Hi Technical / Operations forum,

How are you guys? It's pretty sunny here in Fort Lauderdale...  

Anyway, I'm writing report 27: United First Class+BusinessFirst, 777-200, Dash-8-Q400, Silver Airways Saab 340B+, and a night in Portland, Maine + Portland Jetport FLL✈IAH✈EWR✈PWM✈EWR✈TPA✈FLL

I want to make it a tribute to all the employees of United and Silver Airways (3M), so with that in mind, I have several questions:

1. Are you an employee for United, work for a United Express carrier, or are contracted by United or United Express? If so, please let me know if I can use your username (NOT your real name) in a tribute to UA employees in the foreword of my report. sCO, sUA, C5, 9K, EV, G7, YV, YX, S5, OO, or AX, all current UA employees are welcome, I'd love to show my appreciation!  

2.


2A) N37273 was my 738 Scimitar on FLL-IAH, but are those zig-zag lines in FlightAware an error? Surely an airplane can't turn that sharply?
2B) Why does FlightAware erroneously list this airplane as being a 733 instead of the correct 738?

3.

What causes the rainbow effect on the cockpit windshield? Is that oil or leftover deicing fluid? Seems to be most visible on Airbus frames.

4.

N78005 was my 772 on IAH-EWR. Is it true that the General Electric 90 is the same size as the cabin fuselage of the 737? Friend told me that, but I'm not sure if it was true or not, seems fishy.

5.

What's inside T12 Probe Access?

6.

What city is this? Taken on approach to EWR.

7.

Taken further down the glideslope, what airport is this?

8.

Under N78005, what is EH-GR, and is this unique to each airplane? Meaning, does each airplane have its own XX-YY?

9.

At EWR, how many "A/C Maintenance Zones" are there, and how are the "zones" classified? Are they by concourse?

10.



On the 777-200, how high is the wingtip above the ground? Also, it appears that the wingtip is almost as high as the fuselage ceiling, is that true?

11.

I saw this post on: The Mississippi Delta On Silver Airways' Saab 340! (by KPWMSpotter Jul 8 2013 in Trip Reports)

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 5): Gotta love SAAB! You should have asked the pilot to see the infamous NIGHT PANEL button -- the only feature that overlaps between the cars and plane divisions

N304AG was my SAAB 340BPlus on TPA-FLL, and I asked the F/O (right) about the supposed "Night Panel" button, and he didn't know what I was talking about, but did show me the knob that controls the backlight brightness. What is this "Night Panel" button?

Thank you all for your help, this 19-year-old really appreciates it.  As always, anyone who answers any of the above questions will be acknowledged in the conclusion of the report.

-LPDAL   

Quoting LPDAL (Thread starter): Taken further down the glideslope, what airport is this?

Linden, NJ.

Quoting LPDAL (Thread starter): What city is this? Taken on approach to EWR.

New Brunswick, NJ. Rutgers University is right in the middle of the pic.

Quoting LPDAL (Thread starter): What causes the rainbow effect on the cockpit windshield? Is that oil or leftover deicing fluid? Seems to be most visible on Airbus frames.

Not oil, you're using a polarized lens and that's what a heated window looks like with one.

Quoting tb727 (Reply 2): Not oil, you're using a polarized lens and that's what a heated window looks like with one.

I'm not saying you're wrong, but I must make you aware that I could see the rainbow with my own eyes. The lens is a Nikon Nikkor DSLR D5200 60MM kit lens.

-LPDAL

Well a heated windshield is a sandwich made up of layers of pane "glass" with microfilament heater layers in between the glass. so everything has it's own refraction that will cause the rainbow effect. If you stare/focus really hard and look "in" the glass pane, you'll make out the individual filaments.

EH-GR is the aircraft's SELCAL call. If dispatch wants to contact the aircraft, they'll generate a selcal call to the aircraft. It rings a chime, the crew might get an EICAS advisory "SELCAL" or something like that. Then the crew knows to answer ARINC on a VHF, HF or satcom radio, and then dispatch gets patched to the flight crew over the aircraft radios.

Every selcal equipped aircraft has a different selcal call, but it may not be unique to each airplane, for example there might be a plane in Europe or Africa or Asia that shares the EH-GR selcal call, but dispatch knows where the aircraft it wants to get a hold of is, and will let ARINC know, I want to get a hold of aircraft EH-GR, and it's crossing the Atlantic now, so ARINC will generate the SELCAL tone for the North Alantic, and it won't trigger the SELCAL of the aircraft flying in Asia...

[Edited 2015-04-18 08:37:11]

T12 probe access, gives access to...... the T12 probe...

This might not be using the proper terminology, and I'm just going off fuzzy memory from some college class over 20 years ago - and I'm not an enginerr. sooo with those caveats....

An engine is something that does work via some thermodynamic process and the thermodynamic cycle has reference points, so that engineers can reference the same point of the thermodynamic cycle across different kind of engines.- gas turbine engines, internal combustion engines, etc.

A T probe is a temperature probe, and T12 probe measures the temperature between the 1 and 2 "point" of the Brayton cycle, which is an ideal gas turbine engine, with 1 being outside the system, and 2 being the start of the compression cycle. On the Trent engine, their engineers call it a T12 probe, other engine manufacturers, like General Electric, might call the same probe a T2 probe. It just measures the temperature of the "working medium" i.e. air before it goes into the compression.part of the cycle.

A T54 probe measure the temperature between the 4 and 5 point or basically the temperature between the HP and LP turbine. Pilots know this as ITT temp - engineers call it T54.

A P probe measure pressure.

I'll have to look it up or some engineer will have a reference from a theoretical engine.

[Edited 2015-04-18 08:58:58]

Quoting LPDAL (Thread starter): Is it true that the General Electric 90 is the same size as the cabin fuselage of the 737? Friend told me that, but I'm not sure if it was true or not, seems fishy.

737NG fuselage outer diameter: 148 in.
GE90 engine diameter: 135 in.
GE90 nacelle diameter: 156 in.

Quoting LPDAL (Thread starter): On the 777-200, how high is the wingtip above the ground?

Around 24 feet high. Top of the fuse is around 28 feet high.

Sources:

http://www.boeing.com/assets/pdf/commercial/airports/acaps/737.pdf
http://www.boeing.com/assets/pdf/commercial/airports/acaps/777_23.pdf

Quoting LPDAL (Reply 3): I'm not saying you're wrong, but I must make you aware that I could see the rainbow with my own eyes. The lens is a Nikon Nikkor DSLR D5200 60MM kit lens.

Yeah come to think of it is easy to see with the naked eye on the Airbus. And like Woodreau said, when you have hours to look at the glass you can see all kinds of cool stuff, it's not just a single piece of glass!

This is through polarized sunglasses though on a Falcon..

Quoting tb727 (Reply 8): Yeah come to think of it is easy to see with the naked eye on the Airbus. And like Woodreau said, when you have hours to look at the glass you can see all kinds of cool stuff, it's not just a single piece of glass!

Can see it on almost all aircraft windshields at the right angle. When the heat is on, you can even notice changes in the rainbow pattern.

Quoting LPDAL (Thread starter): What's inside T12 Probe Access?

T12 sensor sends fan inlet air temperature to the EEC on the GE90. The EEC uses T12 output as an input to control fuel flow. Have to break out the General Electric GE90 Training Books GE gave out in Cincinnati. There was a story about why they ended up calling it the T12 Probe. Believe the numbers are referenced to stages of the engine.

[Edited 2015-04-18 11:23:10]

Quoting LPDAL (Thread starter): Under N78005, what is EH-GR, and is this unique to each airplane? Meaning, does each airplane have its own XX-YY?

A code, unique to each airplane and each airplane has it's own code.

Quoting LPDAL (Thread starter): 2A) N37273 was my 738 Scimitar on FLL-IAH, but are those zig-zag lines in FlightAware an error? Surely an airplane can't turn that sharply?

Flightbeware problem.

Quoting LPDAL (Thread starter): 2B) Why does FlightAware erroneously list this airplane as being a 733 instead of the correct 738?

Flightbeware.

Quoting LPDAL (Thread starter): At EWR, how many "A/C Maintenance Zones" are there, and how are the "zones" classified? Are they by concourse?

Each concourse can have several zones. In Denver IIRC, we had 4 at Stapleton's 'C' Concourse. Believe Zone 2 or maybe 3, was the Widebody Zone.

Quoting LPDAL (Thread starter): N304AG was my SAAB 340BPlus on TPA-FLL, and I asked the F/O (right) about the supposed "Night Panel" button, and he didn't know what I was talking about, but did show me the knob that controls the backlight brightness. What is this "Night Panel" button?

More then likely to dim the panel lights.

Quoting CALTECH (Reply 10):

Quoting tb727 (Reply 8):

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 7):

Quoting Woodreau (Reply 6):

Thank you as always!

No more questions at the moment, but I'll write back if I encounter any missing info while scripting.

Have a good day,

-LPDAL

Quoting LPDAL (Reply 3): I'm not saying you're wrong, but I must make you aware that I could see the rainbow with my own eyes. The lens is a Nikon Nikkor DSLR D5200 60MM kit lens.

If you take an undergraduate physics course, you will learn that when light strikes a thin film the path through the film might work out to an integral number of wavelengths of that color of light at certain angles of incidence and it will form a rainbow pattern as certain wavelengths are constructively and/or destructively interfered with, based on film thickness and viewing angle. A cockpit window probably has at least an anti-UV glazing, maybe an anti-glare glazing (common in eyeglasses), and an internal layer of adhesive between the two panes to make it shatter-resistant (nothing except a liquid is shatter"proof") in addition to a micro-thin metal heating layer. Any or all of these films might be contributing to the color you see.

Quoting LPDAL (Thread starter): What's inside T12 Probe Access?

This image is large, so I won't imbed it:
http://airwaysnews.com/galleries/ame...n-gate-2013-20-webmaster_26183.jpg

If you look directly above the man's right shoulder at around 11-o'clock on the inside of the intake cowling on this GE-90-115B you will see a small probe sticking into the intake. Its position coincides exactly with the exterior position of your access panel. That's your T12 probe. Most engines I've seen locate the probe at 12-o'clock, but the 737 and GE-90s on the 777 have them offset. IIRC the probe is at the top on a PW4080-series 777 engine, though. And also on the PW4000s on the 744/767.

I fly the Dash 8 and we might have the "Night Panel" switch you're looking for, although we just call it the Bright/Dim Switch. Basically it controls the intensity of all the various annuciator lights around the cockpit. From the fire detection panel, to the ice protection panel, to the annuciator panel, to all of the lights on the gear panel, etc. You can see the switch in the bottom right of this picture: https://www.airliners.net/photo/Surve...mbardier-DHC-8-202Q-MPA/0637367/L/

and this picture:

https://www.airliners.net/photo/Chang...mbardier-DHC-8-402-Q400/0962905/L/

It's labeled DIM on the top and BRT on the bottom.

It's a three way spring loaded to center switch. When you bring it to BRT, it turns all of the annuciator to a predetermined brightness setting, and vice versa for dim. Putting it to bright or dim while it's already in that state does nothing.

Instrument and panel back lighting is controlled by 4 rheostats on the overhead panel and 1 rheostat on each pilot's side console.

[Edited 2015-04-19 22:52:37]

Quoting freeze3192 (Reply 13): I fly the Dash 8 and we might have the "Night Panel" switch you're looking for, although we just call it the Bright/Dim Switch.

On the 757 there is a "Light Override" switch. Turns on all the floodlights, dome lights, panel lights and lighted annunciators to maximum brightness, regardless of normal control switch positions.

Quoting LPDAL (Thread starter): Is it true that the General Electric 90 is the same size as the cabin fuselage of the 737?

http://i.ytimg.com/vi/gdllTe_spK8/hqdefault.jpg

in 1997 BA did just that, and it seemed like that is the case.

Quoting LPDAL (Thread starter): What causes the rainbow effect on the cockpit windshield?

When you've been on a trip for too many days, and starbucks messed up your order. Coffee is the TRUE fuel for planes.

Quoting LPDAL (Thread starter): How are you guys? It's pretty sunny here in Fort Lauderdale...

Its cold and rainy here in NY !

Quoting LPDAL (Thread starter): What's inside T12 Probe Access?

Its an escape portal for when your TR takes too long to load, and my computer freezes up.      

Quoting SXDFC (Reply 15): Quoting LPDAL (Thread starter):What causes the rainbow effect on the cockpit windshield? When you've been on a trip for too many days, and starbucks messed up your order. Coffee is the TRUE fuel for planes.

Could be all the club soda pilots pour on the windshields to clean the bugs off them. As it dries it leaves a sticky, rainbow residue.   

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 7): Quoting LPDAL (Thread starter): Is it true that the General Electric 90 is the same size as the cabin fuselage of the 737? Friend told me that, but I'm not sure if it was true or not, seems fishy. 737NG fuselage outer diameter: 148 in. GE90 engine diameter: 135 in. GE90 nacelle diameter: 156 in.

...and the fan diameter is 123" for the 90-94, 128" for the -115B. Roughly speaking, the nacelle and fuselage are the same, and the insides are pretty similar too.

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 7): Quoting LPDAL (Thread starter): On the 777-200, how high is the wingtip above the ground? Around 24 feet high. Top of the fuse is around 28 feet high.

I've always been amazed at how high up those wingtips are, same with the 787.

Quoting CALTECH (Reply 14): On the 757 there is a "Light Override" switch. Turns on all the floodlights, dome lights, panel lights and lighted annunciators to maximum brightness, regardless of normal control switch positions.

Similar to the 747 Storm switch.

Quoting LPDAL (Thread starter): 2A) N37273 was my 738 Scimitar on FLL-IAH, but are those zig-zag lines in FlightAware an error? Surely an airplane can't turn that sharply?

Would you like to take a wild guess?

Quoting LPDAL (Thread starter): N78005 was my 772 on IAH-EWR. Is it true that the General Electric 90 is the same size as the cabin fuselage of the 737? Friend told me that, but I'm not sure if it was true or not, seems fishy.

Roughly. Not as big, but close.

Quoting LPDAL (Thread starter): Under N78005, what is EH-GR, and is this unique to each airplane? Meaning, does each airplane have its own XX-YY?

That is the SELCAL ("Selective Calling") code. It's a two-tone calling system used in areas where radio frequencies are less-than-pleasant to continuously monitor.

Quoting ualbq200 (Reply 19): Roughly. Not as big, but close.

Engine diameter, no, but nacelle diameter, yes:

Quoting LH707330 (Reply 17): Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 7):Quoting LPDAL (Thread starter): Is it true that the General Electric 90 is the same size as the cabin fuselage of the 737? Friend told me that, but I'm not sure if it was true or not, seems fishy. 737NG fuselage outer diameter: 148 in. GE90 engine diameter: 135 in. GE90 nacelle diameter: 156 in. ...and the fan diameter is 123" for the 90-94, 128" for the -115B.

Thank you, everyone!

I've return with more questions...

1. Is there a place where I can find how many turns are flown in a city pair by one airline, IE if I wanted to find how many FLLIAHFLL or FLLORDFLL turns are performed daily?

2. Why is wing flex more noticeable on my PMCO 772 compared to my PMCO 738 or any other aircraft? While the 738/739 had some flex, it's much more noticeable on the 777.

3. In accordance with the above, why are the wings designed to flex? What function does that serve?

4. N70085 had an automated announcement system for cabin-wide announcements. Is this controlled by the pilots e.g. when the seat belt switch on the overhead is toggled, does the "Ladies and Gentleman, the captain has turned on the seat belt sign" automatically start playing or does the flight attendant have to press a button at their station?

5. This is a DCA sectional,

Why are all the monuments marked except for the White House? Is the White House the area marked B P-56 WARNING PROHIBITED AREA? I ask because I had a great view on approach IAH-EWR:



6.

Why do they keep the number 2 (?) prop running during turns? How long does it take, in a wintry EWR environment to get both props spinning and running condition from both being completely off?

7. What airport is this? It was carved out on a mesa in the middle of the Appalachians, that has to be a thrilling approach...


8. Is this AVL?


9. And this is what airport?


10. This is the best picture I have, but I'm wondering which airfield this is, too:


11. I think this one was in Maryland, which one is it?


12. What are the former names of these two closed airports? Near NJ / NY:



13. Both of the airports above, though closed, appear to be plowed. Do local airport authorities still plow closed airfields?

14.

What do the "ETOPS CREW" do at EWR?

Thanks for all the help,

-LPDAL

Quoting LPDAL (Reply 21): Why are all the monuments marked except for the White House? Is the White House the area marked B P-56 WARNING PROHIBITED AREA?

I am at work, so the pictures are blocked off. To the best of my knowledge, those are LIKELY TFR's. TFR= Temporary Flight Restriction. Meaning if you and your Cessna venture over into that airspace, you will be met with a nice pair of blackhawks and probably end up with some hefty jail time and fines.

Quoting LPDAL (Reply 21): Why do they keep the number 2 (?) prop running during turns? How long does it take, in a wintry EWR environment to get both props spinning and running condition from both being completely off?

During windy weather, the props tend to "windmill" which might be the reason here, I doubt they'd leave an engine running with people moving about, but I could be wrong.

Quoting LPDAL (Reply 21): What do the "ETOPS CREW" do at EWR?

ETOPS= Extended Twin Engine Operations, because of this ETOPS aircraft have special maintenance procedures that need to be done, to the best of my knowledge. Which is likely what these folks do.

Tried the best I can to at least answer or at least give you an idea..

Quoting LPDAL (Reply 21): 3. In accordance with the above, why are the wings designed to flex? What function does that serve?

So that they can flap like a bird's wings! How else would an aircraft fly?  
Just kidding, of course. It is to relieve stresses on the wing caused by the weight it has to bear, turbulence, etc. If an aircraft's wings couldn't flex, the stress would build up in the wing, and it would eventually become damaged or break. Think of trying to break a candy bar in half versus a piece of taffy. Of course, an actual mechanic, or engineer, or someone who has taken the time to research this can give you a much better explication, but that is the super basic idea behind it. I'm assuming that the 777s wings flex more because they are much bigger structures, and have a much higher weight to bear.

Quoting LPDAL (Reply 21): Why are all the monuments marked except for the White House? Is the White House the area marked B P-56 WARNING PROHIBITED AREA? I ask because I had a great view on approach IAH-EWR:

It's a VFR map so they tend to just point out obvious visual checkpoints that really stand out and as you can see, the Washington monument stands out more than anything.

P-56B(the round one)is the Naval Observatory which doesn't sound like it should be "Prohibited" on its own but that's where the Vice President lives.

Quoting LPDAL (Reply 21): 10.

That's HEF, Manassas, VA

Quoting LPDAL (Reply 21): 8.

Yes, AVL.

Quoting LPDAL (Reply 21): Why do they keep the number 2 (?) prop running during turns? How long does it take, in a wintry EWR environment to get both props spinning and running condition from both being completely off?

Quoting SXDFC (Reply 22): During windy weather, the props tend to "windmill" which might be the reason here, I doubt they'd leave an engine running with people moving about, but I could be wrong.

Looks like this plane just pulled into the gate. We keep #2 spinning until ground power is hooked up. This gives us a source of electrical power, as with no ground power and no engine spinning all we have are the batteries. They don't last very long and it gets very dark in the cabin without any lights. The rampers are well aware of the running engine and take necessary precautions to safely away from the prop until it is shut down.

You can see the ramper at the GPU (ground power unit- bottom left of the image) preparing to pull the cable over to the nose of the aircraft and plug in the ground power.

When departing, it takes less than 2 minutes to start both engines. In order to taxi, the engines are brought out of "start and feather" and that process takes about 45 seconds from bringing them out of feather to wheels rolling, including the checklist.

[Edited 2015-04-23 20:31:10]

Quoting LPDAL (Reply 21): Why are all the monuments marked except for the White House?

There are other issues if you are using that map and you can see the White House.

But really, that is a map for small general aviation aircraft and the white house is in the middle of a prohibited area, so it really isn't much of a use as a visual checkpoint. The Capitol and the Washington Monument are on the edge of the prohibited area, so they could be used as a warning of where to avoid- but if you can see those from a Cessna, you should look for the F-16 off your left wing.

Quoting Web500sjc (Reply 26): There are other issues if you are using that map and you can see the White House. But really, that is a map for small general aviation aircraft and the white house is in the middle of a prohibited area, so it really isn't much of a use as a visual checkpoint. The Capitol and the Washington Monument are on the edge of the prohibited area, so they could be used as a warning of where to avoid- but if you can see those from a Cessna, you should look for the F-16 off your left wing.

lol, I meant to mention that too!

Quoting LPDAL (Reply 21): 13. Both of the airports above, though closed, appear to be plowed. Do local airport authorities still plow closed airfields?

They're not plowed - the snow just melts more easily on the paved runway than on the ground around it.

Quoting LPDAL (Reply 21): 11. I think this one was in Maryland, which one is it?

Phillips Army Airfield

Aberdeen Proving Ground

Aberdeen, MD

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phillips_Army_Airfield

Quoting N415XJ (Reply 23): It is to relieve stresses on the wing caused by the weight it has to bear, turbulence, etc. If an aircraft's wings couldn't flex, the stress would build up in the wing, and it would eventually become damaged or break. Think of trying to break a candy bar in half versus a piece of taffy. Of course, an actual mechanic, or engineer, or someone who has taken the time to research this can give you a much better explication, but that is the super basic idea behind it. I'm assuming that the 777s wings flex more because they are much bigger structures, and have a much higher weight to bear.

That was a concise enough explanation.

As noted, wings flex so that they don't snap. Same reason skyscrapers, bridges, etc. are designed to flex. A perfectly rigid structure sounds great, but doesn't necessarily perform well when subjected to loads.

Quoting LPDAL (Reply 21): 7. What airport is this? It was carved out on a mesa in the middle of the Appalachians, that has to be a thrilling approach...

HSP

Quoting LPDAL (Reply 21): 3. In accordance with the above, why are the wings designed to flex? What function does that serve?

It's called elastic deformation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deformation_%28engineering%29

It's a property of materials when you bend something it "gives." up to a certain point - like your credit card, you can bend it - it flexes and when you let go, it goes back... After you exceed that point it fails - and depending on the material it experiences plastic deformation - it gives some more but now it won't go back to its original shape (like all those bent iPhone 6 Pluses), keep bending it some more, then it ultimately fractures.

It's cool standing in the middle of a passageway on the 03 level of an aircraft carrier and looking down the passageway through all the kneeknockers - like looking through a straw - and seeing the passageway bending and flexing as the carrier goes through the swells and seas.

[Edited 2015-04-27 20:34:19]

As far as your ETOPS CREW question. Aircraft maintained for ETOPS have a more stringent quality control requirements. There probably more training requirements for the mechanics. I'm not up to speed about all the requirements, but as far as I know the same mechanic cannot work on both engines on an ETOPS aircraft. There probably more quality control measures involved.

Some A&P mechanic can probably elaborate further.

Thank you! I finally have another question!

Does United have an equivalent facility to Delta Air Lines' Tech Ops MRO? United Tech Ops? If so, what station (s) is the facility located at?

-LPDAL

Quoting LPDAL (Reply 34): Does United have an equivalent facility to Delta Air Lines' Tech Ops MRO? United Tech Ops? If so, what station (s) is the facility located at?

A lot is done around the system, but SFO is it.

http://www.unitedtechops.com/

"The United Technical Operations MRO Center, located in San Francisco, is a 2.9 million-square-foot facility that is home to more than 3,500 technicians, management, and support personnel. Our facility includes an engine overhaul shop, narrowbody and widebody airframe docks, component shops and more."

Thanks, CALTECH.  

When speaking in the context of mid-to-large-sized airports in the US, how prevalent are lighted windsocks? In one of my pilot textbooks, there was two pictures, one of a tetrahedron, and the other of a windsock. The caption of the one of the windsock said something to the effect of "If you're lucky, the airport you're using may have a lighted windsock". Maybe it was referring to small GA-only fields?

-LPDAL

Quoting Woodreau (Reply 32): There probably more training requirements for the mechanics.

not sure about at UA but yes.
mostly CBTs though.

Quoting LPDAL (Reply 34): Does United have an equivalent facility to Delta Air Lines' Tech Ops MRO? United Tech Ops? If so, what station (s) is the facility located at?

the base out in SFO is huge. It is where they generally do components and engines as well as airframe checks.
United has outsourced a lot of work though.

But as far as size of the MRO DTO is a good big bigger than United.

LPDAL,

With all the answers you're getting to your questions, you have the makings of a very exhaustive report.

....So when do we get to get to read it?  

I've finished FLL-IAH-EWR-PWM, the first section about PWM, the first section about the PWM Embassy Suites, and now I'm writing about my visit to downtown Portland.

My trip reports take time and effort to craft, I just don't sit down and write some garble while listing some pictures. It's so much more than that, which is what I wish people would realize.

-LPDAL

Quoting Woodreau (Reply 6):

Quoting Woodreau (Reply 6): T12 probe access, gives access to...... the T12 probe... This might not be using the proper terminology, and I'm just going off fuzzy memory from some college class over 20 years ago - and I'm not an enginerr. sooo with those caveats.... An engine is something that does work via some thermodynamic process and the thermodynamic cycle has reference points, so that engineers can reference the same point of the thermodynamic cycle across different kind of engines.- gas turbine engines, internal combustion engines, etc. A T probe is a temperature probe, and T12 probe measures the temperature between the 1 and 2 "point" of the Brayton cycle, which is an ideal gas turbine engine, with 1 being outside the system, and 2 being the start of the compression cycle. On the Trent engine, their engineers call it a T12 probe, other engine manufacturers, like General Electric, might call the same probe a T2 probe. It just measures the temperature of the "working medium" i.e. air before it goes into the compression.part of the cycle. A T54 probe measure the temperature between the 4 and 5 point or basically the temperature between the HP and LP turbine. Pilots know this as ITT temp - engineers call it T54.

*******************************************************************************************************************************************
You're making this harder than it has to be.
Starting at the compressir and count forward toward the Turbone the T1 probe is the Temperatre probe in the intake
many times it's also the PT1 probe (Press/Temp 1st stage) Depanding where the probes are by engine Manufacturer
they're generally at the Compressor Inlet (CIT) a mid stage Compressor outlet ( for pressure) Turbine Inlet or outlet (TIT or EGT) or PT7- PT12
they identify the probes according ro What stage they are in the engine from front to back.
Each might send a specific signal to the Electronic Engine Control as hardly any engines are still electro- mechanically controlled anymore

Quoting LPDAL (Reply 36): When speaking in the context of mid-to-large-sized airports in the US, how prevalent are lighted windsocks? In one of my pilot textbooks, there was two pictures, one of a tetrahedron, and the other of a windsock. The caption of the one of the windsock said something to the effect of "If you're lucky, the airport you're using may have a lighted windsock". Maybe it was referring to small GA-only fields?

Orlando has one lighted windsock on the southwest side of the airfield, next to runway 18R/36L, pretty sure remembering another one over by the east 17/35 runways.

Quoting LPDAL (Thread starter): What's inside T12 Probe Access?

T12 Probe that measures inlet temp and sends it to the EEC. It is called the T12 Probe as it is mounted at GE90 Station 12. STA 0 is ambient, and some other Stations in the GE90 after STA 12 are STA 14, STA 25, STA 3, STA 49 and STA 5, in that order.

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 37): the base out in SFO is huge. It is where they generally do components and engines as well as airframe checks. United has outsourced a lot of work though. But as far as size of the MRO DTO is a good big bigger than United.

Some stats,

AMERICAN
The Base occupies about 260 acres (1.1 km2) and 3,300,000 square feet (310,000 m2) of maintenance "plant" at the Tulsa Airport.
@11,000 Techs

DELTA
Our Atlanta facility is our home base, and covers nearly 2.7 million square feet (about 250,000 square meters or the size of 47 football fields).
@9600 Techs

UNITED
The United Technical Operations MRO Center, located in San Francisco, is a [b]2.9 million-square-foot facility]/b] that is home to more than 3,500 technicians, management, and support personnel.
@8600 Techs

Quoting CALTECH (Reply 41): Some stats,

I'm not sure what this is suppose to mean....?

I don't mean the size of a base I mean by revenue. DTO is the largest airline MRO in North America.

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 42): I'm not sure what this is suppose to mean....? I don't mean the size of a base I mean by revenue. DTO is the largest airline MRO in North America.

Just what it says. If you go by technicians in TechOps, American is bigger. If you go by size of the largest main facility, American is bigger. If you go by how many technicians are in one location, believe Delta has the largest amount in one location, Atlanta.

American Airlines does 80-90 percent of it's own work inhouse, and a few years ago, do not know if it changed, 100% of it's heavy MX inhouse.

American/USAir will eclipse Delta and United TechOps. Revenue just means a lot of outside contract work is being performed. Not a really good statistic to go by. Maintenance has always been a cost to a airline company, not a big revenue producer. Good to see Delta generating some revenue from their TechOps. But noticed Delta's costs for Aircraft MX are up there, much above American and United from what I have seen. Probably the cost of keeping those older aircraft flying I suppose. United farmed out so much MX before the merger, that flight crews are happy to see United MX back in a whole bunch of cities. It has been a shadow of it's former self.

"Glen W. Hauenstein, Age 53: Executive Vice President - Chief Revenue Office of Delta since August 2013; Executive Vice
President-Network Planning and Revenue Management of Delta (April 2006 - July 2013); Executive Vice President and Chief
of Network and Revenue Management of Delta (August 2005-April 2006); Vice General Director-Chief Commercial Officer
and Chief Operating Officer of Alitalia (2003-2005); Senior Vice President-Network of Continental Airlines (2003); Senior
Vice President-Scheduling of Continental Airlines (2001- 2003); Vice President Scheduling of Continental Airlines
(1998-2001)."

Delta took one of our good ones,....

Quoting CALTECH (Reply 43): American Airlines does 80-90 percent of it's own work inhouse, and a few years ago, do not know if it changed, 100% of it's heavy MX inhouse.

American sends out 35% of its MX.
US is well over 50% of its MX being sent out.

Quoting CALTECH (Reply 43): If you go by size of the largest main facility, American is bigger.

okay but i have literally never ever once in my life heard the size of an MRO judged by the size of its facility.

and its hard to be a big MRO when you basically don't do work for anyone but yourself......

Quoting CALTECH (Reply 43): Not a really good statistic to go by. Maintenance has always been a cost to a airline company, not a big revenue producer.

600M-700M in revenue is not a "big" revenue producer?


and when talking about being an MRO, revenue is the statistic to go by.

Quoting CALTECH (Reply 43): But noticed Delta's costs for Aircraft MX are up there, much above American and United from what I have seen

Delta's MX CASM is about 10 cents lower than AA or UA.....
but for total costs to Delta a huge huge part of the higher costs right now is all the mod work Delta is doing. Just finished up all the international aircraft now they are doing mods on basically all of the domestic fleet. 737, 320, 319, 752, 753.... lots and lots of mods.

DTO is also re-adjusting the business a little bit. Been bringing in a ton of work and gearing up for the next gen airplanes and engines.

Quoting CALTECH (Reply 43): United farmed out so much MX before the merger, that flight crews are happy to see United MX back in a whole bunch of cities. It has been a shadow of it's former self.

It has.
Hopefully the IBT can gain some ground with scope and get more work back in-house. Hopefully they get into the next gen engine game like Delta is doing.

Quoting CALTECH (Reply 43): Delta took one of our good ones,....

best executive Delta has, IMHO.

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 44): American sends out 35% of its MX. US is well over 50% of its MX being sent out.

Read a press release where they claim for 2014 that about 90% of all their MX and 100% of their heavy MX is done inhouse.

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 44): okay but i have literally never ever once in my life heard the size of an MRO judged by the size of its facility. and its hard to be a big MRO when you basically don't do work for anyone but yourself......

Well I've never heard about the size of MRO based on just revenue till the last few years, always about work being performed, manhours, and qualifications on different aircraft, engines, flight controls, wheel and brake overhauls, composite repair and so on. MRO does stand for Maintenance Repair and Overhaul. American had a press release recently where they surpassed 500 million in contract work. Remember performing contract MX work at out stations for other carriers. Many times, performed more work for other carriers then on our own.

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 44): 600M-700M in revenue is not a "big" revenue producer? and when talking about being an MRO, revenue is the statistic to go by.

Well, revenue from contract work just offsets cost of aircraft maintenance, good to see Delta getting some revenue out of TechOps, but almost all airlines do. Cost of maintenance performed or total Technicians employed would be a better indicator of all maintenance being performed, or MRO size. Read that American runs about 1.3 billion in MX costs with over 500 million in contract work(excluding USAir ?), Delta runs about 1.855 billion with 600-700 million in contract work, and United ran about 1.8 billion in 2013 ., American does have about 11,000 techs(including USAir ?), Delta has about 9600, and United 8600. Aircraft Maintenance has always been a cost that bean counters hate. At SouthWest, any SWA Tech correct this, it was in their contract from a few years ago, that they will have something like 2.5 Techs per airplane. At the time, SWA had about 700 aircraft and about 1800 Techs. At Continental Airlines, we had about 350 aircraft and about 3700 Technicians, over 10 Techs per aircraft. That was from a few years back. Read that American was looking into sending some wide body heavy maintenance in China a couple of years ago.

American makes claims and goes by facility size and number of Techs. Marketing.

" Vice president Carmine J. Romano is in charge of American Airlines' aircraft maintenance facility in Tulsa, the largest in the world."

And years ago, United's SFO MX Base was the largest in the world. They are recalling some Techs to SFO recently.

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 44): Delta's MX CASM is about 10 cents lower than AA or UA..... but for total costs to Delta a huge huge part of the higher costs right now is all the mod work Delta is doing. Just finished up all the international aircraft now they are doing mods on basically all of the domestic fleet. 737, 320, 319, 752, 753.... lots and lots of mods. DTO is also re-adjusting the business a little bit. Been bringing in a ton of work and gearing up for the next gen airplanes and engines.

Lots of MOD work being performed everywhere. Lots of money being spent.

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 44): It has. Hopefully the IBT can gain some ground with scope and get more work back in-house. Hopefully they get into the next gen engine game like Delta is doing.

Well, that PBTH engine contracts seem to be the way United is going for now.

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 44): best executive Delta has, IMHO.

Looks like he has done good for Delta. Can we get him back to increase our revenue for a couple of years ?

How come ticketing, ramp, mechanic, and all other sorts of airline employee computers use MSDOS looking interfaces that almost require a knowledge of coding language to use? Why haven't they been upgraded to a more employee-friendly GUI, while customer kiosks are very user friendly? Wouldn't having a more user friendly GUI, instead of a MSDOS looking command prompt system, increase employee efficiency?

-LPDAL

I personally like the command line interface.

I'd rather type
G*L1234/31 PALL

in 1/2 second to get the information I want than click, where is that button, click, pull down menu, click, and 5 seconds later accomplish what I want.

Yes if you're not familiar with the SABRE CLI, a user friendly GUI interface will help you get what you want accomplished, but once you know what you're doing and what commands you need to accomplish a GUI slow and impedes efficiency... you can just get more done faster using the CLI once you know what you're doing.

If there are certain specific command sets that you use, you can program them into function keys, and then it's just a one button push like F1 to accomplish a command set. One button push much faster than click, click, click, click, etc.

[Edited 2015-05-19 07:29:35]

Quoting CALTECH (Reply 45): Read a press release where they claim for 2014 that about 90% of all their MX and 100% of their heavy MX is done inhouse.

not anymore. During BK they gutted the contract.
The max they can outsource now is 35% i believe. They send the 777s to China. Don't do blade and vane work anymore and are sending the GE90 engines to GE. (just a few examples.)

Quoting CALTECH (Reply 45): Well I've never heard about the size of MRO based on just revenue till the last few years,

because more and more airlines are outsourcing or trying to make it less of a cost center and more of a revenue producer.
Airlines like Delta that want to do work in-house have to make it viable to wall street. They don't care about TATs or TBOs....they care about money.

Quoting CALTECH (Reply 45): always about work being performed, manhours, and qualifications on different aircraft, engines, flight controls, wheel and brake overhauls, composite repair and so on.

Wall street could case less about all that. Its all about the money.

and I think we are talking about two different things. I am not talking about the total size of the MX operations at the airlines, i am talking about all the work those airlines do for other airlines. Not themselves.

Quoting CALTECH (Reply 45): American had a press release recently where they surpassed 500 million in contract work

I would love a link....

Quoting CALTECH (Reply 45): Well, revenue from contract work just offsets cost of aircraft maintenance, good to see Delta getting some revenue out of TechOps, but almost all airlines do.

sure they do. I didn't say that. Fact is Delta is the largest airline MRO in North America. Just like American is the largest airline in the world.
I can find a stat that says UA or DL are larger but using the industry standard metrics Delta is the largest.

"Delta TechOps is the largest airline maintenance, repair and overhaul provider in North America"

http://www.deltatechops.com/news/vie...ovider-oneaero-mro-top-shop-awards

Quoting CALTECH (Reply 45): " Vice president Carmine J. Romano is in charge of American Airlines' aircraft maintenance facility in Tulsa, the largest in the world."

Airline base size doesn't mean anything. Sorry.
AA has one base
Delta has two.

That is just an airline doing different things.
and when you add ATL+MSP I believe they are together larger than TUL.....

Quoting CALTECH (Reply 45): Lots of MOD work being performed everywhere. Lots of money being spent.

no question about it.
but it matters with outsourcing % right now because of the amount of lines being done. What i mean is with all the mods Delta is doing they couldn't do them in house if they wanted. Just don't have the room.
I have never seen so many mods going on at one time before at Delta.

Quoting CALTECH (Reply 45): Well, that PBTH engine contracts seem to be the way United is going for now.

IBT needs to change that. You guys can, just gotta get the union to do it.

Quoting CALTECH (Reply 45): Looks like he has done good for Delta. Can we get him back to increase our revenue for a couple of years ?

haha.

no sorry.

I'm going to attempt to see if I can get some of the second half of the report done this evening, once I get home from the office.

Here's what I have left;

-Portland International Jetport Embassy Suites Part 2
-Portland International Jetport Embassy Suites Part 3 (The next morning)
-Portland International Jetport Part 2 (A snowy morning)
-PWM-EWR
-EWR Layover Part 2
-EWR-TPA
-TPA Layover
-TPA-FLL (3M)

-LPDAL