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tinpusher007
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77W NEO?

Wed Jul 30, 2014 1:24 am

Apologies if this has been brought up already. I was curious if it would make sense for Boeing to consider a 77W NEO, a la the A330NEO? It could use the new GENx engine being developed for the 7778/9Xs and perhaps some other aerodynamic improvements to reduce fuel burn. This aircraft could be targeted at airlines that want something with 300+ seats but don't require the performance of the 777-8. Thoughts???
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FriscoHeavy
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RE: 77W NEO?

Wed Jul 30, 2014 2:20 am

Simple answer - NO.

Wouldnt make sense
Whatever
 
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Stitch
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RE: 77W NEO?

Wed Jul 30, 2014 3:03 am

Quoting Tinpusher007 (Thread starter):
I was curious if it would make sense for Boeing to consider a 77W NEO, a la the A330NEO?

At the 2011 Paris Air Show, Boeing began talking about the "777+", which would incorporate GEnx technology into the GE90 engine, the 787 avionics displays and a possible wingspan increase.

Over the next 24 months the "777+" developed into the "777X", which was launched at the 2013 Dubai Air Show.
 
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817Dreamliiner
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RE: 77W NEO?

Wed Jul 30, 2014 11:01 am

I really don't get why some people think that every aircraft needs NEOing....

Quoting Tinpusher007 (Thread starter):
This aircraft could be targeted at airlines that want something with 300+ seats but don't require the performance of the 777-8. Thoughts???

Well, they can always derate it to the required specification of the customer. Thins like MTOW and engine thrust are not actually set in stone. The airline can specify what it wants as long as its within the limits.
Life is encrypted, you are modified, Like a virus in a lullaby, Artificial till the day you die, silly programme, You're corrupted
 
kurtverbose
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RE: 77W NEO?

Wed Jul 30, 2014 12:41 pm

What would a plane be called if it was re-engined twice in it's life?

-CEO
-NEO
-LEO - Latest Engine Option?  
 
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seabosdca
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RE: 77W NEO?

Wed Jul 30, 2014 3:18 pm

It wouldn't sell because, like the existing 777-300ER, it couldn't compete with the A350-1000. The whole reason for creating the 777-9X is that, because the 777 is heavier than the A350 and will remain so, it has to have higher capacity to offset the extra weight and compete.
 
strfyr51
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RE: 77W NEO?

Wed Jul 30, 2014 8:20 pm

Quoting Tinpusher007 (Thread starter):
Apologies if this has been brought up already. I was curious if it would make sense for Boeing to consider a 77W NEO, a la the A330NEO? It could use the new GENx engine being developed for the 7778/9Xs and perhaps some other aerodynamic improvements to reduce fuel burn. This aircraft could be targeted at airlines that want something with 300+ seats but don't require the performance of the 777-8. Thoughts???

The 777W Neo is the 777-8 or-9 the engines will be @ 90K thrust with a new wing contour.
Boeing is going nore efficient rather than more powerful, Because at 115K Thrust? there's not much further to GO !!..
 
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hufftheweevil
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RE: 77W NEO?

Thu Jul 31, 2014 12:13 am

Quoting kurtverbose (Reply 4):
What would a plane be called if it was re-engined twice in it's life?

-CEO
-NEO
-LEO - Latest Engine Option?  

Not to get off topic, but what would a future 737 family be called? We've already got Original, Classic, Next Generation, and MAX. What says "this is the latest and greatest" more than MAX?
Huff
 
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Stitch
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RE: 77W NEO?

Thu Jul 31, 2014 1:37 am

Quoting hufftheweevil (Reply 7):
Not to get off topic, but what would a future 737 family be called?

It is very unlikely that there will be another 737 family after the MAX.

Boeing will instead launch a new narrowbody family - NSA (New Small Airplane).
 
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hufftheweevil
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RE: 77W NEO?

Thu Jul 31, 2014 6:54 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 8):
It is very unlikely that there will be another 737 family after the MAX.

Boeing will instead launch a new narrowbody family - NSA (New Small Airplane).

True. I was proposing more of a hypothetical.
Huff
 
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DocLightning
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RE: 77W NEO?

Thu Jul 31, 2014 6:00 pm

Quoting Tinpusher007 (Thread starter):
Apologies if this has been brought up already. I was curious if it would make sense for Boeing to consider a 77W NEO,

It's called the 777-8 and 777-9. Take your pick.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 8):

It is very unlikely that there will be another 737 family after the MAX.

Boeing will instead launch a new narrowbody family - NSA (New Small Airplane).

I agree. But then again I predicted that they would not do the -MAX.

For all I know, we're all destined to be flying on 737s for the rest of our lives.
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vzlet
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RE: 77W NEO?

Thu Jul 31, 2014 8:18 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 10):
I predicted that they would not do the -MAX.

You can request Google to erase that, you know!
"That's so stupid! If they're so secret, why are they out where everyone can see them?" - my kid
 
kurtverbose
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RE: 77W NEO?

Thu Jul 31, 2014 9:24 pm

Quoting hufftheweevil (Reply 7):
What says "this is the latest and greatest" more than MAX?

They should just adopt the European Royalty / Star Wars naming convention. E.g.

737 I, 737 II, 737 III, 737 IV etc
 
rwessel
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RE: 77W NEO?

Fri Aug 01, 2014 3:39 am

Quoting hufftheweevil (Reply 7):
Not to get off topic, but what would a future 737 family be called? We've already got Original, Classic, Next Generation, and MAX. What says "this is the latest and greatest" more than MAX?

They'll probably figure out how to go 8 abreast in the same fuselage, and call it the Supermax.   
 
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DocLightning
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RE: 77W NEO?

Tue Aug 12, 2014 4:43 pm

Quoting vzlet (Reply 11):
You can request Google to erase that, you know!

I'm not afraid of being wrong. Being wrong is how you learn stuff.

Quoting hufftheweevil (Reply 7):
Not to get off topic, but what would a future 737 family be called? We've already got Original, Classic, Next Generation, and MAX. What says "this is the latest and greatest" more than MAX?

"737-The Next Generation After This One."
"737-Return of the Jellybean."
"737-Remixed."
"737-It's Baaaaaaack!"
"737-Timeless"
"737-Can't Beat The Real Thing."
"737-We're Lovin' It."
"737-CGE (Can't Get Enough)"

OK, I'll stop now.  
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WesternDC6B
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RE: 77W NEO?

Tue Aug 12, 2014 11:16 pm

Quoting hufftheweevil (Reply 7):
What says "this is the latest and greatest" more than MAX?

WO: Warmed-over.

I am far from an engineer, but, I really think Boeing has wrung the last bit of juice they can get from the 737. (I know... famous last words.)
Never employ grandios verbiage when the utilisation of diminutive phraseology will suffice.
 
tortugamon
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RE: 77W NEO?

Mon Aug 18, 2014 4:20 am

While I don't see a 777x with GEnx engines I have an easier time seeing a 77W with GE9x engines. The dimensions are not that different and if it the 77X engines take a while to ramp up and the engines don't then I can see how this model could have a very limited future if Boeing wanted to certify it (very unlikely). Essentially it would be a 77W for regional missions and a much lower price than an A351. At least until 77X production caught up.


tortugamon
 
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Stitch
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RE: 77W NEO?

Mon Aug 18, 2014 4:39 am

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 16):
While I don't see a 777x with GEnx engines I have an easier time seeing a 77W with GE9x engines.

That was the "777+" of 2011.

I assume discussions with customers did not generate sufficient interest, so Boeing went with the more extensive changes of the 777X.
 
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DocLightning
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RE: 77W NEO?

Tue Aug 19, 2014 3:51 am

Quoting WesternDC6B (Reply 15):
I am far from an engineer, but, I really think Boeing has wrung the last bit of juice they can get from the 737. (I know... famous last words.)

As I said, that was my prediction for the 737-NG. "Can't improve on it."

It seems as if Boeing is doing a lot of work into laminar flow to optimize their airframes. First the 787 nacelles and now the 737 tail. Once they can figure out how to get manufacturing costs down, I wonder if they won't figure out a way to get active laminar flow applied to the tailplane, wings, and engine nacelles. I wonder how much more efficient they could make the 737 then.

Of course, Airbus will never be far behind.
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deltal1011man
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RE: 77W NEO?

Thu Aug 21, 2014 11:07 am

Quoting strfyr51 (Reply 6):
The 777W Neo is the 777-8 or-9 the engines will be @ 90K thrust with a new wing contour.

isn't the GE9X back over 100K now? (105K is sticking out in my head)
 
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Stitch
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RE: 77W NEO?

Thu Aug 21, 2014 2:12 pm

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 19):
isn't the GE9X back over 100K now? (105K is sticking out in my head)

Yes, the engine is now at 105,000 pounds of thrust to address EK's performance concerns out of DXB during the hottest days. This was announced by GE President/CEO David Joyce at the 2013 Dubai Air Show.
 
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KarelXWB
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RE: 77W NEO?

Thu Aug 21, 2014 2:18 pm

AFAIK Clark is still pushing for 108,000 pounds.
What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
tortugamon
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RE: 77W NEO?

Sat Aug 23, 2014 3:10 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 17):
That was the "777+" of 2011.
I assume discussions with customers did not generate sufficient interest, so Boeing went with the more extensive changes of the 777X.

I think the 777+ was going to have some aero fixes and an engine PIP and some other changes. My comment above was to actually hang a GE9x off of the 77W's wing. I think the + aimed for 4% improvement.

I think there was interest but the airlines were looking for a cheaper 777 not a better operating but higher priced one. Consequently Boeing is putting its efforts into keeping the line as simple as possible to drive efficiencies and drive down the price.

tortugamon
 
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Stitch
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RE: 77W NEO?

Sat Aug 23, 2014 2:06 pm

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 22):
I think the 777+ was going to have some aero fixes and an engine PIP and some other changes. My comment above was to actually hang a GE9x off of the 77W's wing. I think the + aimed for 4% improvement.

Well this is Boeing, so they throw out more concepts than modifiedairlinerphotos does.  

The 777+ and 777X seem to have been developed in parallel, with the 777+ being a mid-decade refresh incorporating incremental improvements, a wingspan increase and adapting GEnx engine technology into the GE90 (which became the GE9X), while the 777X would have CFRP wings, a longer fuselage and the GE9X.
 
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DocLightning
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RE: 77W NEO?

Sat Aug 23, 2014 9:53 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 23):
Well this is Boeing, so they throw out more concepts than modifiedairlinerphotos does.  

Which is good! It R&D at Boeing must be a fun and frustrating department to work in to keep coming up with these fantastic ideas and have one after the next after the next get shot down.  
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georgiaame
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RE: 77W NEO?

Sun Aug 24, 2014 2:30 am

Okay, I've been wondering, and before everyone gets off in a huff, I KNOW it ain't gonna happen. BUT. What would a 777Y be capable of doing? The Y version has a carbon composite skin, stringers/hangers/nuts and bolts like the 787, composite wings, and some new, appropriate neo ersion of its engines. Basically a 787 body on a 777 model. Thoughts? And I repeat, I know I am describing a clean sheet aircraft. I'm not talking clean sheet, I'm talking old sheet with a lot of erasers.
"Trust, but verify!" An old Russian proverb, quoted often by a modern American hero
 
Max Q
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RE: 77W NEO?

Sun Aug 24, 2014 7:49 am

A 77W with the 'X' engines would be severely underpowered, as I suspect the -8 and -9 will be.



However the NG version will have a much bigger wing which Boeing claim will negate the far lower installed thrust for the same weight as the -W which will have no such advantage.
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.


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Stitch
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RE: 77W NEO?

Sun Aug 24, 2014 5:24 pm

The "777Y" will be the NLA - New Large Airplane - and will replace the 777 and 747 family. It will almost certainly be a predominately CFRP airframe like the 787, just scaled for 10 (maybe even 11) abreast.
 
georgiaame
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RE: 77W NEO?

Sun Aug 24, 2014 9:02 pm

Stitch, I realize that. My question, rephrased: Suppose carbon composite technology and raked wingtips, and geared turbofan engines were off the shelf technology in 1991. Boeing designs an new wide bodied aircraft called the 777. It is about 199 feet long, and has a wingspan of about 200 feet. There isn't going to be a lot of aluminum used in the construction. What would that machine be capable of flying?
"Trust, but verify!" An old Russian proverb, quoted often by a modern American hero
 
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DocLightning
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RE: 77W NEO?

Sun Aug 24, 2014 9:16 pm

Quoting georgiaame (Reply 25):
The Y version has a carbon composite skin, stringers/hangers/nuts and bolts like the 787, composite wings, and some new, appropriate neo ersion of its engines. Basically a 787 body on a 777 model. Thoughts? And I repeat, I know I am describing a clean sheet aircraft. I'm not talking clean sheet, I'm talking old sheet with a lot of erasers.

But it is clean-sheet. The fuselage skin has to be a different thickness, for starters. And right there you just changed everything.

It would basically be an entirely new airplane with a mostly new parts list. But let's suppose that you kept the 777 exterior mold lines on this all-new aircraft (are we adding the 787's electric architecture?).

It seems as if 10-20% improvement in efficiency is necessary to justify a new model, so it would probably be able to fly at least 10% farther on the same amount of fuel. Or possibly carry more payload a given distance (or the same payload farther).

But, as I understand it, the big advantage to CFRP isn't so much weight as it is fatigue resistance. It means less checks for cracks and metal fatigue. It means a longer airframe lifespan. It means less ramp rash. The weight is a relatively minor thing. Al-Li competes in weight for strength.
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"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
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georgiaame
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RE: 77W NEO?

Mon Aug 25, 2014 5:43 pm

10-20% fuel improvement. Interesting - I have no recollection of fuel prices in the mid-90s, but now you have to ask, would a 10-15% fuel improvement been worth the the investment? Maybe it's just as well that the technological cards fell the way they did. Musing...
"Trust, but verify!" An old Russian proverb, quoted often by a modern American hero
 
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DocLightning
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RE: 77W NEO?

Mon Aug 25, 2014 6:50 pm

Quoting georgiaame (Reply 30):
10-20% fuel improvement. Interesting - I have no recollection of fuel prices in the mid-90s, but now you have to ask, would a 10-15% fuel improvement been worth the the investment? Maybe it's just as well that the technological cards fell the way they did. Musing...

Keep in mind that the fuel improvement would come from the new engines, not the CFRP. The CFRP *might* buy 1-2% over conventional aluminum and probably not much at all over Al-Li.
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"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
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