How Do Short Range A/C Get To Hawaii?

29erUSA187 · Sun Mar 15, 2015 3:29 am

Hello all,
While looking at wikipedia for info about HA and YV fleets, and then a thought came to mind.

How the hell do 717's and CRJ200's get to Hawaii? Surely their range, even empty cannot be sufficient to get to Hawaii, and certainly they cannot be loaded in another A/C.

Are they shipped in pieces to Hawaii by ship? Are they fitted with Aux tanks for one flight? Can anyone shed some light on this?

-29er

32andBelow · Sun Mar 15, 2015 3:34 am

Temporary ferry tanks are installed and the planes just go ahead and fly. They have one this will aircraft as small as Cessna's. Also, the shortest distance to Hawaii would be down the Aleutians from CDB or ADK. and it would cut down on a lot of the headwinds.

[Edited 2015-03-14 20:35:15]

UA444 · Sun Mar 15, 2015 3:34 am

They are fitted with extra tanks in the cabin. There are pics of 717s with the tanks in the cabin.

tylersmithsjc · Sun Mar 15, 2015 3:35 am

It's a long flight especially for the smaller G/A planes. There was a Jetstream 41 flying from HNL to SJC that flew for something like 7 hours straight

N104UA · Sun Mar 15, 2015 3:35 am

Aux Tanks

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © AirNikon Collection-Pima Air and Space Museum

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © AirNikon Collection-Pima Air and Space Museum

flyDTW1992 · Sun Mar 15, 2015 3:38 am

I had a conversation with some long-time Shuttle America management pilots who flew E170s in Hawaii in '08-'09, they talked about a route up through Alaska and down the Aleutians, followed by additional island hopping (Midway Island, etc.) to reach the final destination. I don't remember too many specifics, but that was the gist of it.

29erUSA187 · Sun Mar 15, 2015 3:38 am

Quoting N104UA (Reply 4):

Wow thats impressive. That must add some extra weight!

32andBelow · Sun Mar 15, 2015 3:40 am

Quoting 29erUSA187 (Reply 6):
Wow thats impressive. That must add some extra weight!

Yes but remember the airplane is completely empty and some seats are even removed. I am sure they can get a one time exemption if needed to take off above max takeoff.

DFWflightpath · Sun Mar 15, 2015 3:47 am

How are those tanks connected to the aircraft's fuel system?

northwestEWR · Sun Mar 15, 2015 4:00 am

Quoting 32andBelow (Reply 7):

I have my doubts as to exemptions to takeoff above MTOW. The last thing I want to do before heading out over the pacific is overload the airplane and cause structural damage.

Lets look at a little math on the 717.
Operating Empty Weight: 67,500 lbs
Max fuel: ~24,900 lbs
MTOW: 110,000 lbs
OEW+Max fuel= 92,400 lbs

For reference: If you figure that each passenger weighs 180 lbs, that's 180x110 seats = 19,800 lbs

If all I did was fly without any passengers, I'd have 17,600 lbs until I reach MTOW.

MTOW-OEW-Normal fuel capacity=Aux fuel capacity

That almost doubles my fuel capacity!

[Edited 2015-03-14 21:01:20]

7BOEING7 · Sun Mar 15, 2015 4:22 am

Way back in the day Aloha would get their 732's to Hawaii using seat-less airplanes with bladder tanks in the main cabin. When the 733 came along depending on the winds you could make it to Hawaii from the bay area and even Seattle. On the first delivery to mainland China (1985) the wind information indicated we couldn't fly OAK to HNL but could make it from BFI -- wrong. About halfway across we were looking at a 30kt wind bust so we turned around and the next day headed for Cold Bay then HNL. Cold Bay had 40-50 kt crosswinds so we settled for King Salmon which could only fuel us over the wing -- that's a treat. The rest of the trip from HNL to ZPPP (via PMAJ/PGSN/ZGGG) was a piece of cake after that.

ZPPP-Kunming/PMAJ-Majaro/PGSN-Saipan/ZGGG-Guangzhou

Thenoflyzone · Sun Mar 15, 2015 4:32 am

If it weren't for the headwinds, the extra tanks wouldn't be required. With no payload and no extra tanks, the B717 has a ferry range of 2500 nm. SFO-OGG is 2032 nm.

Page 22 of the B717 airplane characteristics.

rwessel · Sun Mar 15, 2015 6:01 am

Quoting DFWflightpath (Reply 8):
How are those tanks connected to the aircraft's fuel system?

A few pumps, some hoses, and a few fittings added where the aux tanks can drain into the central tank, and from there to the right tank via the normal plumbing, and crossfeed back to the left. This show a lot of the setup:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=geVpPUFuOVg

Max Q · Sun Mar 15, 2015 6:49 am

Quoting northwestEWR (Reply 9):
I have my doubts as to exemptions to takeoff above MTOW. The last thing I want to do before heading out over the pacific is overload the airplane and cause structural damage.

Lets look at a little math on the 717.
Operating Empty Weight: 67,500 lbs
Max fuel: ~24,900 lbs
MTOW: 110,000 lbs
OEW+Max fuel= 92,400 lbs

For reference: If you figure that each passenger weighs 180 lbs, that's 180x110 seats = 19,800 lbs

If all I did was fly without any passengers, I'd have 17,600 lbs until I reach MTOW.

MTOW-OEW-Normal fuel capacity=Aux fuel capacity

That almost doubles my fuel capacity!

If you look at the auxiliary tanks in that B717 each one is marked 'capacity 250 gallons' giving a total of 1000 US Gallons.

Multiply that by 6.7 and you have an additional 6700 pounds of fuel, not that much extra really.

I'm guessing it would burn a bit less than the MD80 I flew and that extra would give you another, say 90 minutes fuel, enough to make it comfortably, especially considering the lower fuel burn on an Aircraft departing the west coast well below max take off weight.

AirGAbon · Sun Mar 15, 2015 1:49 pm

The same for Air Tahiti ATRs flying from TLS to PPT

Thenoflyzone · Sun Mar 15, 2015 1:54 pm

Quoting rwessel (Reply 12):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=geVpPUFuOVg

Always remove the "s" in 'https' when posting a link.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=geVpPUFuOVg

threepoint · Sun Mar 15, 2015 2:48 pm

Quoting N104UA (Reply 4):
Aux Tanks

Installing aux tanks is the obvious answer. What's less obvious is how they fit those tanks through the airplane doors.

BravoOne · Sun Mar 15, 2015 3:44 pm

Quoting rwessel (Reply 12):
A few pumps, some hoses, and a few fittings added where the aux tanks can drain into the central tank, and from there to the right tank via the normal plumbing, and crossfeed back to the left. This show a lot of the setup:

Kind of hard to tell whether those are fuel pumps or transfer valves. A lot of aux tank installations in the Boeings use differential pressure in lieu of pump pressure. Keeps it simpler and safer. The initial transfer would be into the center tank which is usually burned down first allowing for the addition of the aux fuel. The crew would want to be sure that the transfer was functioning before getting to far into the extended range portion of the flight. The wings would be burned out of last for structural reasons. Pretty typical of all Boeings. You would never see aux fuel being transferred into the wings.

superjeff · Sun Mar 15, 2015 3:53 pm

Quoting flyDTW1992 (Reply 5):

I had a conversation with some long-time Shuttle America management pilots who flew E170s in Hawaii in '08-'09, they talked about a route up through Alaska and down the Aleutians, followed by additional island hopping (Midway Island, etc.) to reach the final destination. I don't remember too many specifics, but that was the gist of it.

Actually, you could go through the Aleutians, but certainly not Midway Island - it is a considerably far distance WEST of Hawaii.

Most of the time, carriers put extra fuel tanks (as described above) in the plane and fly through SFO - it is the closest distance to the mainland. The number of fuel tanks is dependent on the type of airplane. I believe HA carried 6 on their 717 delivery flights, as opposed to about 10 to return the DC9 fleet to the mainland (due to the higher fuel-burn on the DC9's.

BravoOne · Sun Mar 15, 2015 4:02 pm

Quoting superjeff (Reply 18):
Actually, you could go through the Aleutians, but certainly not Midway Island - it is a considerably far distance WEST of Hawaii

Actually Midway has been used many times for this kind of light. Not sure where you would depart from in Alaska but depending on the weather and just what kind of airplane your in Adak would probably be the choice. Never done it my self.

[Edited 2015-03-15 09:30:37]

[Edited 2015-03-15 09:58:09]

chrcaremanav · Sun Mar 15, 2015 4:25 pm

Howdy! Wow! Thank You for those information, I was always curious How Airlines or Aircraft Manufacturer would sent Their Aircraft overseas, because watching a lot of Spotters Videos in Europe and Southern Europe and a bit beyond that point, I saw Sunwing flying to Palma De Mallorca and other Airports, Sunwing is Canadian and They are using 737-800. so impossible to fly those in England and Spain and the Other Countries in Europe, but I always thought They were sending Their Aircraft overseas with Vehicle Ships, I was wrong I guess, because I thought, maybe with the wings of the Aircraft it would not fit in those ships, maybe small Regional Jets(even then) but not bigger ones. Thank You very much You are All amazing and awesome to read and We get some Aviation Education every day from You. Have a nice day.

N104UA · Sun Mar 15, 2015 5:07 pm

Quoting chrcaremanav (Reply 20):
I saw Sunwing flying to Palma De Mallorca and other Airports, Sunwing is Canadian and They are using 737-800. so impossible to fly those in England and Spain and the Other Countries in Europe

Actually they usually deliver the 737s to Europe and the A31Xs to the USA via KEF, so only the RJs require extra tanks. Although, some aircraft have an extra center tank that would allow TATL travel.

5O is flying YHZ to ORY and DUB with 737s

[Edited 2015-03-15 10:08:29]

N104UA · Sun Mar 15, 2015 5:19 pm

Quoting threepoint (Reply 16):

Quoting N104UA (Reply 4):
Aux Tanks

Installing aux tanks is the obvious answer. What's less obvious is how they fit those tanks through the airplane doors.

Door 1L on a 717 is 34in, the tanks don't look to be much wider than that, so I am guessing that the tanks get in the same way the pax do

BravoOne · Sun Mar 15, 2015 5:32 pm

I would imagine that the biggest issue for those 717 tanks is meeting the 9G crash worthiness criteria?

DFWflightpath · Sun Mar 15, 2015 6:13 pm

Are the aux tanks connected to the center fuel tank through some sort of access panels in the cabin floor, or some other way?

BravoOne · Sun Mar 15, 2015 6:33 pm

Quoting DFWflightpath (Reply 24):
Are the aux tanks connected to the center fuel tank through some sort of access panels in the cabin floor, or some other way?

That's the way it appears. Using the KISS principal

Stealthz · Sun Mar 15, 2015 11:49 pm

Quoting BravoOne (Reply 25):
That's the way it appears. Using the KISS principal

Had an even simpler system for the SAAB 340/2000. Bladder tank inside and fuel line running out through a special replacement window to modified over wing fuel filler.
No pumps etc, just let cabin pressure force the fuel out.

Viscount724 · Mon Mar 16, 2015 2:29 am

Quoting N104UA (Reply 21):
Actually they usually deliver the 737s to Europe and the A31Xs to the USA via KEF

Many 737NGs have flown nonstop to Europe on delivery flights. I think one of the longest was a 737-700 being delivered in 2007 to defunct Slovakian low-cost carrier SkyEurope Airlines that flew nonstop BFI-BTS (4,699 nm)

strfyr51 · Mon Mar 16, 2015 5:14 am

the airplanes flew SEA- ANC dead south to HNL. The Route negated the winds and made for a smooth ride with the ferry tanks.

BravoOne · Mon Mar 16, 2015 10:20 am

Quoting strfyr51 (Reply 28):
dead south

"Dead south" is that anything like Magnetic or True?

JAGflyer · Mon Mar 16, 2015 5:01 pm

Quoting chrcaremanav (Reply 20):

Very simple. These aircraft operate empty (or with a few crew members onboard only) to either the UK non-stop or to PRG/WAW via KEF. As the aircraft are based in Europe for the summer period they only have to ferry at the beginning and end of their summer leases. You'd be surprised the range that short haul aircraft have when not carrying passengers/luggage.

barney captain · Mon Mar 16, 2015 6:42 pm

frostyj · Tue Mar 17, 2015 3:42 pm

Quoting N104UA (Reply 21):

NO. Ryanair 737's fly over my house all the time from Seattle!

frostyj · Tue Mar 17, 2015 3:44 pm

Quoting chrcaremanav (Reply 20):

No you are wrong. The Sunwing aircraft were based in Belfast/Dublin and flew from Montreal, I think they used Sunwing pilots and Thomson cabin crew.

The distance from Montreal to Belfast is only 2,900 miles.

Quoting Jagflyer (Reply 30):

Eh no once again the Sunwing airplanes were based in Dublin and Belfast they did not go near Poland.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hj9VEdDn52w

[Edited 2015-03-17 08:46:27]

[Edited 2015-03-17 08:49:59]

Maverick623 · Tue Mar 17, 2015 6:37 pm

Quoting N104UA (Reply 21):
Actually they usually deliver the 737s to Europe and the A31Xs to the USA via KEF

A321s routinely fly nonstop XFW-BGR on delivery flight for US/AA. I've never noticed one that had to land in KEF.

kl5147 · Wed Mar 18, 2015 3:24 pm

As said already in reply #15

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 15):
Always remove the "s" in 'https' when posting a link.

Quoting frostyj (Reply 33):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hj9VEdDn52w

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hj9VEdDn52w

WildcatYXU · Wed Mar 18, 2015 4:07 pm

Quoting frostyj (Reply 33):
Eh no once again the Sunwing airplanes were based in Dublin and Belfast they did not go near
Poland.

Slow down a bit, please, since you apparently don't know everything. Sunwing is leasing aircraft from Thomson Airways, Jetairfly and Travel Service during the high season, which is winter around here. Thomson and Travel Service are leasing Sunwing aircraft for the summer, which is the high season in Europe. Therefore you can see Sunwing aircraft in Ireland and UK as well as in Czech Republic and wherever else Travel Service has it's bases.

frostyj · Wed Mar 18, 2015 6:55 pm

Quoting WildcatYXU (Reply 36):

The Sunwing aircraft fly direct to Belfast and Dublin.

Thenoflyzone · Fri Mar 20, 2015 3:25 pm

Quoting frostyj (Reply 33):
No you are wrong. The Sunwing aircraft were based in Belfast/Dublin

Quoting frostyj (Reply 33):
Eh no once again the Sunwing airplanes were based in Dublin and Belfast they did not go near Poland.

You do realize that Sunwing's fleet triples in winter (total of 37 planes in 2015, most form Europe). Not all of these planes come from Thomson Airways.

Travel service has leased 10+ frames to Sunwing this winter. Travel Service is based out of PRG and has three subsidiaries based out of WAW, BUD and BTS.

4 frames were wet-leased, meaning they came with pilots as well. I often deal with Eastern European pilots on Sunwing out of YOW and YQB, which are most likely Czech or Slovak pilots.

Other airlines such as smartwings and jetairfly also lease planes to Sunwing, none of which are based out of Ireland.

So yes, some planes are ferried from Eastern Europe to North America via the UK or KEF.

Here is a list of all the planes Sunwing operates at the moment.

http://www.planespotters.net/Airline/Sunwing-Airlines#AirlineFleetList

frostyj · Fri Mar 20, 2015 4:01 pm

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 38):

I am aware of that. I never assumed the planes came from Thomson. The airplanes have went over my house in previous years, and I have pictures on my phone so don't argue with me please.

The aircraft come here right from Montreal and they stay to the end of October, I even seen one up close this October. I don't know about the aircraft in eastern Europe but they will need a fuel stop I assume.

http://youtu.be/YHq8j1imne4

Viscount724 · Sat Mar 21, 2015 1:22 am

Interesting link to a book excerpt by the late pilot and aviation author Ernest K. Gann in Reply 6 in this thread from last year, covering a DC-3 ferry flight SFO-HNL-APW (Apia, Samoa) in 1968, using ferry tanks. The SFO-HNL sector took 14 hrs.
http://members.airliners.net/aviatio...general_aviation/read.main/6082449

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