avgeekery
Topic Author
Posts: 10
Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2014 9:56 pm

Strongest Legal Crosswinds

Wed Oct 22, 2014 6:44 am

Earlier tonight I posted a story on Avgeekery about a Qantas A-380 landing in a 42 knot crosswind.

http://www.avgeekery.com/blog/2014/1...irbus-a-380-in-a-42-knot-crosswind

It got me thinking, what is the strongest crosswind that an any airliner can land in?

For Boeing/Airbus and McD airplanes, I'm assuming its around 45 kts.

Do Russian airlines have more liberal limits?

Interested in any insights you have!
Avgeekery.com
 
User avatar
zeke
Posts: 14388
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:42 pm

RE: Strongest Legal Crosswinds

Wed Oct 22, 2014 6:56 am

The certification requirement is around 23 kts, the A380 during certification did 56 kts.

RW 36, and that wind, it's 38 kts crosswind.

Most aircraft have a max demonstrated, rather than a hard limit.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
skyhawkmatthew
Posts: 480
Joined: Wed Oct 26, 2005 4:42 pm

RE: Strongest Legal Crosswinds

Wed Oct 22, 2014 7:36 am

As Zeke said, generally aircraft have a maximum demonstrated crosswind, not a limit. This is the greatest crosswind the aircraft experienced during the certification process – so if there wasn't greater crosswind 'available' during certification then a given type might end up with a fairly low max demonstrated crosswind. There is no legal requirement so far as absolute maximum crosswind, however most airlines' operations manuals likely state that landings are not to be attempted above a given crosswind component, and legally the crew must then abide by that restriction.
Qantas - The Spirit of Australia.
 
Caryjack
Posts: 404
Joined: Tue May 08, 2007 9:45 am

RE: Strongest Legal Crosswinds

Wed Oct 22, 2014 8:54 am

I'm sure the crosswind calculation is built into modern commercial aircraft but the comments in the following link indicates it is not as straight forward as you would think. Reply 6 asks a test question which several posters give different answers.

http://blogs.warwick.ac.uk/csmith/entry/calculating_the_crosswind/

On airliners such as the B-77W and the A-340, where does the crosswind speed pop up?

Quoting skyhawkmatthew (Reply 2):
As Zeke said, generally aircraft have a maximum demonstrated crosswind, not a limit. This is the greatest crosswind the aircraft experienced during the certification process – so if there wasn't greater crosswind 'available' during certification then a given type might end up with a fairly low max demonstrated crosswind.

This is my understanding.

Quoting skyhawkmatthew (Reply 2):
There is no legal requirement so far as absolute maximum crosswind, however most airlines' operations manuals likely state that landings are not to be attempted above a given crosswind component, and legally the crew must then abide by that restriction.

If the aircraft ended up with a fairly low max demonstrated crosswind speed would it be reasonable for an operations manual to specify a higher speed?

Thanks,   
Cary
 
User avatar
Semaex
Posts: 803
Joined: Mon Nov 23, 2009 4:17 pm

RE: Strongest Legal Crosswinds

Wed Oct 22, 2014 1:39 pm

I don't like the "article" on avgeekery. It's sensationalist. And not true.

For an aviation Website, I would think there to be a Little more accuracy when it Comes to crosswing component calculation:
Runway 36L, wind from 290°, that's 70° off, gusting 42kn. Which means a crossing component of max 39kn. That's pretty much what Zeke already posted, and still very high, but not the same as 42kn.

Quote:

And that's why pilots get paid the big bucks. Keeping over 400 passengers safe while flying a $200M+ jet in challenging conditions is no small task. The pilots are everyday heroes who make the difficult look easy. We can only guess that as they rolled out on the runway in such treacherous conditions, the captain told the copilot, " Keep those crosswind controls in, mate!"

  

And let's be honest, we've all seen that Video of the JAL 747 in Kai Tak. That's what I call a crosswind landing.
// You know you're an aviation enthusiast if you look at your neighbour's cars and think about fleet commonality.
 
maxpower1954
Posts: 1067
Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 1:14 am

RE: Strongest Legal Crosswinds

Wed Oct 22, 2014 2:00 pm

For my 1957 Cessna 172, the book says the max demonstrated crosswind is 12 knots. Perfectly legal to land in greater than a 12 knot knot crosswind - under FAR Part 91 rules.

On the A320 series at my airline, under Limitations it shows a max crosswind of 29 knots, with max gusts to 35 knots. Under FAR 121, this is considered a hard limit, unlike my 172. This is under U.S. FAA rules; I don't know about other countries
 
DashTrash
Posts: 1307
Joined: Mon Aug 21, 2006 8:44 am

RE: Strongest Legal Crosswinds

Wed Oct 22, 2014 8:25 pm

Quoting maxpower1954 (Reply 5):

On the A320 series at my airline, under Limitations it shows a max crosswind of 29 knots, with max gusts to 35 knots. Under FAR 121, this is considered a hard limit, unlike my 172.

Bingo. We had 36 kts in the Dash 8, which was a published limitation. In our case even operating the aircraft under Part 91, the 36 kts was regulatory. We had 21 kts in the Citation X, which is also a hard limitation since the company put it in the FAA approved manuals.
 
AirFiero
Posts: 1461
Joined: Wed Aug 28, 2013 11:43 pm

RE: Strongest Legal Crosswinds

Wed Oct 22, 2014 9:41 pm

I landed a 182 in a 30+ knot crosswind at VNY once. Difficult, but doable.
 
avgeekery
Topic Author
Posts: 10
Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2014 9:56 pm

RE: Strongest Legal Crosswinds

Thu Oct 23, 2014 4:52 am

Quoting Semaex (Reply 4):

I don't like the "article" on avgeekery. It's sensationalist. And not true.

For an aviation Website, I would think there to be a Little more accuracy when it Comes to crosswing component calculation:
Runway 36L, wind from 290°, that's 70° off, gusting 42kn. Which means a crossing component of max 39kn. That's pretty much what Zeke already posted, and still very high, but not the same as 42kn.

As a pilot myself. I appreciate the feedback. I corrected the article to more accurately reflect that it was a 38 knot cross and not a 42 knot cross. My goal wasn't to make it sensational. I take great pride in sharing accurate stories that highlight the skill of pilots. I wrote the article late at night and didn't pay as much attention to detail as I should have. Thanks for the feedback. I appreciate it, really.

I still think that you have to appreciate the skill of the pilots though. I've never flown a 'super' before. But from experience, I know its tough to fly a 'heavy' in crosswinds that strong. Based on the rules I have to follow, those winds are out of limits.
Avgeekery.com
 
N757ST
Posts: 872
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2002 6:00 am

RE: Strongest Legal Crosswinds

Thu Oct 23, 2014 5:20 am

My airline is 38 knots gust included for the a320/21.
 
skyhawkmatthew
Posts: 480
Joined: Wed Oct 26, 2005 4:42 pm

RE: Strongest Legal Crosswinds

Thu Oct 23, 2014 7:22 am

Quoting Caryjack (Reply 3):
If the aircraft ended up with a fairly low max demonstrated crosswind speed would it be reasonable for an operations manual to specify a higher speed?

I imagine so, but for airline operations it most likely would need to be approved/tested by the manufacturer and would probably result in an amendment to the published manual detailing the new higher 'demonstrated' speed.

I've landed a light aeroplane (DA40) about 10kt (50%) above its demonstrated crosswind component; it was an interesting experience to say the least.
Qantas - The Spirit of Australia.
 
AAR90
Posts: 3140
Joined: Fri Jan 21, 2000 11:51 am

RE: Strongest Legal Crosswinds

Thu Oct 23, 2014 7:19 pm

Quoting avgeekery (Reply 8):
I still think that you have to appreciate the skill of the pilots though. I've never flown a 'super' before. But from experience, I know its tough to fly a 'heavy' in crosswinds that strong. Based on the rules I have to follow, those winds are out of limits.

I watched that A380 landing at DFW from Spot-137 {ramp exit Term-D}. The wind reported to the Qantas A380 was 300 degrees 30 knots with gusts to 37 knots. That equates to a maximum 33 knot crosswind on DFW's N/S runways {my Spin-A-Wind app is still set at that Monday's DFW values}. The only thing unusual about that A380 landing was the fact it used runway 36L while DFW ATC was mandating everybody takeoff from 31L/R only.
*NO CARRIER* -- A Naval Aviator's worst nightmare!
 
FlyMKG
Posts: 193
Joined: Tue Jan 04, 2005 4:49 am

RE: Strongest Legal Crosswinds

Thu Oct 23, 2014 9:22 pm

We had a crosswind limit of 29 kts for our 727s. After a trip couldn't depart home because of the xwind, the books were changed to a max demonstrated. This allows it to be up to the Captain to determine whether we depart or land.

FlyMKG
Essential Power, Operating Generator.
 
113312
Posts: 664
Joined: Sat Apr 16, 2005 9:09 am

RE: Strongest Legal Crosswinds

Fri Oct 24, 2014 6:19 pm

You would never see a commercial operator's manual stipulate a higher crosswind component than the amount demonstrated by the manufacturer during flight test. However, an operator may limit their crews and operations to a lower value. If you attempt a takeoff or landing with winds exceeding the demonstrated value, you become a test pilot.

That is all well and good if you get away with it. But if you blow a tire, scrape a wing, engine, or tail, not only will the insurance company be mad and question your judgement and competence, but the FAA or equivalent aviation authority will have you on the carpet for certificate (license) action. If you have such an incident in some countries, even when operating within the demonstrated limits, you might face arrest and criminal prosecution.
 
User avatar
zeke
Posts: 14388
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:42 pm

RE: Strongest Legal Crosswinds

Fri Oct 24, 2014 7:47 pm

This might help clear up some of the conflicting views

http://www.nlr-atsi.nl/downloads/cro...ication-how-does-it-affect-you.pdf
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
User avatar
flylku
Posts: 597
Joined: Sat Apr 08, 2006 10:44 pm

RE: Strongest Legal Crosswinds

Sun Oct 26, 2014 4:51 pm

I always look at "Max Demonstrated Crosswind" for part 91 as the conditions with which the test pilot in my airplane was comfortable. Since the test pilot has much more experienced than I have in the aircraft I respect the limit and set my personal limits a bit lower even though there is no legal requirement to do so.

Also, a steady speed and direction crosswind is less of a concern to me than one where the speed and direction is variable. It is much easier to get a stable approach going in steady conditions. I'm much more tuned into variability and the potential for wind shear.
...are we there yet?
 
TheSonntag
Posts: 4439
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2005 7:23 pm

RE: Strongest Legal Crosswinds

Mon Oct 27, 2014 9:15 am

I guess you all know this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jfB4xyM7tMw

There was actually considered a serious incident by the german accident board. The report might be interesting for this thread, too:

http://www.bfu-web.de/EN/Publication...landing.pdf?__blob=publicationFile
 
ElpinDAB
Posts: 444
Joined: Sun Apr 17, 2005 7:00 am

RE: Strongest Legal Crosswinds

Tue Oct 28, 2014 9:02 am

I have actually landed a jet at more than its max demonstrated component under 121 rules...But really, what is a knot or two in the grand scheme?

Everything was according to procedure, and the touch-down itself was smoother than many of my other landings, and right on centerline...Landing at more than the max demonstrated was something that happened after a wind report from the time of our touchdown from at the time of touchdown. Winds we had at the time of touchdown were right up to max, but not quite, so we were legal. At the time of touchdown, and afterwards, were when the winds were reported to be greater than or equal to the max given. So, legal.

Gusts were to over 50kts, but the alignment was within reason. Looking back, the winds were well more than the max tolerated by the CFM. I felt much more confident landing in the plane in those winds in hind-sight than taking it to an alternate that probably had strong winds too...

The day was really just normal for operations within what we do...I was just glad that I wasn't landing the jet on an icey runway...
 
vikkyvik
Posts: 12526
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2003 1:58 pm

RE: Strongest Legal Crosswinds

Mon Nov 03, 2014 9:13 pm

Quoting avgeekery (Thread starter):
Strongest Legal Crosswinds

I don't know the answer, but I've never seen a cop successfully pull over a crosswind for exceeding the limit.

Quoting AirFiero (Reply 7):
I landed a 182 in a 30+ knot crosswind at VNY once. Difficult, but doable.

Were you looking at the runway out of the side window?   I actually have no idea what the landing speed for a 182 is - can you shed some light?
I'm watching Jeopardy. The category is worst Madonna songs. "This one from 1987 is terrible".
 
airman99o
Posts: 895
Joined: Sat Aug 21, 1999 4:15 am

RE: Strongest Legal Crosswinds

Wed Nov 12, 2014 12:40 am

Shocked YYT wasn't mentioned. I have landed into some crazy winds there. I know they brought 777 in there a few years back for These sort of tests. Have been on many types into St John's worked on 319's 320's, full to the gills and still got blown around like a leaf. Some of my favourite landings. Amazing only have had 2 missed approaches into St john's since I first sat my ___ in an aircraft seat. :P Due to FOG......
Safety is Everyones Responsibility.
 
Viscount724
Posts: 19316
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:32 pm

RE: Strongest Legal Crosswinds

Wed Nov 12, 2014 12:54 am

Quoting airman99o (Reply 19):
Shocked YYT wasn't mentioned. I have landed into some crazy winds there. I know they brought 777 in there a few years back for These sort of tests. Have been on many types into St John's worked on 319's 320's, full to the gills and still got blown around like a leaf. Some of my favourite landings. Amazing only have had 2 missed approaches into St john's since I first sat my ___ in an aircraft seat. :P Due to FOG......

Reminds me of following item last Thursday in the Transport Canada daily occurrence reports:

A Turkish Airlines Airbus A330-300 (TC-JNS/ THY12) from New York, NY (KJFK) to Istanbul (LTBA), at 0647Z in the vicinity of SUTKO, flight declared a medical emergency and requested to divert to St John's, NL (CYYT). Flight cleared to CYYT and due to the winds executed a missed approach and requested to divert to Gander, NL (CYQX). Flight was cleared to and landed CYQX at 0726Z.
 
RetiredWeasel
Posts: 741
Joined: Sat Jul 05, 2014 8:16 pm

RE: Strongest Legal Crosswinds

Wed Nov 12, 2014 1:56 am

Max crosswind component for NWA 744 was 30 knots. I doubt Delta modified that number.

As a sidenote, I remember two incidents where the 747 scraped engine pods in crosswind landings. Both incidents were determined to be failure of the aircrew to hold enough aileron into the wind just after touchdown. In other words, the upwind wing started to fly again and the downwind outboard pod scraped the runway.

Most pilots were a little apprehensive about lowering too much upwind wing in the 'wing low method', but the scrapes were on the opposite wing. I don't know what the xwind component was in those incidents.
 
User avatar
Starlionblue
Posts: 19562
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2004 9:54 pm

RE: Strongest Legal Crosswinds

Wed Nov 12, 2014 2:07 am

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 18):
Quoting AirFiero (Reply 7):
I landed a 182 in a 30+ knot crosswind at VNY once. Difficult, but doable.

Were you looking at the runway out of the side window?   I actually have no idea what the landing speed for a 182 is - can you shed some light?

65-80kn depending on flap setting. 30 knot crosswind sounds... sporty. 
Quoting RetiredWeasel (Reply 21):
As a sidenote, I remember two incidents where the 747 scraped engine pods in crosswind landings. Both incidents were determined to be failure of the aircrew to hold enough aileron into the wind just after touchdown. In other words, the upwind wing started to fly again and the downwind outboard pod scraped the runway.

Kai Tak was notorious for that kind of "fun"... The very late final turn, often into a crosswind from the right, didn't help.


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Colin Parker - The HongKong Spotters

"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 15 guests

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos