badgervor
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777/787 Crews Flying Both?

Thu Oct 22, 2015 3:38 pm

Since the 787 was designed to allow crews to hold a dual type rating on both aircraft, I was wondering if any airlines' pilots are currently flying both types like with the 75/76? Also, maybe a question for the tech/ops forum but in order for two planes to have a common type rating, what systems are required to be the same? Based solely on pictures, they don't look very similar unlike the 75/76 that look identical. Hope this makes sense. Thanks
 
Thai77w
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RE: 777/787 Crews Flying Both?

Thu Oct 22, 2015 4:03 pm

Thai (TG) pilots on 787 are rated on 777 and fly both. There's a program to get more 777 pilots rates on 787 too.
Aircraft types I've been on: PA31,Q300,AT75,AT76,717,733,738,739ER,763,772,77E,773,77W,788,789,744,319,320,332,333,346,359,380
 
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ssteve
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RE: 777/787 Crews Flying Both?

Thu Oct 22, 2015 6:12 pm

Quoting badgervor (Thread starter):
Based solely on pictures, they don't look very similar unlike the 75/76 that look identical.

You mean the controls, not the airframe, right?
 
badgervor
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RE: 777/787 Crews Flying Both?

Thu Oct 22, 2015 7:02 pm

Quoting SSTeve (Reply 2):
You mean the controls, not the airframe, right?

Yes definitely not the airframe  
 
BravoOne
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RE: 777/787 Crews Flying Both?

Thu Oct 22, 2015 8:28 pm

Because it's a FBW aircraft the engineers could have made if fly like a 737-800 had they wanted. An oversimplification I realize but you get the idea. Boeing Flight Training crews are dual qualified and actively fly both aircraft but as for an airline like say UAL, I would imagine there are contract hurdles still in the way at this hour?
 
BoeingGuy
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RE: 777/787 Crews Flying Both?

Thu Oct 22, 2015 10:07 pm

Quoting BravoOne (Reply 4):
Boeing Flight Training crews are dual qualified and actively fly both aircraft but as for an airline like say UAL, I would imagine there are contract hurdles still in the way at this hour?

Many Boeing pilots are rated on all or most Boeing models and regularly fly multiple models. It would not be unheard of for a Boeing pilot to, say, fly a 737, FedEx 767, 747-8, 777, 787 and KC-46 within a span of a few months.
 
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7BOEING7
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RE: 777/787 Crews Flying Both?

Thu Oct 22, 2015 10:40 pm

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 5):
Many Boeing pilots are rated on all or most Boeing models and regularly fly multiple models. It would not be unheard of for a Boeing pilot to, say, fly a 737, FedEx 767, 747-8, 777, 787 and KC-46 within a span of a few months.

Not even a few months -- although the low production rate makes getting a flight on a 767 or 747 a little harder -- anybody that is rated in the 737/777/787 probably flies all three in any given week on a regular basis and quite possibly any two of the three on the same day.

Quoting badgervor (Thread starter):
Based solely on pictures, they don't look very similar unlike the 75/76 that look identical.

Looks can be deceiving. Initially the 757 & 767 were to be in a combined Production Test Document (which defines the tests required by the FAA to be completed on every airplane) but a single document tended to highlight the system differences of which there are many, so individual documents were published by Boeing.
 
BravoOne
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RE: 777/787 Crews Flying Both?

Thu Oct 22, 2015 11:10 pm

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 5):
Many Boeing pilots are rated on all or most Boeing models and regularly fly multiple models. It would not be unheard of for a Boeing pilot to, say, fly a 737, FedEx 767, 747-8, 777, 787 and KC-46 within a span of a few months.

Don't disagree with you statement generally speaking unless you are in flight test and evaluation you're not likely to be qualified on more than two aircraft. If you were qualified on all the above aircraft you would spend a copious amount of time in recurrent training events and thus take you away from tasks you were hired for. Since the bulk of RC training is done in MIA that only exacerbates the bottom line.

I think the original question was regarding to airline ops. and at this hour I can't point to one. Maybe Lan Chile??
 
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7BOEING7
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RE: 777/787 Crews Flying Both?

Thu Oct 22, 2015 11:34 pm

Quoting BravoOne (Reply 7):
If you were qualified on all the above aircraft you would spend a copious amount of time in recurrent training events and thus take you away from tasks you were hired for.

Unless things have changed the only recurrent training required for Experimental/Production flight test pilots is three days every two years in each airplane you're rated in -- that's six days a year, let's call it 10 to include travel to and from MIA to be current in all five airplanes (737/747/767/777/787) -- not all that copious.
 
BravoOne
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RE: 777/787 Crews Flying Both?

Thu Oct 22, 2015 11:40 pm

Quoting 7BOEING7 (Reply 8):
Unless things have changed the only recurrent training required for Experimental/Production flight test pilots is three days every two years in each airplane you're rated in -- that's six days a year, let's call it 10 to include travel to and from MIA to be current in all five airplanes (737/747/767/777/787) -- not all that copious.

Yea and if I was an astronaut my recurrent would be every two years  The original post was regarding airlines I never get that close to the Sky Gods unless they are asking me to park their car.
 
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RE: 777/787 Crews Flying Both?

Fri Oct 23, 2015 8:25 am

Yes, Boeing F Test Pilots are a very different kettle of fish.


While theoretically the Triple 7 and the 787 have the same type rating there is a differences course and they are
quite unique aircraft systems wise.


Much different to the 757 / 767 which are quite similar.


I know UA doesn't mix pilots across fleets and I don't think AA does either, not sure about the rest of the world.
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zeke
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RE: 777/787 Crews Flying Both?

Fri Oct 23, 2015 11:14 am

Quoting Max Q (Reply 10):

The 777 and 787 are not the same type rating according to the FAA

http://registry.faa.gov/TypeRatings/
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Polot
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RE: 777/787 Crews Flying Both?

Fri Oct 23, 2015 1:01 pm

Quoting zeke (Reply 11):
The 777 and 787 are not the same type rating according to the FAA

Yes, they have a common type rating which is a little different. If you are current and qualified on the 777 you can get a 787 type rating with just a 787 difference course and a 787 partial proficiency check, which takes something like 5 days. At the time of the 787's introduction only 777 -> 787 was approved by the FAA. Not sure if a 787 -> 777 course has been approved since then.

The EASA gives the 777/787 a single license endorsement, just requiring some differences training course I believe.

Once you have it proficiency checks can be done in either the 777 or 787, with the differences covered.

[Edited 2015-10-23 06:05:12]
 
BravoOne
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RE: 777/787 Crews Flying Both?

Fri Oct 23, 2015 1:49 pm

Quoting Polot (Reply 12):

Yes, they have a common type rating which is a little different.

Most of your statement is correct but here in the US they are separate type ratings and other than a hybrid course that Boeing did as a proof of concept no one is doing any five day differences courses.
 
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zeke
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RE: 777/787 Crews Flying Both?

Fri Oct 23, 2015 1:51 pm

Quoting Polot (Reply 12):
Yes, they have a common type rating which is a little different.

No the 787 and 777 are different type ratings, the type ratings are "B-777" and the other is "B-787", it is unlike the 75/76 which has a common type rating, and it is designated as "B-757,B-767". Have a look at the link I provided.

In Europe it is different, EASA declared the 787 to be a 777 variant for crew licensing purposes, the licence endorsement is "B777/787" like the "B757/767", however "type rating" is an FAA term, and I provided the FAA reference.
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Polot
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RE: 777/787 Crews Flying Both?

Fri Oct 23, 2015 4:05 pm

Quoting BravoOne (Reply 13):
Most of your statement is correct but here in the US they are separate type ratings and other than a hybrid course that Boeing did as a proof of concept no one is doing any five day differences courses.
Quoting zeke (Reply 14):
No the 787 and 777 are different type ratings, the type ratings are "B-777" and the other is "B-787", it is unlike the 75/76 which has a common type rating, and it is designated as "B-757,B-767". Have a look at the link I provided.

I think there is a terminology issue here. The official definition of "common type rating" is (page 7 of pdf):

"Common Type Rating. Common type rating is a term used in FSB reports to describe a relationship between type ratings for aircraft with different TCs that have no greater than level D training differences. The type rating for a certificated aircraft can be determined to be related to another type rating of another certificated aircraft of the same make procided the aircraft meet the criteria of the T1 (equivalence) or the T2 (handling characteristics) and T3 (core pilot skills with no greater than level D differences)."(emphasis mine)

Now back in 2011 the FAA ruled the 787 could have a common rating with the 777, although they could have since changed their mind.

I'm not saying they have the same type certificate, they do not. But common type rating is not the same thing. I do note, for example, that according to your definition and that FAA sheet the A330/A350 do not have a "common type rating", despite Airbus's claims to the contrary. I also note that applying your definitions not even the A330 and A340 have a common type rating.

Now I suppose whether the US airlines actually just do a difference course for their 787 pilots or do all the stuff necessary to obtain a new TC is technically up to them

Edit in looking around I found this http://fsims.faa.gov/PICDetail.aspx?docId=FSB%20B-787 last updated last year for the 787-9 variant, in which it says (under PILOT TYPE RATING REQUIREMENTS):2.1 Type Rating. The Boeing 787 is designated B-787. In accordance with the provisions of FAA Order 8900.1 and AC 120-53B, the B-777 and B-787 are assigned a common pilot type rating.

I'm not sure what the difference is with the 757/767 and others. Maybe the FAA changed its mind on how to deal with common type ratings and the 757/767 (and older like the 707/720) were grandfathered in.


[Edited 2015-10-23 09:06:41]

[Edited 2015-10-23 09:08:43]

[Edited 2015-10-23 09:49:15]
 
BravoOne
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RE: 777/787 Crews Flying Both?

Fri Oct 23, 2015 4:28 pm

DC6/DC7, B707/720, B757/767 Common Type ratings

Boeing 787, Boeing 777 are separate type ratings and shown as such on the FAA Airman certificate.

I'm not going to say anymore regarding this as it's a very sensitive subject within Boeing. I remain clueless how Airbus handles these issues
 
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zeke
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RE: 777/787 Crews Flying Both?

Fri Oct 23, 2015 4:43 pm

Quoting Polot (Reply 15):
I think there is a terminology issue here. The official definition of "common type rating" is (page 7 of pdf):

No, that is not what that paragraph says. The 787 and 777 are separate type ratings on the certificate. You cannot fly a 777 if you only have 787 on your licence. Unlike the 75/76, where you have B-757/767 on you licence and you can technicality fly either.

Quoting Polot (Reply 15):
I do note, for example, that according to your definition and that FAA sheet the A330/A350 do not have a "common type rating", despite Airbus's claims to the contrary.

That is correct, they are not a common type rating with the FAA, the A350 is its own rating. For EASA, it is a common A330/A350 licence endorsement much like the 777/787. Where I work it is a common P1 A330/A350 rating. Our regulator will not permit A330/A340/A350 MFF.

Quoting Polot (Reply 15):
I also note that applying your definitions not even the A330 and A340 have a common type rating.

That is correct, never has been, and I have flown the A333/A343/A346 all at the same time. You can fly any combination of the Airbus FBW family, it is not a common type rating, it is mixed fleet flying. You maintain multiple type ratings in parallel.

Quoting BravoOne (Reply 16):
I'm not going to say anymore regarding this as it's a very sensitive subject within Boeing.

IFALPA actually does not support mixed fleet flying, as far as I am aware US carriers do not do it on the 777 and 787.

Quoting BravoOne (Reply 16):
I remain clueless how Airbus handles these issues

On the EASA TCDS it actually states it is a common rating with the A330 for cabin crew and pilots. Most countries, except for the USA will accept the EASA TCDS.
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Polot
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RE: 777/787 Crews Flying Both?

Fri Oct 23, 2015 4:58 pm

Quoting zeke (Reply 17):
No, that is not what that paragraph says. The 787 and 777 are separate type ratings on the certificate. You cannot fly a 777 if you only have 787 on your licence. Unlike the 75/76, where you have B-757/767 on you licence and you can technicality fly either.

Then why does the FAA say:
"2.1 Type Rating. The Boeing 787 is designated B-787. In accordance with the provisions of FAA Order 8900.1 and AC 120-53B, the B-777 and B-787 are assigned a common pilot type rating." (under 2. PILOT TYPE RATING REQUIREMENTS)?

Quoting zeke (Reply 17):
That is correct, they are not a common type rating with the FAA, the A350 is its own rating. For EASA, it is a common A330/A350 licence endorsement much like the 777/787. Where I work it is a common P1 A330/A350 rating. Our regulator will not permit A330/A340/A350 MFF.

But Airbus uses the term Common Type Rating (note they capitalized it), and after all:

Quoting zeke (Reply 14):
however "type rating" is an FAA term, and I provided the FAA reference.
From the FAA:
"2.1 Type Rating: The Airbus A350 type rating designation recommendation is “A-350”. In accordance with the provisions of Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) Order 8900.1, Flight Standards Information Management System (FSIMS), and AC 120-53, the A330 and A350 aircraft are identified as having common type ratings."
 
Maybe common type rating has multiple meanings?

Note I am NOT disputing that they are separate type ratings. I am suggesting that maybe, just maybe, two different type ratings can also be designated as being in common.

The 757/767 was almost 35 years ago. It is entirely possible the FAA has changed how they handle cases like this and the 757/767 (and older examples like the 707/720) were grandfathered in. Would they actually be on the same type rating if released today? Or two different, but common, ratings?

[Edited 2015-10-23 09:59:28]

[Edited 2015-10-23 10:20:57]
 
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zeke
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RE: 777/787 Crews Flying Both?

Fri Oct 23, 2015 5:29 pm

Quoting Polot (Reply 18):
Then why does the FAA say:
"2.1 Type Rating. The Boeing 787 is designated B-787. In accordance with the provisions of FAA Order 8900.1 and AC 120-53B, the B-777 and B-787 are assigned a common pilot type rating." (under 2. PILOT TYPE RATING REQUIREMENTS)?

Go and have a look at 8900.1 which I linked above, and myself and others have told you a number a times now that it is not a common type rating on a pilots certificate. Ask any UA pilot on the 787 if they have a common rating with the 777, they will tell you no.The don't even fly the 777/787 as a mixed fleet.

Quoting Polot (Reply 18):
But Airbus uses the term Common Type Rating (note they capitalized it), and after all:

Airbus does not make that claim with regard to the FAA, what EASA states in the TCDS

"Pilot Type Rating: The licence endorsement for the A350-900 series aircraft is "A330/A350". The A350-900 and the A330 series aircraft are variants of the same type of aircraft."

The FAA does not have the same words in their TCDS.

Quoting Polot (Reply 18):
Maybe common type rating has multiple meanings?

No, in the FAA la la land, it is mixed fleet flying (maintaining two type ratings is parallel), not a common type, and they spell out how simulator and line checks are to be carried out to maintain both type ratings. Common type would mean a landing on one type cover the other, or a PC on one type cover the other. That is not true for the 787 and 777.

Quoting Polot (Reply 18):
I am suggesting that maybe, just maybe, two different type ratings can also be designated as being in common.

No, it is obvious you don't have a pilots certificate. If a job is advertised saying a FAA certificate with 787 rating, and you have a FAA certificate with 777 on it, you don't qualify.
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7BOEING7
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RE: 777/787 Crews Flying Both?

Fri Oct 23, 2015 5:40 pm

Quoting zeke (Reply 17):
Unlike the 75/76, where you have B-757/767 on you licence and you can technicality fly either.

Things may have changed since I received my last rating but having been rated initially in a 757 and only processing paperwork to get the 767 added this is what it looks like on my license:
 
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Polot
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RE: 777/787 Crews Flying Both?

Fri Oct 23, 2015 5:56 pm

Quoting zeke (Reply 19):
Go and have a look at 8900.1 which I linked above, and myself and others have told you a number a times now that it is not a common type rating on a pilots certificate. Ask any UA pilot on the 787 if they have a common rating with the 777, they will tell you no.The don't even fly the 777/787 as a mixed fleet.

Then there is obviously a difference in interpretation of the term "common type rating" in the professional world and the regulatory world.


Quoting zeke (Reply 19):
Airbus does not make that claim with regard to the FAA, what EASA states in the TCDS

They use the term "Common Type Rating" in their press release multiple times. They even directly mention the US:
"A notable factor in achieving the A350 XWB/A330 Common Type Rating is the similarity in handling qualities between the two fly-by-wire jetliners, as recently verified by pilots representing the European and U.S. civil aviation authorities who flew both aircraft."

The FAA uses the exact same term (they even italicize it!) in the document I linked to. You yourself in this very thread said "type rating" is an FAA term, so you are only concerned with FAA references.

Quoting zeke (Reply 19):
Common type would mean a landing on one type cover the other, or a PC on one type cover the other. That is not true for the 787 and 777.

Apparently common type rating in FAA la la land means something different than what you think it means.

Quoting zeke (Reply 19):
No, it is obvious you don't have a pilots certificate. If a job is advertised saying a FAA certificate with 787 rating, and you have a FAA certificate with 777 on it, you don't qualify.

I never claimed that just getting a 787 rating means you can go and hop on and fly a 777.

I just claimed that the 787 has a common type rating with the 777 (which the FAA agrees with me according to the documents I posted) and that means that it is easier to obtain a 787 rating if you have a current 777 rating, that it is easier to maintain dual 777/787 ratings, and that at the 787 introduction at least the reverse was not allowed. That has ramifications on fleet decisions, as airlines can move pilots from the 777 to the 787 easier than say a A330 to 787.

Common type rating may mean something different in pilot parlance than regulatory jargon, but that doesn't automatically make what I am saying wrong.
 
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zeke
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RE: 777/787 Crews Flying Both?

Fri Oct 23, 2015 6:15 pm

Quoting 7BOEING7 (Reply 20):
Things may have changed since I received my last rating but having been rated initially in a 757 and only processing paperwork to get the 767 added this is what it looks like on my license:

8900.1 does not have a B-757 type rating.

Quoting Polot (Reply 21):
Then there is obviously a difference in interpretation of the term "common type rating" in the professional world and the regulatory world.

No, see 8900.1.

Quoting Polot (Reply 21):
The FAA uses the exact same term (they even italicize it!) in the document I linked to.

However that is not a regulatory document, the regulatory documents are 8900.1 and the TCDS. A FSB report has no bearing as to what the FAA will put on a pilots certificate. The FSB report tells operators how crew can maintain parallel ratings, or train from one rating to another.

Quoting Polot (Reply 21):
Apparently common type rating in FAA la la land means something different than what you think it means.

Simple question, do you have a FAA ATP ?, do you have a FAA common type rating ? have you operated mixed fleet flying ?

I have a yes to all 3, and I guess you are a no to all 3.

Quoting Polot (Reply 21):
I just claimed that the 787 has a common type rating with the 777

Show me where it says that in 8900.1.
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Polot
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RE: 777/787 Crews Flying Both?

Fri Oct 23, 2015 6:23 pm

Quoting zeke (Reply 22):
8900.1 does not have a B-757 type rating.

So you are saying 7BOEING7's license is fabricated?

Quoting zeke (Reply 22):
However that is not a regulatory document, the regulatory documents are 8900.1 and the TCDS. A FSB report has no bearing as to what the FAA will put on a pilots certificate. The FSB report tells operators how crew can maintain parallel ratings, or train from one rating to another.

But AC 120-53B (which is my first link in reply 15) is. I'll copy and paste again straight from the document:
"Common Type Rating. Common type rating is a term used in FSB reports to describe a relationship between type ratings for aircraft with different TCs that have no greater than level D training differences. The type rating for a certificated aircraft can be determined to be related to another type rating of another certificated aircraft of the same make procided the aircraft meet the criteria of the T1 (equivalence) or the T2 (handling characteristics) and T3 (core pilot skills with no greater than level D differences)."

Why is it ok for the FSB to use that term but not me?

Quoting zeke (Reply 22):
Show me where it says that in 8900.1.

You really don't seem to be understanding that I am suggesting that having a common type rating and the same type rating are not the same thing.

It should be very obvious from this discussion that different type ratings are not different equally. There has to be some way to describe the difference between a 777 and 787 rating, and a 777 and A330 rating. Would me saying the 777 and 787 have different type ratings, but it is not as dramatic of a difference between the two in obtaining/maintaining the rating as the 777 and A330 make you feel better  ?

You keep on bringing up 8900.1. Show me where in that document it says the 757 and 767 have a common type rating, using that terminology. All it does is list the 757/767 together. The word common does not even appear in that document. In fact you can find things like this from Boeing: "By offering information displays very much like those on the 757 and 767, the 767-400ER retains the same type rating with current-generation 767 airplanes and a common type rating with current-generation 757 airplanes. This display format is called electronic flight instrument system/map and is a reproduction of flight deck displays and instruments on the new flat-panel displays. "


[Edited 2015-10-23 11:30:44]

[Edited 2015-10-23 11:30:58]

[Edited 2015-10-23 11:44:02]

[Edited 2015-10-23 11:44:45]
 
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zeke
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RE: 777/787 Crews Flying Both?

Fri Oct 23, 2015 6:51 pm

Quoting Polot (Reply 23):
So you are saying 7BOEING7's license is fabricated?

Read before typing, 8900.1 states the type rating shall be "B-757, B-767" which is exactly what is on their licence. There is no singular "B-757" rating in 8900.1.

Quoting Polot (Reply 23):
AC 120-53B

"AC" means advisory circular, it is not a regulation.

Quoting Polot (Reply 23):
You really don't seem to be understanding that I am suggesting that having a common type rating and the same type rating are not the same thing.

I understand it very well, and I have to monitor my recency on different types, and jump back in the sim to get current again to maintain MFF. With a CTR, recency on one type counts for recency on the other type. We are EASA based, so a landing on the A340 does not count to my A330 recency (MFF), however a landing on the A350 will count for an A330 landing (CTR). Our regulator will only permit us to either MFF A330/A340 or CTR A330/A350.

Quoting Polot (Reply 23):
There has to be some way to describe the difference between a 777 and 787 rating, and a 777 and A330 rating.

That is 8900.1
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Polot
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RE: 777/787 Crews Flying Both?

Fri Oct 23, 2015 7:02 pm

Quoting zeke (Reply 24):
Read before typing, 8900.1 states the type rating shall be "B-757, B-767" which is exactly what is on their licence. There is no singular "B-757" rating in 8900.1.

But 7BOEING7's license says otherwise. So you are saying it is fabricated.

Quoting zeke (Reply 24):
That is 8900.1

Where specifically does it say how to describe differences? The document you keep on linking to is just a list of different type ratings. I am not disputing that they have different type ratings.

Do you recognize that it is easier to move from a 777 to a 787 rating, and a A330 to a A350 rating, then a A330 to 777 rating? If so how does that document you linked to tell me that.
 
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zeke
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RE: 777/787 Crews Flying Both?

Fri Oct 23, 2015 7:23 pm

Quoting Polot (Reply 25):
But 7BOEING7's license says otherwise. So you are saying it is fabricated.

No it does not, it clearly states "B-757, B-767"

Quoting Polot (Reply 25):
Where specifically does it say how to describe differences?

8900.1 is a long document, it is more than just the type rating table. If you had a certificate you would know that, I keep forgetting I am conversing with someone without a certificate. 8900.1 airman certification would be a good start.

Quoting Polot (Reply 25):
I am not disputing that they have different type ratings.

How many times have you stated above they have common type ratings ?

BTW it is very difficult to keep of track of this thread as you edit and change you posts after I have refuted what you previously posted. Going back to change the content of your post after I have already replied just makes you look silly.
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Polot
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RE: 777/787 Crews Flying Both?

Fri Oct 23, 2015 8:02 pm

Quoting zeke (Reply 26):
No it does not, it clearly states "B-757, B-767"

Well technically it states B-757; B-767; etc

Quoting zeke (Reply 26):
8900.1 is a long document, it is more than just the type rating table. If you had a certificate you would know that, I keep forgetting I am conversing with someone without a certificate. 8900.1 airman certification would be a good start.

I'm aware. I'm not reading through 17 volumes with who knows how many chapters and sub sections. I'm asking for you to provide a specific text to back up your claims.

Quoting zeke (Reply 26):
How many times have you stated above they have common type ratings ?

Again, it comes down to terminology. I am not saying common = same. Where I live insects are common. That doesn't mean all the insects where I live are the same.

Quoting zeke (Reply 26):
BTW it is very difficult to keep of track of this thread as you edit and change you posts after I have refuted what you previously posted. Going back to change the content of your post after I have already replied just makes you look silly.

The times are included in the edits...only one post (15) was edited after you replied. All my edits have been either to fix mistakes with the links, grammar, or to add additional information to try and clarify my point. I have not gone back and erased anything that I previously wrote, you can see that by comparing the quotes in your post to my post.
 
BravoOne
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RE: 777/787 Crews Flying Both?

Fri Oct 23, 2015 8:05 pm

Here is how it's suppose to work assuming you already have a 777 rating. You do a differences course, which involves classroom or self administered CBT, plus xx number of hours in the FTD and then a couple of rides including a check ride. I think UALs proposed training requires eighteen days but it's been awhile since I have seen it. After all of that you get your new 787type rating. Boeing had a hybrid 5 day course for existing 777 pilots and instructors that the FAA monitored and finally signed off on. Not meant for nor accepted buy any airline that I know of.

End of story...
 
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7BOEING7
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RE: 777/787 Crews Flying Both?

Fri Oct 23, 2015 8:11 pm

Quoting zeke (Reply 26):
No it does not, it clearly states "B-757, B-767"

Not exactly, the various types are all separated by semi-colons so it does give the appearance of being separate ratings like all the rest.
 
BravoOne
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RE: 777/787 Crews Flying Both?

Fri Oct 23, 2015 9:12 pm

Just out of curiosity Polt do you have a type rating in either the 777 or 787 or that matter, any Boeing or Airbus aircraft?
 
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Polot
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RE: 777/787 Crews Flying Both?

Fri Oct 23, 2015 9:30 pm

Quoting BravoOne (Reply 30):

Nope, just trying to nail proper terminology down because there are clearly inconsistencies across the industry. (Airbus/Boeing terminology, pilot jargon, FSB reports, what may or may not be in 8900.1)
 
BravoOne
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RE: 777/787 Crews Flying Both?

Fri Oct 23, 2015 9:37 pm

I think the other poster made it pretty clear how this works and I hope info was help as well. 747-8 has some issues as well but perhaps better defined answers.
 
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7BOEING7
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RE: 777/787 Crews Flying Both?

Fri Oct 23, 2015 10:13 pm

Quoting BravoOne (Reply 32):
747-8 has some issues as well but perhaps better defined answers.

I don't find it listed in the link above (Reply 11), unless it's hidden somewhere. What's up?
 
BravoOne
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RE: 777/787 Crews Flying Both?

Fri Oct 23, 2015 10:45 pm

It's an EASA issue where they need to create a type rating course for pilots who have no previous 747-400 backgrounds. Some of the 747-8 crews have no previous 747-400 experience and at this hour there is no stand alone -8 course available to train under. EASA and Boeing are working it out but it's been a little painful at times.

As you probably know all the previous 747-8 operators have previous -400 backgrounds thus making it a fairly quick differences course all that was required to get -8 qualified. In the USA if you wanted to get -8 qualified from scratch you would do the -400 course and then do differences.
 
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northwestEWR
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RE: 777/787 Crews Flying Both?

Fri Oct 23, 2015 11:26 pm

Quoting BravoOne (Reply 34):
As you probably know all the previous 747-8 operators have previous -400 backgrounds thus making it a fairly quick differences course all that was required to get -8 qualified. In the USA if you wanted to get -8 qualified from scratch you would do the -400 course and then do differences.

Right. When I got my CRJ-200 type rating, all I had to do to get the -700 and -900 was differences classroom training to be legal on the -700/900.

Quoting 7BOEING7 (Reply 33):
I don't find it listed in the link above (Reply 11), unless it's hidden somewhere. What's up?

It's in with the 747-400. You only have to do the differences training. FAA treats the -8 like the 75/76.
Northwest Airlines - Now You're Flying Smart
 
Max Q
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RE: 777/787 Crews Flying Both?

Sat Oct 24, 2015 12:26 am

Quoting zeke (Reply 11):
The 777 and 787 are not the same type rating according to the FAA

That's why I stated this Zeke:

Quoting Max Q (Reply 10):
While theoretically the Triple 7 and the 787 have the same type rating there is a differences course and they are
quite unique aircraft systems wise.

So you can calm down..
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.


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zeke
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RE: 777/787 Crews Flying Both?

Sat Oct 24, 2015 2:07 am

Quoting northwestEWR (Reply 35):
Right. When I got my CRJ-200 type rating, all I had to do to get the -700 and -900 was differences classroom training to be legal on the -700/900.

They are all they same type, CL-65 ?

Quoting Max Q (Reply 36):
That's why I stated this Zeke:

You said they have the same type rating which is not correct. The differences training between the 787 and 777 is a recognition of prior learning, it is stating that there are similar system like how to use a radio. Same appears going from and A320 to A340, it is a differences course, however there are different type ratings issued. Once you have the type rating, the airman need to maintain recency on both types. The FSB report tells operators how mixed fleet flying can be done, and the experience requirements airman need to have before they can do mixed fleet flying.
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Max Q
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RE: 777/787 Crews Flying Both?

Sat Oct 24, 2015 6:10 am

Quoting Max Q (Reply 10):
there is a differences course

What part of the above can you not read Zeke ?



You may be better off sticking with Airbus trivia.
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.


Guns are a malignant cancer that are destroying our society
 
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zeke
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RE: 777/787 Crews Flying Both?

Sat Oct 24, 2015 11:02 am

Quoting Max Q (Reply 38):

I read the bit where you claimed "theoretically the Triple 7 and 787 have the same type rating"

That is bullocks, the presence or absence of a differences course does not determine if it is a seperate type.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
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northwestEWR
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RE: 777/787 Crews Flying Both?

Sat Oct 24, 2015 4:21 pm

Quoting zeke (Reply 37):
They are all they same type, CL-65 ?

Same type but required differences training.
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BravoOne
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RE: 777/787 Crews Flying Both?

Sat Oct 24, 2015 6:10 pm

Quoting northwestEWR (Reply 40):
Same type but required differences training

Sort of like the DC9 and the Gulfstream V. The rating says Gulfsteam V but you do the 350,450,550 differences depending on your operational needs and size of your wallet 
 
airbuster
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RE: 777/787 Crews Flying Both?

Sun Oct 25, 2015 6:58 pm

KLM pilots will fly them both. Approved by the Dutch CAA and pilot union.
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BravoOne
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RE: 777/787 Crews Flying Both?

Sun Oct 25, 2015 7:12 pm

Quoting airbuster (Reply 42):
KLM pilots will fly them both. Approved by the Dutch CAA and pilot union.

There you go. I assume annual proficiency checks will be done on either aircraft but not both? Also being an EASA type rating it is what here in here colonies refer to as a common type rating?
 
Thai77w
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RE: 777/787 Crews Flying Both?

Tue Nov 03, 2015 11:51 pm

As I said earlier too, Thai 777 pilots have also been rated on 787 and fly both interchangeably. According to my pilot friends it's a pretty straightforward difference course to gain 787 rating as they are effectively the same as 777 (rating wise)

Also Scoot pilots have both 777/787.
Aircraft types I've been on: PA31,Q300,AT75,AT76,717,733,738,739ER,763,772,77E,773,77W,788,789,744,319,320,332,333,346,359,380
 
BravoOne
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RE: 777/787 Crews Flying Both?

Sat Nov 07, 2015 6:08 pm

Don't think you're correct regarding this dual qualification, as from what I understand the 777's are either gone or about to be history leaving only the 787 for Scoot to operate in a single category.

As for the airplane being the same, don't believe all you read 
 
Thai77w
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RE: 777/787 Crews Flying Both?

Sun Nov 08, 2015 12:58 am

They still have one 777 that originally was supposed to go by now. All pilots had transitioned to 787 but they've had to get some guys to do both.
Aircraft types I've been on: PA31,Q300,AT75,AT76,717,733,738,739ER,763,772,77E,773,77W,788,789,744,319,320,332,333,346,359,380
 
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lammified
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RE: 777/787 Crews Flying Both?

Mon Nov 09, 2015 2:46 am

Quoting thai77w (Reply 46):

They still have one 777 that originally was supposed to go by now. All pilots had transitioned to 787 but they've had to get some guys to do both.

Nope, Scoot maintains separate crews to operate its sole remaining 777. The rest of the 777 crews have transitioned to the 787 and are no longer current on the 777. Scoot does not conduct mixed fleet flying.
 
Thai77w
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RE: 777/787 Crews Flying Both?

Mon Nov 09, 2015 8:53 am

I guess the pilot I spoke to was pulling my leg then  
Aircraft types I've been on: PA31,Q300,AT75,AT76,717,733,738,739ER,763,772,77E,773,77W,788,789,744,319,320,332,333,346,359,380
 
BravoOne
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RE: 777/787 Crews Flying Both?

Mon Nov 09, 2015 9:39 am

Quoting thai77w (Reply 48):
I guess the pilot I spoke to was pulling my leg then

Thanks and won't call you any foolish names in the mean time. Some people are so sure of them selves.

My sources for this issue come from Boeing flight training in Singapore.

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