lexkid12300
Topic Author
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AirTran 717 Conversation With Pilots

Tue Jul 22, 2014 6:23 pm

Hi all:

Last week i got to fly on one of AirTran's remaining 717s. Before the flight, i got to chat with the captain and F/O and wanted to share bits of our conversation.

The first thing i shared with them was my love for the DC9. The captain told me that he's been with the company for 15 years, and used to fly the DC9-30 (via ValuJet) before the 717. I asked him how he liked flying the 717 vs the DC9-30, and got a surprising answer. He said he liked the DC-9 better! His main reason was because of the power plants, stating something along the lines of, "With the DC9, if you wanted power you'd advance the throttles, count to 4, and you'd have power. But on the 717, when you want power, you advance the throttles and have to count to 8 before you get it." He said that in his 15 years of flying derivatives of the DC9, he's never lost an engine or a major system failure. I thought that was impressive.

I advised the crew that i'd be filming the takeoff from my seat in row 27, and asked if they'd perform a high power static takeoff (holding the brakes, advancing the throttles, then quickly releasing the brakes) to which the captain responded, "Hell yeah!" He did say, however, that he couldn't to a "full power" takeoff as that would require him to have a different flap setting... He said we were heavy at 115,000lbs and that the max is 120,000lb.

Here's the video of the takeoff that i recorded. This is the first takeoff video i've done with this new camera, which i bought especially for this purpose. It has surround sound capabilities, so it picks up the engine sounds better than anything i've ever heard!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WcJxm5ABP-s

I really enjoyed talking to the crew and appreciate them taking the time to let me pick their brains and for performing that awesome takeoff. Are pilots allowed to do this for their passengers? When i got to my seat, i couldn't help but wonder if i could get in trouble for requesting a static takeoff (if something happened i mean)... And what do you think about the DC9 vs 717 argument about engines?

Thanks for your input!
 
737tdi
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RE: AirTran 717 Conversation With Pilots

Tue Jul 22, 2014 7:02 pm

Just want to comment, turbojets have always accelerated quicker then turbofans. The CFM56 powered 737 is a good example. I have taxied 737's equipped with the JT8, CFM56-3, and the CFM56-7 and can tell you that you can even tell it on the ground. Sometimes we are asked to expedite a runway crossing and the JT8 would get you across much quicker due to it's quicker acceleration. Also during normal taxi you would never have to advance the throttles, mostly you would have to apply the brakes to slow down.
 
Accidentally
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RE: AirTran 717 Conversation With Pilots

Tue Jul 22, 2014 7:27 pm

I don't know their rules and/or laws as far as the request is concerned, but since you asked and seem to have concern, I'd just recommend - and I'm sure the pilots would appreciate if the flight's tail number, date and route not be posted along with the fact that you requested a specific technique and they complied as far as the aircraft operation is concerned...if AirTran objects for some reason, all information necessary to ID the crew is right there. Maybe you told the crew you'd do that, I don't know - but that's how I'd feel. I looove cameras and the great things they have the power to do, and I also loathe what they can do to people and their careers over really silly things.

Nice video BTW  
Indianapolis, IN
 
ROSWELL41
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RE: AirTran 717 Conversation With Pilots

Wed Jul 23, 2014 5:52 pm

As far as the takeoff, I wouldn't worry about it. The crew isn't going to do anything that's unsafe no matter what you ask them. If anything, given a choice of a rolling or static takeoff, the static takeoff is more 'conservative' performance wise. Safety first!
 
Flighty
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RE: AirTran 717 Conversation With Pilots

Wed Jul 23, 2014 6:43 pm

Yeah just dont ask for a gear-up flyby at 30 feet.
 
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MD80
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RE: AirTran 717 Conversation With Pilots

Fri Jul 25, 2014 10:54 am

Nice video!   
Dedicated to the MD-80, MD-90, MD-95, and DC-9: www.MD-80.com
 
daviation
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RE: AirTran 717 Conversation With Pilots

Fri Jul 25, 2014 6:28 pm

Very cool video!

I've been on quite a few 717s (Air Tran and Hawaiian), and I always thought it climbed very fast. Maybe it's just my own perception.

In the spirit of rockin' takeoffs, here's one I took on a DH-8 flight from West Maui to HNL. The runway is only 3000 feet, so the pilot stood on the brakes until the props were spooled up. Better than Six Flags!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R2EJfvyVpl0
PlaneFlown:717,727,737,747,757,767,777,DC8,DC9,DC10,L1011,F100,A300,319,320,321,330,340,CRJ,ERJ,E190,Av85,DH8,Beaver,ATR
 
AA737-823
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RE: AirTran 717 Conversation With Pilots

Tue Jul 29, 2014 9:34 pm

Quoting 737tdi (Reply 1):
Just want to comment, turbojets have always accelerated quicker then turbofans. The CFM56 powered 737 is a good example. I have taxied 737's equipped with the JT8, CFM56-3, and the CFM56-7

Just want to comment... a JT8 IS a turbofan. Because it has a fan on the front. And a bypass ratio.
And, true turbojets were actually slow accelerators. The single-spool isn't optimized for ANYTHING a jet engine does; that's why the dual-spool was invented, and even the 707 had turbofans by the 1960's.
But being a small diameter fan, the JT8 is VERY much more responsive than a CFM or BR715. I loved taxying the 737-200s, though the brakes are better on a New Gen.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 4):
Yeah just dont ask for a gear-up flyby at 30 feet.

Well, there's no harm in asking!

Quoting lexkid12300 (Thread starter):
he's never lost an engine or a major system failure. I thought that was impressive.

It is impressive, until you remember that it's the DC-9 we're talking about here. Nothing ever goes wrong with a Diesel Niner!
 
737tdi
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RE: AirTran 717 Conversation With Pilots

Wed Jul 30, 2014 1:10 am

Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 7):
Just want to comment... a JT8 IS a turbofan

I realize that, I just didn't want to differentiate the modern high bypass to the older technology without having to type a monologue. The JT3 was a so called turbofan but the amount of thrust bypassed was very small. I worked on these engines for years and never really thought of them as turbo fans.
 
N243NW
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RE: AirTran 717 Conversation With Pilots

Wed Jul 30, 2014 4:40 am

Quoting 737tdi (Reply 8):
The JT3 was a so called turbofan but the amount of thrust bypassed was very small. I worked on these engines for years and never really thought of them as turbo fans.

I've heard of that type of engine being referred to as a "leaky turbojet." Always got a kick out of that terminology...
B-52s don't take off. They scare the ground away.
 
Max Q
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RE: AirTran 717 Conversation With Pilots

Wed Jul 30, 2014 8:06 am

Quoting lexkid12300 (Thread starter):
I advised the crew that i'd be filming the takeoff from my seat in row 27, and asked if they'd perform a high power static takeoff (holding the brakes, advancing the throttles, then quickly releasing the brakes) to which the captain responded, "Hell yeah!"

Deciding to alter your power setting and holding power against brakes just to impress a passenger
is not clever, it is very unprofessional, reckless and childish.



It is not the kind of behaviour or judgement you expect or what is required from an Airline captain, most passengers do not want an 'air show' They won't get one from me, careful planning, conservative decisions and caution is what is expected, any other attitude is indefensible.



I hope he was disciplined for this.

[Edited 2014-07-30 01:15:02]
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.


GGg
 
barney captain
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RE: AirTran 717 Conversation With Pilots

Thu Jul 31, 2014 8:28 am

Quoting Max Q (Reply 10):
Deciding to alter your power setting and holding power against brakes just to impress a passenger
is not clever, it is very unprofessional, reckless and childish.

You've apparently never departed from SNA - that procedure is actually mandated for us.
Southeast Of Disorder
 
Max Q
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RE: AirTran 717 Conversation With Pilots

Thu Jul 31, 2014 8:34 am

Quoting barney captain (Reply 11):
You've apparently never departed from SNA - that procedure is actually mandated for us

I doubt it is mandated by a passenger Barney !



When you are following required procedure it is an entirely different matter as I'm sure you know.
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.


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barney captain
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RE: AirTran 717 Conversation With Pilots

Thu Jul 31, 2014 8:36 pm

Quoting Max Q (Reply 12):
When you are following required procedure it is an entirely different matter as I'm sure you know.

Clearly.

My point is what the pilots did was hardly reckless. If it were, it wouldn't be a mandated procedure elsewhere. I watched the video, they didn't do a full power runup before releasing the brakes - it was hardly more than allowing the engines to spool.

Everything I saw only increased their performance and stopping margins. Never a bad thing.

Also, the Captain made it clear -

Quoting lexkid12300 (Thread starter):
He did say, however, that he couldn't to a "full power" takeoff as that would require him to have a different flap setting.


Had he asked for and performed a low-level acceleration or anything else outside the realm of normal ops, I would agree with you, I just didn't see it.
Southeast Of Disorder
 
BoeingGuy
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RE: AirTran 717 Conversation With Pilots

Fri Aug 01, 2014 12:18 am

Quoting barney captain (Reply 11):
You've apparently never departed from SNA - that procedure is actually mandated for us.

I thought most of the airlines stopped doing the static run-up at SNA. I never see AS do it anymore on the 73Gs. I was told that AA long ago stopped it on the 757 and 738.

My last static run-up was on an MD80 at AEP several years ago.
 
barney captain
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RE: AirTran 717 Conversation With Pilots

Fri Aug 01, 2014 12:50 am

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 14):
I thought most of the airlines stopped doing the static run-up at SNA. I never see AS do it anymore on the 73Gs. I was told that AA long ago stopped it on the 757 and 738.

I think most have, but we still do it - up to a minimum of 40% N1 before we release the brakes. The procedure has been continually modified for us as we used to do it bleeds off as well. Now it's Flaps 10, bleeds on, spool to @ 40% min, release brakes, set max N1, cutback at 800 AGL, maintain V2+20, resume normal climb power and flap retraction starting at 3000 AGL.

[Edited 2014-07-31 18:04:16]

[Edited 2014-07-31 18:05:12]
Southeast Of Disorder
 
Max Q
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RE: AirTran 717 Conversation With Pilots

Fri Aug 01, 2014 8:08 am

Quoting barney captain (Reply 13):
My point is what the pilots did was hardly reckless. If it were, it wouldn't be a mandated procedure elsewhere. I watched the video, they didn't do a full power runup before releasing the brakes - it was hardly more than allowing the engines to spool.

Everything I saw only increased their performance and stopping margins. Never a bad thing.

Not my point Barney, what i'm saying is you shouldn't be accepting and following operational 'advice'
from a passenger just to impress them.


That is reckless.
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.


GGg
 
goboeing
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RE: AirTran 717 Conversation With Pilots

Fri Aug 01, 2014 5:14 pm

Quoting Max Q (Reply 10):
Deciding to alter your power setting and holding power against brakes just to impress a passenger
is not clever, it is very unprofessional, reckless and childish.



It is not the kind of behaviour or judgement you expect or what is required from an Airline captain, most passengers do not want an 'air show' They won't get one from me, careful planning, conservative decisions and caution is what is expected, any other attitude is indefensible.



I hope he was disciplined for this.

Can I use the phrase, settle down Captain Happy?

Disciplined???

For taking off?

From what I read in the post, they didn't take out the takeoff derated thrust or anything of the sort, they just waited a few extra seconds after advancing the thrust. I can do that where I work, whenever I please -- as long as the crosswind limitation for a static takeoff is not exceeded.

A friend of mine was coming back from South America on your company and in order to get everyone on, they had to burn quite a bit of taxi fuel and then some. They went onto the runway at GRU and sat there at takeoff power for two minutes as the plane bounced around with the brakes set.

Should they also be disciplined? Is this prohibited on your airplane but perhaps not many others?
 
BoeingGuy
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RE: AirTran 717 Conversation With Pilots

Fri Aug 01, 2014 7:51 pm

Quoting barney captain (Reply 15):
I think most have, but we still do it - up to a minimum of 40% N1 before we release the brakes.

I thought the real run-ups at SNA were more like up to 80-90 N1 before brake release. For the 777, you actually manually stabilize about 55 N1 before pushing TO/GA.

There's one subtle thing you said that makes me pretty sure you fly the 737. They call it "bleeds off" on the 737. On other Boeing models it's called "packs off". 737 doesn't have the Air Driven Hydraulic Demand pumps like other non-787 modes. You definitely wouldn't turn off bleeds on other models, just the Packs.
 
strfyr51
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RE: AirTran 717 Conversation With Pilots

Fri Aug 01, 2014 9:48 pm

Quoting 737tdi (Reply 1):
Just want to comment, turbojets have always accelerated quicker then turbofans. The CFM56 powered 737 is a good example. I have taxied 737's equipped with the JT8, CFM56-3, and the CFM56-7 and can tell you that you can even tell it on the ground. Sometimes we are asked to expedite a runway crossing and the JT8 would get you across much quicker due to it's quicker acceleration. Also during normal taxi you would never have to advance the throttles, mostly you would have to apply the brakes to slow down.

The JT8 performance Ithink is because the engine was a re-fanned version of the J52 engine that powered the A4 skyhawk
and the core was timed for Jam Acceleration. The CFM engines were always of civilian lineage and not set up for that type of operation. With a civil bred model overteming is what they fear most and the engine electronic control will limit acceleration tine
so as to NOT stress the engine. the JT8 HAD no EEC . Add Mo' fuel? Get Mo Power! (until you overtemp the engine)
 
KELPkid
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RE: AirTran 717 Conversation With Pilots

Sat Aug 02, 2014 1:08 am

Quoting strfyr51 (Reply 19):
The CFM engines were always of civilian lineage and not set up for that type of operation. With a civil bred model overteming is what they fear most and the engine electronic control will limit acceleration tine

I thought the core of the CFM was taken from the F110 (military engine used in the F-15 and F-16), and was actually still considered classified when the CFM project began...it used to be that only GE techs were allowed to join core to the fan section at the SNECMA factory  
Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
 
Max Q
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RE: AirTran 717 Conversation With Pilots

Sat Aug 02, 2014 9:19 am

Point is, a standing start is not necessary unless explicitly recommended in the performance planning for that runway, it is very rare.



And if you're taking advice from a passenger as to how to operate your aircraft you should follow another profession.
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.


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jetmatt777
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RE: AirTran 717 Conversation With Pilots

Sat Aug 02, 2014 7:41 pm

Quoting Max Q (Reply 21):
And if you're taking advice from a passenger as to how to operate your aircraft you should follow another profession.

It's not taking advice on how to operate the aircraft, it's following a request to perform a procedure for which you are trained and qualified to perform.

What if an ATC, who is untrained and unqualified on the type, requested the pilot to hold position and to throttle up and await takeoff clearance? I hear that request used to be quite common in SFO when engines had much more lag in spooling up, so intersecting runway operation could occur without compromising safety.

The pilot still has final say, and can deny the request if it is unsafe.
Lighten up while you still can, don't even try to understand, just find a place to make your stand and take it easy
 
barney captain
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RE: AirTran 717 Conversation With Pilots

Sun Aug 03, 2014 2:12 am

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 18):
I thought the real run-ups at SNA were more like up to 80-90 N1 before brake release. For the 777, you actually manually stabilize about 55 N1 before pushing TO/GA.

The procedure we have states "a minimum of 40%". It used to be up to cutback N1, which was usually @ 75%. On normal take-off's, we stabilize to a min of 40% N1 before hitting TOGA, the difference in SNA is that it's done while holding the brakes - as opposed to allowing a rolling take-off.
Southeast Of Disorder
 
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TheRedBaron
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RE: AirTran 717 Conversation With Pilots

Sun Aug 03, 2014 3:19 am

At MEX we still get a lot of high power, static take offs since its a hot and high airport.... when Mexicana an Aeromexico had 757's it was a blast...

TRB
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Max Q
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RE: AirTran 717 Conversation With Pilots

Sun Aug 03, 2014 10:38 am

Quoting jetmatt777 (Reply 22):
It's not taking advice on how to operate the aircraft,

Nonsense, of course it is and no self respecting, professional Captain takes 'advice' from a passenger on how to operate his Aircraft, that is ridiculous.

Quoting jetmatt777 (Reply 22):
What if an ATC, who is untrained and unqualified on the type, requested the pilot to hold position and to throttle up and await takeoff clearance?

That is a totally different situation and a legitimate scenario with a request from a qualified controller, not just someone looking for a 'fun ride'



Quoting jetmatt777 (Reply 22):
he pilot still has final say, and can deny the request if it is unsafe.

We are all (well most of us) quite aware of this without your 'expert' input..

[Edited 2014-08-03 04:08:33]
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.


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jetmatt777
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RE: AirTran 717 Conversation With Pilots

Sun Aug 03, 2014 6:02 pm

Quoting Max Q (Reply 25):
We are all (well most of us) quite aware of this without your 'expert' input..

I have never claimed to be an expert. Drop the attitude, Captain Happy.

The captain would never have done that procedure if he felt it was outside of his ability, would create an unsafe condition for the aircraft around him, or would have created an unsafe condition for his airplane.

For all we know, the pilots decided to do it, and the OP is lying by saying he asked the crew to do it. Who knows.
Lighten up while you still can, don't even try to understand, just find a place to make your stand and take it easy
 
737tdi
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RE: AirTran 717 Conversation With Pilots

Mon Aug 04, 2014 5:55 am

Quoting strfyr51 (Reply 19):
the JT8 HAD no EEC

The CFM 56-2 and -3 do not have EECs either. Almost all of the control is done via the MEC by adjusting itself and the VSVs/VBVs via fuel pressure. There is a PMC but it does not have near the control as the EEC/FADEC on the -7.
 
Max Q
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RE: AirTran 717 Conversation With Pilots

Mon Aug 04, 2014 9:20 am

Quoting jetmatt777 (Reply 26):
The captain would never have done that procedure if he felt it was outside of his ability, would create an unsafe condition for the aircraft around him, or would have created an unsafe condition for his airplane.

Since your training and expertise has been confined to working behind a podium, dealing with boarding passes and other such stressful events you don't really know what you are talking about do you ?   
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.


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seven3seven
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RE: AirTran 717 Conversation With Pilots

Tue Aug 05, 2014 6:08 pm

Quoting Max Q (Reply 28):
Since your training and expertise has been confined to working behind a podium, dealing with boarding passes and other such stressful events you don't really know what you are talking about do you ?

Funny coming from someone who clearly doesnt know what he's talking about. Jettmatt knows a lot about aviation and is correct. You sir are wrong, paranoid, and think you've got it all figured out.

I can do whatever kind of takeoff my manual allows. Rolling, stopped, brakes on, brakes off, full power, reduced thrust, flaps 1, 5, 10, etc.

And that's all that happened here. The captain did nothing wrong and you are out of line.
My views are mine alone and are not that of any of my fellow employees, officers, or directors at my company
 
BoeingGuy
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RE: AirTran 717 Conversation With Pilots

Tue Aug 05, 2014 8:25 pm

Quoting jetmatt777 (Reply 22):
What if an ATC, who is untrained and unqualified on the type, requested the pilot to hold position and to throttle up and await takeoff clearance? I hear that request used to be quite common in SFO when engines had much more lag in spooling up, so intersecting runway operation could occur without compromising safety.

I assume this is on the 1s. What do they do, run the engines up first so when the landing traffic on 28s clears they can expedite their takeoff roll?

When I was a kid there was a sign on IR that you can't use full power until a certain point due to 101 being right behind you. Is this still a restriction?
 
goboeing
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RE: AirTran 717 Conversation With Pilots

Wed Aug 06, 2014 5:49 am

Next kid that comes in and sounds like they are into flying and genuinely know some things about planes already, I'm going to ask them what kind of takeoff they want.
 
BoeingGuy
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RE: AirTran 717 Conversation With Pilots

Wed Aug 06, 2014 5:34 pm

Quoting goboeing (Reply 31):
Next kid that comes in and sounds like they are into flying and genuinely know some things about planes already, I'm going to ask them what kind of takeoff they want.

How about doing a Powerback for them. That's really cool.
 
lexkid12300
Topic Author
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RE: AirTran 717 Conversation With Pilots

Thu Aug 07, 2014 12:12 am

Hi all...

I didn't realize how heated this thread would get! And i'm not a "kid"... i'm 25 with a degree in engineering mathematics. I do have "some" understanding of mechanics.

But anyway!

I flew AirTran again this weekend, and you betcha i asked this crew if they'd do a static, again. And they did, very willingly. Here is the video of it! Jump to about 6:40 to see it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xwYRtGgOzzs&feature=youtu.be

Evidently they don't have a problem with it, because both crews seemed more than willing to do it.

Something i noticed the second time, though... the flap setting seemed to be smaller. Is it just my eyes?

[Edited 2014-08-06 17:31:57]
 
BoeingGuy
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RE: AirTran 717 Conversation With Pilots

Thu Aug 07, 2014 10:43 pm

Quoting lexkid12300 (Reply 33):
I didn't realize how heated this thread would get! And i'm not a "kid"... i'm 25 with a degree in engineering mathematics. I do have "some" understanding of mechanics.

I'm going to say something blunt and harsh, so forgive me. You clearly are an intelligent young man. However, the fact that you would even ask the crew of a commercial flight to do some special procedure that you think would be cool, shows that you are still a kid in someways, such as your judgement.

I understand and appreciate your enthusiasm and passion. That's why many of us work in the industry. You probably will be an asset to the industry some day.

My personal opinion is that even asking the crew to do something you think would be cool, is very uncool.

[Edited 2014-08-07 15:47:13]

[Edited 2014-08-07 15:47:40]
 
jetmatt777
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RE: AirTran 717 Conversation With Pilots

Thu Aug 07, 2014 11:45 pm

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 30):
I assume this is on the 1s. What do they do, run the engines up first so when the landing traffic on 28s clears they can expedite their takeoff roll?

Here's a great video (just audio) of some vintage ATC at SFO. At about 3 and a half minutes he starts asking for pilots to spool up while holding, then as the traffic crossing downfield is clear he launches them.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=bQDmwAbWv_4


Max Q, as this air traffic controller is unqualified on the operation of these aircraft, do you have a problem with him requesting procedures of which he neither has direct training in, nor the qualifications to instruct a pilot on how to operate his plane? The only difference between the guy asking for a procedure and the ATC, is one is qualified to issue navigation instructions and the other isn't. They are both unqualified to give operational instructions. So, again the pilot has full responsibility in all of these instances. The guy asked for something which was a procedure for which the pilot was qualified to do, and the pilot ultimately decided he would do it, in accordance with his procedures.

I would agree with the above poster that it probably wasn't the "coolest" thing to do. But, the pilot still had judgment. He could have laughed it off and just rolled on to the runway like he does 4 or 5 times a day. He probably noticed traffic was light, ATC wasn't in a hurry to get him out, and ultimately that it would not be unsafe to perform a standard procedure for which he is trained and permitted to perform in accordance with his flight manuals and training..

Maybe ATC had him hold position anyway, and he decided to spool up? Who knows, no one was in the wrong here and you are making a giant issue out of nothing.
Lighten up while you still can, don't even try to understand, just find a place to make your stand and take it easy
 
BoeingGuy
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RE: AirTran 717 Conversation With Pilots

Fri Aug 08, 2014 12:22 am

Quoting jetmatt777 (Reply 35):
Maybe ATC had him hold position anyway, and he decided to spool up? Who knows, no one was in the wrong here and you are making a giant issue out of nothing.

No I'm not. I'm pointing out the young man that approaching a pilot and asking him to do something special on takeoff is not an appropriate thing to do, especially in today's sensitive world.

I stand behind my post.
 
jetmatt777
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RE: AirTran 717 Conversation With Pilots

Fri Aug 08, 2014 5:18 am

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 36):
No I'm not. I'm pointing out the young man that approaching a pilot and asking him to do something special on takeoff is not an appropriate thing to do, especially in today's sensitive world.

I apologize for the confusion, I was addressing Max Q.

I also stand behind my statement that no one did anything wrong, legally. As long as the procedure is done in accordance with standard procedures, does it matter who requested it? The person performing the procedure still has the final say, and is the one responsible with following the standard procedures.
Lighten up while you still can, don't even try to understand, just find a place to make your stand and take it easy

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Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos