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dakotasport
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Posts: 232
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Speed Requests In Climb

Tue Oct 06, 2015 12:35 am

Hello All.

I am registered to receive Civil Aviation Daily Occurrence Report System or CADORS reports automatically to my email and I have noticed that a lot of them are heavies requesting a speed of greater than 250kts in the climb. I thought that this was forbidden.

Can someone shed some light??
 
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Moose135
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RE: Speed Requests In Climb

Tue Oct 06, 2015 1:11 am

In the US, you can request a higher airspeed below 10K if necessary for operation reasons, such as needing a higher airspeed to climb because of higher weight.
KC-135 - Passing gas and taking names!
 
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zeke
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RE: Speed Requests In Climb

Tue Oct 06, 2015 1:12 am

Quoting dakotasport (Thread starter):

Clean speed is often above 250 kts on a heavy. It is normally granted without a fuss.

As for 250 below 10, most countries around the world have no issue with 300+ below 10, just ask.
“Don't be a show-off. Never be too proud to turn back. There are old pilots and bold pilots, but no old, bold pilots.” E. Hamilton Lee, 1949
 
dakotasport
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RE: Speed Requests In Climb

Tue Oct 06, 2015 1:18 am

Thank you both very much for chiming in.
 
Viscount724
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RE: Speed Requests In Climb

Tue Oct 06, 2015 1:27 am

Quoting dakotasport (Thread starter):
I am registered to receive Civil Aviation Daily Occurrence Report System or CADORS reports automatically to my email and I have noticed that a lot of them are heavies requesting a speed of greater than 250kts in the climb

I wonder why Transport Canada has only recently started including those over 250kt speed requests below 10,000 feet in their daily reports? They've only been doing it for the past couple of months. There must be a dozen or more every day.
 
flyboy80
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RE: Speed Requests In Climb

Tue Oct 06, 2015 2:28 am

do most commercial airliners climb at relatively the same angle, regardless of payload, or is it more speed dependant on payload? Of course this is assuming theres no obstacle avoidance or anything. I assume in congested areas there are climb requirements as not to interfere with other traffic as well.

As far as fuel efficiency is concerned I suppose the highest distance (speed) track the fastest may not be the best as the fastest vertical ascent, because after all you must get high to burn less fuel correct?
 
DiamondFlyer
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RE: Speed Requests In Climb

Tue Oct 06, 2015 3:16 am

Quoting flyboy80 (Reply 5):
do most commercial airliners climb at relatively the same angle, regardless of payload, or is it more speed dependant on payload?

Climb isn't done by pitch attitude, it's done by speed. You climb at your profile speed and take whatever angle that happens to give you.

-DiamondFlyer
From my cold, dead hands
 
atct
Posts: 2472
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2001 6:42 am

RE: Speed Requests In Climb

Tue Oct 06, 2015 5:51 am

Out of our ATC manual

NOTE−
1. A pilot operating at or above 10,000 feet MSL on an
assigned speed adjustment greater than 250 knots is
expected to comply with 14 CFR Section 91.117(a) when
cleared below 10,000 feet MSL, within domestic airspace,
without notifying ATC. Pilots are expected to comply with
the other provisions of 14 CFR Section 91.117 without
notification.
2. Speed restrictions of 250 knots do not apply to aircraft
operating beyond 12 NM from the coastline within the
U.S. Flight Information Region, in offshore Class E
airspace below 10,000 feet MSL. However, in airspace
underlying a Class B airspace area designated for an
airport, or in a VFR corridor designated through such as
a Class B airspace area, pilots are expected to comply with
the 200 knot speed limit specified in 14 CFR
Section 91.117(c). (See 14 CFR Sections 91.117(c) and
91.703.)

Sec. 91.117 — Aircraft speed.

(a) Unless otherwise authorized by the Administrator, no person may operate an aircraft below 10,000 feet MSL at an indicated airspeed of more than 250 knots (288 m.p.h.).
(b) Unless otherwise authorized or required by ATC, no person may operate an aircraft at or below 2,500 feet above the surface within 4 nautical miles of the primary airport of a Class C or Class D airspace area at an indicated airspeed of more than 200 knots (230 mph.). This paragraph (b) does not apply to any operations within a Class B airspace area. Such operations shall comply with paragraph (a) of this section.

(c) No person may operate an aircraft in the airspace underlying a Class B airspace area designated for an airport or in a VFR corridor designated through such a Class B airspace area, at an indicated airspeed of more than 200 knots (230 mph).

(d) If the minimum safe airspeed for any particular operation is greater than the maximum speed prescribed in this section, the aircraft may be operated at that minimum speed.




So long story short, if you want a high speed climb for "minimum safe speed", It's legal. Just because you want to clean up, well, there is some debate on "Clean" means safe. An age old debate.

Personally, I just say "Resume normal speed" and it's your ticket, not mine.
Trikes are for kids!
 
PGNCS
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RE: Speed Requests In Climb

Fri Oct 09, 2015 4:22 pm

Quoting atct (Reply 7):
(d) If the minimum safe airspeed for any particular operation is greater than the maximum speed prescribed in this section, the aircraft may be operated at that minimum speed.




So long story short, if you want a high speed climb for "minimum safe speed", It's legal. Just because you want to clean up, well, there is some debate on "Clean" means safe. An age old debate.

I appreciate your post. Since it is procedural to clean up the aircraft prior to reaching 10,000', we sometimes have to exceed 250K to do so. Having said that, when we do, I let the controller know so he or she can plan for it. I have never once had a problem in the US at least, it's just courtesy and common sense to communicate.
 
timz
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RE: Speed Requests In Climb

Fri Oct 09, 2015 6:26 pm

What's the difference between "Unless otherwise authorized by the Administrator" and "Unless otherwise authorized or required by ATC"?
 
thegman
Posts: 513
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RE: Speed Requests In Climb

Fri Oct 09, 2015 8:28 pm

Quoting PGNCS (Reply 8):
I appreciate your post. Since it is procedural to clean up the aircraft prior to reaching 10,000', we sometimes have to exceed 250K to do so. Having said that, when we do, I let the controller know so he or she can plan for it. I have never once had a problem in the US at least, it's just courtesy and common sense to communicate.

What type aircraft are we talking about that requires this?

Although I have not flown it over about 400k, the C17 can clean up around 220kts.
 
PGNCS
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RE: Speed Requests In Climb

Fri Oct 09, 2015 9:06 pm

Quoting thegman (Reply 10):
Quoting PGNCS (Reply 8):I appreciate your post. Since it is procedural to clean up the aircraft prior to reaching 10,000', we sometimes have to exceed 250K to do so. Having said that, when we do, I let the controller know so he or she can plan for it. I have never once had a problem in the US at least, it's just courtesy and common sense to communicate.
What type aircraft are we talking about that requires this?

LOTS of heavies including the MD-11, 747, some 767's, and even the MD-90 when heavy. None of these aircraft were designed for minimum approach speeds or landings on short or unimproved runways, so any comparison to the C-17 is tenuous at best.

For more information see page 67 from the March 1992 issue of "Flying":

MD-11%20maneuvering%20speed&f=false" target="_blank">http://books.google.com/books?id=6xQ...D-11%20maneuvering%20speed&f=false
 
Qantas744er
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RE: Speed Requests In Climb

Fri Oct 09, 2015 9:08 pm

Quoting thegman (Reply 10):
What type aircraft are we talking about that requires this?

777-300ER 351.5T MTOW Flaps up Maneuvering speed, 260+kts.

747-400 396T MTOW Flaps up Maneuvering speed, 280+kts.

Same goes for A340-600, A380 possibly and various other widebody commercial aircraft.
 
atct
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Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2001 6:42 am

RE: Speed Requests In Climb

Fri Oct 09, 2015 11:15 pm

Quoting thegman (Reply 10):
What type aircraft are we talking about that requires this?

The most common I see are the 744 and 748. MD11's and 777's occasionally. Always seems like Air China and China Southern want "high speed" on their triples. I never see any other carriers ask for it on the 777.
Trikes are for kids!
 
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zeke
Posts: 15932
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:42 pm

RE: Speed Requests In Climb

Fri Oct 09, 2015 11:59 pm

Quoting atct (Reply 7):
So long story short, if you want a high speed climb for "minimum safe speed", It's legal. Just because you want to clean up, well, there is some debate on "Clean" means safe. An age old debate.

The stall speed when clean for many aircraft when heavy could be above 250 kt. Flaps and slats were never intended for use for long periods of times, clean is used as less ice builds when there is less surface area. The fuel penalty with flaps extended is 120 %, slats extended 50 %, and slats and flaps are extended 150 %.

Quoting timz (Reply 9):
What's the difference between "Unless otherwise authorized by the Administrator" and "Unless otherwise authorized or required by ATC"?

The FAA publishes exceptions, like to the military, and has trials at some airports, and beyond 12 miles over water.

Quoting PGNCS (Reply 11):
LOTS of heavies including the MD-11, 747, some 767's, and even the MD-90 when heavy.

Add the A330/A340 there as well.
“Don't be a show-off. Never be too proud to turn back. There are old pilots and bold pilots, but no old, bold pilots.” E. Hamilton Lee, 1949
 
Viscount724
Posts: 19316
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:32 pm

RE: Speed Requests In Climb

Sat Oct 10, 2015 2:16 am

Quoting atct (Reply 13):
Always seems like Air China and China Southern want "high speed" on their triples. I never see any other carriers ask for it on the 777.

Very common on many 777 operators on longhauls from Canada. A few examples, all from the past week or two from Transport Canada daily occurrence reports. Also many other widebody types. There are dozens of these, many every day.

On takeoff from Montréal (CYUL), QC, a Qatar Airways Boeing 777 300 (A7BED/QTR764), from Montréal (CYUL), QC, to Doha (OTHH), Qatar, asked to fly at a speed greater than 250 kt under 10 000 ft. No impact on operations.

On departure from Montreal (CYUL), QC, an Air China Boeing 777 300 (CCA880) en route to Beijing (ZBAA), China, requested speed greater than 280 knots below 10,000 ft.

An EVA Airways Boeing 777 300 (EVA35) from Toronto, ON (CYYZ) to Taipei, Taiwan (RCTP) departed CYYZ Runway 33R and requested high speed in the climb below 10 000 ft.

A China Eastern Airlines Boeing 777 300 (B2021/ CES208) from Toronto, ON (CYYZ) to Shanghai, China (ZSPD) departed CYYZ Runway 23 and requested speed 265 kts below 10 000 ft.

An Etihad Airways Boeing 777 300 (ETD140) from Toronto, ON (CYYZ) to Abu Dhabi, UAE (OMAA) requested a speed greater than 250 kts in the climb.

A Saudi Arabian Airlines Boeing 777 300 (SVA060) from Toronto, ON (CYYZ) to Jeddah, Saudi Arabia (OEJN), after departure, requested climb at 270kts while below 10000ft. No operational impact.

A Pakistan International Airlines Boeing 777 200 (PIA784) from Toronto, ON (CYYZ) to Islamabad, Pakistan (OPRN) requested speed greater than 250 KTS in the climb.

An Air Canada Boeing 777 300 (ACA015) from Toronto, ON (CYYZ) to Hong Kong (VHHH) requested a speed greater than 250 knots in the climb.

An Air Canada Boeing 777 300 series (ACA005) from Toronto, ON (CYYZ) to Tokyo/ Haneda, Japan (RJTT) after departure requested high speed climb while below 10000ft. No operational impact.

An Air Canada Boeing 777-200LR (C-FNND/ ACA033) from Vancouver, BC (CYVR) to Sydney, Australia (YSSY) requested high speed climb below 10000 feet. No operational impact.

A Korean Air Lines Boeing 777 300 (KAL074) from Toronto, ON (CYYZ) to Seoul, South Korea (RKSI) requested a speed greater than 250 kts in the climb.

An Ethiopian Airlines Boeing 787-8 (ETH503) from Toronto, ON (CYYZ) to Addis Ababa, Ethiopia (HAAB) requested a speed greater than 250 KTS in the climb.

A KLM Royal Dutch Airlines Boeing 747 400 (KLM696) from Toronto, ON (CYYZ) to Amsterdam, Netherlands (EHAM) requested a speed greater than 250 KTS in the climb.

A KLM Royal Dutch Airlines Airbus A330-200 (PHAOL/KLM32) from Toronto, ON (CYYZ) to Amsterdam, Netherlands (EHAM) requested high speed climb below 10 000 feet.

A Lufthansa Boeing 747 400 (DABVU/ DLH471) from Toronto, ON (CYYZ) to Frankfurt, Germany (EDDF) departed CYYZ Runway 06L and requested speed 265 kts in the climb below 10000 ft.

An Air Canada Boeing 787-9 (C-FNOE/ ACA001) from Toronto, ON (CYYZ) to Tokyo/ Narita, Japan (RJAA) departed CYYZ Runway 05 and requested high speed in the climb below 10000'.

An Air Canada Boeing 767 300 (ACA810) from Toronto, ON (CYYZ) to Istanbul, Turkey (LTBA) requested a speed above 250K below 10 000 ft.

An Air Canada Boeing 767 300 (ACA092) from Toronto, ON (CYYZ) to Santiago, Chile (SCEL) requested speed greater than 250 KTS in the climb.

A Jet Airways Airbus A330-300 (JAI229) from Toronto, ON (CYYZ) to Brussels, Belgium (EBBR) requested a speed greater than 250 knots in the climb.
 
thepinkmachine
Posts: 459
Joined: Tue Apr 28, 2015 4:43 pm

RE: Speed Requests In Climb

Sat Oct 10, 2015 3:08 pm

I wonder why US/Canada make so much fuss about [email protected] It seems a big issue there if you exceed it. In Europe we routinely fly faster than that. Not only due to min clean speed, but also for economy. Never heard of any problems because of it. Heck, in class C airspace you don't even have to request it!
"Tell my wife I am trawling Atlantis - and I still have my hands on the wheel…"
 
DiamondFlyer
Posts: 3499
Joined: Wed Oct 29, 2008 11:50 pm

RE: Speed Requests In Climb

Sat Oct 10, 2015 4:11 pm

Quoting thepinkmachine (Reply 16):

I wonder why US/Canada make so much fuss about [email protected]

This new thing called regulations, that specifically state you can't do more than 250 below 10,000, unless you need to for safety reasons. It's very hard to see light aircraft, which generally operate below 10,000 ft. If planes could go as fast as they could, the closure rate would be crazy.

-DiamondFlyer
From my cold, dead hands
 
rlwynn
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Joined: Fri Dec 15, 2000 3:35 am

RE: Speed Requests In Climb

Sat Oct 10, 2015 6:47 pm

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 17):
This new thing called regulations, that specifically state you can't do more than 250 below 10,000, unless you need to for safety reasons. It's very hard to see light aircraft, which generally operate below 10,000 ft. If planes could go as fast as they could, the closure rate would be crazy.

I do not hink that is a valid reason. You see here in western Garmany every single day planes between 5,000 and 10,000ft at 300+ knots. And more on descent than climb.
I can drive faster than you
 
atct
Posts: 2472
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2001 6:42 am

RE: Speed Requests In Climb

Sat Oct 10, 2015 7:06 pm

Quoting rlwynn (Reply 18):
I do not hink that is a valid reason. You see here in western Garmany every single day planes between 5,000 and 10,000ft at 300+ knots. And more on descent than climb.

The amount of light aircraft in germany pales in comparison to Alaska, let alone the rest of the US. The reason is for closure rates and see and avoid.

Quoting zeke (Reply 14):
The stall speed when clean for many aircraft when heavy could be above 250 kt. Flaps and slats were never intended for use for long periods of times, clean is used as less ice builds when there is less surface area. The fuel penalty with flaps extended is 120 %, slats extended 50 %, and slats and flaps are extended 150 %.

True, but is 8 minutes a "long period of time"? Most heavies I see are climbing at 2,000fpm (give or take), so with a climb to 10,000 or above, that is 5 minutes (or less). I do concede on the icing, and in my current location, consider myself an ATC expert on that   Increased Fuel Burn, well that's the cost of doing business. I am not here to save people money. I am here to follow my regulations and provide for the Safe, Orderly, and Expeditious flow of air traffic (in that order).

Long story short, I've probably denied a high speed request 3 or 4 times in my 10 years as an ATC, out of 1,000+ requests.

atct
Trikes are for kids!
 
DiamondFlyer
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RE: Speed Requests In Climb

Sun Oct 11, 2015 3:24 am

Quoting rlwynn (Reply 18):
I do not hink that is a valid reason. You see here in western Garmany every single day planes between 5,000 and 10,000ft at 300+ knots. And more on descent than climb.

Is very much is. There are vast chunks of airspace in the United States where you legally have no obligation to be talking to ATC. Thus, limiting planes to 250 knots at lower altitudes helps to keep things somewhat visible.

-DiamondFlyer
From my cold, dead hands
 
musapapaya
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RE: Speed Requests In Climb

Sun Oct 11, 2015 1:58 pm

Quoting rlwynn (Reply 18):
I do not hink that is a valid reason. You see here in western Garmany every single day planes between 5,000 and 10,000ft at 300+ knots. And more on descent than climb.

I remember seeing DVD's from pilotseye.tv where crew request 'high speed' from the ATC on approach to FRA. The request was granted.

Regulations do need to be fit for purpose.
 
FlyHossD
Posts: 2176
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RE: Speed Requests In Climb

Mon Oct 12, 2015 4:54 pm

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 17):
This new thing called regulations, that specifically state you can't do more than 250 below 10,000, unless you need to for safety reasons. It's very hard to see light aircraft, which generally operate below 10,000 ft. If planes could go as fast as they could, the closure rate would be crazy.

IAH ran a multi-year test program allowing climbs at greater than 250 kts (for all aircraft so capable). As I recall, the test was successful, but not implemented long term (I don't know why).

I was based at IAH during most of that time and do not recall any incidents. However, it was my practice to not exceed 250 until above "Indian territory" - which is to say above the altitude of the Piper Cherokees, etc. I used 5,500' as the nominal top altitude of the majority of the general aviation traffic, but also cross checked the TCAS often.
My statements do not represent my former employer or my current employer and are my opinions only.
 
a320fan
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RE: Speed Requests In Climb

Tue Oct 13, 2015 4:11 am

250 to 10 will result in higher pitch attitude which would make seeing any possible conflicts harder would it not.
A319, A320, A321, A330-200, A350-900, A380, 737-700, 737-800, 777-200ER, 777-300, 777-300ER, 787-8, Q300, Q400
 
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saleya22r
Posts: 180
Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2007 2:13 am

RE: Speed Requests In Climb

Tue Oct 13, 2015 10:12 pm

Quoting thepinkmachine (Reply 16):

In Europe the transition level is much lower than in the US, too. When I used to have my PPL (a long time ago) we usually flew at 2000-2500 ft QNH with Cessnas and Pipers. During that time, the transition level in Finland was only 3000 ft, and according to UK's CAA the transition level today varies between 3000-6000 ft today while in Germany it is generally 5000 ft. So the traffic not controlled by the ATC generally stays lower on this side of the pond right? Correct me if I'm wrong!
 
aeropix
Posts: 274
Joined: Mon Jun 06, 2005 2:08 pm

RE: Speed Requests In Climb

Tue Oct 27, 2015 5:38 pm

Quoting thepinkmachine (Reply 16):
I wonder why US/Canada make so much fuss about [email protected]

In 1960 a United DC8 and TWA Connie collided while on approach to New York. Part of the blame was the high speeds at low altitude, the DC8 was apparently going 400kts below 10,000 feet. In the aftermath of the crash a speed limit of 250kt below 10,000 feet was established to normalize traffic flows in the era where jet and prop traffic were routinely mixed.

Cheers.
 
PITrules
Posts: 2109
Joined: Fri Jun 23, 2000 11:27 am

RE: Speed Requests In Climb

Tue Oct 27, 2015 11:39 pm

Quoting Moose135 (Reply 1):
In the US, you can request a higher airspeed below 10K if necessary for operation reasons, such as needing a higher airspeed to climb because of higher weight.

ATC approval is not required if the minimum safe airspeed is greater than 250 kts.

Quoting thepinkmachine (Reply 16):
I wonder why US/Canada make so much fuss about [email protected]

In addition to the closure rates already mentioned, bird strike damage is another concern.
FLYi
 
trnswrld
Posts: 1392
Joined: Sat May 22, 1999 2:19 am

RE: Speed Requests In Climb

Wed Oct 28, 2015 1:12 am

Quoting aeropix (Reply 25):

In 1960 a United DC8 and TWA Connie collided while on approach to New York. Part of the blame was the high speeds at low altitude, the DC8 was apparently going 400kts below 10,000 feet. In the aftermath of the crash a speed limit of 250kt below 10,000 feet was established to normalize traffic flows in the era where jet and prop traffic were routinely mixed.

You might be right, but I swear the speed restriction below 10 came from a different TWA accident that involved a DC9-10 that was descending at very high speed and collided with a general aviation single engine aircraft. Supposedly they were going so fast they said seeing and avoiding the light aircraft would have been impossible.
Here I just looked it up, it's TWA flight 553:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/TWA_Flight_553
 
Max Q
Posts: 8904
Joined: Wed May 09, 2001 12:40 pm

RE: Speed Requests In Climb

Wed Oct 28, 2015 9:46 am

Its not just a matter of being at or above clean speed, it is more economical to operate
at econ speed during the climb and as early as you can do so it will save fuel and time.



250 Knots is not the economical climb speed for most large jet transports, that varies between
290-340 knots depending on weight so if you can get ATC approval its always better to
accelerate to this speed as soon as you can.
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.


GGg
 
timz
Posts: 6581
Joined: Fri Sep 17, 1999 7:43 am

RE: Speed Requests In Climb

Wed Oct 28, 2015 5:16 pm

Quoting aeropix (Reply 25):
In the aftermath of the [1960] crash a speed limit of 250kt below 10,000 feet was established

Never have learned what the actual rule was circa 1962, but it wasn't a flat 250-below-10000 like now.
 
Viscount724
Posts: 19316
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:32 pm

RE: Speed Requests In Climb

Thu Oct 29, 2015 2:54 am

Quoting timz (Reply 29):
Quoting aeropix (Reply 25):
In the aftermath of the [1960] crash a speed limit of 250kt below 10,000 feet was established

Never have learned what the actual rule was circa 1962, but it wasn't a flat 250-below-10000 like now.

Following is an excerpt from the 1960 United/TWA collision accident report listing various changes the FAA had made during the course of the investigation:

6. The Agency has issued a speed rule which prohibits aircraft from exceeding 250 knots when within 30 nautical miles of a destination airport and below 10,000, except where the safety requirement of tactical military jets dictates a higher minimum speed, which then applies to these aircraft.

Complete accident report:
http://specialcollection.dotlibrary....RPLANEACCIDENTS&query=(select+719)

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