Air Marshal On Board - Does The Crew Know About?

dfwjim1 · Wed Sep 10, 2014 3:45 pm

In regards to the United States Air Marshal program. do the pilots and cabin crew know when an Air Marshal(s) is on board their plane? Or is this a case of the fewer people knowing the better?

Thanks

Woodreau · Wed Sep 10, 2014 5:33 pm

Yes.

(filler)

(filler)

hufftheweevil · Wed Sep 10, 2014 5:53 pm

Think about this: If they were kept in the dark, then anyone with a fake badge could be one.

The crew has to know.

flymia · Wed Sep 10, 2014 7:32 pm

Yes. They know who he is. Makes things a lot safer knowing that. They know whenever they have any armed federal law enforcment officer on board.

INFINITI329 · Wed Sep 10, 2014 10:20 pm

Quoting flymia (Reply 3):
They know whenever they have any armed federal law enforcment officer on board.

They know anytime there is armed law enforcement on aboard be it federal,state or local.

737tdi · Thu Sep 11, 2014 12:19 am

JMO but this is not something that should be discussed in depth on this "public" forum.

Viscount724 · Thu Sep 11, 2014 12:37 am

Quoting flymia (Reply 3):
Yes. They know who he is.

Are there no female Air Marshals?

GlobalMoose · Thu Sep 11, 2014 3:14 am

To be more specific than the shotgun yes:

See 14 CFR 108.11 for the full regulation, but the highlight for telling the certificate holder (PIC) comes from (a)(3)(i):

"of the flight on which the armed person intends to have the weapon accessible to him or her at least 1 hour, or in an emergency as soon as practicable..."

thaiflyer · Thu Sep 11, 2014 6:25 pm

Quoting 737tdi (Reply 5):

don't be so dramatic, Nothing is said here which can't be found on Google.

Tugger · Thu Sep 11, 2014 11:47 pm

Quoting infiniti329 (Reply 4):
They know anytime there is armed law enforcement on aboard be it federal,state or local.

I have gone with a friend of mine that is in law enforcement (not an air marshal, of course) and the "dance" (procedure) that occurs for notification at each point in the process was quite interesting to observe (what I could). Everyone was quite easy with it, if you do it, you know and know what to do and who to speak with etc., all VERY professional (and low key).

You can't "just check it" etc. If you carry you want it in your control at all times.

I will note that the air marshal also knows/is informed of anyone that is armed (known to be) on the flight (but not vice versa of course).

Tugg

flymia · Thu Sep 11, 2014 11:50 pm

Quoting infiniti329 (Reply 4):
They know anytime there is armed law enforcement on aboard be it federal,state or local.

Do state and local officers carry on commercial flights? I thought only Feds were allowed to?

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 6):
Are there no female Air Marshals?

I presume there are some, but not many. But we have no demographic info on FAMs its top secret. No idea how many there are either.

Tugger · Fri Sep 12, 2014 12:27 am

Quoting flymia (Reply 10):
I presume there are some, but not many. But we have no demographic info on FAMs its top secret. No idea how many there are either.

Why do you think planes are flying out so full now??? Hmmm?

Tugg

WNCrew · Fri Sep 12, 2014 2:48 am

Quoting 737tdi (Reply 5):
JMO but this is not something that should be discussed in depth on this "public" forum.

I agree.

Quoting Thaiflyer (Reply 8):
don't be so dramatic, Nothing is said here which can't be found on Google.

Then Google it...

INFINITI329 · Mon Sep 15, 2014 8:22 am

Quoting flymia (Reply 10):
Do state and local officers carry on commercial flights? I thought only Feds were allowed to?

They are allowed to (if their department policy allows) but they MUST get prior approval from DHS.

mmo · Mon Sep 15, 2014 8:57 am

Quoting infiniti329 (Reply 13):
They are allowed to (if their department policy allows) but they MUST get prior approval from DHS.

Not quite. The Captain has to give his approval. I know of several Captains at various airlines who will not allow weapons on board unless the individual is on official business.

Max Q · Mon Sep 15, 2014 9:48 am

It really is best not to discuss this and give out information on the program.

Cubsrule · Mon Sep 15, 2014 2:57 pm

Quoting Max Q (Reply 15):
It really is best not to discuss this and give out information on the program.

I am all for keeping sensitive security information that ought not be public out of the public domain, but I'm not for suppressing information that, like the OP's question, is a matter of federal (regulatory) law and thus in the public domain already.

Max Q · Tue Sep 16, 2014 4:16 am

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 16):
I am all for keeping sensitive security information that ought not be public out of the public domain, but I'm not for suppressing information that, like the OP's question, is a matter of federal (regulatory) law and thus in the public domain already.

Except its not in the public domain.

And for good reason.

mmo · Tue Sep 16, 2014 5:56 am

Quoting Max Q (Reply 17):
Except its not in the public domain

Well, for one, it's in the FARs. Here is another link if you can't find the FAR reference. www.tsa.gov/about-tsa/law-enforcement-officers-flying-armed I can't figure out what your objection is because clearly there are published procedures.

deltal1011man · Tue Sep 16, 2014 6:56 am

Quoting Max Q (Reply 17):

uh, yes it is. FARs are public domain....

Yes the crews know who is armed on flights.

Quoting WNCrew (Reply 12):
Then Google it...

or ask the question on here. My goodness do you really think your helping the terrorist by pointing out FARs? There is so much stuff posted on anet that shouldn't be.......and this is what you guys(or gals) point as something that shouldn't be posted?

Your letting them win..........

Max Q · Tue Sep 16, 2014 10:06 am

Quoting mmo (Reply 18):
Well, for one, it's in the FARs. Here is another link if you can't find the FAR reference. www.tsa.gov/about-tsa/law-enforcement-officers-flying-armed I can't figure out what your objection is because clearly there are published procedures.

Incorrect again. Your link is simply a description of law enforcement officers requirements they have to meet to fly armed.

Very different from what the poster wanted to know:

Quoting DFWJIM1 (Thread starter):
In regards to the United States Air Marshal program. do the pilots and cabin crew know when an Air Marshal(s) is on board their plane? Or is this a case of the fewer people knowing the better?

His last sentence says it best and he's right, that information is not made public.
As I said, for good reason.

[Edited 2014-09-16 03:08:25]

[Edited 2014-09-16 03:09:57]

deltal1011man · Tue Sep 16, 2014 10:19 am

Quoting Max Q (Reply 20):
His last sentence says it best and he's right, that information is not made public.

huh...are Air Marshals not law enforcement officers?

mmo · Tue Sep 16, 2014 10:33 am

Quoting Max Q (Reply 20):
His last sentence says it best and he's right, that information is not made public.
As I said, for good reason

This is easy........

I suggest you might want to google a little and you will find this publication. "Plane clothes : lack of anonymity at the Federal Air Marshal Service ...
By United States, Committee on the Judiciary, Congress, House Publishes May 25, 2006"

If you are so worried about sensitive information, I suggest you contact the house committee.

You might want to do a search of the ASR database. There is a plethora of information contained in there.

I could continue but I think you get my point........

Max Q · Tue Sep 16, 2014 10:50 am

Quoting mmo (Reply 22):
This is easy........

I suggest you might want to google a little and you will find this publication. "Plane clothes : lack of anonymity at the Federal Air Marshal Service ...
By United States, Committee on the Judiciary, Congress, House Publishes May 25, 2006"

If you are so worried about sensitive information, I suggest you contact the house committee.

You might want to do a search of the ASR database. There is a plethora of information contained in there.

I could continue but I think you get my point........

And you completely miss it my friend.

mmo · Tue Sep 16, 2014 11:34 am

Quoting Max Q (Reply 23):
And you completely miss it my friend.

Well, then perhaps you could enlighten us with just what your point is. Obviously, you think the information is "sensitive" and should not be discussed on this forum. However, anyone with a modicum of intelligence would be able to use any search engine and get all the information that is publically available. The information is not censored nor is it restricted. I am puzzled why you object!!!!

n6238p · Tue Sep 16, 2014 2:22 pm

Here's my take on things, in one of my airlines manuals, there's a special section. This section is labeled security sensitive information. Oh it's filled will all sorts of information everybody sitting in front of a keyboard would love to know about. At the bottom of every page theres a giant boxed warning that explicitly states "No part of this record may be disclosed to persons without a "need to know." It continues with words such as "Unauthorized release may result in civil penalty or other action" Oh I can type out the whole warning where it also lists was part of CFR 49 this falls under if I wanted to but I don't feel like it.

Anyways anything in that section is not to be discussed and this topic is one of those, especially on the internet. Not only is it illegal but also it is reckless. I don't care care if the "info" is already "out there". Crew members don't talk about these things and I'm sorry if anyone thinks this is us being a party pooper. There is no arguining this, it's common sense and it's the law.

Woodreau · Tue Sep 16, 2014 4:02 pm

Quoting n6238p (Reply 25):
At the bottom of every page theres a giant boxed warning that explicitly states "No part of this record may be disclosed to persons without a "need to know."

You mean this?

Warning: This document contains sensitive security information that is controlled under the provisions of 49 CFR Part 1520. No part of this document may be released without the written permission of the Undersecretary of Transportation for Security, Washington, D.C. 20591. Unauthorized release may result in civil penalty or other action.

or this?

Warning: This document contains sensitive security information that is controlled under 49 CFR Parts 15 and 1520. No part of this document may be disclosed to persons without a “need to know,” as defined in 49 CFR Parts 15 and 1520, except with the written permission of the Administrator of the Transportation Security Administration or the Secretary of Transportation. Unauthorized release may result in civil penalties or other action.

I've never bothered to read it because the print was so small. I still couldn't read it with a magnifying glass. I gave up, then realized I could blow it up 1600% in Acrobat Reader and then copy and paste it.

n6238p · Tue Sep 16, 2014 4:13 pm

Yea, that. Sounds like we should probably not talk about the things on the pages that end with that box.

mmo · Tue Sep 16, 2014 7:24 pm

Quoting n6238p (Reply 27):
Yea, that. Sounds like we should probably not talk about the things on the pages that end with that box.

Then why has the publication been released???????? This is much ado about nothing!!!!

n6238p · Tue Sep 16, 2014 7:47 pm

This publication is not for public eyes. Good luck going to the local library and renting a copy of my Ops Manual. You really want to know whats in there? Go get hired to fly for an airline. Until that happens this info isn't for you. Sorry?

JHwk · Tue Sep 16, 2014 11:54 pm

Quoting mmo (Reply 24):
Well, then perhaps you could enlighten us with just what your point is. Obviously, you think the information is "sensitive" and should not be discussed on this forum.

If it is SSI, then a person briefed on the SSI cannot discuss it... even if it is obvious or public domain elsewhere.

However, there are a whole lot of people in the aviation industry who are not formally briefed on specific policies and therefore do not need to treat it as SSI. This is a very broad interpretation and many specifics would be treated differently.

Tugger · Wed Sep 17, 2014 3:46 am

Quoting n6238p (Reply 29):
This publication is not for public eyes. Good luck going to the local library and renting a copy of my Ops Manual. You really want to know whats in there? Go get hired to fly for an airline. Until that happens this info isn't for you. Sorry?

If I am correct the entire manual is not for "release" and there is a statement to that effect in the manual. The parts you are referring to are required to be included by the government.

Quoting JHwk (Reply 30):
If it is SSI, then a person briefed on the SSI cannot discuss it... even if it is obvious or public domain elsewhere.

However, there are a whole lot of people in the aviation industry who are not formally briefed on specific policies and therefore do not need to treat it as SSI. This is a very broad interpretation and many specifics would be treated differently.

I don't think anyone expects people who can't discuss the issue to discuss the issue. But those that can and wish to should and should be able to. If there is information that should not be out then it should be made known so that changes can be made. If someone can find out something that they shouldn't know, that would give them an advantage then authorities need to be aware to prevent any harm. This is why a free press and freedom of speech is so very important.

Tugg

deltal1011man · Wed Sep 17, 2014 9:31 am

Quoting Tugger (Reply 31):
I don't think anyone expects people who can't discuss the issue to discuss the issue. But those that can and wish to should and should be able to. If there is information that should not be out then it should be made known so that changes can be made. If someone can find out something that they shouldn't know, that would give them an advantage then authorities need to be aware to prevent any harm. This is why a free press and freedom of speech is so very important.

Quoting n6238p (Reply 25):

I don't think anyone asked you to post anything from an Ops manual.

discussing FARs isn't illegal.

If anyone, Air marshal or local cop, is flying armed they are to let the flight crew know and give the proper paper work. That answers the OP's question.

mmo · Wed Sep 17, 2014 9:36 am

Quoting n6238p (Reply 29):
This publication is not for public eyes. Good luck going to the local library and renting a copy of my Ops Manual. You really want to know whats in there? Go get hired to fly for an airline. Until that happens this info isn't for you. Sorry?

What!!!!!???? The document I quoted was available through Google Kindle.....It is also in the House archives.

Quoting n6238p (Reply 29):
This publication is not for public eyes. Good luck going to the local library and renting a copy of my Ops Manual. You really want to know whats in there? Go get hired to fly for an airline. Until that happens this info isn't for you. Sorry?

Again, I have to ask What?????!!!!! The publication I quotes IS for public viewing. There was no mention of an Ops manual. Where did you get that nugget?????

Oh, and by the way, I do work for an airline...have for 35 years....So, I suggest you might want to revise your post.

Max Q · Wed Sep 17, 2014 10:11 am

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 32):
If anyone, Air marshal or local cop, is flying armed they are to let the flight crew know and give the proper paper work. That answers the OP's question.

Except that was not his question, this was:

Quoting DFWJIM1 (Thread starter):
In regards to the United States Air Marshal program. do the pilots and cabin crew know when an Air Marshal(s) is on board their plane? Or is this a case of the fewer people knowing the better?

Thanks

The poster knew better, as he stated in his last sentence.

You should drop it.

[Edited 2014-09-17 03:14:57]

[Edited 2014-09-17 03:15:45]

Cubsrule · Wed Sep 17, 2014 12:19 pm

Quoting n6238p (Reply 27):
Yea, that. Sounds like we should probably not talk about the things on the pages that end with that box.

The point you are missing, I think, is that there may be some facts, rules or procedures that are treated as SSI for those people with SSI access but are also in the public domain and, therefore, can (and arguably should) be discussed by those who are not constrained by the SSI rules.

For instance, an Ops manual might say something like this: If an FAM is on board, he will notify you of his presence in this way. The bolded part of that sentence likely is SSI. The other part of the sentence is not. But in the context of an Ops manual, it's not really possible to separate the two parts of the sentence and still have the whole document make sense.

Section 108.11(a)(4) requires that all armed persons, including FAMs, notify certificate holders of their presence. Section 108.14(c), which applies only to FAMs, also necessarily requires that FAMs notify certificate holders of their presence because otherwise the certificate holder cannot assign them "the specific seat requested."

Tugger · Wed Sep 17, 2014 3:34 pm

To make certain members here more comfortable:

Tugg

flymia · Wed Sep 17, 2014 10:47 pm

Yea, I'm not a flight crew member of any airline. I knew the answer. Anyone could find the answer online and a lot more about FAMs. There is absolutely nothing being discussed here which is a big secret...

737tdi · Thu Sep 18, 2014 5:08 am

Quoting Thaiflyer (Reply 8):
don't be so dramatic, Nothing is said here which can't be found on Google.

Really, are you sure about that? There are plenty of things that someone who works for an airline and has a SIDA badge knows that you can't find on "Google". Same with inside knowledge of security at airports and the activities of Air Marshals. So know it is n

Quoting infiniti329 (Reply 4):
They know anytime there is armed law enforcement on aboard be it federal,state or local.

You all knew about THIS! I don't freaking think so. And uneducated folks surely didn't. Terrorists peruse these sites finding ways to interdict. I knew all of this but I bet 99.9% of the folks in this world did not. Now all they have to do is search Air Marshals. The newer posts come up first, boneheads. It takes no time to find loop holes. Now that everyone knows then all they have to do is overcome an FA and either the Marshall identifies himself or the FA dies. Quit talking about this stuff.

Quoting flymia (Reply 38):
Yea, I'm not a flight crew member of any airline. I knew the answer. Anyone could find the answer online and a lot more about FAMs. There is absolutely nothing being discussed here which is a big secret...

Really, you think you know all of the procedures of every airline and every airport and every TSA post? Wow, you are so wrong. That is the info. that can come out in these posts that is harmful. People think it is common knowledge but that little bit of info. might be enough to get someone to try and if they succeed it is our fault.

PhilBy · Thu Sep 18, 2014 5:17 am

Ignoring the "Big Scary Secret" we could look at this logically:

During a flight over US territory a crew member happens to spot that one of the passengers is carrying a firearm. Having no information on this passenger beyond what is on the boarding pass do they:

A) Shrug their shoulders and ignore the issue as none of their business. After-all no-one would ever attempt to hijack an airliner for nefarious purposes!
B) Approach the passenger and ask if they can borrow his toy while they explain something to that obnoxious passenger in 21C
C) Inform the captain who contacts the security services and immediately diverts to the nearest airfield accompanied by two interceptors

Cubsrule · Thu Sep 18, 2014 12:29 pm

Quoting 737tdi (Reply 39):
Now that everyone knows then all they have to do is overcome an FA and either the Marshall identifies himself or the FA dies. Quit talking about this stuff.

This is pretty obvious with or without this thread, no?

Keeping SSI secret is absolutely appropriate. Keeping the law, which is and should be public knowledge, secret is not.

hufftheweevil · Thu Sep 18, 2014 4:53 pm

Quoting PhilBy (Reply 39):
Ignoring the "Big Scary Secret" we could look at this logically:

During a flight over US territory a crew member happens to spot that one of the passengers is carrying a firearm. Having no information on this passenger beyond what is on the boarding pass do they:

A) Shrug their shoulders and ignore the issue as none of their business. After-all no-one would ever attempt to hijack an airliner for nefarious purposes!
B) Approach the passenger and ask if they can borrow his toy while they explain something to that obnoxious passenger in 21C
C) Inform the captain who contacts the security services and immediately diverts to the nearest airfield accompanied by two interceptors

That was my point in reply 2. But no one else here seems to think logically, including the OP who could have avoided asking the question if he thought it out logically. No disrespect to anyone, but I don't understand how this thread has gone past 2 replies.

Now it's just turned into a argument with two clearly defined sides that can not be persuaded. Why isn't this thread locked yet?

KBJCpilot · Thu Sep 18, 2014 6:06 pm

I've traveled with companions who are LEO and carried their firearm. I will say with confidence that the air crew (pilots, FA's, etc) beforehand who is a FAM or LEO and who will be carrying a weapon, what seat they are occupying, and who else is in their party. The LEO's board with everyone else as not to stand out and they keep their firearm well hidden as not to alarm the other passengers. On any given flight there is a chance that the person sitting next to you is armed if they are a LEO. My friends "in the business" always carry when they fly whether it is for business or not and I feel a little safer knowing they are armed.

I'll stop there but rest assured that it happens quite often.

KaiGywer · Thu Sep 18, 2014 6:28 pm

Question asked and answered. The thread is now locked.

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