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TheRedBaron
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Will The A321NEO LR Be Considered A "heavy"

Tue Feb 03, 2015 6:15 am

A geniune question to those in the "know".

Seeing that the A321Neo LR approaches the weight of the old 752, will the 321 version will be considered "heavy" for wake and spacing purposes on approach?

Thanks in advance!

Best Regards

TRB
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zeke
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RE: Will The A321NEO LR Be Considered A "heavy"

Tue Feb 03, 2015 9:01 am

Doubt it, well below the maximum.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
AIRWALK
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RE: Will The A321NEO LR Be Considered A "heavy"

Tue Feb 03, 2015 10:20 am

No, it will be in the Medium Category.

It has a proposed max MTOW of approximately 97 tons. The ICAO WTC gives Heavy above 136000kgs and Medium between 7000kgs and 136000kgs.
I'm sure this thread will take off soon
 
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TheRedBaron
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RE: Will The A321NEO LR Be Considered A "heavy"

Tue Feb 03, 2015 2:56 pm

Thanks !!!

See ing a lot of hot and high operations in Mexico I wondered if the Heavy denomination would impose some limitations!

TRB
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strfyr51
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RE: Will The A321NEO LR Be Considered A "heavy"

Tue Feb 03, 2015 10:49 pm

the Heavy designation is to denote climb performance to ATC
 
erzr2
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RE: Will The A321NEO LR Be Considered A "heavy"

Tue Feb 03, 2015 11:22 pm

Quoting strfyr51 (Reply 4):

Much moreso for wake turbulence separation requirements. Required separation increases dramatically particularly for departures in the US.
 
Mir
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RE: Will The A321NEO LR Be Considered A "heavy"

Wed Feb 04, 2015 3:58 am

Quoting strfyr51 (Reply 4):
the Heavy designation is to denote climb performance to ATC

No, it's for wake turbulence separation. Climb performance varies greatly from aircraft type to aircraft type even among very large aircraft, and then will vary further by specific aircraft weight.

-Mir
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Whiteguy
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RE: Will The A321NEO LR Be Considered A "heavy"

Wed Feb 04, 2015 6:43 am

Quoting TheRedBaron (Thread starter):
Seeing that the A321Neo LR approaches the weight of the old 752, will the 321 version will be considered "heavy" for wake and spacing purposes on approach?

The B757 wasn't designated a "heavy" because of it's weight, it was for separation due to strong wake vortices that it created.
 
Max Q
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RE: Will The A321NEO LR Be Considered A "heavy"

Wed Feb 04, 2015 7:37 am

It's a lot lighter than the high gross weight 757's.
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.


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XFSUgimpLB41X
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RE: Will The A321NEO LR Be Considered A "heavy"

Thu Feb 05, 2015 1:34 am

The 321NEO-LR will be well below 255,000 lbs.... not a heavy!  
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SPREE34
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RE: Will The A321NEO LR Be Considered A "heavy"

Thu Feb 05, 2015 2:03 am

Quoting strfyr51 (Reply 4):
the Heavy designation is to denote climb performance to ATC

Negative. Irrelevant to climb performance.

Quoting Mir (Reply 6):
No, it's for wake turbulence separation. Climb performance varies greatly from aircraft type to aircraft type even among very large aircraft, and then will vary further by specific aircraft weight.

This ^^^^^^^ right here is the answer.
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Max Q
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RE: Will The A321NEO LR Be Considered A "heavy"

Thu Feb 05, 2015 5:02 am

Quoting XFSUgimpLB41X (Reply 9):
The 321NEO-LR will be well below 255,000 lbs.... not a heavy!

That's not the delineation anyway.
300,000 pounds and above is a heavy.



The 757 just had special consideration due to its vortex characteristics.
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.


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OceanATC
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RE: Will The A321NEO LR Be Considered A "heavy"

Thu Feb 05, 2015 8:02 am

Interesting point is that the 757 is classed as a medium with respect to preceding aircraft and as we all know, a heavy for followers. At least that's the case in Australian airspace.

[Edited 2015-02-05 00:03:27]
 
LONGisland89
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RE: Will The A321NEO LR Be Considered A "heavy"

Thu Feb 05, 2015 1:10 pm

A lot of people say the 757 is "treated as a heavy" when, in actuality, it's in its own special category. In the US we have super, heavy, 757, large and small. Depending on the scenario with the preceding/trailing aircraft, a heavy and a 757 have different required separation.
 
XFSUgimpLB41X
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RE: Will The A321NEO LR Be Considered A "heavy"

Thu Feb 05, 2015 8:11 pm

Quoting Max Q (Reply 11):
That's not the delineation anyway.
300,000 pounds and above is a heavy.



The 757 just had special consideration due to its vortex characteristics.

You're exactly right! I had forgotten about the change from 255 to 300 back in 08 or so to align with ICAO.

Regardless, the 321NEO-LR won't be anywhere close to being a heavy.  
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OceanATC
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RE: Will The A321NEO LR Be Considered A "heavy"

Fri Feb 06, 2015 2:35 am

Quoting LONGisland89 (Reply 13):
A lot of people say the 757 is "treated as a heavy" when, in actuality, it's in its own special category. In the US we have super, heavy, 757, large and small. Depending on the scenario with the preceding/trailing aircraft, a heavy and a 757 have different required separation.

Yes that's different to us over here in Aus, we don't have a special category for the infrequent 757. From our ATS manual:
"10.6.1.1.1 B757, H47 and H53 Due to the wake turbulence characteristics of the B757, H47 and H53, classify these aircraft as Heavy aircraft if leading and as Medium aircraft if following."
 
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ptrjong
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RE: Will The A321NEO LR Be Considered A "heavy"

Fri Feb 06, 2015 7:45 am

Quoting OceanATC (Reply 15):

What on earth are H47 and H53?
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Legs
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RE: Will The A321NEO LR Be Considered A "heavy"

Fri Feb 06, 2015 8:30 am

What is unique to the 757 that it generates such disproportionately large wake vortices?
 
OceanATC
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RE: Will The A321NEO LR Be Considered A "heavy"

Fri Feb 06, 2015 1:06 pm

Quoting ptrjong (Reply 16):

Chinook and super stallion choppers. Slim chance of encountering those.
 
Max Q
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RE: Will The A321NEO LR Be Considered A "heavy"

Sat Feb 07, 2015 5:39 am

Quoting legs (Reply 17):
What is unique to the 757 that it generates such disproportionately large wake vortices?

Good question and I can't really answer it as it's not logical that an aircraft of moderate weight with a low wing loading should produce such powerful vortices, it just does !
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.


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zeke
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RE: Will The A321NEO LR Be Considered A "heavy"

Sat Feb 07, 2015 11:18 am

Quoting legs (Reply 17):

What is unique to the 757 that it generates such disproportionately large wake vortices?

I believe it is the rather unique configuration of the trailing edge double slotted flaps which extend outboard so far. They have been measured to have a higher core vortex speed, which influences the strength of the far field wake vortex.


In the right atmospheric conditions, you can see the strong vortex starting from the outboard edge of the flaps.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
Max Q
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RE: Will The A321NEO LR Be Considered A "heavy"

Sun Feb 08, 2015 5:15 am

Quoting zeke (Reply 20):
I believe it is the rather unique configuration of the trailing edge double slotted flaps which extend outboard so far. They have been measured to have a higher core vortex speed, which influences the strength of the far field wake vortex.

Its important to note that this is just a personal opinion, there is no scientific proof of this 'theory'.



Zeke has no experience actually flying the 757.
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.


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zeke
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RE: Will The A321NEO LR Be Considered A "heavy"

Sun Feb 08, 2015 5:31 am

Quoting Max Q (Reply 21):

The scientific data comes from NATS which has been doing continuous LADIR measurements of the wake vortices since 2008 of all aircraft arriving into LHR as part of their time based separation standards which are about to adopted.

They have published their results for peer review in a number of scientific and industry forums, they have made specific reference to the 757 core strength in this publication.

http://www.nats.aero/wp-content/uplo...TBS-Aeronautical-Info-Circular.pdf

You don't have to have experience flying a 757 to be able to read and keep abreast of industry research and new standards.
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SPREE34
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RE: Will The A321NEO LR Be Considered A "heavy"

Sun Feb 08, 2015 10:25 pm

Quoting zeke (Reply 22):
The scientific data comes from NATS

     

Similar data can be found in FAA documents, as well as references in a couple of NTSB reports. One that comes to mind, was a Citation in trail of a 757 that was rendered uncontrollable/unrecoverable and crashed. That incident led to the increaed spacing behind 757s.
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wilco737
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RE: Will The A321NEO LR Be Considered A "heavy"

Wed Feb 11, 2015 11:14 am

Guys,

this thread is about the A321NEO and not why and if the 757 is considered a heavy.

If you want to discuss the 757, open another thread.

Sure, a comparison is fine, but here please stick to the A321NEO.

thanks.

wilco737
  

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