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mozart
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Did 747 Classics In The 90s And 2000s Use GPS?

Tue Oct 27, 2015 1:21 pm

I know that the 747-400s were equipped with GPS and modern glass cockpits and VNlAV/LNAV and FMCs right from the start. And I know that the early Classics did not have that.

But what about all the 747 Classics that still flew in the 90s and 2000s? Mainly -200 and -300 models, and some SPs? Were they retro-fitted with GPS? Which then linked to the planes Autopilot?
 
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JetBuddy
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RE: Did 747 Classics In The 90s And 2000s Use GPS?

Tue Oct 27, 2015 1:44 pm

As far as I know some were retrofitted with FMS (including GPS systems), some used INS as well as VOR navigation.
 
RetiredWeasel
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RE: Did 747 Classics In The 90s And 2000s Use GPS?

Tue Oct 27, 2015 2:02 pm

Quoting mozart (Thread starter):
But what about all the 747 Classics that still flew in the 90s and 2000s?

At NWA who had a fairly large fleet of classics and 400s during that timeframe, the short answer is no. The classics there never used GPS for navigation. There was a GPS installed (can't remember when ? 2004?) as part of the EGPWS system, but was not interfaced to the NAV system. In fact we couldn't even get a lat/long readout from it.

You're also incorrect on the 400s. As of 2005, only 2 NW 400s had GPS which was used, among other methods, to update the FMS position.
 
744lover
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RE: Did 747 Classics In The 90s And 2000s Use GPS?

Tue Oct 27, 2015 3:33 pm

Hi,

At LH the -400s also didn't have GPS FMC update mechanism until the mid -2000s. When RNP approaches started to kick in they upgraded them to have GPS to update the FMC.

The classics on the other hand never had GPS and they always flew with the old Liton -72 units. Mind you, they used to have drifts on the range of 1NM per hour of operation  

BR,
744lover
 
prebennorholm
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RE: Did 747 Classics In The 90s And 2000s Use GPS?

Tue Oct 27, 2015 3:42 pm

Quoting mozart (Thread starter):
I know that the 747-400s were equipped with GPS and modern glass cockpits and VNlAV/LNAV and FMCs right from the start.

You know that, but it has to be wrong. The 747-400 began service in 1989 which is 5-6 years before there was any GPS system available for civil use.
Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs
 
mozart
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RE: Did 747 Classics In The 90s And 2000s Use GPS?

Tue Oct 27, 2015 8:05 pm

Thanks for all the answers! And also for pointing out where I thought I'd knew but in fact I didn't.
 
prebennorholm
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RE: Did 747 Classics In The 90s And 2000s Use GPS?

Wed Oct 28, 2015 12:40 am

The 747 was in an indirect way "guilty" for making the GPS system available for civil users. After the Russian shoot down of KAL-007 in 1983, president Reagan decreed that the GPS system should be developed to serve also civil users.

Many years, a lot of money, and two presidents later, it became reality.
Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs
 
Flighty
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RE: Did 747 Classics In The 90s And 2000s Use GPS?

Wed Oct 28, 2015 7:21 pm

I still have a Garmin GPS-45 somewhere from 1994, great handheld unit. It was considered a miracle of electronic miniaturization back then. And it was!
 
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zeke
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RE: Did 747 Classics In The 90s And 2000s Use GPS?

Thu Oct 29, 2015 6:28 am

Quoting mozart (Thread starter):
But what about all the 747 Classics that still flew in the 90s and 2000s? Mainly -200 and -300 models, and some SPs? Were they retro-fitted with GPS?

It was 2003 for the Qantas 747-300s

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/cmc-upgrades-classic-cockpit-174833/

Quoting prebennorholm (Reply 4):
You know that, but it has to be wrong. The 747-400 began service in 1989 which is 5-6 years before there was any GPS system available for civil use.

Qantas had the first 747-400 with FANS1 and GPS in 1995.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
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747classic
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RE: Did 747 Classics In The 90s And 2000s Use GPS?

Thu Oct 29, 2015 10:02 am

KLM was the first airline to perform a cockpit upgrade to satisfy the future navigation requirements on the 747-206B(SUD) and -300 fleet around 1998.

The core of the upgrade was the replacement of the triple Delco Carousel IV mechanical Inertial Navigation Systems with three CMC CMA900 FMC's, with as primary navigation GPS , the also newly installed triple strap down Litton INS's were only used as back up in case of a total GPS (signal) failure.
Also the mechanical HSI and ADI's were repaced by Smiths ATI 5 displays.

The Original plan was also to replace the mechanical vertical tape engine instruments, but new HIRF requirements made that very expensive and that part of the upgrade was finally dropped.

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...s/klm-to-upgrade-747-200300s-1711/

http://www.cmcelectronics.ca/pdf/cma900-1.pdf

PH-BUH - September 2001
Operating a twin over the ocean, you're always one engine failure from a total emergency.
 
BravoOne
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RE: Did 747 Classics In The 90s And 2000s Use GPS?

Thu Oct 29, 2015 3:41 pm

Quoting zeke (Reply 8):
Quoting zeke (Reply 8):
Qantas had the first 747-400 with FANS1 and GPS in 1995.

Zeke I'm not so sure about that as I believe UAL was the initial operator of FANS 1 in the 747-400. I'm sure that Qantas was right there as well since most of the initial work done was during the South Pacific FANS trials. I attended several of the early industry meeting that were held in HNL back in the 82, 93 time frame and don't recall Qantas as being a big player at that hour and UAL was already in the mix. I do have Boeing document that talks to this but unfortunetly it is a PDF and 700 + pages so I can't post it here. Describes in detail all the nav system dating back as far at the sextant.
 
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zeke
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RE: Did 747 Classics In The 90s And 2000s Use GPS?

Thu Oct 29, 2015 3:51 pm

Quoting BravoOne (Reply 10):

"This avionics package became known as FANS-1 and was certified on a Qantas 747-400 in June 1995."

http://aerospace.honeywell.com/news/mandates-fans-1a
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
BravoOne
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RE: Did 747 Classics In The 90s And 2000s Use GPS?

Thu Oct 29, 2015 4:54 pm

Take me a little time but I'll check it out. You might be right?
 
BravoOne
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RE: Did 747 Classics In The 90s And 2000s Use GPS?

Thu Oct 29, 2015 8:23 pm

Alex looks like you might be right based on this:

On June 20, 1995, a Qantas B747-400 (VH-OJQ) became the first aircraft to certify the Rolls-Royce FANS-1 package by remote type certification (RTC) in Sydney, Australia. It was followed by the first commercial flight from Sydney to Los Angeles on June 21. Subsequently, Air New Zealand certified the General Electric FANS-1 package, and United Airlines certified the Pratt & Whitney FANS-1 package.

Looks as if all the others were right behind. My Boeing ref say that UAL was at the forefront of this as as early as 1991 but financial issue kept them from following through. Boeing went back a devised along with Honeywell a less expensive system that was supported by the Pegasus FMC and that's when the program got some life.

Actually the Boeing nav book goes as far back as the lighted airways 

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