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UAEflyer
Topic Author
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Domestic Flight Crossing Other Country Airspace

Mon Aug 11, 2014 7:47 am

As the topic says
example: If you took flight from YYZ to YVR you would have 2 routes to follow, either stay inside Canada airspace or you fly over the United States airspace.
For the airline to do business (Canadian & none Canadian) if they will fly this route, which is more economical for them, flying into the US airspace where may some fees are applicable, or stay in Canada airspace and make it domestic flight.

I know that some international airline fly between YYZ & YVR due to range restriction, other airlines fly JFK to YVR for the same reason.
 
chuchoteur
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RE: Domestic Flight Crossing Other Country Airspace

Mon Aug 11, 2014 9:21 am

I would say it depends on the relevant navigation charges, as long as you have the 1st freedom of the air  
 
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speedygonzales
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RE: Domestic Flight Crossing Other Country Airspace

Mon Aug 11, 2014 10:49 am

I depends, I've seen on FR24 that Russian domestic flights to/from VVO avoid Chinese airspace, even though the distance saved can be significant in some cases like HTA-VVO.
http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=hta-vvo...hta-53.7N124E-khv-vvo&MS=wls&DU=km

On the other hand, both SAS and Norwegian cross Swedish and Finnish airspace on OSL-KKN.
Ignorance kills. :tombstone:
 
roseflyer
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RE: Domestic Flight Crossing Other Country Airspace

Mon Aug 11, 2014 11:52 am

The dispatchers decide the most effective route. Sometimes overflight fees are a factor and expensive enough for the dispatcher to decide to avoid crossing another country and some times not. It depends on winds and other conditions. The FAA is increasing overflight fees, which likely will have an impact on Canadian operations crossing the United States.

Effective Date En-Route* Oceanic*
October 1, 2012 $43.82 $18.60
October 1, 2013 $49.95 $20.09
October 1, 2014 $56.86 $21.63

For those that do not know, the FAA charges fees (in per 100 nm) to any airline flying over US airspace that does not land at a US airport. Most countries have similar fees.

I have seen flights take different routes on different days. One example is IAH-HNL. Most days they take a route that keeps them out of Mexican airspace.

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/U...1/history/20140808/1500Z/KIAH/PHNL

On occasion they take a more direct routing and fly over Mexico.

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/U...1/history/20140801/1500Z/KIAH/PHNL
If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
 
Viscount724
Posts: 19316
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RE: Domestic Flight Crossing Other Country Airspace

Tue Aug 12, 2014 3:52 am

Quoting UAEflyer (Thread starter):
As the topic says
example: If you took flight from YYZ to YVR you would have 2 routes to follow, either stay inside Canada airspace or you fly over the United States airspace.
For the airline to do business (Canadian & none Canadian) if they will fly this route, which is more economical for them, flying into the US airspace where may some fees are applicable, or stay in Canada airspace and make it domestic flight.

I know that some international airline fly between YYZ & YVR due to range restriction, other airlines fly JFK to YVR for the same reason.
Quoting chuchoteur (Reply 1):
I would say it depends on the relevant navigation charges,

Would also depend on weather/winds etc. On a route like YVR-YYZ, assuming same flight time, it should normally be cheaper to overfly the U.S. as much as possible in order to avoid the Nav Canada fees. May be wrong but I don't think the U.S. applies any overflight fees, or has that changed?

On the great circle route YVR-YYZ, roughly half the trip is over Canada and half over the U.S. But it's not much further to stay over the U.S. almost all the way. I expect it also depends where the jetstream winds are at the time. If they overfly the U.S.they also have to provide passenger details to the U.S. authorities per their security rules to keep anyone on a U.S. no-fly list away from their airspace.

For example, on August 11 it looks like all 18 AC nonstops YVR-YYZ stayed in Canadian airspace all the way, much like this one:
http://flightaware.com/live/flight/A...2/history/20140811/2115Z/CYVR/CYYZ

But westbound flights that day overflew the U.S. for much of the trip, like this example:
http://flightaware.com/live/flight/A...5/history/20140811/1300Z/CYYZ/CYVR

But a few days ago they were operating mostly over the U.S. eastbound also, like this August 7 example:
http://flightaware.com/live/flight/A...0/history/20140807/2300Z/CYVR/CYYZ
 
ghYHZ
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RE: Domestic Flight Crossing Other Country Airspace

Wed Aug 13, 2014 8:39 am

Flights between the Maritimes and central Canada: YHZ, YQM, YSJ, YYG etc to YUL, YOW and YYZ are always in US airspace for part of the flight. In all my years of flying between Halifax and Toronto I have never once gone up over the tip of Maine and into Quebec to avoid the US.

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/W...8/history/20140813/0125Z/CYYZ/CYHZ

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/A...5/history/20140810/0105Z/CYHZ/CYYZ
 
PanHAM
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RE: Domestic Flight Crossing Other Country Airspace

Wed Aug 13, 2014 1:54 pm

Only the first feedom of the air can apply here , although it is the right to overfly from home Country to another Country. Replace "another Country" by "home Country"

Same applies for N registered aircraft on the way to Alaska.

May be some more examples on Routings in Malaysia/Indonesia.
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
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tjwgrr
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RE: Domestic Flight Crossing Other Country Airspace

Wed Aug 13, 2014 1:59 pm

Many, many domestic US flights routinely cross southern Ontario to/from the NE US.
Direct KNOBS, maintain 2700' until established on the localizer, cleared ILS runway 26 left approach.
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Domestic Flight Crossing Other Country Airspace

Wed Aug 13, 2014 2:34 pm

Quoting tjwgrr (Reply 7):

Many, many domestic US flights routinely cross southern Ontario to/from the NE US.

Yup. It's just 100-200nm. If Canadian overflight fees are comparable to those of the US, then it would add a trivial cost per passenger to do that. When I lived in NYC and flew "home" to DTW, we'd cross Southern Ontario all the time.
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roseflyer
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RE: Domestic Flight Crossing Other Country Airspace

Wed Aug 13, 2014 4:07 pm

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 4):

Would also depend on weather/winds etc. On a route like YVR-YYZ, assuming same flight time, it should normally be cheaper to overfly the U.S. as much as possible in order to avoid the Nav Canada fees. May be wrong but I don't think the U.S. applies any overflight fees, or has that changed?

In the post above yours, I shared the FAA overflight fees. These are for flights that do not take off or land at a US airport. They would be applicable if an airline entered US airspace while flying YVR-YYZ.

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 3):
The FAA is increasing overflight fees, which likely will have an impact on Canadian operations crossing the United States.

Effective Date En-Route* Oceanic*
October 1, 2012 $43.82 $18.60
October 1, 2013 $49.95 $20.09
October 1, 2014 $56.86 $21.63
If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
 
Mir
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RE: Domestic Flight Crossing Other Country Airspace

Wed Aug 13, 2014 6:28 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 8):
Quoting tjwgrr (Reply 7):

Many, many domestic US flights routinely cross southern Ontario to/from the NE US.

Yup. It's just 100-200nm. If Canadian overflight fees are comparable to those of the US, then it would add a trivial cost per passenger to do that. When I lived in NYC and flew "home" to DTW, we'd cross Southern Ontario all the time.

I don't think there are any overflight fees for that at all. At higher altitudes the airspace over Lake Erie and a bit of southern Ontario is actually controlled by Cleveland ARTCC, so Canada has nothing to do with it. Only if you go north of a line roughly between Buffalo and the southern end of Lake Huron do you start talking to Toronto Center, and then the overflight fees start.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
ghYHZ
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RE: Domestic Flight Crossing Other Country Airspace

Wed Aug 13, 2014 10:09 pm

In a slight twist on the topic.....besides overflying Michigan’s Upper Peninsula, the Canadian Government once contributed funding to establish airports and radio range stations at Kinross, Grand Marais and Houghton, Michigan in the late 1940's.

Some background: Trans Canada Airlines (now Air Canada) original transcontinental route to Winnipeg and onto Vancouver was north of Lake Superior through Kapuskasing and Armstrong, Ontario. In 1947 the airway was realigned to provide a shorter route from Manitoulin Island, Ontario to Port Arthur-Fort William (today’s Thunder Bay) across Michigan. Canada’s DOT required airports at approximately 100 mile intervals along the airway so there was a need to establish the airports and the funding contribution.

TCA actually managed the airport at Kinross, Michigan until the USAF took over and TCA became the tenant. Sault Ste Marie, Ontario was served from Kinross until Top
 
Viscount724
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RE: Domestic Flight Crossing Other Country Airspace

Thu Aug 14, 2014 3:50 am

Quoting ghYHZ (Reply 11):
Some background: Trans Canada Airlines (now Air Canada)

Minor nitpick: Their old name was Trans-Canada Air Lines (Air Lines two words, also a hyphen between Trans and Canada). Common errors even when that was their name.

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 9):
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 4):

Would also depend on weather/winds etc. On a route like YVR-YYZ, assuming same flight time, it should normally be cheaper to overfly the U.S. as much as possible in order to avoid the Nav Canada fees. May be wrong but I don't think the U.S. applies any overflight fees, or has that changed?


In the post above yours, I shared the FAA overflight fees. These are for flights that do not take off or land at a US airport. They would be applicable if an airline entered US airspace while flying YVR-YYZ.

On a slightly related point, does anyone know how Nav Canada is compensated (or are they?) for providing ATC services for flights using Bellingham (BLI)? Vancouver ATC at least handles the IFR arrivals until the flight is switched to BLI tower. Same thing for departures. Even AS flights BLI-SEA are controlled by Vancouver for the first part of the flight after it switches from tower frequency and before switching to Seattle Center. Seems odd that Nav Canada would do that without some compensating fees.
 
EL-AL
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RE: Domestic Flight Crossing Other Country Airspace

Thu Aug 14, 2014 6:26 am

I took a domestic flight in Laos in 2011, VTE-PKZ, and about 85% of the flight was over another country - Thailand. Domesic flights in Vietnam also cross to other contries, Cambodia and Laos.
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