LU9092
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Tex Johnston's (In)famous Barrel Roll

Mon Dec 29, 2014 10:01 pm

I recall that in an interview for a documentary, Tex Johnson stated that "the airplane didn't know it was upside down" because it was a 1G maneuver. What combination of control inputs are required on a plane with manual control linkages to ensure a barrel roll is 1G so that the airframe isn't unusually stressed and fuel pumps, etc continue to function properly? Would it be different for a FBW aircraft? I suppose it depends which FBW aircraft...am I correct to assume an A330 wouldn't let the pilot perform such a maneuver? What about a 777 or 787? The flight envelope protections on Boeing planes, if there are any at all, are much less discussed than those on Airbus planes. Thanks in advance for your replies!
 
CPH-R
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Tex Johnston's (In)famous Barrel Roll

Mon Dec 29, 2014 10:04 pm

Slightly related (since it has some info on what constitutes a barrel roll): CEO Of Cimber Air Barrel Rolls ATR42 (pictures) (by AirBoss May 12 2008 in Civil Aviation)
 
LU9092
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Tex Johnston's (In)famous Barrel Roll

Mon Dec 29, 2014 10:12 pm

Quoting CPH-R (Reply 1):

Thanks for that. I suppose that before I get a torrent of "you wouldn't want to barrel roll a 777" replies, I should state that I do understand that the maneuver isn't sanctioned or safe, etc. This is a hypothetical question, aside from the one about control inputs that would result in a 1G roll. For that question, feel free to assume I'm asking about a plane certified for aerobatics.  
 
rwessel
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Tex Johnston's (In)famous Barrel Roll

Mon Dec 29, 2014 10:22 pm

The basic concept is pretty simple, you're mainly flying a loop, with a bit of roll input. Doing it well is a different issue.

In short as you roll the aircraft, you continue to hold enough up elevator to load the aircraft to one G. In many ways a barrel roll isn't even a proper roll, but that's mostly beside the point. A significant difficulty is timing this so that you don't overspeed while you're upside down. If you start from a purely level position, you'll naturally end up with a very steep (inverted) dive by the time you get half way around, since for one G, in any attitude other that upright, you will naturally be headed downhill. When you're upside down, you'll be pulling one G "up", which is towards the ground, and the earth will be pulling down at one G, so you're actually accelerating towards the surface at *two* G. To avoid that start with a pull up, and then the roll happens as you fly a semi-parabolic arc. And you need to do this fairly quickly. If you dawdle while inverted, you're going to quickly end up pointed straight down.

It's a bit easier to do if you don't need to maintain one G all the way around - pulling up at two G and then reducing to (say) half a G by the time you get half way around (and then increasing again), is much easier to fly, although it won't win you any points in a contest!

When the protections are enabled, I the Airbusses limit you to something in the ballpark of 60 degrees of bank. The Boeings will complain at similar angles, but will let you continue if you apply enough force to the yoke.

[Edited 2014-12-29 14:24:39]

[Edited 2014-12-29 14:25:01]
 
LU9092
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Tex Johnston's (In)famous Barrel Roll

Mon Dec 29, 2014 11:31 pm

Quoting rwessel (Reply 3):

Ah, makes sense. The Tex Johnson video I've seen doesn't have a horizon in frame, and the initial climb looks insignificant compared to the descent coming out of the maneuver.

I've seen the Boeing envelope protection - if that's the right term - described as "complaining" more than once. I take it the pilot would feel the controls "pushing back" against his or her input? Does anyone know the amount of force required to overcome this resistance? It occurred to me that a pilot straining to overcome the resistance in one axis - for instance, commanding roll - may inadvertently end up commanding more pitch up or down (or less for that matter) than intended if the resistance were high enough to cause the pilot to really "lean into it."
 
OldAeroGuy
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Tex Johnston's (In)famous Barrel Roll

Tue Dec 30, 2014 6:15 am

You could barrel roll the 777 in normal law although the stick and wheel forces become high once you exceed the protected pitch and bank limits.

Have never done a barrel roll in a 777 simulator but have done a loop and an Immelmann turn.
Airplane design is easy, the difficulty is getting them to fly - Barnes Wallis
 
vikkyvik
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Tex Johnston's (In)famous Barrel Roll

Tue Dec 30, 2014 10:29 am

Quoting rwessel (Reply 3):

Thanks for that explanation - I'd always wondered the same but never got around to asking.

Out of curiosity, are the rolls that fighter pilots do at air shows 1G rolls, or just spin-the-airplane-around-so-fast-that-it-doesn't-have-time-to-react rolls?
I'm watching Jeopardy. The category is worst Madonna songs. "This one from 1987 is terrible".
 
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Starlionblue
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Tex Johnston's (In)famous Barrel Roll

Tue Dec 30, 2014 11:24 am

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 8):
Out of curiosity, are the rolls that fighter pilots do at air shows 1G rolls, or just spin-the-airplane-around-so-fast-that-it-doesn't-have-time-to-react rolls?

I have seen both, though typically normal rolls, as in remaining on one flight path and rolling. However Blue Angels et.al. also do barrel rolls.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
rwessel
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Tex Johnston's (In)famous Barrel Roll

Tue Dec 30, 2014 11:28 am

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 8):
Out of curiosity, are the rolls that fighter pilots do at air shows 1G rolls, or just spin-the-airplane-around-so-fast-that-it-doesn't-have-time-to-react rolls?

Most of those are aileron rolls, not barrel rolls. The major difference being that's it's mainly an actual roll (as a maneuver), and the G load does not stay positive throughout. When upside down, the pilot will be hanging from the straps. They can be pretty quick (some aerobatic aircraft have roll rates of 400 degrees* per second), or quite prolonged. Here's a Mustang doing a 16 point roll:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RnZ5uVUyahU


*Extra 300 with the upgraded ailerons.   
 
mmo
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Tex Johnston's (In)famous Barrel Roll

Tue Dec 30, 2014 7:39 pm

Quoting rwessel (Reply 10):
Most of those are aileron rolls, not barrel rolls.

I have over 2000 hours in a T-38, I can assure you those are barrel rolls! I do know the difference between a barrel roll and an aileron roll. A barrel roll will be a very constant 1G maneuver. You don't hand in your straps. The barrel roll is actually taught as an instrument maneuver and if you can do it on the instruments, under the bag, you can do it visually with no problems at all! In addition, the 38 has a roll rate of 720degrees/second, so you 'd better know the difference between an aileron roll and a barrel roll!
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Tex Johnston's (In)famous Barrel Roll

Tue Dec 30, 2014 8:25 pm

Quoting rwessel (Reply 3):
The basic concept is pretty simple, you're mainly flying a loop, with a bit of roll input. Doing it well is a different issue.

Blah, blah, blah, nag, nag, nag... do it well... puhlease!

How else do you expect four guys goofing around a bit in a rental twin to end up inverted at the end of an attempted split-S maneuver... Yeah been there, done that (well more accurately "experienced that" as I was a passenger).... Fun (but stupid in most any way you look at it. And for the safety minded out there: Don't try this at home, get proper training, and only do acrobatic maneuvers in appropriately rated aircraft.   )

Happily we had plenty o'altitude, righted the ship quickly, and didn't burn up the engines (or any number of other things that could have gone wrong when one does something they don't know how to do and in the wrong aircraft).

Quoting rwessel (Reply 10):
They can be pretty quick

Here's a nice quick one....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cgD9-faefiI#t=16s

Tugg
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LU9092
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Tex Johnston's (In)famous Barrel Roll

Tue Dec 30, 2014 8:40 pm

Speaking of aerobatics in aircraft not certified for it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hjVxQ1kKVk

Includes some smooth 1G action at the end.   
 
Pihero
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Tex Johnston's (In)famous Barrel Roll

Tue Dec 30, 2014 9:03 pm

This is a 1g barrel roll by a real pilot : Bob Hoover.
Watch the glass of iced tea and the way he can pour while barrel rolling the Aerocommander. all engines out !

Bob Hoover 1g roll and his iced tea
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LU9092
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Tex Johnston's (In)famous Barrel Roll

Tue Dec 30, 2014 9:09 pm

Quoting Pihero (Reply 14):

We have similar taste in YouTube videos!  
 
PanHAM
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RE: Tex Johnston's (In)famous Barrel Roll

Wed Dec 31, 2014 11:32 am

LH Pilots tried that on a training flight with a Boeing 720, in the 70s IIRC, they must have made a mistake, they crashed.
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
LU9092
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RE: Tex Johnston's (In)famous Barrel Roll

Wed Dec 31, 2014 6:24 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 14):

That crash was in 1964.

http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19640715-0&lang=en

Demonstrates clearly that being a test or aerobatic pilot requires more than brass balls.
 
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7BOEING7
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RE: Tex Johnston's (In)famous Barrel Roll

Wed Dec 31, 2014 6:47 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 14):
LH Pilots tried that on a training flight with a Boeing 720, in the 70s IIRC, they must have made a mistake, they crashed.

Actually there was one in December 1961 (D-ABOK) and possibly another in July of 1964 (D-ABOP). In reality there were probably more 707/720's barreled rolled by Boeing and airline pilots during training/demonstration flights than one would imagine. Rumor was one Boeing training pilot was put on half pay for a while after disregarding the companies policy on barrel rolls.
 
rwessel
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RE: Tex Johnston's (In)famous Barrel Roll

Wed Dec 31, 2014 8:35 pm

Quoting Tugger (Reply 10):
Here's a nice quick one....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cgD9-faefiI#t=16s

Tugg

That's a snap* roll, which is yet a different maneuver, quite unlike an aileron or barrel roll. It's really a spin, played out horizontally.


*Sometimes called a "flick"
 
Viscount724
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RE: Tex Johnston's (In)famous Barrel Roll

Wed Dec 31, 2014 9:37 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 14):
LH Pilots tried that on a training flight with a Boeing 720, in the 70s IIRC, they must have made a mistake, they crashed.

LH had no 720s in the 1970s. They sold their 6 surviving 720Bs to Pan Am between 1964 and 1966 after only 3 to 4 years LH service.
 
PanHAM
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RE: Tex Johnston's (In)famous Barrel Roll

Thu Jan 01, 2015 11:19 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 18):
LH had no 720s in the 1970s. They sold their 6 surviving 720Bs to Pan Am between 1964 and 1966 after only 3 to 4 years LH service

I should Google before I write something. Forgive my fading Memory, but that's why I usually take IIRC as a disclaimer.
I knew that LH crashed 2 B720s that way and I should have known that this was in the 60s, not the 70s. My bad.
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
Okie
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RE: Tex Johnston's (In)famous Barrel Roll

Thu Jan 01, 2015 4:27 pm

Quoting LU9092 (Reply 11):
Speaking of aerobatics in aircraft not certified for it:

One of my co-workers husband worked for Aero Commander and did the Mx on Hoovers aircraft.
Interesting conversations with him.

According to him the only two items that were non-standard from production line was a large hydraulic accumulator so that the landing gear could be operated with engines out and a larger hydraulic tank to contain that oil when it returned to the tank during his display.


Okie
 
BoeingGuy
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RE: Tex Johnston's (In)famous Barrel Roll

Tue Jan 06, 2015 7:06 am

Coincidentally, I lived next door for 20 years to the daughter of the Boeing test pilot who was in the right seat for the Seafair barrel rolls. He told me that Tex came out publically and asked customer pilots not to do it again after there were some accidents.

The OP is correct in that the 777 and 787 have FBW "Bank Angle Protection". The same Backdrive Actuators that backdrive the controls when the autopilot is engaged on the 777/787 will give an opposing wheel input to the ailerons when the airplane exceeds 35 degrees bank (35 IIRC). True to Boeing philosophy, the pilot can override it. It takes about 25 lbs of force IIRC. There is a force transducer that senses if the pilot is overriding the command and backs off the opposing force.

There are actually two ways to disable Bank Angle Protection (other than physically overriding it). One is to turn off the Primary Flight Computers disconnect switch to select the Direct mode, as one poster indicated above. The other is to pull down the white autopilot disengage bar on the Mode Control Panel. That provides an autopilot "positive disengage" on all Boeing models. On the 777/787 it removes power from the backdrive actuators.

Most Boeing airplanes also have aural "BANK ANGLE, BANK ANGLE" callouts at 35, 40 and 45 degrees.
 
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7BOEING7
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RE: Tex Johnston's (In)famous Barrel Roll

Tue Jan 06, 2015 5:19 pm

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 21):
The same Backdrive Actuators that backdrive the controls when the autopilot is engaged on the 777/787 will give an opposing wheel input to the ailerons when the airplane exceeds 35 degrees bank (35 IIRC).

Some airlines select the optional of 40 degrees.

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 21):
True to Boeing philosophy, the pilot can override it. It takes about 25 lbs of force IIRC. There is a force transducer that senses if the pilot is overriding the command and backs off the opposing force

The opposing force is not "backed off" but remains as long as the pilot continues to overbank the airplane.

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 21):
Most Boeing airplanes also have aural "BANK ANGLE, BANK ANGLE" callouts at 35, 40 and 45 degrees

Or the optional 40, 45, and 50.
 
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RE: Tex Johnston's (In)famous Barrel Roll

Tue Jan 06, 2015 8:39 pm

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 21):
There are actually two ways to disable Bank Angle Protection (other than physically overriding it). One is to turn off the Primary Flight Computers disconnect switch to select the Direct mode, as one poster indicated above. The other is to pull down the white autopilot disengage bar on the Mode Control Panel.

Please pardon my confusion, but does that mean that when the AP is disengaged flight envelope protections are disabled? Or maybe only bank angle protection? Do Airbus products follow the same design philosophy?
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7BOEING7
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RE: Tex Johnston's (In)famous Barrel Roll

Tue Jan 06, 2015 9:46 pm

Quoting hivue (Reply 23):
Please pardon my confusion, but does that mean that when the AP is disengaged flight envelope protections are disabled? Or maybe only bank angle protection?

When you're hand flying the airplane envelope protection is functioning, when you push either of the A/P ENGAGE switches and engage the autopilot envelope protection is still functioning, if you pull down the A/P DISENGAGE bar you among other things disable BAP (bank angle protection). If you then over bank the airplane you will get all the over bank indications but no increased force feedback.
 
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Jetlagged
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RE: Tex Johnston's (In)famous Barrel Roll

Tue Jan 06, 2015 9:59 pm

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 21):
Most Boeing airplanes also have aural "BANK ANGLE, BANK ANGLE" callouts at 35, 40 and 45 degrees.

The bank angle callouts come from the EGPWS, so they aren't Boeing specific. The bank angle limit for an aural alert is much lower at low radio altitude (11 deg from memory).

Quoting hivue (Reply 23):
Please pardon my confusion, but does that mean that when the AP is disengaged flight envelope protections are disabled? Or maybe only bank angle protection? Do Airbus products follow the same design philosophy?

No. The force feedback is always there, in autopilot and in manual flight. It's similar to the artifical feel system that aircraft with powered flight controls have. It makes the controls feel like a conventional aircraft would. In the case of Boeing FBW the artificial feel is used to put the pilot off pulling past a limit by increasing the force the pilot has to exert.

Airbus use so called "hard" limits in the FBW to protect the envelope. So the FBW prevents the pilot exceeding the limit. The limits aren't hard in the sense of coming on abruptly. Airbus sidesticks don't use force feedback, apart from the heavy centering spring with damping.
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LU9092
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RE: Tex Johnston's (In)famous Barrel Roll

Wed Jan 07, 2015 1:42 am

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 21):
Quoting 7BOEING7 (Reply 22):

Thank you both for all the info.
  
 
BoeingGuy
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RE: Tex Johnston's (In)famous Barrel Roll

Mon Jan 12, 2015 5:46 am

Quoting Jetlagged (Reply 25):
Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 21):
Most Boeing airplanes also have aural "BANK ANGLE, BANK ANGLE" callouts at 35, 40 and 45 degrees.

The bank angle callouts come from the EGPWS, so they aren't Boeing specific. The bank angle limit for an aural alert is much lower at low radio altitude (11 deg from memory).

I'm well aware of the feature that you state - the sliding scale Bank Angle threshold below 130 feet. However, this isn't on every Boeing airplane. Some just have straight 35, 40, 45 all the way to the ground.

The lower threshold below 130 feet is actually an option in the Option Catalog on some models. It's baseline on the 787 and KC-46.

Quoting 7BOEING7 (Reply 22):
Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 21):
The same Backdrive Actuators that backdrive the controls when the autopilot is engaged on the 777/787 will give an opposing wheel input to the ailerons when the airplane exceeds 35 degrees bank (35 IIRC).

Some airlines select the optional of 40 degrees.

I've worked as a 777 Instructor and Avionics Configurator and I've never heard of an option for the BAP threshold. I didn't even think the PFCs could be changed. I can definitely tell you that it's not in the 777 Option Catalog nor anything discussed with the customers.

Quoting 7BOEING7 (Reply 22):
Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 21):
Most Boeing airplanes also have aural "BANK ANGLE, BANK ANGLE" callouts at 35, 40 and 45 degrees

Or the optional 40, 45, and 50.

Same comment. In addition to the above, I've also worked extensively with EGPWS. Again, same comment. I've never heard of an option for 40,45,50 and it's not in the 777 option catalog nor anything discussed with the customers.

Quoting hivue (Reply 23):
Please pardon my confusion, but does that mean that when the AP is disengaged flight envelope protections are disabled? Or maybe only bank angle protection?

Actually that's a good question. The Fly-by-wire envelope protections are NOT disabled when the autopilot is engaged. However, the autopilot has more restrictive envelope protections than the Fly-By-Wire systems, so in theory they should never come into play. Bank Angle Protection activates at 35 degrees. The Autopilot is limited to 25 degrees in Heading Select and 30 degrees for LNAV and the ATT mode (the later also an optional mode).
 
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7BOEING7
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RE: Tex Johnston's (In)famous Barrel Roll

Mon Jan 12, 2015 5:39 pm

Quoting 7BOEING7 (Reply 22):
Some airlines select the optional of 40 degrees.
Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 27):
I've worked as a 777 Instructor and Avionics Configurator and I've never heard of an option for the BAP threshold. I didn't even think the PFCs could be changed. I can definitely tell you that it's not in the 777 Option Catalog nor anything discussed with the customers.
Quoting 7BOEING7 (Reply 22):
Or the optional 40, 45, and 50.
Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 27):
Same comment. In addition to the above, I've also worked extensively with EGPWS. Again, same comment. I've never heard of an option for 40,45,50 and it's not in the 777 option catalog nor anything discussed with the customers.

Maybe you ought to do a little more research, we delivered several 777's with those "optional" settings -- I admit I was shocked the first time I went to 35 degrees and nothing happened. I believe one of the customers was Cathay Pacific and it may have related to the different buffet margins FAA (1.2g) or CAA/JAA (1.3g). Up until I retired 3 years ago the 777 Production Acceptance Document had the 40 degree option listed for the BAP check. Things may have changed in the last 3 years.
 
BoeingGuy
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RE: Tex Johnston's (In)famous Barrel Roll

Mon Jan 12, 2015 7:07 pm

Quoting 7BOEING7 (Reply 28):
Quoting 7BOEING7 (Reply 22):
Some airlines select the optional of 40 degrees.
Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 27):
I've worked as a 777 Instructor and Avionics Configurator and I've never heard of an option for the BAP threshold. I didn't even think the PFCs could be changed. I can definitely tell you that it's not in the 777 Option Catalog nor anything discussed with the customers.
Quoting 7BOEING7 (Reply 22):
Or the optional 40, 45, and 50.
Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 27):
Same comment. In addition to the above, I've also worked extensively with EGPWS. Again, same comment. I've never heard of an option for 40,45,50 and it's not in the 777 option catalog nor anything discussed with the customers.

Maybe you ought to do a little more research, we delivered several 777's with those "optional" settings -- I admit I was shocked the first time I went to 35 degrees and nothing happened. I believe one of the customers was Cathay Pacific and it may have related to the different buffet margins FAA (1.2g) or CAA/JAA (1.3g). Up until I retired 3 years ago the 777 Production Acceptance Document had the 40 degree option listed for the BAP check. Things may have changed in the last 3 years.

I did do my research. I checked again the 777 Option Catalog to go along with my memory, although I've worked on this stuff for years.

We have never had either in the 777 Option Catalog. If they were done, they were custom options but I've never seen or heard of either.

The maneuver margin option referred to only affects the FMF. It does not affect the EGPWS bank angle callouts or the PFC envelope protections. Again, I double checked my memory.

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