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TWA772LR
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Pilot Requirements For Foreign Airlines

Sun Mar 01, 2015 2:22 am

Since the 1500 hour rule is in full effect, and I have a whopping 0 hours, I figure I may have to start my future pilot career abroad.

So, is there a way to find out the pilot requirements (or cadet program requirements) for foreign airlines. I'm not talking about BA, EK, NH or the like (except for cadet programs), I'm thinking more of Bahamasair, the Caribbean airlines, Tropic Air and Maya Island Air of Belize, etc...

Is there a website or database where I can find these requirements? I've looked on various airlines websites but to no avail.

If this is in the wrong forum, please move it. I just ask that you PM me to what forum you moved it to.
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IADCA
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RE: Pilot Requirements For Foreign Airlines

Sun Mar 01, 2015 2:30 am

Quoting TWA772LR (Thread starter):
Is there a website or database where I can find these requirements? I've looked on various airlines websites but to no avail.

A.net is not the best forum for the careers-type questions. There's an approximate competitor website whose acronym is the same as the term for a dried plum (but with the first letter of the fruit name doubled to find the website) that is much better for these sorts of things. Good luck.
 
Flyer732
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RE: Pilot Requirements For Foreign Airlines

Sun Mar 01, 2015 3:24 am

Tropic and Maya don't hire foreigners any longer. You can fly seasonal stuff here in the US around the Grand Canyon, or go to southern Africa and fly lodge transfers for a few years, I flew down there for 2 years and had more fun than I thought I ever could.
 
FlightShadow
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RE: Pilot Requirements For Foreign Airlines

Sun Mar 01, 2015 3:29 am

Quoting IADCA (Reply 1):
whose acronym is the same as the term for a dried plum (but with the first letter of the fruit name doubled to find the website) that is much better for these sorts of things. Good luck.

That's the most brilliant thing I've seen today. Respect sir, respect.
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Starlionblue
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RE: Pilot Requirements For Foreign Airlines

Sun Mar 01, 2015 3:37 am

There really isn't one website that reliably collects everything. The best is to check individual airline sites since they are more up to date. More work of course. Also agreed with IADCA that "the other website" has better info than here. Unfortunately said info can be hard to find amongst all the embittered ranting.

Quoting TWA772LR (Thread starter):

Since the 1500 hour rule is in full effect, and I have a whopping 0 hours, I figure I may have to start my future pilot career abroad.

IMHO a very sensible decision.

I'd say that realistically you will need CPL Multi IR as a bare minimum before someone pays you to fly. The cheapest place to get those licenses is probably the US. In Florida a good school (beware the many dodgy ones) will get you from zero to CPL Multi IR for around $60000 (including housing) in less than 4 months, assuming you work on it 7 days a week. You will have to push yourself hard to make it in that timeframe. No matter how good the school, they won't complain if they take more of your money, so make sure you stay on top of progress and get yourself up every morning ready to get stuff done.

If you want to take it at a slower pace it will probably cost more since you won't be full immersion. One option is to do PPL in one go, then build hours at your own pace until you have enough to start on your IR, do that in one go, then the same for CPL. I'd say to then do the Multi add-on to CPL with the CPL still fresh since it only takes a few days anyway. Concentrating training in solid chunks gives much more bang for the buck that flying once or twice a week.

Once you have that CPL Multi IR, you can banner tow or something like that to stay fresh while you look for jobs. Or you might want to get your instructor rating and get paid between piddling and squat to instruct. After a few years you'll have quite a few more hours but sadly none of that oh so precious multi-crew turbine time.

Quoting TWA772LR (Thread starter):
except for cadet programs

As an example of cadet programmes, for CX you need CPL Multi IR with 200 hours (unless you have HK Right of Abode in which case there is a programme with no aviation experience requirement).
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
Tristarsteve
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RE: Pilot Requirements For Foreign Airlines

Sun Mar 01, 2015 2:29 pm

There was a series of films on TV last year in Sweden about an airline called Susi Air in Indonesia.
They take pilots with a fresh CPL and 200 hrs and train them from scratch to fly their Caravans.
It seemed that they were recruiting all the time as they had loads of aircraft, and pilots were only there for the hours.
Look them up on Wikipedia
 
BravoOne
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RE: Pilot Requirements For Foreign Airlines

Sun Mar 01, 2015 2:41 pm

Have you thought about joining a military flight program like the USAF Reserves or ANG. Best deal out there by far and very competitive. Last month there were almost 100 slots unfilled.
 
BravoOne
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RE: Pilot Requirements For Foreign Airlines

Sun Mar 01, 2015 4:23 pm

One other option. Boeing has joined up with Sierra Academy in Calif along with a number of other college level organizations both here in the US and abroad to deliver this kind of training. Boeing's involvement along with Jeppesen is commonly referred to as the "Jet Bridge". I believe a pilot can enter the program at various levels of previous experience.
 
B777LRF
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RE: Pilot Requirements For Foreign Airlines

Sun Mar 01, 2015 5:30 pm

Quoting Tristarsteve (Reply 5):
There was a series of films on TV last year in Sweden about an airline called Susi Air in Indonesia.
They take pilots with a fresh CPL and 200 hrs and train them from scratch to fly their Caravans.
It seemed that they were recruiting all the time as they had loads of aircraft, and pilots were only there for the hours.
Look them up on Wikipedia

You forgot to mention the bit about Susi losing, on average, one aircraft a year. Which is not really surprising, given that they spend most of their time shooting visuals into places such as this in Papua:



The flying must be off-the-scale thrilling, and so are the risks. Worth considering I suppose, but personally I'd rather look at finding a way to hoodwink my way into EASA land, where the starting requirements are a frozen ATPL and 250ish hours. A gullible lass of pleasing appearance perhaps?
Signature. You just read one.
 
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Vio
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RE: Pilot Requirements For Foreign Airlines

Sun Mar 01, 2015 7:43 pm

Quoting TWA772LR (Thread starter):
Since the 1500 hour rule is in full effect, and I have a whopping 0 hours, I figure I may have to start my future pilot career abroad.

So, is there a way to find out the pilot requirements (or cadet program requirements) for foreign airlines. I'm not talking about BA, EK, NH or the like (except for cadet programs), I'm thinking more of Bahamasair, the Caribbean airlines, Tropic Air and Maya Island Air of Belize, etc...

Great question. It's good to ask yourself these things before you commit yourself to $60,000 and a career that has a lot of ups and downs.

At one point I was also thinking for going to the Caribbean to fly because I couldn't stand the cold in the North, but I wasn't able to find anything useful. A lot of the companies there prefer hiring local guys since they're there for the long run. A guy like you on the other hand will bugger off to Delta or United at the first chance he gets, so why would they invest in you? As a new pilot you bring nothing to the table. (Don't take it the wrong way, it's just the way it is with 200 hr guys). We were all there at one point.

You can start looking at Pilot Career Center and it has a pretty good database of companies all over the world. (Just Google It). You can search for companies / jobs by region. The hardest part by far is getting the appropriate work visa for that specific place. Some countries require you have an FAA license, some require that you hold something else (like EASA / JAA).

Hope that helps. If you really want me to give you good advice, here it is:

MAKE FRIENDS IN THE INDUSTRY. THEY WILL BE THE ONES GIVING YOU TIPS AND HELP YOU LAND THAT FIRST JOB.

Of course, don't try to focus too too much on that at this point. Make sure you finish your school first before you start asking about jobs and career opportunities. A general "know how" is enough.

Cheers and good luck

Vio
Superior decisions reduce the need for superior skills.
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: Pilot Requirements For Foreign Airlines

Mon Mar 02, 2015 12:30 pm

Quoting B777LRF (Reply 8):

Quoting Tristarsteve (Reply 5):
There was a series of films on TV last year in Sweden about an airline called Susi Air in Indonesia.
They take pilots with a fresh CPL and 200 hrs and train them from scratch to fly their Caravans.
It seemed that they were recruiting all the time as they had loads of aircraft, and pilots were only there for the hours.
Look them up on Wikipedia

You forgot to mention the bit about Susi losing, on average, one aircraft a year. Which is not really surprising, given that they spend most of their time shooting visuals into places such as this in Papua:

Yes and no. While the show "Worst Place to be a Pilot" focused on Susi Air's operations in Papua, the airline operates throughout Indonesia. Most ops are nowhere near as risky as the single pilot Porter flights to mountain airfields in Papua. Typical Susi Air flights are two-crew Caravan to relatively more "civilized" airports.

Not saying it is as safe as being a pilot for British Airways, but Susi air is definitely not all "Air America" style stuff.

Quoting vio (Reply 9):
MAKE FRIENDS IN THE INDUSTRY. THEY WILL BE THE ONES GIVING YOU TIPS AND HELP YOU LAND THAT FIRST JOB.

Quite. And conversely never make enemies in aviation.

Quoting vio (Reply 9):
Of course, don't try to focus too too much on that at this point. Make sure you finish your school first before you start asking about jobs and career opportunities. A general "know how" is enough.

Agreed.

However do keep the goal in mind. Try not to make that goal too definite ("I want to work for airline X on airplane Y") but at least keep in mind the goal of becoming an airline pilot.

A guy told me that being a pilot means jumping through hoops from the very first lesson to the end of your career. For everyone from student to chief pilot there's always a check-ride, line check or exam looming. Get into the mindset of figuring out the next hoop and working on how to jump through it. If you keep at it in the end chances are good you'll be given an opportunity at some point.

Quoting B777LRF (Reply 8):
personally I'd rather look at finding a way to hoodwink my way into EASA land, where the starting requirements are a frozen ATPL and 250ish hours. A gullible lass of pleasing appearance perhaps?

:D

Either way, I would highly recommend doing the EASA ATPL exams after you have your CPL. (You'd get what is known as a "Frozen ATPL".) Passes in the EASA ATPL exams are viewed favourably by employers around the world, and they're a massive leg up once you have to convert your US license to a foreign one.


Finally, I'd say look abroad for jobs and be ready to spend your career abroad. Or at least think of whether you want to do that. Certainly there are jobs in North America but there are more and better paid ones in East Asia and the Middle East.

[Edited 2015-03-02 04:35:46]
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
BravoOne
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RE: Pilot Requirements For Foreign Airlines

Mon Mar 02, 2015 1:08 pm

Quoting vio (Reply 9):
Finally, I'd say look abroad for jobs and be ready to spend your career abroad. Or at least think of whether you want to do that. Certainly there are jobs in North America but there are more and better paid ones in East Asia and the Middle East

Probably a temporary condition..at best and not without significant risk.
 
DiamondFlyer
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RE: Pilot Requirements For Foreign Airlines

Mon Mar 02, 2015 3:46 pm

Quoting TWA772LR (Thread starter):
Since the 1500 hour rule is in full effect, and I have a whopping 0 hours, I figure I may have to start my future pilot career abroad.

I think you vastly underestimate how much experience is required to go somewhere overseas and I think you also underestimate how many jobs there are in the US for a low time guy. Just get your commercial and CFI and go teach somewhere. You'll get to ATP minimums quick enough.

-DiamondFlyer
From my cold, dead hands
 
BravoOne
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RE: Pilot Requirements For Foreign Airlines

Mon Mar 02, 2015 3:52 pm

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 12):
I think you vastly underestimate how much experience is required to go somewhere overseas and I think you also underestimate how many jobs there are in the US for a low time guy. Just get your commercial and CFI and go teach somewhere. You'll get to ATP minimums quick enough.

This is Spot on and great advice 
 
mmo
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RE: Pilot Requirements For Foreign Airlines

Mon Mar 02, 2015 4:53 pm

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 12):
I think you vastly underestimate how much experience is required to go somewhere overseas and I think you also underestimate how many jobs there are in the US for a low time guy. Just get your commercial and CFI and go teach somewhere. You'll get to ATP minimums quick enough.

As someone who has been flying and employed by foreign carriers since the late 90's I'd like to voice my opinion in this matter.

First of all, I would think very, very long and hard about going to work as an expat pilot if you could not go as a Captain. Even then, think very long and hard. At the end of the day, you are an expendable resource. At the first sign of a downturn you will be the first group to take the hits. Is the pay good? It certainly is, but there is a lot more risk working as an expat than there is staying in the US at a carrier with a seniority number.

Secondly, as a F/O, with a few exceptions such as CX, you will not upgrade. The local pilots will get the upgrades and you will stay where you are. There are exceptions, for instance if you want to pay for your type rating, but generally speaking as an expat F/O you will stay in that seat.
Working as an expat F/O for a foreign airline can be very difficult. CRM, the cockpit mentality and cockpit culture can be very different and not in a good way. I have seen F/Os, both local and expats get abused both physically and verbally in the cockpit.
Generally speaking, you will work much harder at a foreign airline than you would for one in the US. Think about what impact that will have if you move your family with you.
Finally, if the options are furlough and unemployment, I'd jump to keep working, but think very long and very hard before you take the leap.
If we weren't all crazy we'd all go insane!
 
Flyer732
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RE: Pilot Requirements For Foreign Airlines

Mon Mar 02, 2015 6:58 pm

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 12):
I think you vastly underestimate how much experience is required to go somewhere overseas and I think you also underestimate how many jobs there are in the US for a low time guy. Just get your commercial and CFI and go teach somewhere. You'll get to ATP minimums quick enough.

Yes and no. I got hired overseas at 420 hours and learned more about flying than I ever did instructing. There are plenty of opportunities overseas that just require getting a little bit out of the norm and not flying circles around an airport for 1500 hours. Most people I talk to about flying in Southern Africa ask the same questions, did you live in a hut? Were there lions everywhere? Did you catch ebola? I simply laugh and say, I lived in a nice apartment, drove a nice car and spent nights in 5 star safari lodges where my passengers were spending thousands of dollars a night to be there. Was it all great? No. Would I do it again? In a second.
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: Pilot Requirements For Foreign Airlines

Mon Mar 02, 2015 8:53 pm

Quoting BravoOne (Reply 11):

Quoting vio (Reply 9):
Finally, I'd say look abroad for jobs and be ready to spend your career abroad. Or at least think of whether you want to do that. Certainly there are jobs in North America but there are more and better paid ones in East Asia and the Middle East

Probably a temporary condition..at best and not without significant risk.

It's been a termporary condition for a while now.  
Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 12):
I think you vastly underestimate how much experience is required to go somewhere overseas and I think you also underestimate how many jobs there are in the US for a low time guy. Just get your commercial and CFI and go teach somewhere. You'll get to ATP minimums quick enough.

It really depends where you end up. As mentioned CX takes 200 hour pilots but I suppose they are a bit of an exception. Having said that I do agree that instructing is a sensible progression and will keep you flying while opening up doors both domesitcally and abroad.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
BravoOne
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RE: Pilot Requirements For Foreign Airlines

Tue Mar 03, 2015 11:12 am

You can bet your last dollar that CX is not going have any Americans in their Cadet programs. I believe that it is limited to Chinese at the moment?
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: Pilot Requirements For Foreign Airlines

Tue Mar 03, 2015 12:33 pm

Quoting BravoOne (Reply 17):
You can bet your last dollar that CX is not going have any Americans in their Cadet programs. I believe that it is limited to Chinese at the moment?

I'll take that bet. 

CX started taking non-HK cadets again last year, with a minimum requirement of 250 hours with CPL ME IR.

[Edited 2015-03-03 04:49:10]

[Edited 2015-03-03 04:49:51]

[Edited 2015-03-03 04:50:04]
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
AIRWALK
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RE: Pilot Requirements For Foreign Airlines

Tue Mar 03, 2015 1:35 pm

Quoting BravoOne (Reply 17):
You can bet your last dollar that CX is not going have any Americans in their Cadet programs. I believe that it is limited to Chinese at the moment?

You just have to have a Hong Kong permanent ID card and right of adobe, doesn't matter where you are from.
I'm sure this thread will take off soon
 
Flyer732
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RE: Pilot Requirements For Foreign Airlines

Tue Mar 03, 2015 1:47 pm

Quoting AIRWALK (Reply 19):
You just have to have a Hong Kong permanent ID card and right of adobe, doesn't matter where you are from.

I have a South African friend with now HK ID card and right to work there who is in the program now. They've opened the doors again.
 
BravoOne
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RE: Pilot Requirements For Foreign Airlines

Tue Mar 03, 2015 1:48 pm

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 18):
I'll take that bet

Put your money where I can see it. Canadians...maybe. Americans are not welcomed into the cadet program. Pretty familiar with CX's training schemes.

More to the point as I believe you need a permanent resident HK ID card? Happy to corrected and I know a number of CX pilots who have joined in the last decade, most of whom have quit to come back to the US

[Edited 2015-03-03 06:05:16]
 
mmo
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RE: Pilot Requirements For Foreign Airlines

Tue Mar 03, 2015 2:16 pm

Quoting BravoOne (Reply 21):
Put your money where I can see it. Canadians...maybe. Americans are not welcomed into the cadet program. Pretty familiar with CX's training schemes.

The CX Cadet Program is limited to individuals who have the "right of abode" in Hong Kong.

There is also an "Advanced Entry Program" which is open to all. There are certain flight time requirements.

Source: http://www.cathaypacific.com/cx/en_H...areers/jobs-in-the-air/pilots.html
If we weren't all crazy we'd all go insane!
 
BravoOne
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RE: Pilot Requirements For Foreign Airlines

Tue Mar 03, 2015 2:25 pm

Okay, are there any Americans enrolled in this program?
 
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zeke
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RE: Pilot Requirements For Foreign Airlines

Tue Mar 03, 2015 2:56 pm

Quoting BravoOne (Reply 17):

You can bet your last dollar that CX is not going have any Americans in their Cadet programs. I believe that it is limited to Chinese at the moment?

You would be very wrong on that account http://youtu.be/LH8RU1bLLSo

Around the time the Brits handed back HKG to the Chinese there were a lot of HKG people they went to the US and Canada to setup a new life thinking the earth was flat and they would fall off the edge when handed back to China.

The offspring of these people are returning to HKG for work, unemployment rate is lower, many speak/read the local language, many have a HKID. For these people , it is the golden ticket to the Cathay Chocolate Factory, you have a very good chance of having all of your flight training and a guaranteed job.

Those who don't have that sort of luck, CX hires from 60+ countries from memory, with cpl, GA, regional, military, instructing, airline background.
“Don't be a show-off. Never be too proud to turn back. There are old pilots and bold pilots, but no old, bold pilots.” E. Hamilton Lee, 1949
 
BravoOne
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RE: Pilot Requirements For Foreign Airlines

Tue Mar 03, 2015 3:17 pm

Quoting zeke (Reply 24):
Around the time the Brits handed back HKG to the Chinese there were a lot of HKG people they went to the US and Canada to setup a new life thinking the earth was flat and they would fall off the edge when handed back to China.

The offspring of these people are returning to HKG for work, unemployment rate is lower, many speak/read the local language, many have a HKID. For these people , it is the golden ticket to the Cathay Chocolate Factory, you have a very good chance of having all of your flight training and a guaranteed job.

Those who don't have that sort of luck, CX hires from 60+ countries from memory, with cpl, GA, regional, military, instructing, airline background.








Thanks for that info. BTW, I was in HKG when they turned it back over to China so I'm not completely clueless. As I recall the CP at CX was Paddy Anderson back then.
 
BravoOne
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RE: Pilot Requirements For Foreign Airlines

Tue Mar 03, 2015 4:01 pm

A friend sent me this, Not sure if this sheds any more light on the issue or not:

Cathay won't consider you for the cadet program unless you have a HK permanent ID. You need to live in Hong Kong for seven years before you can get a permanent ID, so your only options are to join either an AE or TT course.
 
AIRWALK
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RE: Pilot Requirements For Foreign Airlines

Tue Mar 03, 2015 4:26 pm

Quoting BravoOne (Reply 26):
A friend sent me this, Not sure if this sheds any more light on the issue or not:

Cathay won't consider you for the cadet program unless you have a HK permanent ID. You need to live in Hong Kong for seven years before you can get a permanent ID, so your only options are to join either an AE or TT course.

There is no issue. It says that clearly on their entry requirements on their website:

Kindly note that only applicants who hold a Hong Kong permanent ID card are being considered for the Cadet Pilot Programme.

If this condition is satisfied you are eligible to apply. From then on CX will be looking to accept the best of the applicants based on their screening process regardless of where you were born.

This is the link: http://jobsatcathaypacific.com/cadetpilots/apply.php
I'm sure this thread will take off soon
 
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zeke
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RE: Pilot Requirements For Foreign Airlines

Tue Mar 03, 2015 4:32 pm

Quoting BravoOne (Reply 26):

HKID is required for the cadet program, this changed about 2 years ago not by CX, it was the HKG immigration. Their justification was if you were hiring unskilled (I.e people without a licence or experience) you will hire those with. HKID, i.e. the right to abode.

Americans with a HKID can apply for the cadet scheme.

Skilled Americans, I.e. those with a CPL., CX will consider them on merit for the advanced or transition, and will need to sponsor their employment visa as they will not have the right to abode.

The real issue Americans face is the US IRS taxes people on worldwide income, even if employed in HKG, which does not make it attractive.
“Don't be a show-off. Never be too proud to turn back. There are old pilots and bold pilots, but no old, bold pilots.” E. Hamilton Lee, 1949
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: Pilot Requirements For Foreign Airlines

Tue Mar 03, 2015 8:48 pm

Quoting BravoOne (Reply 26):
Cathay won't consider you for the cadet program unless you have a HK permanent ID. You need to live in Hong Kong for seven years before you can get a permanent ID, so your only options are to join either an AE or TT course.

I think we're disagreeing on nomenclature more than anything else. I would call all three programs (0-hour, AE and TT) "cadet programs" but some would only call the 0-hour program "cadet".

Anyway, while the 0-hour program is open only to HK Right of Abode holders, the AE and TT programs are open to all who satisfy the experience and license requirements.

Quoting BravoOne (Reply 23):
Okay, are there any Americans enrolled in this program?

There are Americans in the AE and TT programs.

Getting back to the initial point, if the OP wants to get his CPL ME IR he would be eligible to apply to CX with only 250 hours.

[Edited 2015-03-03 12:49:04]
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
BravoOne
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RE: Pilot Requirements For Foreign Airlines

Tue Mar 03, 2015 9:16 pm

Thanks for the clarification  
 
DiamondFlyer
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RE: Pilot Requirements For Foreign Airlines

Wed Mar 04, 2015 2:52 am

Quoting Flyer732 (Reply 15):
Yes and no. I got hired overseas at 420 hours and learned more about flying than I ever did instructing. There are plenty of opportunities overseas that just require getting a little bit out of the norm and not flying circles around an airport for 1500 hours. Most people I talk to about flying in Southern Africa ask the same questions, did you live in a hut? Were there lions everywhere? Did you catch ebola? I simply laugh and say, I lived in a nice apartment, drove a nice car and spent nights in 5 star safari lodges where my passengers were spending thousands of dollars a night to be there. Was it all great? No. Would I do it again? In a second.

But with all that hassle, did it get you to ATP minimums and quicker than instructing at one of the Asian pilot mills?

-DiamondFlyer
From my cold, dead hands
 
Flyer732
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RE: Pilot Requirements For Foreign Airlines

Wed Mar 04, 2015 4:44 am

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 31):
But with all that hassle, did it get you to ATP minimums and quicker than instructing at one of the Asian pilot mills?

About the same speed, maybe slightly longer. However the knowledge I gained from doing it was more than I ever got as an instructor, and my hands on flying ability is much better after having a planeload of paying passengers to please on every flight. On top of that, most strips we would fly into would sit somewhere between 3,000 and 5,500 ft MSL with temps on a normal day exceeding 90 degrees Fahrenheit, add into that the plane being planned at MTOW and a 6000 foot runway or shorter, sometimes with density altitudes close to 10,000 feet…not something you will ever encounter as an instructor.

Really for me it came down to the adventure, I wanted to do something that wasn't instructing even though I had my CFI/CFII/MEI and AGI, however that being said I did teach when I was in Namibia after validating my FAA CFI to an Namibian certificate. I left because I felt it was time to move on and progress my career.

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