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MrHMSH
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A319 Spoilerons?

Mon Jan 26, 2015 4:11 am

On a recent journey with easyJet (A319 G-EZFJ), I noticed that the ailerons became auxiliary spoilers when landing, but I'd never seen it before on an A32X of any sort. I know it's becoming fairly common on newer aircraft, e.g. on the A380 and 787, but have they been retrofitted (programmed?) into the A320 family as well? I didn't see them on the outward journey (A320 G-EZTB).

Cheers,
Martin

[Edited 2015-01-25 20:14:37]
 
Q
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RE: A319 Spoilerons?

Mon Jan 26, 2015 4:17 am

I saw the picture or youtube few of A319 deployed. Maybe something is new update late 2014 to present while new Airbus 319 rolling out. Older 319 do not have them. I flew Delta 319 is old doesn't deployed up ailerons when landing roll down last September.


Q
 
DexSwart
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RE: A319 Spoilerons?

Mon Jan 26, 2015 4:20 am

SA's A346 have "spoilerons" if I remember correctly. They're kinda rare, always made me thought that not even spoilers were put onto the wing to increase enough drag haha.
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TWA772LR
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RE: A319 Spoilerons?

Mon Jan 26, 2015 4:21 am

Kinda OT, I think the 737NGs have them too.
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larshjort
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RE: A319 Spoilerons?

Mon Jan 26, 2015 4:34 am

I don't know what the term is for the aileron being raised during landing is, but spoilerons are spoilers being used to assist or replace the ailerons.

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RE: A319 Spoilerons?

Mon Jan 26, 2015 10:46 am

Quoting TWA772LR (Reply 3):

Uh, negative, ghostwriter. The 737 has about the simplest ailerons of any airliner currently flying. No monkey business during landing.
 
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flyingturtle
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RE: A319 Spoilerons?

Mon Jan 26, 2015 12:40 pm

Speaking of spoilerons... are there already planes that use the ailerons as additional flaps?


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zeke
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RE: A319 Spoilerons?

Mon Jan 26, 2015 12:48 pm

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 6):

All of the fbw Airbus.
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jumpseat
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RE: A319 Spoilerons?

Mon Jan 26, 2015 1:58 pm

Interesting, can't say I have ever noticed it!

Quoting Q (Reply 1):

The aircraft that OP was referring to is an A319 that was built in 2009, so it's something that doesn't apply to very recent A319s. That's all I know though!
 
AF1624
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RE: A319 Spoilerons?

Mon Jan 26, 2015 2:37 pm

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 6):
Speaking of spoilerons... are there already planes that use the ailerons as additional flaps?

All of the Fly-by-wire airbuses have this feature - it's an Aileron "droop". On A320 series the ailerons droop when Flaps 2 are selected (and any selection above). Not sure about the other ones but I would imagine it would be the same logic.

I also know the B777 has aileron-intrados droop as well - amongst many others I believe.

I have never seen ailerons used as spoilers on commercial aircraft before though. OP, are you sure that's what you saw and that the pilot was not just rolling into the wind in a crosswind landing?
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MrHMSH
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RE: A319 Spoilerons?

Mon Jan 26, 2015 3:38 pm

Quoting AF1624 (Reply 9):
I have never seen ailerons used as spoilers on commercial aircraft before though. OP, are you sure that's what you saw and that the pilot was not just rolling into the wind in a crosswind landing?

That's not an impossibility, but I know that the 787, A380 and A340-600 have spoilerons.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPKgISKK0Sg

This is the spolieron action I'm referring to.


For some reference, here is A319 G-EZGK in December of 2013:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KMU1TaOUKZI


And here is an A380:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lkx4BcCfkmI
 
AF1624
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RE: A319 Spoilerons?

Mon Jan 26, 2015 4:07 pm

Quoting MrHMSH (Reply 10):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPKgISKK0Sg

This is the spolieron action I'm referring to.

From that video it definitely looks like it is indeed an aileron used as a spoiler (since extension and retraction look pretty synchronised). Impressive as I'd never seen that before on any A320 series aircraft so it must be new! Very cool bit of kit.

Quoting MrHMSH (Reply 10):
And here is an A380:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lkx4BcCfkmI

Yup, same observation there. Really cool stuff.

What's even cooler with this is that it probably doesn't involve hardware change at all, since the aileron seems to deploy at a normal angle (what would be a full aileron deflection). Looks like a presumably easy retrofit with an upgraded code.

Great find!
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MrHMSH
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RE: A319 Spoilerons?

Mon Jan 26, 2015 4:18 pm

Quoting AF1624 (Reply 11):
What's even cooler with this is that it probably doesn't involve hardware change at all, since the aileron seems to deploy at a normal angle (what would be a full aileron deflection). Looks like a presumably easy retrofit with an upgraded code.

I imagine that it is simply some coding, but it was just weird to see it on a 5 year old A319, but not a 5 year old A320. Maybe in a few years time all easyJet aircraft will have it.

As a side note, I just found another video with the spolierons, I had not noticed it before, but it's A320 G-EZWJ, one of the newer ones.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ee7AwUehzJ4

[Edited 2015-01-26 08:29:27]
 
AIRWALK
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RE: A319 Spoilerons?

Mon Jan 26, 2015 4:50 pm

Quoting MrHMSH (Reply 12):
As a side note, I just found another video with the spolierons, I had not noticed it before, but it's A320 G-EZWJ, one of the newer ones.

That's not a spoileron. A spoileron is a spoiler used to achieve the effect of a aileron (roll). Basically they are deployed asymmetrically dumping lift on one wing to cause it to sink, achieving a roll in that direction similar to an aileron deflected upwards.
I'm sure this thread will take off soon
 
ArmitageShanks
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RE: A319 Spoilerons?

Mon Jan 26, 2015 5:42 pm

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 6):

Speaking of spoilerons... are there already planes that use the ailerons as additional flaps?

I believe it was an option on the MD-11 as well.
 
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MrHMSH
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RE: A319 Spoilerons?

Mon Jan 26, 2015 6:15 pm

Quoting AIRWALK (Reply 13):
That's not a spoileron. A spoileron is a spoiler used to achieve the effect of a aileron (roll). Basically they are deployed asymmetrically dumping lift on one wing to cause it to sink, achieving a roll in that direction similar to an aileron deflected upwards.

I take your point, what I should really have said is that the aileron is used as an auxiliary spoiler, something I noticed in that video and the one I linked above, but hadn't seen until then.
 
RetiredWeasel
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RE: A319 Spoilerons?

Mon Jan 26, 2015 7:29 pm

Quoting MrHMSH (Reply 15):
take your point, what I should really have said is that the aileron is used as an auxiliary spoiler

Being an old Boeing guy, I was kinda confused by this whole discussion until a watched a couple of the videos. Boeing (in my time) didn't use the term 'spoilerons'. They used ailerons and spoilers where the spoilers augmented the ailerons for roll control during flight. Most of the spoilers also did double duty in flight as speed brakes and on landing roll out as ground spoilers.

I think I see from your discussions and the videos that you are referring to the ailerons acting as spoilers only during landing rollout and that BOTH would DEFLECT UP in this case. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Also during landing roll out, it seems to me --in this case--that you loose the capability of keeping one aileron slightly down (and a little tipping effect) while landing in a strong quarterly headwind on the other side.

[Edited 2015-01-26 12:07:16]
 
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mighluss
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RE: A319 Spoilerons?

Mon Jan 26, 2015 7:41 pm

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 6):

Speaking of spoilerons... are there already planes that use the ailerons as additional flaps?

Just going a little bit further...

I have noticed that in 77W take off, inboard ailerons act as flaps, but when engine spools up they return to its neutral position (as blown by the engine?), but as the aircraft gets more speed they drop again to the "flap" position:

http://youtu.be/9aHuT9xIDk4 (min 2:10)

(Thanks to PHX787 trip report)

Is there any reason to it? or ailerons are just blown up, and as they regain hydraulics go down again?
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Tristarsteve
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RE: A319 Spoilerons?

Mon Jan 26, 2015 7:46 pm

Looking in our manuals, we have A32x from nbr 1014 up to 6290 of all types.
The first aircraft with ailerons acting as ground spoilers was nbr 2305 which was an A321, and all our A321 have this.
The first A320 to be so fitted was 6091 which was delivered last summer.
So it looks as if Airbus have taken an A321 design feature and fitted it to the A319/320.

Quoting mighluss (Reply 17):
I have noticed that in 77W take off, inboard ailerons act as flaps, but when engine spools up they return to its neutral position (as blown by the engine?), but as the aircraft gets more speed they drop again to the "flap" position:

Yes increasing thrust lever for take off disengages the control to these flaperons allowing them to float in the engine exhaust. Then, when they are needed again the control is reintroduced and they go back down.
 
AIRWALK
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RE: A319 Spoilerons?

Mon Jan 26, 2015 8:01 pm

Quoting Tristarsteve (Reply 18):
Looking in our manuals, we have A32x from nbr 1014 up to 6290 of all types.
The first aircraft with ailerons acting as ground spoilers was nbr 2305 which was an A321, and all our A321 have this.
The first A320 to be so fitted was 6091 which was delivered last summer.
So it looks as if Airbus have taken an A321 design feature and fitted it to the A319/320.

Do you know how this would work in a cross wind situation in regards to into-wind wing lift? Would deflection be slightly reduced?
I'm sure this thread will take off soon
 
Tristarsteve
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RE: A319 Spoilerons?

Mon Jan 26, 2015 9:40 pm

Ailerons and spoilers which are dual function roll/spoiler, the roll control has priority. If there is insufficient deflection available, then the surface on the other wing retracts.
Its all done with computors, and the actual programming is only revealed by Airbus in general statements.
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hivue
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RE: A319 Spoilerons?

Mon Jan 26, 2015 10:16 pm

Quoting RetiredWeasel (Reply 16):
Also during landing roll out, it seems to me --in this case--that you loose the capability of keeping one aileron slightly down (and a little tipping effect) while landing in a strong quarterly headwind on the other side.

I would think that you could program the FBW to accomplish the effect while using the ailerons as auxiliary ground spoilers.
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AIRWALK
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RE: A319 Spoilerons?

Mon Jan 26, 2015 10:33 pm

Quoting Tristarsteve (Reply 20):
Ailerons and spoilers which are dual function roll/spoiler, the roll control has priority. If there is insufficient deflection available, then the surface on the other wing retracts.

Thank you.

Quoting hivue (Reply 21):
I would think that you could program the FBW to accomplish the effect while using the ailerons as auxiliary ground spoilers.

Tristarsteve answered this, the roll function of the aileron in this case takes priority over the spoiler function if actuated
I'm sure this thread will take off soon
 
AF1624
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RE: A319 Spoilerons?

Mon Jan 26, 2015 10:50 pm

Quoting AIRWALK (Reply 22):

Tristarsteve answered this, the roll function of the aileron in this case takes priority over the spoiler function if actuated

Indeed. The roll control will take priority over anything in most airliners, even speedbrakes/spoilers (whatever you want to call them).

In a situation where the speedbrakes/spoilers are extended, if there is a significant stick or yoke deflection to one side, opposite side spoilers/speedbrakes will retract.
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strfyr51
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RE: A319 Spoilerons?

Tue Jan 27, 2015 1:08 am

it's Programmed via the ELAC's (Elevator -Aileron computers) the same thing that caused the load alleviation system to be removed.
 
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Jetlagged
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RE: A319 Spoilerons?

Tue Jan 27, 2015 1:33 am

Quoting AF1624 (Reply 23):
In a situation where the speedbrakes/spoilers are extended, if there is a significant stick or yoke deflection to one side, opposite side spoilers/speedbrakes will retract.

Actually the roll input is summed with the speedbrake input, even in non FBW planes (through a mixer unit). For example, with speedbrake extended, a left wheel input will cause the spoilers on the right wing to decrease deflection and the spoilers on the left wing to increase deflection. the greater the wheel input the more the differential deflection up to fully extended and fully retracted.

If the spoilers on the right wing simply retracted the effect would be very sudden and non-linear.

Spoileron is IIRC primarily Boeing terminology, beginning with the 777. The 777 introduced spoiler functionality to the ailerons, hence the new term. I'm not sure Airbus use the term, at least they didn't use to. The wing spoilers on a Boeing are simply called spoilers. They have multiple functions but they are still spoilers, not spoilerons.
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AF1624
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RE: A319 Spoilerons?

Tue Jan 27, 2015 6:33 am

Quoting Jetlagged (Reply 25):

Indeed, it is gradual - thanks for clarifying since my post makes it seem like going from an extreme to another.
Cheers
 
AIRWALK
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RE: A319 Spoilerons?

Tue Jan 27, 2015 7:57 pm

Quoting Jetlagged (Reply 25):
Spoileron is IIRC primarily Boeing terminology, beginning with the 777. The 777 introduced spoiler functionality to the ailerons, hence the new term. I'm not sure Airbus use the term, at least they didn't use to. The wing spoilers on a Boeing are simply called spoilers. They have multiple functions but they are still spoilers, not spoilerons.

The term spoileron probably has a loose definition, but the actual term spoileron refers to a spoiler which doubles up as an aileron or roll control surface, not as an aileron that doubles up as a spoiler. Similar to how the flap function of an aileron is simply termed aileron droop and not flaperon (on an aircraft that has both independent flaps and ailerons)

The term itself exists because some aircraft like particular models of the Stratofortress have no ailerons. The spoilers are combined spoiler/aileron which gives spoileron like the flap/aileron flaperon. It is true however that on aircraft with individual spoilers, ailerons and flaps each are termed spoiler, aileron and flap respectively, regardless of what dual or secondary functions they have.
I'm sure this thread will take off soon
 
dynamicsguy
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RE: A319 Spoilerons?

Wed Jan 28, 2015 8:56 am

Quoting Jetlagged (Reply 25):
Spoileron is IIRC primarily Boeing terminology, beginning with the 777. The 777 introduced spoiler functionality to the ailerons, hence the new term.

Really? We designed and build the 787 flaps, flaperon and ailerons and I've never, ever heard that term in nearly 8 years working as an engineer on the program.
 
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Jetlagged
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RE: A319 Spoilerons?

Mon Feb 02, 2015 12:52 am

Quoting dynamicsguy (Reply 28):
Really? We designed and build the 787 flaps, flaperon and ailerons and I've never, ever heard that term in nearly 8 years working as an engineer on the program.

Doh.    You're absolutely right of course. Flaperon was the 777 terminology I was thinking of. Sorry for the confusion.

I'm not a fan of awkward portmanteau terms like flaperon, spoileron, taileron, ailevator, etc. Elevon is an exception though.
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