736/73G and 2000 pounds for the 738/739) and landing (4000 pounds for the 736/73G and 8000 pounds for the 737/739) out of fields with runways at or below 5000 feet. A number of operators have specced this package for at least part of their fleet. GOL launched it on the 737-800 in 2006 for use at the 4300 foot strip at Santos Dumont airstrip in Rio de Janeiro.

http://www.aero-news.net/index.cfm?d...18ee8a-3ed9-460c-a5b3-262d076f11f2

http://www.mediafire.com/view/?wakre609yn4lkhk

Quoting smittyone (Reply 1):
I don't know about the A320, but Boeing publishes "detailed technical characteristics" in PDF format on their website...including runway requirements to legally take off at various weights and temperatures/density altitudes.

Airbus offers the same.

http://www.airbus.com/support/mainte...h=22935adfac92fcbbd4ba4e1441d13383
 
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hufftheweevil
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RE: B757-200 And A320 Short Runway Performance

Fri Apr 25, 2014 11:48 pm

Quoting B-HOP (Thread starter):
Also are there any runway that use one way system where landings comes in from the sea but take off to the different direction? (Due to terrain in front, for example).

From a river, not a sea: Runway 8-26 at PHL. Landings on 26 only, takeoffs on 8 only. Due to terminal building off the end off the west end.

Also, another non-sea one: That famous runway in Nepal that is on the side of a mountain. It is sloped quite a bit and you can only land uphill, takeoff downhill.
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erzr2
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RE: B757-200 And A320 Short Runway Performance

Fri Apr 25, 2014 11:59 pm

If we're adding non-sea- Courchevel, CVF, that'll really challenge your short field capabilities. No hope of an Airbus or Boeing of any type there though.
 
B-HOP
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RE: B757-200 And A320 Short Runway Performance

Sat Apr 26, 2014 3:15 am

Thanks, it seems A320 can go pretty far even with on a 5000 feet runway, still looking at 757 though
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KC135Hydraulics
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RE: B757-200 And A320 Short Runway Performance

Sat Apr 26, 2014 8:26 pm

Quoting B-HOP (Reply 6):
Thanks, it seems A320 can go pretty far even with on a 5000 feet runway, still looking at 757 though

Let us know what factual data you come up with. I would think that the 757's performance would be outstanding given its thrust-to-weight ratio and that low wing sweep.
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kcrwflyer
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RE: B757-200 And A320 Short Runway Performance

Sun Apr 27, 2014 12:39 am

Quoting B-HOP (Reply 6):
Thanks, it seems A320 can go pretty far even with on a 5000 feet runway, still looking at 757 though

The 757 will beat it off the ground and to whatever altitude you want to take it to. 757 outperforms the 320 in every runway/climb scenario I can imagine.
 
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hufftheweevil
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RE: B757-200 And A320 Short Runway Performance

Sun Apr 27, 2014 4:06 am

Quoting kcrwflyer (Reply 8):
The 757 will beat it off the ground and to whatever altitude you want to take it to. 757 outperforms the 320 in every runway/climb scenario I can imagine.

Plenty of examples on Youtube. Just search "757 short field takeoff". Some great clips on there!
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longhauler
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RE: B757-200 And A320 Short Runway Performance

Sun Apr 27, 2014 4:45 am

Quoting kcrwflyer (Reply 8):
757 outperforms the 320 in every runway/climb scenario I can imagine.

Yes, that big thick old technology 1970s wing and oversized engines will do it every time. But, as airline accountants don't care how fast it can get off the ground, the A320 series outsold the B757 by about 10 to 1. And is still in production.

Using our performance computer, I show 71,300 Kgs for a 5000' runway, 30C, 29.92 and calm winds. CFM-56 engines. That is enough to carry 140 passengers for your 3 1/2 flight, YYZ-YXE, with a YQR alternate.

The B757 will definately get off the ground quicker ... but in cruise those big engines are burning more, and that thick wing is causing a lot of drag. So it comes down to mission requirements, and just how much cost are you ready to overlook.
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Natflyer
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RE: B757-200 And A320 Short Runway Performance

Sun Apr 27, 2014 1:25 pm

I show 92.500 kgs for a B757-200W off a 5000' runway at 32°C. That would take a full load (about 180) pax and about 14.000 kgs (about 3 hrs) fuel or 75% LF (135 pax) and 19.000 kgs of fuel which would give you a 4,5 hr sector.
 
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RE: B757-200 And A320 Short Runway Performance

Tue May 13, 2014 4:51 pm

It seems my theoretical runway could take a 310,000lb 767 at those condition, wonder would that give at least 3 hours with a 80,000lb fuel? The reason I interested in all this is as Hong Kong are discussing a third runway, I was looking (dreaming) at whether a piece of land that is 1.5km with some building on one end suitable as the third runway for point to point regional airport and within reasonable distance from East Kowloon, just like GMP, HND etc, instead of building off the sea and finish the sealife

Cheers

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BreninTW
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RE: B757-200 And A320 Short Runway Performance

Wed May 14, 2014 1:00 am

Are they still considering the third runway or has construction actually started? I flew through HKG four times in the past couple of weeks and I saw plenty of dredging going on around the airport as well as what looked like the beginnings of construction of an artificial island.
 
B-HOP
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RE: B757-200 And A320 Short Runway Performance

Wed May 14, 2014 2:09 pm

That is the manmade island for customs and immigration for Hong Kong-Macau-Zhuhai Bridge. BTW, would them remove Song Shan Airport at any point, how many flights goes in and out there per day? and does it affect building heights in Taipei city?

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BreninTW
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RE: B757-200 And A320 Short Runway Performance

Thu May 15, 2014 2:45 am

Quoting B-HOP (Reply 14):
would them remove Song Shan Airport at any point

I doubt TSA would be removed any time soon -- it's a reasonably busy airport and extremely popular for business travel to PRC, Korea and Tokyo, as well as the essential airlinks to various outlying islands. It is also a military base.

The presence of TSA does affect buildings in Taipei -- when Taipei 101 was being built, it had the potential to interfere with flight paths. There were multiple lawsuits launched with allegations that the building permit had been improperly approved. Eventually it was settled out of court with the CAA changing flight paths to ensure flight safety.
 
mandala499
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RE: B757-200 And A320 Short Runway Performance

Sun May 18, 2014 9:32 am

Quoting B-HOP (Thread starter):
takeoff from a 5000 feet runway with say 75% pax and their pax and a ton of cargo and fly 3.5 hours on a hot day (32c).

A320 using quick reference table (longhauler's perf comp numbers are better), using CONF3 at 30C, shows 65..5 tons TOW for IAE V2500-A5s and 66.1 for the CFM56-6Bs...
For both engines 8 Tons of fuel for trip, or so... so you need to have expected landing weight at destination (ZFW + holding fuel + alternate) of about 57.5 tons... less about 3 tons for the hold, reserves, and alternates... 54.5 tons for aircraft and pax and cargo... The difference fuel burn between the 2 engines in 3.5hrs would only be about 100 - 150kgs of fuel.
I don't have the 1500m runway numbers for CONF 1+F and CONF2 for A320.

For 737-800 with SFP, it's about 60 tons on flap 5, 58tons on flap 15 for T/O at 30C.

The turn due to obstacles, well, as long as it can reach 400ft before the turn, it's OK, how close? As close as you can't avoid if it's done visually. Of course, the description isn't enough to determine whether it's possible or not.

Quoting B-HOP (Thread starter):
Also are there any runway that use one way system where landings comes in from the sea but take off to the different direction? (Due to terrain in front, for example).

LOTS of places! Where I am, we have Tarakan, Tanjung Pinang... for "sharp turn damn close to the runway if you go 1 direction" we have Ambon... and then 'tight visual only on 1 end' we have Jayapura, and lots of other places...
But doing it with a marginal runway is going to be a but too dodgy...
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gkirk
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RE: B757-200 And A320 Short Runway Performance

Sun May 18, 2014 11:07 am

Take Skiathos for example. A 752 can make it back to the UK nonstop. A32S/B737s require a stop
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SwedeBAW
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RE: B757-200 And A320 Short Runway Performance

Tue Jun 03, 2014 11:15 am

Hej All

When I worked for Thomas Cook as cabin crew I often flew the JSI / LGSK run on the Boeing 752 and that bird really accelerated on takeoff and we were able to fly nonstop to NCL / EGNT (which is around 1,550 miles) with a full load of pax. I have only flown on one TCX flight on a Airbus A320 from Skiathos to Gatwick with a very light load of pax (around 15%) and we were able to make it without a refueling stop but all other flights on the A320 and A321 from that lovely Greek island have a tech stop on the return sector.

By the way the runway at Skiathos is 5,341ft long and the elevation is around 50ft and the B752 was easily able to take off in the heat of the day.

Our Captains always commented that the B752 was well suited to short runways often found in Greece. They also suggested that the RR B752 was massively over powered, hence why she is loved by some charter airlines in Europe. If we look at Monarch Airlines. They have largely replaced their Boeing 752 fleet with the Airbus A321. However they been forced to retain (for the time being at least) a number of Boeing 752’s to use on those routes were their Airbus A321’s just does not have the performance needed.

As for your second question I understand that at Dalaman (Mugla) airport in Turkey (DLM / LTBS) crews prefer to land on runway 01 which means you approach in over the sea. The other runway is 19, however you have to pass over some very tricky terrain (it’s by no means impossible, but the pilots I flew with did not like approaching onto runway 19). I guess the classic for landing over the sea is Saint Maarten (SXM / TNCM) but I am sure there are many more airports out there which prefer over water approaches due to terrain or noise abatement procedures etc.

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TheSonntag
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RE: B757-200 And A320 Short Runway Performance

Tue Jun 03, 2014 1:39 pm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8OI0oTv6aGc

A little bit longer (arund 1.800m) and no real commercial flight, but still,  
 
daviation
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RE: B757-200 And A320 Short Runway Performance

Thu Jun 05, 2014 12:39 am

Here is a real-life situation that I am very curious about:

Next year, I am traveling EWR-LAX-LIH-LAX-EWR. The LIH-LAX legs are operated by HA on the 763ER. The runway at LIH is 6500 feet, sea-level, about 80 degrees F.

Obviously the plane is capable of operating the leg if HA is scheduling it. But what are the actual techniques? Increased flap at takeoff? Full-throttle takeoff? Less cargo? It seems amazing to me that a 767 can fly a full pax load from a short runway and make it all the way to LAX, but I guess it can.
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RE: B757-200 And A320 Short Runway Performance

Thu Jun 05, 2014 1:00 am

Quoting B-HOP (Thread starter):
Also are there any runway that use one way system where landings comes in from the sea but take off to the different direction? (Due to terrain in front, for example).

It doesn't involve the sea, but runway 18 at FRA is only used for takeoffs for noise abatement reasons. The other end which would normally be runway 36 doesn't even have numbers painted on it.
 
vikkyvik
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RE: B757-200 And A320 Short Runway Performance

Thu Jun 05, 2014 7:02 pm

Quoting daviation (Reply 20):
Obviously the plane is capable of operating the leg if HA is scheduling it. But what are the actual techniques? Increased flap at takeoff? Full-throttle takeoff? Less cargo? It seems amazing to me that a 767 can fly a full pax load from a short runway and make it all the way to LAX, but I guess it can.

Well, keep in mind that the 763ER's max range is something like 5500-6000 nm. LIH-LAX, at ~2600 nm, is nowhere near that.

That said, you likely wouldn't be able to load the airplane to MTOW anyway, due to the runway length. But given the relatively short flight, I'd think fuel weight would be quite a bit less than max, so you'd might into MZFW or runway-length weight limits.

Someone more knowledgeable can feel free to correct me.  
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RE: B757-200 And A320 Short Runway Performance

Wed Jun 01, 2016 3:36 am

Quoting B-HOP (Reply 12):
The reason I interested in all this is as Hong Kong are discussing a third runway

They are reclaiming land and making another man made island runway. There should not be an obstacle to overcome.
 
DualQual
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RE: B757-200 And A320 Short Runway Performance

Wed Jun 01, 2016 7:28 pm

Quoting daviation (Reply 20):

Flaps 20 takeoff in all likelihood. Fuel won't be anywhere near close to full and likely neither will cargo (not that there won't be any just that it won't be near the capacity). You could still do a reduced thrust takeoff in all likelihood as well. LIH is a runway limit issue but to the west coast even on a 763 you aren't really pushing performance since you're not even approaching quite half the range of the airplane.
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Flighty
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RE: B757-200 And A320 Short Runway Performance

Wed Jun 01, 2016 9:47 pm

Quoting SwedeBAW (Reply 18):
By the way the runway at Skiathos is 5,341ft long and the elevation is around 50ft and the B752 was easily able to take off in the heat of the day.

How about Mykonos? Thomas is listed as LGW to there; nonstop?
 
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Acey559
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RE: B757-200 And A320 Short Runway Performance

Mon Jun 06, 2016 11:13 pm

Looking at my performance manual for the 757 (I can check 767 numbers as well if you'd like), I picked a random airport with a short runway to see what the numbers look like. I chose ABQ because at 5355 feet, it's a fairly high elevation airport and runway 12 is 6000 feet long. For our planes with PW3037 engines we can launch off of 12 at 32*C with PACKs off at 184,600 lbs. That's certainly a hit from the 250,000 MTOW for our 757 Combi aircraft, but still respectable.

For an airport that's basically at sea level with no obstacle departure for the given runway, I chose PDX runway 3, which is also 6000 feet. PACKs off takeoff at 32*C gives us a MTOW of 205,500 lbs. Going the other way on runway 21 where there is an obstacle departure procedure, we can go at 206,200 lbs.

I hope this helps your understanding and if you want numbers for the 767-200F/-300F, I'll be happy to look those up as well.
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flipdewaf
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RE: B757-200 And A320 Short Runway Performance

Tue Jun 07, 2016 9:30 am

Quoting Acey559 (Reply 26):
PACKs off takeoff at 32*C gives us a MTOW of 205,500 lbs. Going the other way on runway 21 where there is an obstacle departure procedure, we can go at 206,200 lbs.

How come its higher when there is obstacle departure? Couldn't you "assume" obstacle departure going the other way? or is there in incline on the runway?

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longhauler
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RE: B757-200 And A320 Short Runway Performance

Tue Jun 07, 2016 4:21 pm

Quoting Acey559 (Reply 26):
Looking at my performance manual for the 757

I ran the same conditions at the same airports for the A320-214 for comparison, this is what I got ...

For ABQ runway 12, 70,400 Kgs out of a MTOW of 77,000 Kgs.
For PDX runway 3, 71,200 Kgs.

Both of those take off weights would be enough to carry 146 passengers (full) on a 4 hour flight with a reasonable alternate.
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Acey559
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RE: B757-200 And A320 Short Runway Performance

Tue Jun 07, 2016 7:01 pm

Quoting flipdewaf (Reply 27):

The performance data we get from Aerodata has the special engine out procedures already determined. I've flown to airports that appear to be straightforward and they have special procedures, and some that I would think should have them don't have a procedure. Someone much more intelligent than I would have to explain it further, I just read the data and fly it.  
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TWA772LR
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RE: B757-200 And A320 Short Runway Performance

Mon Jun 13, 2016 7:32 am

Happens all the time in SNA. Granted they don't have a physical barrier near the airfueld, but they do have some of the strictest noise abatement procedures in the USA. A319s, 73Gs, and 757s routinely perform transcontinental everyday from SNA, and the A320s and 738s easily push 3.5 hrs on their sectors. UA on SNA-IAH is mostly 738 and A320 and it's flight time is usually around 3 hrs and 15 mins.
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Viper911
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RE: B757-200 And A320 Short Runway Performance

Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:32 am

Not sure about the 757-200

But Arkia operates on a daily basis a pair of 757-300 with 265 pax out of ETH with 6,234 ft. runway.

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Channex757
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Re: RE: B757-200 And A320 Short Runway Performance

Sat Jun 18, 2016 3:17 pm

gkirk wrote:
Take Skiathos for example. A 752 can make it back to the UK nonstop. A32S/B737s require a stop


Recently TCX have been flying their A321 with sharklets direct back to the UK out of Skiathos.
 
gkirk
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Re: B757-200 And A320 Short Runway Performance

Sat Jun 18, 2016 6:33 pm

The TCX JSI-NCL has a stop scheduled for Kavala but I suppose if conditions are right then it can make it back.
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