QFA380
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Will We Ever See A Boeing Sidestick?

Sat Nov 28, 2015 7:00 am

I've been pondering this a little bit lately, having recently visited a 787 flightdeck and being amazed with the technology leap in general it struck me how out of place the yoke looks. Considering on a typical long haul flight the autopilot is off for almost never more than say 20 minutes out of up to 14 hours.

At the moment the move to sidesticks seems to accelerating in recent and planned large jets, the new Falcon 5X and 8X along with 7X, Global 7000/8000, C-Series, COMAC C919, Superjet and perhaps most importantly the new Gulfstream 500 and 600 which will be the first to have active sidesticks.

Yokes are now found only found in the Embraer E-2 versions (although KC-390 is sidestick), the MRJ, the new Citations have them however I'd be willing to bet the recently announced Hemisphere will switch to sidestick and then we're left with Boeing.

It seemed in the past the feedback was an issue however the Gulfstreams are changing that and I don't think Boeing could reasonably justify a switch without saying 'ours is better than Airbus because of the feedback'.

If the 737 replacement and MAX can be flown with a single type rating is a sidestick then a non-starter?

Any practical issues that may pop up? Obviously can't be retrofitted to yoke planes considering how large the assembly is even for Airbus non-feedback sidesticks.

Will future clean sheets like the '7M(OM)7' and 737 replacement have sidesticks? The 787 seems to have been designed just a few years too early and before the tide really started to change.
 
mmo
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RE: Will We Ever See A Boeing Sidestick?

Sat Nov 28, 2015 7:40 am

Quoting QFA380 (Thread starter):
If the 737 replacement and MAX can be flown with a single type rating is a sidestick then a non-starter?

It would require a new type rating.

Quoting QFA380 (Thread starter):
Considering on a typical long haul flight the autopilot is off for almost never more than say 20 minutes out of up to 14 hours.

I think that might be a little low.

Just as an aside, I don't think it makes any difference to Boeing at all. Years ago, when the 777 was just a piece of paper, Boeing had a working group of several airlines. The goal was to solicit input from the potential operators on just what they wanted to see in a new aircraft. One of the issues explored was the side stick. At that time, the overwhelming majority of operators wanted a traditional yoke. As a result of the feed back, Boeing went with the yoke and the requirement to trim for speed but not configuration changes. Now, fast forward 25+ years, and you might have a different result from input of potential operators. The 787 was also designed using input from potential operators.

I don't think it's a "Boeing thing" as your title implies!!!
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Starlionblue
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RE: Will We Ever See A Boeing Sidestick?

Sat Nov 28, 2015 8:01 am

Quoting MMO (Reply 1):
I don't think it's a "Boeing thing" as your title implies!!!

Indeed. Manufacturers ultimately build the aircraft that they can sell.

Quoting MMO (Reply 1):
Quoting QFA380 (Thread starter):
Considering on a typical long haul flight the autopilot is off for almost never more than say 20 minutes out of up to 14 hours.

I think that might be a little low.

In my experience 20 minutes seems rather high. But it presumably depends on the airline.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
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Florianopolis
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RE: Will We Ever See A Boeing Sidestick?

Sat Nov 28, 2015 8:05 am

It would probably require some changes to the Boeing airplane control philosophy and pilot in-the-loopness. It's important to consider the interface (yoke or stick) along with the control logic that's operating the control surfaces. The yoke or stick is just an input device, and part of the greater system.

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 2):
Manufacturers ultimately build the aircraft that they can sell.

It's not impossible, and actually likely if customers start asking for it. Then again, even if the Boeing boys can get comfortable with sidesticks, and that control logic and pilots had developed sufficiently, they'd probably be afraid of old Boeing people coming back from the grave to beat them to death with their fancy new sidesticks.
 
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747classic
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RE: Will We Ever See A Boeing Sidestick?

Sat Nov 28, 2015 8:07 am

Seen the recent accidents (AF A330, etc), were the sidestick (dual input or input unnoticed by the other crewmember) is a contributing factor, it was in retrospect a very wise decission of Boeing to stick with the yoke on FBW aircraft.
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Starlionblue
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RE: Will We Ever See A Boeing Sidestick?

Sat Nov 28, 2015 8:13 am

Quoting Florianopolis (Reply 3):
Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 2):
Manufacturers ultimately build the aircraft that they can sell.

It's not impossible, and actually likely if customers start asking for it. Then again, even if the Boeing boys can get comfortable with sidesticks, and that control logic and pilots had developed sufficiently, they'd probably be afraid of old Boeing people coming back from the grave to beat them to death with their fancy new sidesticks.

        

Fair point. There is probably quite a bit of organizational inertia involved in these things.

Quoting 747classic (Reply 4):

Seen the recent accidents (AF A330, etc), were the sidestick (dual input or input unnoticed by the other crewmember) is a contributing factor, it was in retrospect a very wise decission of Boeing to stick with the yoke on FBW aircraft.

While the sidestick may have been contributing, this does not mean a yoke is the ultimate solution. All aircraft have "traps". IIRC, misunderstanding of Boeing's vertical modes was a contributing factor in the Asiana crash.

[Edited 2015-11-28 00:40:06]
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
QFA380
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RE: Will We Ever See A Boeing Sidestick?

Sat Nov 28, 2015 9:03 am

Quoting 747classic (Reply 4):
Seen the recent accidents (AF A330, etc), were the sidestick (dual input or input unnoticed by the other crewmember) is a contributing factor, it was in retrospect a very wise decission of Boeing to stick with the yoke on FBW aircraft.

That is definitely stirring up the hornet's nest...

Quoting MMO (Reply 1):
I don't think it's a "Boeing thing" as your title implies!!!

At this stage of the game it has kind of become a Boeing thing moving forward. Nearly all large jet manufacturers do now or are planning to move to sidesticks in all or some of their models.

Quoting Florianopolis (Reply 3):
It would probably require some changes to the Boeing airplane control philosophy and pilot in-the-loopness.

From down here as a reasonably knowledgeable albeit only GA pilot, it seems that moving from standard trim to trim for speed with FBW is a bigger change than removing all the parts that a 777 pilot isn't touching anyway.

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 2):
In my experience 20 minutes seems rather high. But it presumably depends on the airline.

That would be around the absolute maximum in normal operations? 10 minutes either side is just about in RVSM airspace.

Quoting Florianopolis (Reply 3):
It's not impossible, and actually likely if customers start asking for it.

Would a hypothetical sidestick compartment be lighter, cheaper and easier to maintain than having all the flight control components in the floor?
 
mmo
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RE: Will We Ever See A Boeing Sidestick?

Sat Nov 28, 2015 12:41 pm

Quoting QFA380 (Reply 6):
From down here as a reasonably knowledgeable albeit only GA pilot, it seems that moving from standard trim to trim for speed with FBW is a bigger change than removing all the parts that a 777 pilot isn't touching anyway.

You've lost me on this statement. On the Airbus side of things, and I have flown both, there is no trimming at all. On the Boeing side, you trim for speed changes and not configuration changes. It would be a very minor change to adapt the Boeing side for no trim. However, during the initial design of the 777, the feedback from potential operators was more feedback from the flight controls. Thus, the trim for speed design. Again, Boeing was responding to what the market wanted and not a stem that was better or worse than Airbus.

Quoting QFA380 (Reply 6):
Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 2):
In my experience 20 minutes seems rather high. But it presumably depends on the airline.

That would be around the absolute maximum in normal operations? 10 minutes either side is just about in RVSM airspace.

I disagree with the 20 minutes. First of all, I would say in "normal" operations it's around the 30 minute mark or even more. Also, you are not going to be in RVSM airspace 10 minutes, normally, after departure.

Quoting QFA380 (Reply 6):
Would a hypothetical sidestick compartment be lighter, cheaper and easier to maintain than having all the flight control components in the floor?

Again, I am at a loss to figure out what you're asking. If both Boeing and Airbus make FBW, then if the interface is in the floor or the side panel, it really makes no difference. To be honest, I've seen more sidesticks removed than yoke problems and a yoke is marginally heavier than a side stick. At the end of the day, it probably is 6 of one and a half dozen of the other.
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CARST
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RE: Will We Ever See A Boeing Sidestick?

Sat Nov 28, 2015 12:59 pm

Quoting QFA380 (Reply 6):
Would a hypothetical sidestick compartment be lighter, cheaper and easier to maintain than having all the flight control components in the floor?

If Boeing would link them, you would still have the component in the floor. Or they just link them by "force feedback", then there's just another cable under the floor. ^^

Quoting 747classic (Reply 4):
Seen the recent accidents (AF A330, etc), were the sidestick (dual input or input unnoticed by the other crewmember) is a contributing factor, it was in retrospect a very wise decission of Boeing to stick with the yoke on FBW aircraft.

Very good point, I don't think Boeing will give that safety feature up. Exception would be linked sidesticks. But even then, why? Looking at the 787 flightdeck, it looks hyper-modern, even with the (streamlined) yokes in place.

When talking about the topic anyway, it is not bad that you can control the yoke with both hands in case you need your left hand (pilot / right hand FO) for something else (like grabbing the oxygen mask which is under the place where the sidesticks are installed).

Btw here is an Airbus-Boeing-hybrid with Yoke AND Sidestick:
http://www.dlr.de/Portaldata/1/Resources/luftfahrt/attas_sidestick.jpg
Source:
http://www.dlr.de/DesktopDefault.asp...llery-1/gallery_read-Image.1.5658/
 
WIederling
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RE: Will We Ever See A Boeing Sidestick?

Sat Nov 28, 2015 4:07 pm

Quoting 747classic (Reply 4):
Seen the recent accidents (AF A330, etc), were the sidestick (dual input or input unnoticed by the other crewmember) is a contributing factor,

If this were true

Quoting 747classic (Reply 4):

it was in retrospect a very wise decission of Boeing to stick with the yoke on FBW aircraft.

this could be correct. ( But how then do the fighter jocks handle dual joysticks?)

only they neither had "unnoticed input" or "dual input" afai have understood the BAE crash reports.

they had "we dont't get the situation we have entered by our action
and we won't start the prescribed/approved process to find out / fix it."
until ... splash.
Murphy is an optimist
 
WIederling
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RE: Will We Ever See A Boeing Sidestick?

Sat Nov 28, 2015 5:21 pm

Attas

Base aircraft was a VFW 614 ( with a conventional cockpit).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VFW-Fokker_614
http://www.dlr.de/dlr/en/desktopdefa...d-10203/1127_read-266#/gallery/112
Murphy is an optimist
 
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crimsonchin
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RE: Will We Ever See A Boeing Sidestick?

Sat Nov 28, 2015 11:17 pm

No, because that would be admitting Airbus were "right". Boeing will probably be the only OEM with a sidestick in a few decades.
 
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Florianopolis
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RE: Will We Ever See A Boeing Sidestick?

Sun Nov 29, 2015 5:52 am

Here's a question:

Airbus doesn't mechanically connect or backfeed the sidesticks. Was this because, at the time, they determined it would be too mechanically challenging? OR because they actually believed philosophically that they *should not* be interconnected and backfed? (in the same way Airbus says that the thrust levers *not* moving is a feature, not a bug.)

In other words, are the "dual-input" warnings and sidestick priority buttons just band-aids to make it workable?
 
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RE: Will We Ever See A Boeing Sidestick?

Sun Nov 29, 2015 9:03 am

Quoting QFA380 (Thread starter):
If the 737 replacement and MAX can be flown with a single type rating is a sidestick then a non-starter?

The 737 replacement will be whatever WN want, and they're so ultra conservative a side-stick is very unlikely.

Quoting MMO (Reply 7):
I disagree with the 20 minutes. First of all, I would say in "normal" operations it's around the 30 minute mark or even more. Also, you are not going to be in RVSM airspace 10 minutes, normally, after departure.

Think you will find that, in large parts of the world the SOP calls for auto-pilot on as soon as possible after T/O, only to be disconnected just prior to DH. That is, if an autoland is not performed. Thus, outside the US (where manual handling is encouraged much more than the rest of the world), the time in manual control will be in single digit minutes, if not seconds. Even at airlines who encourage manual flight, leaving Johnny to take care of business is a very wise choice if you're flying around in crowded airspace; flying a manual STAR into e.g. LHR is a fools errand. In any case, it is sadly a rare case indeed when an airliner is flown manually above 10K, and just taking the kite up to 10K manually is about as rare as hen's teeth in busy European airspace.
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Pihero
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RE: Will We Ever See A Boeing Sidestick?

Sun Nov 29, 2015 1:52 pm

Quoting 747classic (Reply 4):
Seen the recent accidents (AF A330, etc), were the sidestick (dual input or input unnoticed by the other crewmember) is a contributing factor

Aren't you tired of this rubbish ?
Had the sidestick been found as a *contributing factor*, it would have been removed and all the 'Buses grounded... which is not the case, is it ?
Another B fanboy red herring, I'm afraid...L   

Quoting crimsonchin (Reply 11):
Boeing will probably be the only OEM with a sidestick in a few decades.

I haver a feeling, you wanted to say *without a sidestick*, didn't you ?

Quoting Florianopolis (Reply 12):
Airbus doesn't mechanically connect or backfeed the sidesticks. Was this because, at the time, they determined it would be too mechanically challenging? OR because they actually believed philosophically that they *should not* be interconnected and backfed? (in the same way Airbus says that the thrust levers *not* moving is a feature, not a bug.)

1/-You seem to belittle Airbus engineers qualifications and capabilities... From the wotd *Go !*, they looked for simplification, and managed it.
What is puzzling is that all aircraft have in a form or another a *feel* feature. Why can't it be acknowledged on a 'Bus, although it makes on their FBW architecture a lot more sense than on a 737 ?

2/L- People seem to ignore the fact that in the eighties, NASA and Boeing studied new cockpit concepts ( the TSRV program ) like brolly handles and - surprise, surprise ! - a sidestick ( provided by an English engineer IIRC ). That stick was then used as a control input into the CWS mode of the A/P of the 737.
Excerpts from a book called " Airborne Trailblazer" on the NASA use of the 737-100 prototype in the eighties as a TSRV :
" Sidestick controllers, like those eventually installed in the Airbus A-320 airliner, were ruled out because they were a more dramatic departure from conventional yokes, and the researchers wanted to keep the 737’s cockpit at least somewhat familiar to airline pilots. Although they were referred to intechnical papers as “Panel Mounted Controllers,” the dual handles were dubbed “Brolly Handles” by a British engineer who worked on the project"
...............
" One of the concerns often voiced by pilots and human engineering specialists about automated cockpit functions
was that they would eliminate the pilot from the control loop entirely, leading to an undesirably low level of activity for the pilot and even a decay in his flying skills.”’ The idea behind CWS was to reduce the pilot’s workload without automating the flight control fonction entirely, so that the pilot would remain “in the loop...”


...So, as a matter of fact, the argument against the Airbus architecture had, originally, nothing to do with the sidestick... does it ?
After reading that book, my feeling is that it is another case of *Not Invented Here* syndrome.

Quoting Florianopolis (Reply 12):
In other words, are the "dual-input" warnings and sidestick priority buttons just band-aids to make it workable?

No. That is part of the design philosophy.

[Edited 2015-11-29 05:54:47]
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Bambel
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RE: Will We Ever See A Boeing Sidestick?

Sun Nov 29, 2015 3:15 pm

Quoting crimsonchin (Reply 11):
No, because that would be admitting Airbus were "right". Boeing will probably be the only OEM with a sidestick in a few decades

Thats a non-issue if customers demand a sidestick cockpit. The 737 successor will most likely be the next cleansheet that Boeing launches and i guess it all depends on what airlines want to have. If the majority wants a joke, it will have a yoke and vv. if more airlines prefer a sidestick sollution. In a way it's not realy Boeings decision.

b.
 
strfyr51
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RE: Will We Ever See A Boeing Sidestick?

Sun Nov 29, 2015 3:37 pm

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 5):
While the sidestick may have been contributing, this does not mean a yoke is the ultimate solution. All aircraft have "traps". IIRC, misunderstanding

Those control modes had nothing to Do with a side stick. The pilot set his auto thrust and flare mode for a ZERO ft. altitude then expected the airplane to Flare while doing a totally Visual approach.
He set the airplane up wrong for the Approach and when it went BAD they Blamed the airplane.. There wasn't a damn thing wrong with the Airplane.
the Side stick vs the Yoke are arguments of preference. Neither is really better then the other. What would be better would be a side stick with tactile feedback to the opposite side stick.
Now That would be innovative.
 
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CALTECH
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RE: Will We Ever See A Boeing Sidestick?

Sun Nov 29, 2015 3:50 pm

Quoting QFA380 (Thread starter):
Will We Ever See A Boeing Sidestick?

Boeing already has a joystick, which is happier than a sidestick.

http://media.dma.mil/2012/Apr/26/2000157400/-1/-1/0/120425-F-DW547-005.JPG

https://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5217/5508772647_b14d60a8ba_b.jpg
You are here.
 
Okie
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RE: Will We Ever See A Boeing Sidestick?

Sun Nov 29, 2015 3:53 pm

Quoting strfyr51 (Reply 16):
Neither is really better then the other. What would be better would be a side stick with tactile feedback to the opposite side stick.
Now That would be innovative.

I somehow do not think A or B is asleep at the wheel on that. I expect there is plenty of R & D and prototype units in existence.

The big issue is that neither Boeing or Airbus is going to release such on existing airframes. That will largely be driven by operators not having to retrain on existing airframes.
Boeing has existing back driven controls for the yoke so back driving a stick should be pretty easy.

Just not going to happen until there is a replacement for 737 series (797?) or a replacement for 320 series (390?)

Okie
 
mmo
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RE: Will We Ever See A Boeing Sidestick?

Sun Nov 29, 2015 4:45 pm

Quoting B777LRF (Reply 13):
Think you will find that, in large parts of the world the SOP calls for auto-pilot on as soon as possible after T/O, only to be disconnected just prior to DH.

I have flown in the US for a 121 carrier, I've flown in Asia for a well respected airline in Singapore, I have also flown in the Mid-East and have never had, read or heard of a SOP which mandated the autopilot on as soon as possible after T/O and off just prior to DH!

Granted there are airports like LHR where there are special airport instructions that mandate the A/P go on as soon as possible, but that's for a reason. There is the general condition that RECOMMENDS the A/P to be engaged in high workload situations, but that is left up to the crew. I'd be interested to know what airline(s) have SOPs that mandate the A/P be engaged as you write.

Quoting B777LRF (Reply 13):
n any case, it is sadly a rare case indeed when an airliner is flown manually above 10K, and just taking the kite up to 10K manually is about as rare as hen's teeth in busy European airspace.

Exactly and that should get you about 15 minutes from T/O and 15 minutes on arrival.....thus the 30 minutes. Personally, I would always encourage the FOs to hand fly the climb and descent. Most were very willing to do that, especially if they were relative low time or new in the A/C!
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RE: Will We Ever See A Boeing Sidestick?

Sun Nov 29, 2015 5:58 pm

Quoting Pihero (Reply 14):
In other words, are the "dual-input" warnings and sidestick priority buttons just band-aids to make it workable?

No. That is part of the design philosophy.

Interesting. I appreciate your thoughts. It just seems like one of the more awkward parts of the cockpit/system integration/human factors design that Airbus uses. Can't some things actually be tooo simple, because they give up some utility of more complex systems? A false simplicity, so to speak?
 
PGNCS
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RE: Will We Ever See A Boeing Sidestick?

Sun Nov 29, 2015 7:29 pm

Quoting 747classic (Reply 4):
Seen the recent accidents (AF A330, etc), were the sidestick (dual input or input unnoticed by the other crewmember) is a contributing factor, it was in retrospect a very wise decission of Boeing to stick with the yoke on FBW aircraft.

You mean like the recent Asiana 777 accident in SFO?  
Quoting MMO (Reply 7):
I disagree with the 20 minutes. First of all, I would say in "normal" operations it's around the 30 minute mark or even more. Also, you are not going to be in RVSM airspace 10 minutes, normally, after departure.

I would like to see a study of this but I would bet it's nowhere NEAR 20 minutes on an average flight, and probably not even close. I have flown under 121 for over 25 years, have taught in the sim and been a Check Airman and Designated Examiner on multiple types, and have done contract training for dozens of airlines from every region on earth and I cannot imagine that in a modern automated aircraft the A/P is off for anywhere close to 10 or 15 minutes on either end of the flight on a regular basis at most carriers.

Quoting Pihero (Reply 14):
Another B fanboy red herring, I'm afraid...L

  
 
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AirPacific747
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RE: Will We Ever See A Boeing Sidestick?

Sun Nov 29, 2015 7:39 pm

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 2):
In my experience 20 minutes seems rather high. But it presumably depends on the airline.

It is indeed high. Normally not much more than 5-10 minutes with autopilot off per flight, I'd say.

Quoting crimsonchin (Reply 11):
No, because that would be admitting Airbus were "right". Boeing will probably be the only OEM with a sidestick in a few decades.

  
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: Will We Ever See A Boeing Sidestick?

Mon Nov 30, 2015 2:26 am

Quoting CARST (Reply 8):
When talking about the topic anyway, it is not bad that you can control the yoke with both hands in case you need your left hand (pilot / right hand FO) for something else (like grabbing the oxygen mask which is under the place where the sidesticks are installed).

Not a problem. The plane is not going anywhere if you let go of the stick for a few seconds while handflying. Unlrdd you're far out of trim, in which case you're not in Normal Law anyway and your problems started well before.

Quoting crimsonchin (Reply 11):
No, because that would be admitting Airbus were "right". Boeing will probably be the only OEM with a sidestick in a few decades.

I'm afraid there is a lot of truth there.

Quoting strfyr51 (Reply 16):

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 5):
While the sidestick may have been contributing, this does not mean a yoke is the ultimate solution. All aircraft have "traps". IIRC, misunderstanding

Those control modes had nothing to Do with a side stick. The pilot set his auto thrust and flare mode for a ZERO ft. altitude then expected the airplane to Flare while doing a totally Visual approach.
He set the airplane up wrong for the Approach and when it went BAD they Blamed the airplane.. There wasn't a damn thing wrong with the Airplane.

My point was that all aircraft have traps and gotchas. Some people feel that the non-linked sidesticks are a trap, but again, all aircraft have quirks.

Using your argument about blaming the airplane, that's exactly what many critics do with AF447. They blame the non-linked sidesticks when the problem was not that at all.

Quoting Florianopolis (Reply 20):

Quoting Pihero (Reply 14):
In other words, are the "dual-input" warnings and sidestick priority buttons just band-aids to make it workable?

No. That is part of the design philosophy.

Interesting. I appreciate your thoughts. It just seems like one of the more awkward parts of the cockpit/system integration/human factors design that Airbus uses. Can't some things actually be tooo simple, because they give up some utility of more complex systems? A false simplicity, so to speak?

It's actually really not very awkward in practice.

I think Airbus didn't want to give the pilots the false impression that control input equates to surface or thrust output. Same with the non-moving thrust levers. Looking at stick and thrust level position and inferring aircraft behaviour can easily lead you down the wrong path. As an example of discrepancy, the BA 777 that crashed at LHR was asking for increasing thrust, as evidenced by the thrust levers. But the engines were not delivering the demanded thrust.

Some Airbus instructors talk about "rumour" and "fact". The flap lever position is "rumour". The flap position indicator is "fact". The altitude target set on the FCU (glareshield panel) is "rumour". The altitude target displayed on the speed tape is "fact". This teaches that you shouldn't confuse what you are telling the aircraft to do with what the aircraft is actually doing.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
strfyr51
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RE: Will We Ever See A Boeing Sidestick?

Mon Nov 30, 2015 8:17 am

while I've worked with both the 737 and the A320 series at United we've found both the yokes and the side sticks equally reliable
I have never heard of and in flight problem on either where either became inoperative. That both don't have one or the other was a matter of Engineering..
 
BoeingGuy
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RE: Will We Ever See A Boeing Sidestick?

Tue Dec 01, 2015 1:05 am

Quoting PGNCS (Reply 21):
Quoting 747classic (Reply 4):
Seen the recent accidents (AF A330, etc), were the sidestick (dual input or input unnoticed by the other crewmember) is a contributing factor, it was in retrospect a very wise decission of Boeing to stick with the yoke on FBW aircraft.

You mean like the recent Asiana 777 accident in SFO?

The Yoke had absolutely no relevance whatsoever at SFO. Or the other poster who said it was a misunderstanding of vertical modes. Sometimes I wonder if many people even have a real understanding of that incident.
 
Max Q
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RE: Will We Ever See A Boeing Sidestick?

Tue Dec 01, 2015 4:17 am

Quoting 747classic (Reply 4):
Seen the recent accidents (AF A330, etc), were the sidestick (dual input or input unnoticed by the other crewmember) is a contributing factor, it was in retrospect a very wise decission of Boeing to stick with the yoke on FBW aircraft.

I couldn't agree more.

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 23):
I think Airbus didn't want to give the pilots the false impression that control input equates to surface or thrust output. Same with the non-moving thrust levers. Looking at stick and thrust level position and inferring aircraft behaviour can easily lead you down the wrong path.

That's just a biased defense of the lack of feedback in the AB set up, every Pilot should know that making an input and getting a result are two different thing s regardless of type flown.

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 23):
As an example of discrepancy, the BA 777 that crashed at LHR was asking for increasing thrust, as evidenced by the thrust levers. But the engines were not delivering the demanded thrust.

That was also a very good example of the value of feedback and back driven autothrottles, it was a very obvious cue to the Pilots that something was drastically wrong as the airspeed kept decreasing despite the thrust levers steady advance producing no thrust increase. The AB fans will say you have the engine instruments for this but on the Boeing you have those indications AND very obvious tactile, highly visible cues on BOTH sides from the yokes and autothrottles.
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.


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Pihero
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RE: Will We Ever See A Boeing Sidestick?

Tue Dec 01, 2015 8:18 am

Quoting Max Q (Reply 26):
I couldn't agree more.

...and you agree with a very wrong premice..
But I'm not surprised, knowing your sentiments on the subject.

The OP makes the remark that in a few years Boeing planes will be the only ones without a sidestick.
Is thatr good or bad ? I couldn't care less, but in the end, the choice of the pilots will be for comfort / ease of operation and eventually flight safety.
In all these aspects, my preference goes to the 'Bus... and I've fdlown thousand of hours on BOTH types of cockpits, contrarily to some with just a biased opinion and no experience whatsoever of what they are arguing about.
A very good example is someone called *Captain Lim* on somer other site. : Used to be a rabid anti'Bus blogger... but then he reached the mature age of sixty and had to revert to medium haul... on the A320... He quickly discovered his erroneous ways and has now a preference to the 'Bus set up.

As a matter of fact, there will be a time marker in aviation next year : the A320 familt will pass the 737 in terms of active airliners.
A good preview of things to come... we will be at last leaving the Ford Trimotor era.

Quoting CALTECH (Reply 17):
Boeing already has a joystick, which is happier than a sidestick.

You know, I'd be happier with this set up :


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Allen Zhao



At least, it is far less cluttered ( but of course some like a big thingy between their legs... their choice )

Quoting CARST (Reply 8):
it is not bad that you can control the yoke with both hands in case you need your left hand (pilot / right hand FO) for something else (like grabbing the oxygen mask which is under the place where the sidesticks are installed).

A very unknowledgeable statement :
1/- leave the sidestick alone on a 'Bus and the airplane willl continue flying on its last controlled path... for hours if needed.
So leaving the side stick in order to grab an O2 mask is certainly not a problem.
And no, Airbus engineers probably have the greatest score on cockpit ergonomics. Placing the O2 mask there is a verry good idea.
2/- Didn't it occur to you that you'd have a bigger problem with a *joystick* on an airliner ?.. See the pic above.
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Max Q
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RE: Will We Ever See A Boeing Sidestick?

Tue Dec 01, 2015 9:23 am

Quoting Pihero (Reply 27):
...and you agree with a very wrong premice..
But I'm not surprised, knowing your sentiments on the subject.

Everyone has bias, including yourself, it's unavoidable but I don't agree it's a 'wrong premice'



AB took a route so different from Boeing for their own reasons, one of them was simply because they wanted
to be different, that's not necessarily always best.


I don't have a problem with sidesticks, if they are linked, can you honestly say there is an advantage to not doing
this ? apart from saving a few pounds of weight ?


And the advantage of autothrottles that are not back driven ? what is the point of that ?



Both of these features serve to isolate the Pilots from each other and the aircraft, and hard limits are a feature
i'll never agree with.



Anyway, best wishes.
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.


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BravoOne
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RE: Will We Ever See A Boeing Sidestick?

Tue Dec 01, 2015 11:03 am

The latest Air Asia 320 accident report would appear to lend some credence to who is doing what regarding side stick control inputs. Something that would perhaps not occur on the traditional Boeing design. Warning I know very very little about the Bus other than they make for a nice ride..for the most part.
 
Cubsrule
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RE: Will We Ever See A Boeing Sidestick?

Tue Dec 01, 2015 3:22 pm

Quoting Max Q (Reply 28):
I don't have a problem with sidesticks, if they are linked, can you honestly say there is an advantage to not doing this ? apart from saving a few pounds of weight ?

Is there some science that would suggest that the tactile feedback that would come from a linked sidestick is more effective than the auditory feedback that IIRC all FBW Airbii provide if both pilots actuate their sidesticks simultaneously? There is plenty of science suggesting that, at least in a general sense, sensory overload is not optimal.
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Pihero
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RE: Will We Ever See A Boeing Sidestick?

Tue Dec 01, 2015 3:44 pm

Quoting Max Q (Reply 28):
can you honestly say there is an advantage to not doing
this ? apart from saving a few pounds of weight ?

You're so stuck in the Ford Trimotor it's unreal. Fact is we dont really fly Airbus planes like an old airplane. Take for instance my favourite L-1011 x-wind approach method - forward side slip on the wind side - : fairly easy to perform ( just cross rudder and ailerons) and easy for the other guy to monitor.
Not possible any more and impossible top follow for PM. The flight càontrols have changed... which brings to mind the fact that there isn't a single simple way of piloting any airplane. Move the controls in order to achieve your objective is the rule.

There isanother good example of piloits - experieced captains _ failing to understand the flight controls the co-pilot was handling and which they monitored : give a wee bit of x-wind and lo! it never frails ! when they take over at MDA they get blown off course...
So please excuse me from not believing a single word on linked sticks... just another very weak argument.
...and finally, close to the ground or on dfifficult / busy situations, I have plenty of more importajnt tasks rather than contemplating the throttles movempents or my stick.

Quoting BravoOne (Reply 29):
the traditional Boeing design

Let's put this in perspective, shall we ?
The stick, joystick or central stick as known today was patented by Louis Blériot in...1908
The control column cum wheel was patented by Bréguet in 1910...
Both Frenchmen.
Hardly a Boeing invention.
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Vio
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RE: Will We Ever See A Boeing Sidestick?

Tue Dec 01, 2015 3:48 pm

Well, I can say that I'm a huge fan of the side-stick for one simple reason: "room".

With today's technology I can't understand why Boeing (and other manufacturers) decided to stick with this massive yoke. The side-stick is especially useful in smaller cockpits. I am by no means a big guy (175cm) and when I'm in the cockpit of my Lear 35A, the yoke is so close to me that I can barely do my paperwork due to lack of space. The (writing pad) with the paper work / Journey Log Book barely fits.

Even more important is the fact that the yoke obstructs a number of critical gauges and switches. I have to move my head sideways to be able to see the pressurization gauges, temp control, etc.

Please see below a pic of the LR35 that I fly:

http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa275/vludusan/DSC_2749.jpg

Sure, this may not be an issue when you fly a 777, but I still think it's a bit bulky and excessive.
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Florianopolis
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RE: Will We Ever See A Boeing Sidestick?

Tue Dec 01, 2015 4:11 pm

Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 30):
If both pilots try to control the aircraft at the same time, they will hear a very loud DUAL INPUT aural warning
Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 31):
sensory overload is not optimal.

The dual input voice warning was suppressed by the stall warning on the Air Asia accident. The only thing the pilots would have noticed (if they were looking) was the light, but the cockpit probably looked like a christmas tree at that point.
 
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AirPacific747
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RE: Will We Ever See A Boeing Sidestick?

Tue Dec 01, 2015 4:25 pm

Quoting Florianopolis (Reply 38):
The dual input voice warning was suppressed by the stall warning on the Air Asia accident. The only thing the pilots would have noticed (if they were looking) was the light, but the cockpit probably looked like a christmas tree at that point.

Still doesn't explain the reason for the inability to control the aircraft. As far as I can see, the captain should have pressed the takeover pushbutton and taken control at an early stage and clearly stated "my controls". It's down to poor training it seems.

And as you probably know, if both pilots give opposite inputs, the inputs will neutralize, so it's no different than two pilots trying to steer slaved yokes in opposite directions.
 
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CALTECH
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RE: Will We Ever See A Boeing Sidestick?

Tue Dec 01, 2015 6:10 pm

Quoting Pihero (Reply 27):
Quoting CALTECH (Reply 17):
Boeing already has a joystick, which is happier than a sidestick.
You know, I'd be happier with this set up :
At least, it is far less cluttered ( but of course some like a big thingy between their legs... their choice )

Ha ha, good one ! Do not understand why MDD went with the joystick in the center rather than a sidestick. Enjoyed and liked flying with the sidestick on the A-320 and the yokes on the 757 and 767 in the simulators. Though being in the left seat, but being right handed took a little bit to get used to, but not very long.

Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 30):
In my opinion, the Boeing yoke looks like it's more fun as you have a certain level of feedback, but it's not very practical considering how much we fly with autopilot on these days and also considering how much we generally work now.

Part of that lack of pilot training you referred to in a post earlier ? Lack of pilot training will not matter in a sidestick or yoke controlled aircraft, and lack of training has nothing to do with it being practical or not.

Quoting Pihero (Reply 34):
Let's put this in perspective, shall we ?
The stick, joystick or central stick as known today was patented by Louis Blériot in...1908
The control column cum wheel was patented by Bréguet in 1910...
Both Frenchmen.
Hardly a Boeing invention.

Good one but, Wright Brothers invented the sidestick in 1903, just saying to no one in particular, not a Airbus invention,

https://tomreeder.files.wordpress.com/2009/01/wright-flyer.jpg
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AirPacific747
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RE: Will We Ever See A Boeing Sidestick?

Tue Dec 01, 2015 6:16 pm

Quoting CALTECH (Reply 40):
Part of that lack of pilot training you referred to in a post earlier ? Lack of pilot training will not matter in a sidestick or yoke controlled aircraft, and lack of training has nothing to do with it being practical or not.

No, not part of lack of the lack of pilot training I mentioned earlier. In the Boeing as well as in the Airbus, the autopilot is engaged 95% of the time the aircraft is airborne.
 
thegman
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RE: Will We Ever See A Boeing Sidestick?

Tue Dec 01, 2015 11:02 pm

Quoting CALTECH (Reply 40):
Ha ha, good one ! Do not understand why MDD went with the joystick in the center rather than a sidestick. Enjoyed and liked flying with the sidestick on the A-320 and the yokes on the 757 and 767 in the simulators. Though being in the left seat, but being right handed took a little bit to get used to, but not very long.

They put it in the center because of the mechanical reversion system allows getting more leverage for elevator authority in the event of a power failure.
 
Pihero
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RE: Will We Ever See A Boeing Sidestick?

Wed Dec 02, 2015 12:09 am

Quoting CALTECH (Reply 40):
Wright Brothers invented the sidestick in 1903, just saying to no one in particular, not a Airbus invention,

1/- Never said A invented the side stick. GD did in the late seventies.
2/- yes, I have seen that sidestick-on-the-Flyer argument before. A bit specious as it only had a direct link to the forward pitch surfaces.
The reason for its existence was the need to use one's right hand to hang onto the frame so that one could use the hip cradle to operate the wing warp and the rudders together.

[Edited 2015-12-01 16:43:57]
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RetiredWeasel
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RE: Will We Ever See A Boeing Sidestick?

Wed Dec 02, 2015 12:49 am

Quoting Pihero (Reply 43):
1/- Never said A invented the side stick. GD did in the late seventies.

Burt Rutan's Varieze (Homebuilt/Experimental) used a sidestick in the mid 70's to control the canard and ailerons. GD was in the middle of the lightweight fighter competition, so don't know who first really designed/incorporated it.
 
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CALTECH
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RE: Will We Ever See A Boeing Sidestick?

Wed Dec 02, 2015 2:29 am

Quoting Pihero (Reply 43):
1/- Never said A invented the side stick. GD did in the late seventies.

Never posted that you did. Across the pond language nuances. As you pointed out, French designers came up with the other control designs. My comment about the sidestick being on the Wright Flyer is for those who seem to believe that it is a Airbus invention according to some posters.




"The electrical two-axis joystick was invented by C. B. Mirick at the United States Naval Research Laboratory (NRL) and patented in 1926, U.S. Patent no. 1,597,416".

Airbus did use a control yoke in the A-300/-310 series, it was good enough back then, but with the developement of the A-320, fly by wire and optimized sidestick controllers were developed saving on weight and maintenance.

The only thing I get a bit uncomfortable with, is the reliance on electrical power for so many systems especially on the 787 and 350. I know they are robust and complete failure chances miniscule, but with no hydraulics powering flght controls, just seems some redundacy is lost along the way.

Long ago, had a 727 coming in to MCI with generator problems. One generator on MEL, they lost another one during the flight. All electrical power tripped off. Manual reversion helped, flaps could be run down hydraulically, electrically is the backup mode, all flight controls still were powered. Think if one of these latest aircraft loses electrical power completely, though chances are remote, would be rough in these new aircraft. The RAT would help if it was not knocked out, but if the aircraft is far from a diversion field, just hope it never happens.

Older aircraft, lose hydraulics or electrics, still had the other.
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Max Q
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RE: Will We Ever See A Boeing Sidestick?

Wed Dec 02, 2015 7:44 am

Quoting Pihero (Reply 31):
You're so stuck in the Ford Trimotor it's unreal. Fact is we dont really fly Airbus planes like an old airplane. Take for instance my favourite L-1011 x-wind approach method - forward side slip on the wind side - : fairly easy to perform ( just cross rudder and ailerons) and easy for the other guy to monitor.
Not possible any more and impossible top follow for PM. The flight càontrols have changed...

Actually my favourite trimotor had three JT8D's



As far as technique, the forward slip can still be used on any Boeing aircraft, its only the AB flight control system that
makes it problematic, n'cest pas ?

Quoting Pihero (Reply 31):
So please excuse me from not believing a single word on linked sticks... just another very weak argument.

How would you know it's a weak argument ?


More specifically, what exactly do you have against the idea ?


Can you state any disadvantages whatsoever (from a Pilots point of view)



Gulfstream thinks its a very good idea and the way foreward, they are incorporating linked sidesticks with force feedback
on their new G500 / 600 Business jets, their opinion is the feedback provided by that and moving autothrottles are vital cues in Pilot awareness.



I understand your loyalty to the aircraft you are flying but I don't believe you are being open minded in this case.
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.


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Pihero
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RE: Will We Ever See A Boeing Sidestick?

Wed Dec 02, 2015 9:35 am

Quoting Max Q (Reply 43):
As far as technique, the forward slip can still be used on any Boeing aircraft, its only the AB flight control system that makes it problematic, n'cest pas ?

1/ - the exact formula is "n'est-ce pas?"
2/ - Typical of your style of argumentation : Did I ever say it was problematic ? I don't think so. It's just different, but very easy to do.

Quoting Max Q (Reply 43):

I understand your loyalty to the aircraft you are flying but I don't believe you are being open minded in this case.

I guess it is a matter of pots and kettles.

and I'd like to go back to this discussion with you when you have the experience.
Until then we're just going circles.
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AirPacific747
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RE: Will We Ever See A Boeing Sidestick?

Wed Dec 02, 2015 9:51 am

Quoting Max Q (Reply 43):

I understand your loyalty to the aircraft you are flying but I don't believe you are being open minded in this case.

Are you sure you're not talking to yourself?
 
Max Q
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RE: Will We Ever See A Boeing Sidestick?

Wed Dec 02, 2015 11:26 am

Quoting Pihero (Reply 44):
1/ - the exact formula is "n'est-ce pas?"

Round in circles is true but mutilating your language is something else.



Excusez-moi.
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.


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Pihero
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RE: Will We Ever See A Boeing Sidestick?

Thu Dec 03, 2015 12:05 am

Quoting Max Q (Reply 44):
Excusez-moi.

No problem... at least you tried another language.

Quoting CALTECH (Reply 40):
. My comment about the sidestick being on the Wright Flyer is for those who seem to believe that it is a Airbus invention according to some posters.

To be perfectly honest, it is the first use of a sidestick on an airliner, isn't it ?
One of these days, I'll open a thread on the sidestick history, which is quite fascinating.
As a matter of fact, the first aircraft equipped was... the X-15 !
There was a lot of research done in the seventie / eighties on the formula.
A few craft so equipped for test and research : The JF-101A ; The FD-104 SSCS ( side stick control system) ; The F-16A ; The NT-33A (side stick research program ) and of course on cables and rods the BD-5 and the VariEze.

Quoting CALTECH (Reply 40):
The only thing I get a bit uncomfortable with, is the reliance on electrical power for so many systems especially on the 787 and 350. I know they are robust and complete failure chances miniscule, but with no hydraulics powering flght controls, just seems some redundacy is lost along the way.

In many ways, these aircraft are a lot safer than the previous generations. The A380 can lose all electrics and all hydraulics and still remain flyable. Have a look at the A380 and the A350 flight control architecture, especially the use of EHAs and EBHAs ( electro hydraulic actuators and electrical back-up hydraulic actuator ).
There is a blurb by one Airbus engineer on the subject, I'll try and find it.
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thegman
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RE: Will We Ever See A Boeing Sidestick?

Thu Dec 03, 2015 1:38 am

Quoting Max Q (Reply 41):
As far as technique, the forward slip can still be used on any Boeing aircraft, its only the AB flight control system that
makes it problematic, n'cest pas ?

Wait, you can't do wing low opposite rudder in the Airbus? So you have to land in a crab then?
 
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AirPacific747
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RE: Will We Ever See A Boeing Sidestick?

Thu Dec 03, 2015 7:59 am

Quoting thegman (Reply 46):
Wait, you can't do wing low opposite rudder in the Airbus? So you have to land in a crab then?

Of course you can.
 
Pihero
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RE: Will We Ever See A Boeing Sidestick?

Thu Dec 03, 2015 8:11 am

Quoting thegman (Reply 46):
Wait, you can't do wing low opposite rudder in the Airbus? So you have to land in a crab then?

1/- It's called *forward slip*
2/- Answer to that question in post #42 : " It's just different, but very easy to do."

A careful reading prevents misconceptions ( my experience ).
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airmagnac
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RE: Will We Ever See A Boeing Sidestick?

Thu Dec 03, 2015 9:33 am

Quoting CALTECH (Reply 40):
especially on the 787 and 350. I know they are robust and complete failure chances miniscule, but with no hydraulics powering flght controls, just seems some redundacy is lost along the way.

 

Flight control muscle power for both aircraft is provided by hydraulics.
787 has 3 hydraulic circuits : http://www.boeing.com/commercial/aer...rticles/qtr_4_07/article_02_3.html
A380 & A350 have 2 hydraulic circuits with electrical power providing a 3d power supply

Naturally, there is still a need for some low power electric supply for the brains of the system

787 only removed the pneumatic power distribution. A380/A350 removed 1 hydraulic distribution circuit. But as Pihero says, all in all these aircraft are much more robust than previous generation designs.
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