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uta999
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LHR With 3 Runways

Wed Jul 08, 2015 10:37 am

Leap forward 10 years and Heathrow opens the brand new runway, called 28/10

How will having three runways work there?

Runway alternation will hopefully disappear and the runways will all be used for TO & landing throughout the day. This will avoid the very long taxi in/out, that happens at CDG.

The runways will probably close from midnight to 5am to all but emergencies. There will be heavy restrictions after 11pm and before 6am too.

The four holds around London will only be used in bad weather. NATS are due to slow arrivals down up to 1000 miles out, so that bunching over London in the morning/evening peak becomes rare.

If two, or even three runways were used for landing in the peak, the gap between arrivals (for people living under the approach) would be greatly increased to over six minutes. This should be included in the planning/environment application and enquiry for the third runway.

By using all three runways in mixed mode at all times, thus avoiding using holds and reducing taxiing when on the ground noise and pollution will be far less than now. More A/C could also be towed to/from the runways too.

Smaller aircraft A32x/73x should also use a 1500m displaced threshold on each landing runway , so they are higher on approach over London. The A32x usually make the most obtrusive noise.
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mmo
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RE: LHR With 3 Runways

Wed Jul 08, 2015 10:52 am

Quoting uta999 (Thread starter):
Smaller aircraft A32x/73x should also use a 1500m displaced threshold on each landing runway , so they are higher on approach over London. The A32x usually make the most obtrusive noise.

So, how does one accomplish an ILS approach?

Quoting uta999 (Thread starter):
NATS are due to slow arrivals down up to 1000 miles out, so that bunching over London in the morning/evening peak becomes rare.

That is going to be a little difficult to do in the NAT track system. Not everyone there is going to LHR and you will have the tracks looking like an accordion. How do you handle non LHR traffic?
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77west
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RE: LHR With 3 Runways

Wed Jul 08, 2015 11:24 am

Quoting mmo (Reply 1):
That is going to be a little difficult to do in the NAT track system. Not everyone there is going to LHR and you will have the tracks looking like an accordion. How do you handle non LHR traffic?

LHR specific tracks perhaps? Would not be hard to do.
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RE: LHR With 3 Runways

Wed Jul 08, 2015 11:43 am

Quoting mmo (Reply 1):
Quoting uta999 (Thread starter):
Smaller aircraft A32x/73x should also use a 1500m displaced threshold on each landing runway , so they are higher on approach over London. The A32x usually make the most obtrusive noise.

So, how does one accomplish an ILS approach?

By using an RNAV approach with augmentation allowing vertical guidance?  I predict messiness.
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uta999
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RE: LHR With 3 Runways

Wed Jul 08, 2015 12:16 pm

They could simply fly the thing like they were trained to.

After AF447, some pilots need to go back to basics and fly more.

An extra set of PAPI lights on both sides of the displaced runway perhaps.
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LH707330
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RE: LHR With 3 Runways

Wed Jul 08, 2015 5:00 pm

Quoting uta999 (Thread starter):
Smaller aircraft A32x/73x should also use a 1500m displaced threshold on each landing runway , so they are higher on approach over London. The A32x usually make the most obtrusive noise.

Not sure the displaced threshold would help much. Heathrow's something like 15 miles away from central London, so adding 1500 meters (~a mile) is 7%.

What they could do is have a rule to encourage A32X operators to retrofit the VGs that eliminate the howl, then they sound almost like 737s.
 
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RE: LHR With 3 Runways

Wed Jul 08, 2015 5:49 pm

Quoting LH707330 (Reply 5):
Not sure the displaced threshold would help much. Heathrow's something like 15 miles away from central London, so adding 1500 meters (~a mile) is 7%.

A mile horizontally is about 250 feet vertically on a typical 3-degree glidepath. Doesn't seem like much, but it does make a difference.

But 15 miles out, I'm not sure the aircraft are on the glideslope anyway.

Quoting mmo (Reply 1):
So, how does one accomplish an ILS approach?

Details.... 
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SPREE34
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RE: LHR With 3 Runways

Wed Jul 08, 2015 6:31 pm

Quoting mmo (Reply 1):

That is going to be a little difficult to do in the NAT track system

Probably would only be done in the RADAR environment.
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mmo
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RE: LHR With 3 Runways

Wed Jul 08, 2015 6:43 pm

Quoting 77west (Reply 2):
LHR specific tracks perhaps? Would not be hard to do.

You are joking right? I can see it now, the problems of trying to get from North America to the rest of Europe. Why not have tracks for AMS and another one for DUB....it's not going to work!

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 3):
I predict messiness.

My point exactly!

Quoting uta999 (Reply 4):
They could simply fly the thing like they were trained to.

After AF447, some pilots need to go back to basics and fly more.

An extra set of PAPI lights on both sides of the displaced runway perhaps.

So, what happens when the weather is less than VFR? Which rarely happens at LHR....

Quoting SPREE34 (Reply 7):
Probably would only be done in the RADAR environment.

You do realize the NATS have CPDLC/ADSB coverage. How will you effect separation in the tracks. As it is, they are pretty packed till the exit point so your options are extremely limited if any.
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StarAC17
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RE: LHR With 3 Runways

Fri Jul 10, 2015 2:36 am

Quoting uta999 (Thread starter):
Runway alternation will hopefully disappear and the runways will all be used for TO & landing throughout the day. This will avoid the very long taxi in/out, that happens at CDG.

I would say that whatever side the new runway is on, the outside one would be used for landing and the inner one used for takeoffs. That would be 9R/27L, 9L/27R and the single runway on the other side of the terminals would be renamed 10/28.

It makes no sense to have all three runways multi-use if two are on one side of the field as there would be crossings to take off and land instead of one or the other as an airport like CDG or LAX accommodates. This would also give airlines the freedom to go to the closest runway to their gate. If you were to make all three runways multi-use then you would have to build a true 9C/27C runway that doesn't need to be crossed.

Quoting uta999 (Thread starter):
Smaller aircraft A32x/73x should also use a 1500m displaced threshold on each landing runway , so they are higher on approach over London. The A32x usually make the most obtrusive noise.

If you are going to do that then put displaced thresholds on the 27 approaches for all aircraft. There is no safety issue in stopping a heavy in the 2000-2500m left over provided you don't have an emergency. If you were concerned about noise then you could build a shorter runway also that starts 500m after it's most adjacent runway.

At the end of the day safety trumps noise and if the people of London aren't willing to build a new airport they will have to deal with the noise.
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RE: LHR With 3 Runways

Sat Jul 11, 2015 6:57 am

Quoting uta999 (Thread starter):
Leap forward 10 years and Heathrow opens the brand new runway, called 28/10

Right, try 20-30 years at the usual bureaucratic rate..
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SPREE34
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RE: LHR With 3 Runways

Sun Jul 12, 2015 3:13 am

Quoting mmo (Reply 8):
You do realize the NATS have CPDLC/ADSB coverage. How will you effect separation in the tracks. As it is, they are pretty packed till the exit point so your options are extremely limited if any.

Yes, I do "realize". Thus, my comment.
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mmo
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RE: LHR With 3 Runways

Sun Jul 12, 2015 4:53 am

Quoting SPREE34 (Reply 11):
Yes, I do "realize". Thus, my comment
Quoting SPREE34 (Reply 7):
Probably would only be done in the RADAR environment.

Well, then you would "realize" that at 1000 miles you'd still be in the NAT system. Thus my comment!
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SPREE34
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RE: LHR With 3 Runways

Sun Jul 12, 2015 8:50 pm

Quoting mmo (Reply 12):
Well, then you would "realize" that at 1000 miles you'd still be in the NAT system. Thus my comment!

Serioulsy?

My comment states that (I'll re-word for YOU) the delaying maneuvers will be done in RADAR Control. Because, as you state, the tracks will be packed. Thus, wait until you can provide RADAR service, use turns to get it, and speeds to keep it. (That "affect" will create the "effect". Just saying)

Most of the thousand mile stuff will be done with controlled departure times, then (if the other Euro ATC units buy off) speed assignments and in-trail spacing. It's been done for years here in the US, and is still part of the process when needed.

The tracks aren't the place to screw around. I've sat in UK ATC facilities and watched them work. Many procedures for the London Terminam Area are pathetically out dated. That is no reflection on their controllers, it's a political reality.
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mmo
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RE: LHR With 3 Runways

Sun Jul 12, 2015 9:34 pm

Quoting SPREE34 (Reply 13):
Thus, wait until you can provide RADAR service, use turns to get it, and speeds to keep it. (That "affect" will create the "effect". Just saying)

That is what is trying to be avoided! Why burn holes in the sky and dump more CO2 into the air. The entire ATC system is totally inadequate for the current level of traffic. The current level of technology should allow a much better ATC system. However, the resistance to change is what will bring down the ATC system in most parts of the world. In the other parts, it's all ready failed.

Quoting SPREE34 (Reply 13):
I've sat in UK ATC facilities and watched them work. Many procedures for the London Terminam Area are pathetically out dated

I have too, and have flown in them. If most major arrival/departure facilities worked as well as Heathrow Controller, it would be a vast improvement.
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Jetlagged
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RE: LHR With 3 Runways

Mon Jul 13, 2015 8:47 pm

Quoting uta999 (Thread starter):
Runway alternation will hopefully disappear and the runways will all be used for TO & landing throughout the day. This will avoid the very long taxi in/out, that happens at CDG.

Runway alternation is used to minimise noise nuisance. It gives people under the flightpath long, noise free periods. Adding a third runway is not a reason to get rid of it. That would mean everyone under the flightpaths will get some noise all day long. Not a good way to persuade residents that the third runway is a good neighbour.

Quoting uta999 (Thread starter):
By using all three runways in mixed mode at all times, thus avoiding using holds and reducing taxiing when on the ground noise and pollution will be far less than now. More A/C could also be towed to/from the runways too.

The only way LHR can operate at the capacity it does is by splitting the runways into takeoff and landing modes. Mixed operation creates less efficient slot usage, offsetting the additional capacity of the third runway. Towing aircraft off the runway at a busy airport like LHR is asking for logistical problems. It's bad enough waiting for a tug early in the morning. If you have to do that all day .....

The new runway will be shorter and is no doubt primarily for short haul traffic. It may well be mixed mode. I don't think the operation of the two existing runways will change.

Quoting uta999 (Thread starter):
Smaller aircraft A32x/73x should also use a 1500m displaced threshold on each landing runway , so they are higher on approach over London. The A32x usually make the most obtrusive noise.

That makes almost no difference to noise on the ground, while adding much complication for ATC. By the time the runway is built we may well have quieter engines still, so less noise on the ground. The noise problem of aircraft on approach is I think greatly exaggerated by activists. It's been dramatically reduced over the years yet people behave as if the problem is the same. Often ground traffic makes more noise than airliners, but it's the aircraft noise that gets complained about.
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SPREE34
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RE: LHR With 3 Runways

Tue Jul 14, 2015 6:16 pm

Quoting mmo (Reply 14):
That is what is trying to be avoided! Why burn holes in the sky and dump more CO2 into the air.

The methods I describe (High altitude) result in much less CO2 than the present low altitude holding stacks. They would be an improvement over the present system. Clearly, not optimal, just better.
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DiscoverCSG
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RE: LHR With 3 Runways

Mon Jul 20, 2015 8:33 pm

Quoting Jetlagged (Reply 15):
The only way LHR can operate at the capacity it does is by splitting the runways into takeoff and landing modes.

Really? I'd long been under the impression that 2 runways in mixed-mode operations would carry more traffic than the same two runways in segregated mode.

Can anybody illuminate this with some data?
 
uta999
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RE: LHR With 3 Runways

Wed Jul 22, 2015 10:39 am

I think using all three runways for landing in mixed mode, will result in far less noise than people are used to now.

Landing traffic would be spread over a two mile wide area, rather than a single steady stream. It also means there won't be a hold prior to landing allowing straight in approaches over the Thames estuary. This avoids the present risk of traffic joining final from the north and south London over a heavily populated central London.

With three runways for departures too, they will be able to line up far nearer their gates, without crossing an active runway. Most don't need the full length, so would use an intersection for departure.

It also means there will be no long queues for departure, blocking vital areas of the field.

It would operate similar to LGW only three fold.

More needs to be made of the potential lowering in terms of noise and emissions by an expanded Heathrow. People wrongly think it will cause an increase. It won't.
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Pihero
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RE: LHR With 3 Runways

Wed Jul 22, 2015 2:34 pm

This subject is complex enough that shortcuts and uninformed statements are a real nuisance.
What's the capacity od a runway ?
- It depends on
1/- ARRIVALS :
1.a/- separation between heavies and mediums for wake turbulence risks.
1.b/- Pilots' discipline on recommended or mandatory runway occupancy time ( ROT arrival ). That means the quickest exit via the closest runway exit in, a comfortable manner. That means that pilots are discouraged to exit at the closest point to their gate. A generalisation of the BTV system and used by ATC could improve situation a lot
1.c/- management of landing clearances in order to land airplanes as close to one another as possible. Some of them are really really laate and I don't think it can be improved.

2/- DEPARTURES
2.a/- Separation between heavies and mediums for wake turbulence risks. On this subject, an intersection departure runs the risk of getting the smaller plane inside the preceding heavy vortices, hence the THREE Minutes separation in this case. Not a good idea, then... unless ATC lines up a number of mediums at intersections which would go before a heavy.
2.b/- Pïlots' reaction to an ATC takeoff clearance : statistics show an average of 45 to 50 seconds to a departure readiness and to 25 seconds after the takeoff clearance ==)> total = 50 to 75 seconds after the runway penetration. That's the (ROT.departure)
2.c/- Separation on departing flights on the same route.

3/- MIXED DEP and ARR on same runway :
3.a:- The tactics are a lot more complex as both arriving and departing aircraft are moving at the same time and there are risks of conflicts : an RTO for the one at takeoff means a late go-around for the one landing.
By the same token, a go-around of the arriving flight makes conflicts a lot more likely with the departing airplane's SID, not forgetting the presence of similar flights / similar conflicts from the other runway (s).
This set-up, as a matter of fact doubles the separation between arriving aircraft... it doesn't look like a winning solution, does it ?
The proof at LHR is that that solution is not the preferred one.

4/- Holding
4.a/- En-Route is difficult because of the NAT track system : one cannot delay flights en-route to the continent just to suit the UK needs
4.b/- London is a major European city : Therefore one would see a mix of long haulers, from the North, East and West ( fewer fropm the south). and low altitude medium to short flights from Continental Europe... who will land first ?
The future solution could be implementation of one of SESAR's projects : management of flows right from the departure point... but it's still years in the future. So the holding system will still be in force for the foreseeable future.

In conclusion, the third LHR runway is not exactly the panacea. As I understand the plan, it will be used either for arrivals or for takeoffs depending on the time of the day : early in the morning to cater for the arrivals, later for takeoffs... etc...

The noise has never really entered the equation : one, flying over London makes a lot less noise than the traffic, and two airplanes are getting quieter as time passes. It's only the NIMBYs who care.
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Thenoflyzone
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RE: LHR With 3 Runways

Tue Aug 04, 2015 4:10 pm

Quoting DiscoverCSG (Reply 17):
Really? I'd long been under the impression that 2 runways in mixed-mode operations would carry more traffic than the same two runways in segregated mode.

Can anybody illuminate this with some data?

For LHR, segregated capacity is around 480,000. Mixed mode, it goes up to 540,000 or so. Easily a 10-15 % increase.
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Pihero
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RE: LHR With 3 Runways

Tue Aug 04, 2015 6:33 pm

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 20):
For LHR, segregated capacity is around 480,000. Mixed mode, it goes up to 540,000 or so. Easily a 10-15 % increase.

Could you provide us with the source, please ?
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Thenoflyzone
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RE: LHR With 3 Runways

Tue Aug 04, 2015 7:18 pm

us Air Traffic Controllers have a good record, we haven't left one up there yet !!
 
Tchocky
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RE: LHR With 3 Runways

Wed Aug 05, 2015 12:39 pm

Heathrow inbounds from certain directions are already being slowed down in the cruise phase - up to 350nm out I believe. This has been going on for at least 6 months.
 
a3xx900
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RE: LHR With 3 Runways

Wed Aug 05, 2015 2:05 pm

Quoting mmo (Reply 1):
Quoting uta999 (Thread starter):Smaller aircraft A32x/73x should also use a 1500m displaced threshold on each landing runway , so they are higher on approach over London. The A32x usually make the most obtrusive noise.
So, how does one accomplish an ILS approach?

Like they did in FRA before the introduction of the third parallel runway.

(Please correct me, I only remember some facts)

The southern runway had two different ILS signals on both sides. One was the regular 25L/07R signal, the other was placed a few hundred feet into the runway and called 06/24 (or 08/26). That allowed for parallel approaches with a lateral separation.

I do, however, not believe that this will help with noise reduction.
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Pihero
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RE: LHR With 3 Runways

Wed Aug 05, 2015 7:22 pm

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 22):
http://www.hounslow.gov.uk/mixedmode

http://www.lbhf.gov.uk/Images/Heathr...e%20(1%20Feb%2008)_tcm21-93349.pdf

Thanks for the links.
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