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BravoOne
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Stall Recovery

Mon Nov 30, 2015 9:06 pm

Here is the latest on Stall and Stick Pusher Training from the FAA. A few some might recall this was a hot topic a few months back


120-109A - Stall Prevention and Recovery Training
 
hivue
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RE: Stall Recovery

Mon Nov 30, 2015 10:29 pm

This is the Age of the Internet. Here is a link:

http://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/m.../Advisory_Circular/AC_120-109A.pdf
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BravoOne
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RE: Stall Recovery

Tue Dec 01, 2015 10:56 am

Thanks hivue, I was in a big rush when I posted that. The new Air Asia accident report may have some serious correlation with this subject matter.
 
hivue
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RE: Stall Recovery

Tue Dec 01, 2015 3:40 pm

Quoting BravoOne (Reply 2):
The new Air Asia accident report may have some serious correlation with this subject matter.

Yeah, it sure sounds like it.
"You're sitting. In a chair. In the SKY!!" ~ Louis C.K.
 
BravoOne
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RE: Stall Recovery

Tue Dec 01, 2015 5:47 pm

Quoting hivue (Reply 3):
Yeah, it sure sounds like it.

The bad news is that both Boeing and Airbus are pushing back with regards to this training. Sounds like the $$ are getting in the way of good judgement.
 
Woodreau
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RE: Stall Recovery

Tue Dec 01, 2015 9:33 pm

are there approach to stalls and steep turns in Boeing type ratings?

I was surprised I didn't have to demonstrate clean, takeoff, and landing stalls and steep turns for my 320 type rating
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longhauler
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RE: Stall Recovery

Tue Dec 01, 2015 11:09 pm

When the indications of the cause of AF447 started to become apparent, training standards in Canada changed.

While "approach to stall" in various configurations was sufficient, it no longer was. Starting about two years ago, all transport pilots had to perform full stall recoveries in clean, take-off and landing configurations. Further, "recovery from unusual attitudes" also had to be performed. (Steep turns, spiral dives, near inverted, etc.)

It was a bit of a grind for our A320/330 crews as most of the normal protections had to be shut off just to get into these attitudes!

For me, in the B767, it was the first time in 30 years of flying transport aircraft that I had ever seen a full stall. I was humbly astounded how very much altitude was lost in the recovery. Also, I was astounded just how far your thumb had to be up your ass to not recognize the chain of events that got you into that condition to begin with ... and how many warnings you had to ignore just to get stalled! (Not just aural and stick shaker ... but also classic stall warnings we saw in a Cessna 150!)

Quoting Woodreau (Reply 5):

I was surprised I didn't have to demonstrate clean, takeoff, and landing stalls and steep turns for my 320 type rating

In Canada you would. It would be a part of your MT (Manoeuvres Training) and MTV (Manoeuvres Training Validation).
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Starlionblue
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RE: Stall Recovery

Tue Dec 01, 2015 11:36 pm

Quoting longhauler (Reply 6):
While "approach to stall" in various configurations was sufficient, it no longer was. Starting about two years ago, all transport pilots had to perform full stall recoveries in clean, take-off and landing configurations. Further, "recovery from unusual attitudes" also had to be performed. (Steep turns, spiral dives, near inverted, etc.)

It was a bit of a grind for our A320/330 crews as most of the normal protections had to be shut off just to get into these attitudes!

Had to do this in 330 training as well. Not all as part of the checkride but definitely all at some point in the training. The entire first sim was just elementary handling, mostly in direct law, looking at basic pitch and power, stalls in various attitudes, steep turns, the effect of power application. Very interesting stuff.

During the checkride, recovery from Alpha-prot and from overspeed had to be demonstrated.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 6):
Also, I was astounded just how far your thumb had to be up your ass to not recognize the chain of events that got you into that condition to begin with ... and how many warnings you had to ignore just to get stalled! (Not just aural and stick shaker ... but also classic stall warnings we saw in a Cessna 150!)

   That was my experience as well, but I guess if you're in a turbulent situation close to max altitude things happen faster than in calm weather in the sim.
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Passedv1
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RE: Stall Recovery

Wed Dec 02, 2015 10:13 am

In 2018ish airlines in the US airlines are going to have to start training stalls to the aerodynamic break. Up until now, the training was only to the buffet/pusher.
 
wingscrubber
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RE: Stall Recovery

Wed Dec 02, 2015 10:49 pm

The air asia accident bears striking parallels with AF447. This is a problem directly related to flight crew identification of, and appropriate flying in, alternate law. Airbus drivers are taught that they can fly full back stick in an emergency, that Airbus' are un-stallable, which simply isn't the case. No mechanical coupling between sidesticks is contributory to this, preventing the captain and FO from cross-comparing flight control inputs when acting under duress. (They cannot supervise each other)

Here's some material addressing the technique;
http://www.airbus.com/support/public...tx_maglisting_pi1%5BdocID%5D=41133

Fundamentally, teaching pilots to fly only within the envelope of safeguards which then suddenly vanish when an airspeed is lost, or a circuit breaker is pulled, is itself unsafe. The fallibility of the flight control safeguards, coupled with the warm-fuzzy psychological conditioning of the state of mind of the pilot, failing to recognise when 'safe mode' is disengaged, is causing accidents.

Ether, Airbus drivers need recurrent training in identification of, and correct flying in direct law(i.e. go practice some stalls 'n spins in a Cessna 152), or the Airbus fleet must be operated entirely in direct law like Boeings such that inadvertant inducing of stalls by flying in 'easy mode' can't happen. Or both...??

The disconnect between the DO-178 design methodology of the flight control software and the human factors aspect of training the pilots is leading to accidents.

Don't take this post as a conviction against Airbus - Boeing has similar challenges with their autothrottles... but I do fundamentally believe that 'envelope protection' teaches the pilot that he doesn't need to protect the envelope because the computer is doing it, which is dangerous. I hope and presume that the vast majority of the pilot community already understand this, but there are always going to be some cases of murphy's law.
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KELPkid
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RE: Stall Recovery

Wed Dec 02, 2015 11:02 pm

Quoting longhauler (Reply 6):
For me, in the B767, it was the first time in 30 years of flying transport aircraft that I had ever seen a full stall. I was humbly astounded how very much altitude was lost in the recovery. Also, I was astounded just how far your thumb had to be up your ass to not recognize the chain of events that got you into that condition to begin with ... and how many warnings you had to ignore just to get stalled! (Not just aural and stick shaker ... but also classic stall warnings we saw in a Cessna 150!)

Were the stalls performed in the sim or an actual aircraft?
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longhauler
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RE: Stall Recovery

Thu Dec 03, 2015 1:09 am

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 10):
Were the stalls performed in the sim or an actual aircraft?

All of the manoeuvres I mentioned including stalls would be performed in the simulator. Very little training, if any, is performed in an actual aircraft.

Very early in jet transport training, before simulators gained any credibility, airlines did all training in the aircraft ... and sadly, a lot of airlines lost a lot of pilots/aircraft during these training exercises. Air Canada too lost a DC-8 in a training excercise at YOW, with the loss of all on board.

For that reason, the only training done in the aircraft is usually line oriented line indoctrination. In fact, starting about 20 years ago with the advances in flight simulation, very often the first time a pilot ever touches an actual aircraft after being training on a new type ... there will be passengers on board!
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BravoOne
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RE: Stall Recovery

Thu Dec 03, 2015 3:49 pm

Quoting longhauler (Reply 11):
For that reason, the only training done in the aircraft is usually line oriented line indoctrination. In fact, starting about 20 years ago with the advances in flight simulation, very often the first time a pilot ever touches an actual aircraft after being training on a new type ... there will be passengers on board!

Thank God for the Level C and D Full Flight Simulators. Everything you have said is spot on and don't think many US airlines escaped training accidents.
 
rfields5421
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RE: Stall Recovery

Thu Dec 03, 2015 4:03 pm

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 10):
Were the stalls performed in the sim or an actual aircraft?

Such training in an actual large transport aircraft would be unsafe / dangerous.

There isn't time for a trainee to get into the required unusual situation, allow the trainee to work the problem, and an instructor to always be able to take over and save the aircraft.

Back in the first threads of AF447, there was a lot of talk about the programming of simulators and how it could not simulate full stalls, unusual attitudes, etc. Developing programming for the big simulators for such training was one of the priorities coming out of the AF447 working groups.
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alasizon
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RE: Stall Recovery

Thu Dec 03, 2015 4:33 pm

What I don't get here is why pilots are only taught to the buffer. For my PPL, it was to the fully developed stall and CPL was to the buffer and these were in actual planes. Being in a simulator, why not teach all the way through?
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BravoOne
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RE: Stall Recovery

Thu Dec 03, 2015 5:36 pm

Quoting alasizon (Reply 14):
Being in a simulator, why not teach all the way through?

Your not paying attention  The current crop of simulators will not emulated the full stall characteristics of airplanes. That change has been mandated by the FAA/ICAO/EASA and should be in effect by early 2019. See post #2.

Simulator tech packages are really expensive and about to get a lot more expensive over the next few years.
 
KELPkid
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RE: Stall Recovery

Thu Dec 03, 2015 8:29 pm

Quoting alasizon (Reply 14):





What I don't get here is why pilots are only taught to the buffer. For my PPL, it was to the fully developed stall and CPL was to the buffer and these were in actual planes. Being in a simulator, why not teach all the way through?

When I got my instrument (at a 141 school), I was shocked when, on a progress check, I was asked to do a power on stall under the hood (I had practiced several power off stalls with a recovery with my instructor). I did it, but I think I might have dropped a wing in the process   Definitely did not recover on heading...but amazingly I passed the progress check (in a real 172).
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alasizon
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RE: Stall Recovery

Fri Dec 04, 2015 4:33 pm

Quoting BravoOne (Reply 15):

Certainly they would emulate some of the characteristics though right?
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BravoOne
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RE: Stall Recovery

Fri Dec 04, 2015 5:04 pm

Quoting alasizon (Reply 17):
Quoting alasizon (Reply 17):
Certainly they would emulate some of the characteristics though right?

Not sure that I understand your question but I think we will see a much more robust stall/bounced landing/upset program as we move forward. Much of this data is extrapolated from actual flight testing but obviously there is a limit. In addition the costs associated with this data recovery and programing is out of sight. At the most recent Boeing users conference that cost of simulator data packages was one of the most discussed topics and complaints. No matter whose sim you buy the mfg has to purchase these sim data packages from Boeing flight Service and guess what the number 1 profit center is within Boeing Flight Service?

This enhancement has been mandated by Congress so it does have some teeth in it.
 
alasizon
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RE: Stall Recovery

Fri Dec 04, 2015 5:37 pm

Quoting BravoOne (Reply 18):

My understanding is that the sim currently can't completely emulate every characteristic of a fully developed stall but that it can emulate part of it with the existing data packages. Does the data included with each sim currently only cover up to the stall but not during it? I would imagine that the basic aerodynamic portions of the sim are still accurate even in a fully developed stall which would at least give some training as some is better than none.

I completely concur that the training will be far more robust than what currently exists but I guess I'm trying to figure out if the sims are currently capable of something in between.
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PGNCS
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RE: Stall Recovery

Fri Dec 04, 2015 5:58 pm

Quoting wingscrubber (Reply 9):
Airbus drivers are taught that they can fly full back stick in an emergency, that Airbus' are un-stallable, which simply isn't the case

As a longtime Airbus pilot, instructor and examiner you are NOT correct. Airbus instruction emphasizes at great length the differences in protections and stabilities in different situations and in all laws. Whether more hands-on training is needed in laws other than Normal Law (and if so exactly what that training should consist of) is certainly a hot issue and there is little doubt that some training programs do and have done better jobs in this area than others, but your claim is a completely inaccurate generalization.

Quoting wingscrubber (Reply 9):
Ether, Airbus drivers need recurrent training in identification of, and correct flying in direct law(i.e. go practice some stalls 'n spins in a Cessna 152), or the Airbus fleet must be operated entirely in direct law like Boeings such that inadvertant inducing of stalls by flying in 'easy mode' can't happen. Or both...??

Neither of these is sensible. A C-152 has very different flight characteristics than a transport category aircraft in all regimes and transferability of training and negative training are very real problems.

Quoting alasizon (Reply 14):
Being in a simulator, why not teach all the way through?
Quoting alasizon (Reply 17):
Certainly they would emulate some of the characteristics though right?

Because the simulator models are not accurate and have not been required to be; avoiding negative training is a very real concern for those of us who actually do training and curriculum development. When the sims catch up, expect more training as it will be mandated.

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