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NYPECO
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Complete Engine Failure On Takeoff

Thu Nov 05, 2015 1:51 am

Is there anything that can be done in an aircraft when you have complete loss of engine power (all engines out) after V1 just as the aircraft is starting to rotate? It seems like choosing to continue taking off, or attempting to stop despite V1 would be a bad situation either way. Is there a safe way to land safely in this scenario?
 
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Moose135
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RE: Complete Engine Failure On Takeoff

Thu Nov 05, 2015 2:02 am

If you lose all engines, you don't have many choices - certainly, continuing the take off is out of the question. In your scenario, if you're still on the runway, set it back down, get on the brakes, and keep it under control as best you can until it stops.

[Edited 2015-11-04 18:03:06]
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RetiredWeasel
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RE: Complete Engine Failure On Takeoff

Thu Nov 05, 2015 2:08 am

Quoting NYPECO (Thread starter):
It seems like choosing to continue taking off, or attempting to stop

I don't quite understand your conditions here. If you lose all thrust, you don't have the option of "continuing the takeoff". You'd be lucky if you're flying a light weight narrow body on a 11000 ft runway and then, still, hope for the best. If you're taking off in a heavyweight wide body, then I'd start expelling bodily fluids and then start praying.

I don't mean to make light of it, but I've never heard of this happening on a 2 engine airliner and certainly not a 3 or 4 holer.
 
PGNCS
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RE: Complete Engine Failure On Takeoff

Thu Nov 05, 2015 2:40 am

Quoting NYPECO (Thread starter):

Is there anything that can be done in an aircraft when you have complete loss of engine power (all engines out) after V1 just as the aircraft is starting to rotate? It seems like choosing to continue taking off, or attempting to stop despite V1 would be a bad situation either way. Is there a safe way to land safely in this scenario?

This is not taught nor practiced in the simulator by any operator I have knowledge of. There is no contemplating continuing the takeoff, the only consideration is lowering the nose, and using brakes and spoilers to decelerate as rapidly as possible. Is it safe? Pretty much by definition, no. Is it survivable? It depends entirely on a multitude of other factors far beyond your scenario.
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: Complete Engine Failure On Takeoff

Thu Nov 05, 2015 3:12 am

Losing all engines is only contemplated on singles, but wings being wings, the considerations would be pretty much the same in a multi even if it is not practiced.

Complete engine failure in a multi engined aircraft at rotation is exceedingly unlikely, but engine flameout at low altitude has happened on multiple occasions, e.g. the SK Gottröra crash and the "Miracle on the Hudson".

In a light single the thinking is something like this, and coincides with what is mentioned above. The before take-off briefing should go through the options.
- If still on the ground, stop. (If you overrun, so be it.)
- If airborne, land on remaining runway. If no available runway, land straight ahead (no more than 30 degrees off the runway heading).
- If airborne above 500 feet, find a place off airport to make a forced landing. Watch our for sharp turns as they cost altitude.
- If airborne above 1000 feet, you are at circuit/pattern altitude, so you would turn and either land on an intersecting runway (if available) or make a u-turn for the reciprocal of the take-off runway.

[Edited 2015-11-04 20:08:10]
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vikkyvik
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RE: Complete Engine Failure On Takeoff

Thu Nov 05, 2015 3:19 am

Quoting NYPECO (Thread starter):
Is there anything that can be done in an aircraft when you have complete loss of engine power (all engines out) after V1 just as the aircraft is starting to rotate? It seems like choosing to continue taking off, or attempting to stop despite V1 would be a bad situation either way. Is there a safe way to land safely in this scenario?

Even if V1 is at or close to Vr, while you might be able to get the gear off the ground for a few seconds, rapidly decaying speed (drag at high AoA with no thrust) will plant you right back down on the runway in short order. No point in wasting that runway - as the others noted, your best (read: only) bet is to get on the brakes and spoilers ASAP.
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Max Q
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RE: Complete Engine Failure On Takeoff

Thu Nov 05, 2015 6:51 am

I would suggest staying home  Wow!
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.


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TheSonntag
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RE: Complete Engine Failure On Takeoff

Thu Nov 05, 2015 9:38 am

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 5):
Even if V1 is at or close to Vr, while you might be able to get the gear off the ground for a few seconds, rapidly decaying speed (drag at high AoA with no thrust) will plant you right back down on the runway in short order

Would braking on the ground with brakes in such a scenario (slamming the plane down asap) slow you down faster than trying to flare the plane at the edge of stalling?
 
mmo
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RE: Complete Engine Failure On Takeoff

Thu Nov 05, 2015 10:33 am

Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 7):
Would braking on the ground with brakes in such a scenario (slamming the plane down asap) slow you down faster than trying to flare the plane at the edge of stalling?

Assuming you are not flying a B727 or DC-9, at some point you will become a passenger. A loss of all engines will result in the loss of hydraulics which will render things like flight controls, landing gear extension, and normal braking inop. In addition, you will lose all electrics save for STBY power until the APU spools up. So, it's not a very good place to be. Your options are extremely limited.
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a320fan
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RE: Complete Engine Failure On Takeoff

Thu Nov 05, 2015 2:07 pm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vi6OK-srxJk

This video might give you some idea. As has been said above by people with much more knowledge than myself, there really is not many options beyond braking the best you can in such a situation, in an airliner at least.
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rfields5421
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RE: Complete Engine Failure On Takeoff

Thu Nov 05, 2015 2:56 pm

Quoting NYPECO (Thread starter):
Is there a safe way to land safely in this scenario?

No

I've been told more than once that a major catastrophic failure after V1 means the pilots, and anyone else on the plane, have only the option to ride the plane off the end of the runway and hope it gets stopped before they hit anything which would cause a major fire.

The B747 that went off the end of the runway at BRU in 2008 was an example. They were past V1, they heard and felt the Nr 3 engine stall (later determined to be due to a bird strike) and they aborted the takeoff - running 300M past the end of the runway and breaking the aircraft into three parts - a write-off.

Yes, the post crash investigation revealed that the pilots should have continued with the takeoff and return for an emergency overweight landing. However, they had a to make a decision. It was just TWO SECONDS after the loud explosion type noise and stagger of the aircraft acceleration rate were heard/ felt in the cockpit that they initiated a RTO.

They were wrong in hindsight, but when they initiated the RTO they knew two things:

(1) they were going off the end of the runway, the aircraft would likely be destroyed, the flight crew might be injured or killed, and

(2) if the aircraft was unable to fly - they were not going to drop it on top of dozens of homes with people sleeping in them. In some of the interviews, the Captain expressed that he was not confident enough that the aircraft would fly to risk that option.

Sometimes the decisions pilots have to make in two seconds are wrong, and they are only the choice of two or three bad options.


Another example is USAir 1549. Captain Sullenberger and FO Skiles are praised for their water landing - which I believe any compentent airline crew worldwide should be able to accomplish.

Where Capt Sullenberger was a hero on that day is in the decision he made in a very few seconds to put the plane in the Hudson River. That is not a 100% survival scenario, especially with water temps that day. But it was a better choice than going down in a populated land area, hoping that a freeway would be clear enough to allow the aircraft to crash with the fuselage basically intact. He had only very, very bad options available, and he chose the least casuality option. Post crash simulator testing has shown that had he waited another five seconds, a landing in the river would have been impossible, the plane would have gone down in a populated area.

Many people forget that Sullenberger's first comments to police who picked him up were that he was convinced that there were several people lost in the water landing. He didn't believe everyone had gotten out of the plane, and that no one had slipped into the water and drowned.
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thegman
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RE: Complete Engine Failure On Takeoff

Thu Nov 05, 2015 6:05 pm

Quoting mmo (Reply 8):
Assuming you are not flying a B727 or DC-9, at some point you will become a passenger. A loss of all engines will result in the loss of hydraulics which will render things like flight controls, landing gear extension, and normal braking inop. In addition, you will lose all electrics save for STBY power until the APU spools up. So, it's not a very good place to be. Your options are extremely limited.

Ehhh, kind of. Most (if not all airplanes) have some sort of backup brakes, usually using a pressure accumulator that will allow for 6-9 brake applications in the event of lost hydraulics.
 
mmo
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RE: Complete Engine Failure On Takeoff

Thu Nov 05, 2015 8:38 pm

Quoting thegman (Reply 11):
Ehhh, kind of. Most (if not all airplanes) have some sort of backup brakes, usually using a pressure accumulator that will allow for 6-9 brake applications in the event of lost hydraulics

Ehhh, read my post again! That's why I specifically said "normal brakes"!!!
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thegman
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RE: Complete Engine Failure On Takeoff

Thu Nov 05, 2015 11:30 pm

Quoting mmo (Reply 12):

Ehhh, read my post again! That's why I specifically said "normal brakes"!!!

Ah yes, that entire post hinged on the assumption that it would be better to "fly" for a few moments. You're completely right, if I were flying a plane with hydraulic controls that lost all engines just at/after rotation you would be a passenger.

Scenario: Any ejection seat aircraft like F-16 F-15 with hydro control surfaces would recommend a punch out instead of putting it back down unlike something with manual controls like a Cessna 172 or T-6.
 
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NYPECO
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RE: Complete Engine Failure On Takeoff

Fri Nov 06, 2015 12:55 am

Thanks for the replies everyone!  
 
wing
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RE: Complete Engine Failure On Takeoff

Tue Nov 10, 2015 10:40 am

A quote from rejected take off briefing" We abort take off........or aircraft unsafe or unable to fly"
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vikkyvik
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RE: Complete Engine Failure On Takeoff

Wed Nov 11, 2015 9:04 am

Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 7):

Would braking on the ground with brakes in such a scenario (slamming the plane down asap) slow you down faster than trying to flare the plane at the edge of stalling?

Yeah, wheel brakes can likely outdo aerodynamic braking by quite a bit. You could try keeping the nose up off the ground to add some aerodynamic braking while using wheel brakes too, but that will reduce the wheel braking effectiveness. Better to get as much of the weight on the wheels as quickly as possible to ensure maximum effectiveness, and slam on those brakes.
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Siren
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RE: Complete Engine Failure On Takeoff

Sun Nov 15, 2015 11:49 pm

I'm going to go ahead and bring up another incident from 2008, and that's the Kalitta crash in Bogota, Colombia. 747-200 freighter which lost 1 engine at V1, and subsequently two other engines (one failed entirely, the other in degraded operation), leaving the plane with 1 good engine just after takeoff at high altitude at night. Darned if you do, and if you don't... This is the result:

http://avherald.com/h?article=40950475
 
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AirlineCritic
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RE: Complete Engine Failure On Takeoff

Tue Nov 17, 2015 7:48 am

Quoting Siren (Reply 17):
I'm going to go ahead and bring up another incident from 2008, and that's the Kalitta crash in Bogota, Colombia. 747-200 freighter which lost 1 engine at V1, and subsequently two other engines (one failed entirely, the other in degraded operation), leaving the plane with 1 good engine just after takeoff at high altitude at night. Darned if you do, and if you don't... This is the result:

That was an interesting crash, remember that the crew survived even if the plane was in pieces. People in the ground did not...

I had not seen the cause of the multiple failures determined before, or the accident report. Very interesting reading:

Quote:

All four engines were working normally during takeoff roll. During rotation for takeoff engine #4 (outboard right) suffered a surge that did not recover by itsself. The landing gear was selected up about 15 seconds after the engine failure and completed 22 seconds later with all gear up and all gear doors closed. The crew did not take immediate action to correct the engine surge, nor were they required to do by standard operating procedures as the aircraft had not yet reached minimum safe altitude of 800 feet AGL. Flaps were not retracted/reduced as well as the aircraft had not yet reached minimum safe altitude and had not reached indicated airspeeds according to the one engine inoperative flaps schedule. While climbing out on three engines the captain did not maintain V2 or above, the angle of attack continuously increased until the activation of the stick shaker, only by then the captain lowered the nose of the aircraft which accelerated but descended down to 400 feet AGL again. The captain again increased the pitch angle of the aircraft again until activation of the stick shaker at which point he firewalled the thrust levers producing a state of overboost on the remaining three engines in an effort to increase speed and altitude. In the next 5 seconds the GPWS issued four "Don't sink" aural alerts, the speed reached V2 and the altitude increased by 100 feet in the 12 seconds after firewalling the thrust levers. About 20 seconds after the thrust levers were firewalled engine #1 lost its power leaving the aircraft in a state where it could not sustain flight in its present configuration. Engine #3 continued to operate normally while engine #2 suffered and recovered from repeated engine surges. At impact engine #4 was still turning at low speed.

The old swiss cheese causes yet another accident. Engine problem + high altitude + not flying the airplane.
 
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EA CO AS
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RE: Complete Engine Failure On Takeoff

Sat Nov 21, 2015 5:20 am

Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 7):
Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 5):Even if V1 is at or close to Vr, while you might be able to get the gear off the ground for a few seconds, rapidly decaying speed (drag at high AoA with no thrust) will plant you right back down on the runway in short order
Would braking on the ground with brakes in such a scenario (slamming the plane down asap) slow you down faster than trying to flare the plane at the edge of stalling?

If you have brakes available (no loss of hydraulics or other control mechanism) you want to increase drag and take as much lift out of your control surfaces as possible to put more weight on the wheels to aid in deceleration.

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 16):
Better to get as much of the weight on the wheels as quickly as possible to ensure maximum effectiveness, and slam on those brakes.

  

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